Coming out of the closet (not a gay thing)

[Nick Lo]

Hey guys!
I'm new here.
I'm thinking of starting this brand new club!

Not trying to imitate Asia's Baji World Order, but I think he's got a good idea.
I'd like to call the club 'the Hungabees'.
This club will be for all of us secret, Hung Gar lovers.
We'll all understand each other's situation:
as lovers, but not practisioners, of the great art of Hung Gar.
And we can kind of act like a support group.

The first person I'd like to ask to join me by name is Kung Lek.
How bout it Kung?
I know you post on most of the Hung Gar related threads...why not join? and wear your Hungabee-ness like a badge?

[David Jamieson]

hahahaha.

Actually, many would have difficulty seeing the difference between the Black tiger style I practice and Hung Ga.

Unless of course, they practiced Hung Gar or Black Tiger. Then they would readily see and feel the differences.

Sets are longer in black tiger and stances are deeper.

Besides, I'm already "affiliated" with a group. :D And, what makes you think I don't know some Hung Kyun? ;)

peace

[Nick Lo]

Whew, been busy lately.

You bring up a good point. Just about anybody can learn Hung Gar off of one of Wing Lam's tapes these days.

i just figured it would help out since your hung gar responses usually say (implicitly), "i dont know anything about this, but i'm gonna post anyway..."

After seein' the pics on your website, i figured you could use the support.

PS- is your sifu related to Wing Lam? 'Cuz your gangster story looks awful similar.

[David Jamieson]

gangster story? hmmmmn.

Sifu is not related by blood to Kwong Wing Lam, but the founder of the Bak Sil Lum system he teaches is the same founder of the system that Kwong Wing Lam and Gene Ching teaches.

Be it known that Kyu Yu Cheong was a very generous teacher who imparted the teachings of Bak Sil Lum to many hundreds perhaps thousands of students. SiGung of Bak Sil Lum is located in Calgary and while Si Fu finished his studies with SiGung of Sil Lum, KunTao and Kempo, he studied with Si Gung of Bak Sil Lum in the same city.

As for SiGung of Black Tiger and Hung Ga, I do not know anything beyond what Sifu has told me which is as much as he will impart to anybody. Seeing as it is likely you are in an environment where you are unable to comprehend such things as concerns regarding triads and more heavy handed tongs, I cannot expect you to understand such things. It doesn't concern me about your background.

As for Sifu or Si Gung or the Toisan District Master's students,It is not your concern, lest you should actually undertake to put forth the hard work and effort it takes to learn some of the teachings in these styles.

I speak respectfully to all styles. Anyone who has attained sifu-hood is worthy of respect also. I mean "real" sifu-hood and not just instructorship. I see them diferently. A true Si Fu is more than just "teacher".

An open mind is like an empty book with many pages to be filled.

peace

Also: -'anybody can learn Hung Ga from a video tape'-, perhaps they can begin to understand it's superficial essence, but without a foundation and without some form of correction, a video tape cannot impart the very fine points of a style. It is not a recommended starting point in anyones martial training, it is a terrific supplement and a tool of learning for those who already have at least 5 or ten years of training in.

[Nick Lo]

Well, looks like i've been misunderstood again.
I'm not so good at words, sorry you're offended.
Your reasoning behind following your sifu's word about his lineage sounds unusual to me, but maybe I'm just weird.
If my sifu held secrets about his lineage i might be a little concerned.

Your rash response indicates an insecurity, which is the whole reason I came up with the Hungabee idea in the first place.

PS - I better go tell the Tang family of Chinatown, Hawaii's I I Tong that they aren't heavy handed enough.

Also: Are you saying you understand the depth and the intricacies of Hung Gar as well?

[David Jamieson]

I don't think I misunderstand your "intent" at all Nik lo.

Nor do I feel "insecure" in the knowledge that has been imparted to me.

I do not think that adhereing to the direction of ones sifu is a denotation of being suspect either.

You provoke with the "wannabe" statements, and you expect a light response. Your note shows a clear intent to insult me and as well is insulting to my teacher and his teacher(s).

Clever underhanded positioning vis a vis an anonymous forum is the more questionable act here.

I make no claims to anything beyond what I have been taught and have knowledge of.

You, on the other hand make assumptions beyond your understanding or direct knowledge.
It was you who targeted me with your malice in your original post.

You expected me to react in some other way perhaps? I invest too much time into study and practice to have nothing to say about your comments.

"it's a joke" doesn't cut it when you are dealing directly with an individual.

My true identity is known to many here, you can know it too by a visit to my personal website. I'm not hard to find or difficult to communicate with in any way.

So, only you can prevent "misunderstandings" :D
Consider this an opportunity to take this conversation in a more positive direction if you wish.

peace

[Nick Lo]

It's not like you'd gung sau anywayz, so what's the big deal about my identity?

You post on hung gar topics all the time, but you yourself admit to no verifiable hung gar background: ie. neither your prior posts nor your website, no matter HOW cryptically you try to imply your hung gar connection.

You always claim that 'black tiger is similar to hung gar' or 'black tiger has better techniques and lower stances'... who the heck are you to speak?

Jow Gar-ists like good ole Mysteri have a much more legitimate claim to an art 'similar to hung gar' yet he never pretends to know half as much as you claim, nor speak on half as many topics

Hungabee was just an idea to allow people like us, who have no hung gar authority, to speak on hung gar topics without causing an uproar.

If you're pi$$ed off or take something as an attack, that really is your problem. You can blame me for causing misunderstandings all you want, but a smart man would look internally.

[David Jamieson]

Well, thank you nick lo for explaining your true agenda, which apparently is that you are "ticked" at me for some reason known only to yourself and the horse that you sit on.

why not just post "hey kung lek why don't you shut up and go somewhere else because i don't think you know anything".

or maybe you could post that i am a fraud and that i have never been to a kung fu class in my life and therefor i shouldn't be allowed to post here.

your protestations are duly noted and filed.
see you around the boards and no hard feelings.

5

peace

[jon]

Nick Lo
Im a student of Hung Ga, maybe you would like some background on why the two schools are actualy considered sister arts?

The first student of Black Tiger to take the art public was orginaly a student of Wong Kai Ying [ father of WFH ] he was also a well accomplished student.
He began learning the black tiger after being beaten by an old monk. After he had finished his study of Black Tiger he went back to Wong Kai Ying and showed him what he learnt. Wong Kai Ying was very impressed and many believe he actualy learnt some of the black tiger off his student.
The two arts have a long history together as the black tiger founder was orginaly a student of Hung, meaning BT still bears Hungs seeds.
To say the two arts are not similar is quite short sighted, they even look similar on a purely asthetic level. Ever looked at black tiger? Notice the stances, the power generation, the postures?
Same seeds different tree.
There is also a long tradition within black tiger of learning that system along with Hung. They usualy start with Hung and then move into Black Tiger so its compleatly possible [if not probable] for Kung Lek to have had quite a lot of exposure to Hung.
The method may be a bit different and the forms my vary but the concepts are still similar.

Its very odd for you to target Kung Lek, ive actualy never heard him profess to being a Hung Ga student and there is no reason he should not be able to share any knowledge on the system that he does have, if anyone wants they can always correct him.

[Nick Lo]

Kung Lek said:
Well, thank you nick lo for explaining your true agenda, which apparently is that you are "ticked" at me for some reason known only to yourself and the horse that you sit on.

Agenda? I know I'm supposed to get my nails and hair done on Saturday, other than that I didn't know I had plans. Besides, we don't got much horses here bruddah, you gotta go to tha big island for that.

Kungster also said:
why not just post "hey kung lek why don't you shut up and go somewhere else because i don't think you know anything".

Cuz believe it or not we don't hate you; as a result we're already keeping our mouths shut over that fake-ass, stolen-from-wing-lam, un-verifiable lineage you've put out there for everyone to see. It's just a request to stop talking, or at least stop pretending to be an authority.

Kungster closed with:
your protestations are duly noted and filed.
see you around the boards and no hard feelings.

Wow, that's awful big of you. Maybe we can share a cup of cappucino once I get off this horsey.

Jon let loose with:
Nick Lo
Im a student of Hung Ga, maybe you would like some background on why the two schools are actualy considered sister arts?

Sure.... and while you're at it, why don't you give us some history on that fake-ass, mish-mash, poor-excuse-for-hung-gar that Awad be teaching?

Oh yah and only gung gee after 5 years? You must be as retarded as you sound

i saw your post on the phoenix eyes in fu hok. That really illustrated how stupid you are considering that it only has two. You made it sound like they are all over the place. After five years i would think that you would know that, but i guess yer stuck on Gung Gee...

[Nick Lo]

Maybe you might want some info on WHY they are different...

These are the most OBVIOUS differences, but then again, only two phoenix eyes are obvious, so i'll elaborate-

Hung Gar never locks the elbow, while the Hak Fu Mun does. This would be a significant technical difference since this would eliminate the sinking bridge that is common in hung gar.

Black Tiger was named after So Hak Fu, one of the ten tigers. So Hak Fu learned from a mystery monk.

The animal shapes found in Hak Fu Mun are different from the shapes found in hung gar. The shapes in Hak Fu Mun are: dragon, tiger, leapord, crane, lion, elephant, horse, monkey, and a mystical animal that basically has no english translation, its also like a horse.

Hak Fu Mun is considered a sub-style to southern shaolin, not an advanced version.

Hope this clarifies some things...

[jon]

Thanks for your personal insults your obviously still stuck in that nasty patch of thinking you always know best...

"why don't you give us some history on that fake-ass, mish-mash, poor-excuse-for-hung-gar that Awad be teaching? "
* Sure thing
Lum Jo - YC Wong - Collin Chao - J Awad Any more linage questions? Whats yours then?
You insult my sifu for no reason at all, your obviously an insecure little git who belives there teacher will fight for them.
Come over and try and say that to us personaly and see how far you get...

"Oh yah and only gung gee after 5 years? You must be as retarded as you sound"
* NO not only Gung Gee, im a closed door student and as such im expected to compleatly finish something before i move on. My basics are proberly more advanced than your pathetic flowery excuses for a form. Ive also learnt many short sets, the short stick and Lau Ga fist. Again if you wish to try my hands please feel free. From the way you post i can tell your coward already...
Hung Hei Gwuns entire knowledge was poured into Gung Gee and it was his advanced form. He must have been retared to, OR your a moron!

"i saw your post on the phoenix eyes in fu hok. That really illustrated how stupid you are considering that it only has two. You made it sound like they are all over the place. After five years i would think that you would know that, but i guess yer stuck on Gung Gee..."
* Actualy you dim witted slug, my Hung Ga [this is all in the thread] is not only though strait canton Hung but also though a village variant and my Sigung was trained in SPM. As such we have a strong influence of pheonix eye in our system. We dont always use it but we are certainly capable of putting them in, the power generation is different and so are the striking mechanics.
Just becouse you dont use them and havent been taught them doesnt mean i cant.

I would be VERY interesting in hearing what linage your though Nick Lo, who refers constantly to himself\herself as 'we'.
If its Buck Sam Kong in Hawai im gonna laugh myself stupid:p

Your nothing but a pawn, if you had half the courage of your convictions you would not care less about what others do.
Obviously your scared of other Hung practioners and think your learning the 'real deal' keep at it. Maybe one day after you have put in your ten years in horse stance and learnt all your flowery forms your sifu may actualy show you how to apply your movements to combat. Untill then you be content with the knowledge that your obviously supperiour to all.

My money says your a 14 yo girl who actualy has a crush on Kung Lek and this is your way of getting him to speak to you.

[jon]

Im no authority but lets review shall we...

"Hung Gar never locks the elbow, while the Hak Fu Mun does. This would be a significant technical difference since this would eliminate the sinking bridge that is common in hung gar."
* I dont know if Fu Jow Pai[there new name keep up] does infact lock the elbow but either way if they do on certain movements thats hardly enough to classify as a ground breaking difference. More like a technical variation on certain movements.

"Black Tiger was named after So Hak Fu, one of the ten tigers. So Hak Fu learned from a mystery monk. "
*Totaly incorrect. Hak Fu just means black tiger its no ones name:rolleyes:
This is the history as according to Grandmaster Wai Hong, unless you would like to dispute him!
"The system was renamed Fu Jow Pai of Hoy Hong Temple, by the late grandmaster WONG BIL HONG, in memory of his sifu, an unnamed monk who lived in the Hoy Hong temple in Guangdong China. Prior to studying the black tiger system, Wong Bil Hong was a master of the Hung Ga system in his own right, having studied under the renound Wong Kai Ying and then under his son Wong Fai Hung in Guangdong China"

"The animal shapes found in Hak Fu Mun are different from the shapes found in hung gar. The shapes in Hak Fu Mun are: dragon, tiger, leapord, crane, lion, elephant, horse, monkey, and a mystical animal that basically has no english translation, its also like a horse."
* It has a few sets which include more animals, the style STILL bears a strong Hung Ga resemblence and you cant dispute there link no matter how hard you try...

"Hak Fu Mun is considered a sub-style to southern shaolin, not an advanced version"
* Not advanced according to who huh?
There have been sets named 'black tiger' in many arts and there is even more than one version of Black Tiger, there is also a northern varient.
I dont think you have the first clue what your on about.
Go back to class and continue your research.

[Nick Lo]

Jon

"Thanks for your personal insults your obviously still stuck in that nasty patch of thinking you always know best..."

I am the one that came up with the Hungabees, so if anything I always know worst. ;)

"You insult my sifu for no reason at all, your obviously an insecure little git who belives there teacher will fight for them.
Come over and try and say that to us personaly and see how far you get..."

What if I told you I had no teacher?
And even if I did, he wouldn’t be doing the fighting for me.
Nevertheless, are you sure you want to be begging for gung saus from people you know nothing about?

"My basics are proberly more advanced than your pathetic flowery excuses for a form. Ive also learnt many short sets, the short stick and Lau Ga fist. Again if you wish to try my hands please feel free. From the way you post i can tell your coward already..."

You know what they said in elementary school about what happens when you assume?
…
After 5 years of completely basic stuff, I’d HOPE your basics were pretty good.
The only flowery forms I do involve de-flowering pretty little wahines.

"Actualy you dim witted slug, my Hung Ga [this is all in the thread] is not only though strait canton Hung but also though a village variant and my Sigung was trained in SPM. As such we have a strong influence of pheonix eye in our system. We dont always use it but we are certainly capable of putting them in, the power generation is different and so are the striking mechanics."

So you have village influences, so i think this would make it a mish mash, dont you think?

"I would be VERY interesting in hearing what linage your though Nick Lo, who refers constantly to himself\herself as 'we'.
If its Buck Sam Kong in Hawai im gonna laugh myself stupid"

I constantly refer to myself as 'we' about as constantly as you pop off with intelligent replies... a couple times does not a constant make

And what if i do study under Buck Sam Kong? You got a problem with him? He's in your lineage apparently.

Besides, if I were so inclined to insult intelligence, I’d think all that laughing you’re threatening to do would be futile….

"Your nothing but a pawn, if you had half the courage of your convictions you would not care less about what others do."

Since when does having courage in one's convictions equate to allowing outsiders to speak with authority on internal ****e, let alone be mistaken for being credible

"Obviously your scared of other Hung practioners and think your learning the 'real deal' keep at it."

I'm not scared of other Hung practisioners, I'm just scared that scandalous folks will be incorrectly assumed to be authentic Hung players by folks who don't know any better.
If anything *I* never claimed to be 'real deal'.

"Maybe one day after you have put in your ten years in horse stance and learnt all your flowery forms your sifu may actualy show you how to apply your movements to combat. Untill then you be content with the knowledge that your obviously supperiour to all."

Who's to say I haven't done ten years in a horse?
Also, who says I don't know how to fight, just because I type something you don't like on a message board?
You're making some dangerous assumptions if you ask me.

“supperiour to all”? Where I come from, that means I’m “dinner” for everyone… in either case, who’s the one that came up with the idea for the Hungabees and who’s the first to include himself as one?

"My money says your a 14 yo girl who actualy has a crush on Kung Lek and this is your way of getting him to speak to you."

Cute Kungy already left the convo if you weren’t reading. I’m still here, however… I’ve got posters of him on my walls, and I want him to sign my training bra.

[Nick Lo]

"Im no authority but lets review shall we..."

Bout d@mn time you admitted that fact.

"* I dont know if Fu Jow Pai[there new name keep up] does infact lock the elbow but either way if they do on certain movements thats hardly enough to classify as a ground breaking difference. More like a technical variation on certain movements."

You are such a tard man. Fu Jow Pai and Hak Fu Mun are two totally different things. Fu Jow Pai is Wai Hongs, plain and simple. No matter what story is behind it.

The elbow locking illustrates the sinking bridge you moron. This is like the ding kiu in hung gar you twit. I guess you didn't go over that in your inner door training. More than likely you are still studying the various intricacies of the ready position in gung gee.

"Black Tiger was named after So Hak Fu, one of the ten tigers. So Hak Fu learned from a mystery monk. "
*Totaly incorrect. Hak Fu just means black tiger its no ones name
This is the history as according to Grandmaster Wai Hong, unless you would like to dispute him!"

Wow, you really got me there…learn something new everyday.
I didn’t know you and good ole Wai Hong were so tight.

"I dont think you have the first clue what your on about.
Go back to class and continue your research."

I would, but the sign on the front of my library says, “no slugs allowed”…. Seeing as how I’m “dimwitted” to boot, I doubt I’d be allowed in.

On a final note….

C'mon man, this is kung lek you're sticking up for... are you sure you want to bet your whole reputation, putting it all on the line, over a guy who's lineage chart leaves that much to be desired?

Probly too late now anyway; but that's gotta be on my list of one of the dumbest excuses to thrust yourself in the spotlight.

[jon]

Actualy Nick you started this insulting me, i was posting what i know on Black Tigers relations with Hung Ga you saw fit to turn it into a personal slanging match.

"I am the one that came up with the Hungabees, so if anything I always know worst."
* What you came up with was a clear attempt at a troll. Every Hung practioner including me ignored it untill you started insulting someone whom i respect.

"What if I told you I had no teacher?
And even if I did, he wouldn’t be doing the fighting for me."
* Im not surprised you have no teacher, i would not wish to be associated with your attitude either.

"Nevertheless, are you sure you want to be begging for gung saus from people you know nothing about? "
* I didnt beg you to Gung Sau... I offered you the oppontunity to speak those same insults infront of my face. Stragely i dont fear people who are to gutless to openly state who they are.
Im at the chinese gardens in Darling Harbour sydney every day, come find me if you wish!

"After 5 years of completely basic stuff, I’d HOPE your basics were pretty good. "
* For a start this is just into my fifth year now and ive taken several breaks in that time. Secondly if you think Gung Gee is basic your more clueless than i at first thought. Why not see what Lum Jo has to say about the set? You tell me off about assumptions yet you make MANY of your own. You dont know my level or ability and you dont know what im capable of. Does it not seem odd to you that i openly state who i am and where to find me? I dont KNOW your in Hawai, for all i know you could be down the street...

"The only flowery forms I do involve de-flowering pretty little wahines. "
* As i suspected, the only people you can beat up are small girls who you get drunk in night clubs and then abuse... TOPS

"So you have village influences, so i think this would make it a mish mash, dont you think?"
* Fine its a mish mash, one that comes though YC Wong and and a family strain of Hung Ga. Ill take my mish mash over your mouth boxing any day of the week. Now why not state who you are and what your linage is huh??? No, you wont becouse your scared it will get back to your instructor and you will be in the dog house.
Thats the only wise thing you have done this thread...

"I constantly refer to myself as 'we' about as constantly as you pop off with intelligent replies... a couple times does not a constant make"
* Ok then fine try this... WHO IS WE??? A couple of times or six hundred, who is WE???? Who do you claim to be representing?

"And what if i do study under Buck Sam Kong? You got a problem with him? He's in your lineage apparently"
*Buck Sam Kong was a student of Lum Jo before moving to Hawai he did not finish his apprentiship before he left, NO he has nothing to do what so ever with my linage...
His books are known as being inaccurate and Lum Jo himself has stated his knowledge of Hung Ga was imcompleate when the books were writen. Maybe thats why your precious Fu Hok only has 2 pheonix eye?
I dont mind the man myself but i would be very ammused if his students were attempting to put down other schools based on linage.

"Besides, if I were so inclined to insult intelligence, I’d think all that laughing you’re threatening to do would be futile…. "
* You cant insult intelligence becouse your to busy trying to come up with unfounded accusations. My laughing will continue as long as you continue to post. Personaly i find your posturing hillarious:D

"Since when does having courage in one's convictions equate to allowing outsiders to speak with authority on internal ****e, let alone be mistaken for being credible "
* If you had any guts or respect you would have simply posted to correct him. Instead you make a pathetic attempt to silence him and in the process come off looking like a foolish jelous kid. I dont care its your call.

"C'mon man, this is kung lek you're sticking up for... are you sure you want to bet your whole reputation, putting it all on the line, over a guy who's lineage chart leaves that much to be desired? "
* This is great:D How am i putting anything on the line? All i have stated his a well known history of Black Tiger kung fu and have stated that anyone [not just Kung Lek] can express anything they want on a public forum. You act like you need a license to post on Hung. You mistake my sticking up for kung lek, im rebutting you, im not sticking up for him. There is a difference.

"Who's to say I haven't done ten years in a horse?"
* Me, if you had even spent ten years in training you would have more of a sence of respect for your fellow hung practioners. You would also not see fit to go publicly attacking other well known schools. This is known as martial moral [Wu Dip] its commenly taught in Hung Ga, though its concepts can take a while. Obviously you dont have any moral therefore i dont think you have suffient training either.

"Also, who says I don't know how to fight, just because I type something you don't like on a message board?"
* Ive never met a good fighter who had to resort to cowardly insults and not revealing there name. I guess its 'possible' there are a few good ones but i think most are upfront about who they are and where there from. So yeah i would doubt you fight to well either, more likely you would ask someone else to show for you.

"You're making some dangerous assumptions if you ask me."
* Maybe, Chinese Gardens Darling Harbour every day before 12 and after 2. My names really Jon and my sifu's are both in my profile. If your really a good Hung practioner it would be a pleasure to be beaten by you and learn from the experience. That is what Gung Sau is all about after all isnt it?

"“supperiour to all”? Where I come from, that means I’m “dinner” for everyone… in either case, who’s the one that came up with the idea for the Hungabees and who’s the first to include himself as one? "
* You knew well no one would want to join it was just a sly shot at getting Kung Lek to talk about his Hung Ga knowledge, didnt work. I would call that a pretty conceted act personaly.

"Cute Kungy already left the convo if you weren’t reading. I’m still here, however… I’ve got posters of him on my walls, and I want him to sign my training bra."
* Yeah so what exactly are you proving now then if Kung Lek has left?

[Nick Lo]

HAHAHAHAAHA, You seriously are a dolt. If you are the example of one of Awads inner door students, i would send a little girl to gung sau with you any day of the week, hehehe.

Where do i begin....

First off, "Wu Dip" is butterfly you ninny. I think you were referring to MO DUK, or Wu De in mandarin. You crack me up!! If you are so seriously hung up on this WU DIP, why are you badmouthing Buck Sam Kong? It seems like all that WU DIP PRODUCING horse stance didn't do you any good now did it?

Buck Sam Kong has done more to promote Hung Gar in a realistic light than you have. All you have shown is that you have spent 5 years wasting your time.

"what are you proving now that Kung Lek is gone"

same thing I always proved, those of us not qualified to speak on Hung Gar, need to wear that fact like a badge. Although the more you speak about hung gar, the more everyone can see that you are a blithering inner door idiot. As soon as you speak, you can be judged by the standard. With your case my friend, you are seriously sub-standard.

Pathetic, just pathetic...

[jon]

"Im no authority but lets review shall we..."
Bout d@mn time you admitted that fact.
* Find me any post ive made where i claim to be an authority and ill give you a cookie? Im also always totaly open to correction.

"You are such a tard man. Fu Jow Pai and Hak Fu Mun are two totally different things. Fu Jow Pai is Wai Hongs, plain and simple. No matter what story is behind it. "
* Are you saying you dont agree with GM Wai Hongs version? [hehe carefull now]

"The elbow locking illustrates the sinking bridge you moron. This is like the ding kiu in hung gar you twit."
*Dihng Kiu is a strait bridge with the palms forward and the focuss is on creating a steady frame not on sinking, If your point is that the elbow doesnt lock then so what? As i say if bt lock there elbows on certain techniques what exactly does that prove?

"More than likely you are still studying the various intricacies of the ready position in gung gee. "
* Ive finished Gung Gee actualy [except for a spit and polish] but strangely enough there is enough in the opening segments of gung gee to teach the average student to a profiencent level. Then again you actualy need an instructor who can show you the variations and the differing angles and methods.
Still im sure your very happy learning your forms devoid of true application, remember the way to be skilled in Hung Ga is to spend so long in stance you magicaly get good:rolleyes:

"Wow, you really got me there…learn something new everyday.
I didn’t know you and good ole Wai Hong were so tight. "
* I have nothing to do with the man, i would still love to hear you contradict him. I dont think you have the guts to disagree with him directly, especialy not under your real name hence this big charade.

" I would, but the sign on the front of my library says, “no slugs allowed”…. Seeing as how I’m “dimwitted” to boot, I doubt I’d be allowed in. "
* You said it...

Then onto my all time favorite...
"On a final note….
C'mon man, this is kung lek you're sticking up for... are you sure you want to bet your whole reputation, putting it all on the line, over a guy who's lineage chart leaves that much to be desired?
Probly too late now anyway; but that's gotta be on my list of one of the dumbest excuses to thrust yourself in the spotlight."
* How am i betting my reputation on anything, your feeble attempt to scare me into ceasing to post does nothing for you. Im rebutting you im not sticking up for Kung Lek there is a big difference.
Your arguement with Kung Lek is your own, you saw fit to take issue with me and ive responded in kind.
I dont like having public slanging matches with fellow practioners of my own art so i would appreciate it if you would contact me privately if you have any other slanders to make. If not fine but know your only hurting a bond many of us have worked hard to cultivate.
I have no wish to continue this you have failed to bring up any relevence to your assertion that Hung and black tiger are unrelated and you have failed to get kung lek into a linage debate with you.
You have jumped on my case for no reason and for that i can only say 'Very well do as you wish' there is no secret as to who i am and what i do, i take on that responsibility. Just dont ask me to respect you becouse i wont.
If you are indeed a Hung student your a disgrace imho:(

[jon]

"You seriously are a dolt. If you are the example of one of Awads inner door students, i would send a little girl to gung sau with you any day of the week, hehehe. "
*Why not come yourself if your so sure?
If you had the first indication of what an inner door student was you wouldnt be wasting your time trying to tell me i dont understand my own system. You also know nothing of how we train or even what we train. Where exactly do you think the average 'inner door' student should be after five years? Bearing in mind only 2 of those have been private.

"First off, "Wu Dip" is butterfly you ninny. I think you were referring to MO DUK, or Wu De in mandarin."
* Fine, i dont know chinese and i was recalling from memory and obviously confused two terms from another language how increadibly silly of me:rolleyes:

"why are you badmouthing Buck Sam Kong?"
* Hold up! When did i badmouth him? Would you care to dispute what ive written? Had Buck Sam Kong finished his apprenticship before he moved country? we both know the answer to this...
I also stated i personaly respect the man for the exact reasons you have given and i would not think to compare myself to his level. My comment regarded his 'students' complaining about 'other' linages.

"All you have shown is that you have spent 5 years wasting your time."
* Again you know nothing of me nor my abiltys. Think what you like, ill continue to know what i know.

"same thing I always proved, those of us not qualified to speak on Hung Gar, need to wear that fact like a badge."
* Find me any post ive claimed to be an authority and your point may be proven. I ALWAYS state im a student and i never attempt to fabricate my knowledge, im also always open to correction.
If you had read any of my posts you would know this, if you comment was regarding kung lek, it doesnt matter becouse he has left now remember?
If i cannot post on my own system how am i expected to further my knowledge?

"Although the more you speak about hung gar, the more everyone can see that you are a blithering inner door idiot. As soon as you speak, you can be judged by the standard. With your case my friend, you are seriously sub-standard."
* You dont even have the guts to state your name or teacher so what by your standards does that make you?
If you knew nothing of Hung like you claim you would have no clue as to the validity of my statements.
I post here a lot and many other Hung practioners view this board and none of them have a problem with me or my knowledge. Infact they have all been very resepectfull.
Judge all you like i could care a lot less for your opinion, the only people im interested in impressing are the ones i know to be real.

You cant list your name, your instructor or your linage.
You call me pathetic? Who are you to call me anything huh? Why should i care less for your opinion?
I directly address every point you raise and you dodge even open questions and answer what you wish. You are in no place to cast stones and i could care a lot less for your attitude.
I said it before and ill happily say it again...
If indeed your a cma practioner your a disgrace.
Try answering some simple questions about yourself and YOUR right to speak.
Who is your sifu? who is 'we'? why do feel the need to put down black tiger and kung lek? Why did you respond to an informative post with an attack? Why dont you have the guts to come out and admit who you are?
Why not state where you can be found? I have!

[Nick Lo]

Well seeing as that you can't even tell the difference between Fu Jow Pai, Hak Fu Mun, and Hung Gar- i dont see how i can really give you an argument that would be convincing and satisfy you. Its like trying to show a color blind person how to see color. Do you know the characters for Fu Jow Pai and Hak Fu Mun? Do you know anything about the Sup Fu?


If you think Ding Kiu is straight, it seems like your inner door training missed some things i'm afraid. Ooops, so much for five years of training. Let me lay some knowledge on ya as to a posture variation. I'm hoping you know the posture called Ding Gum Kiu, if not this is futile. Go read the poem for the technique and you'll be amazed as to how this is applied. There are actually two poems for it. Go read them and tell me where it says go straight.

I'm glad that you are showing good WU DIP by not arguing with me anymore. Good ole Wu Dip Jon!!

In all honesty, you are posturing every time you post. If you have noticed, you have not once said anything technical, referring back to actual knowledge. You have focused on my mudslinging, which of course is natural, but you haven't corrected anything i have said on a technical level. Why dont you lay some inner door knowledge on me bra?

Seriously man, this is funny. You will pubically support somebody that has NO ACTUAL hung knowledge, like Kung Lek, but you'll publically deface Buck Sam Kong (who actually has more skill than Kungster)? Tisk tisk... And yes you slyly badmouthed him by bringin up his training time, as if it wasn't enough. Then you covered it up. You trained two years private? So that makes you equals with Buck Sam Kong i guess huh? Or are you claiming that you are better in some way because earlier his two years weren't enough?

Then like a dipsheeeyit you bring Lam Jo into this like he's your friggin buddy. Can you publically speak for the Lam lineage? Or is this more stuff you are speaking about that you are not an authority on? You are just as bad as Kung Lek. "I dont know what i'm talking about, but i'll post anyway!!"

Why does the Kong family visit the Lam family then? Donald Hamby is under Buck Sam Kong and he has trained both with Lam Chum Fai and Lam Jo. Things that make you go, "HMMMMMMM?" Eddie Lane is also a Buck Sam Kong guy, he also has trained with the Lam family.

No matter how you want to take it, Buck Sam Kong is in your lineage, work it out ninny. Or should i say "Wanker" so you understand? The reason why you lay it on the line is you are publically speaking out on Buck Sam Kong when folks CAN LOOK UP YOUR TEACHER AND YOU, WHICH MAKES IT A FAMILY STATEMENT. You did all this because of a fake sifu up in Canada, for shame i tell you.

So are you Yup Mun? Do you speak for yourself, or your family?

Remember the poems grasshopper. I eagerly await your reply...

[jon]

When in a corner just change the subject huh?

For a start im trained by a westener and as such im not familiar with many of the Chinese terms you use.
You still refuse to state who you are and your linage so i see no need for me to respond to your questions further.
You can say nothing to detract from my personal abilitys or that of my sifu nor can you say i have slandered Buck Sam Kong.
My reasons for not getting technical should be quite obvious, im not [as i have stated] an authority on the subject and my understanding is limited. Im a student i dont need to justify my learning to you.

Can you publically speak for the Lam lineage?
* I have never once tried, i asked you what Lam Jo's opinion was on Gung Gee Fuk Fu. If your as close as your hinting you should already know that answer.

"No matter how you want to take it, Buck Sam Kong is in your lineage, work it out ninny."
* No he has never taught any of MY teachers so he is not part of MY linage. He is certainly a student under Lum Jo and as such shares Lum Jo linage.

"CAN LOOK UP YOUR TEACHER AND YOU, WHICH MAKES IT A FAMILY STATEMENT. You did all this because of a fake sifu up in Canada, for shame i tell you.
So are you Yup Mun? Do you speak for yourself, or your family? "
* This is really confusing, I have never tried to make statements that were deragtory to Buck Sam Kong, i stated his students should not be concerned with the linages of other schools. Go tell him im sure he will be mortified.
I have no idea what sifu your refering to in canada im from Australia and i also have no idea who Yup Mun is.
I speak for myself i dont make any aspersions to speaking on behalf of my linage or teacher.

Your way off the rails and behaving like a regular lunatic, you seem to have knowledge of Hung so im not going to keep insulting you personaly as i wont insult a fellow practioner from my own art.
You should also know if your a practioner that the 12 bridges are considered higher learning and are not to be gone into detail in public, your questions are clearly bait. They are also not taught fully untill Tit Sing so my knowledge would of course not be up to the task of cross examination on the finer points.
I say this becouse you try to put down my knowledge and im just kindly letting you know im simply not responding due to your intent.
I have no idea why you saw fit to attack me in this way Nick, i have only tried to give you information on Black Tiger becouse at the time you were professing to know nothing of the system.
Clearly you have some 'issues' that need to be resolved but i fear your training is not helping as all its done is made you aggressive.
This was an interesting meeting 'Nick' ill keep this in mind when im talking with others.
Jon

P.S Regarding Ding Kiu the position of the arms is strait[not locked before you jump] i did not say that you GO strait. The movement relates to steadyness and structure. I told you i wont go into detail on this here, so that is all ill say on the matter.

[jon]

Nothing i have stated about Buck Sam Kong is anything other than commen knowledge. I have full respect for the man and am totaly aware that he has continued his training well beyond his initial phase. My point was that a Buck Sam Kong student should not be so critical of another students linage, particualy when we have many things in commen. Buck Sam Kong and YC Wong are both students of Lum Jo and both of the same era by insulting my sifu you insult his teachers which are in turn some of your own.

My comments regarding his books is also commen knowledge as is the fact that his sets differ from many other linages. This is also easily available on the net and was all attained by me personaly.
My intension has never been to insult Master Buck Sam Kong, my intension has only been to prove that his students shouldnt feel the need to harp on training time or linage.

You attempt to make enemys out of brothers and i wont sit by for that. Say what you want, i wont be part of it...

[Nick Lo]

Jon I first read your reply before your p.s. and your side note, at that point it was clear to me that you had mo duk and that you realized this conversation was not going in the direction intended. Unlike you, who wishes to put all things to the public, by this i mean your name, sifu's lineage etc, not everybody wishes to do this.

This is not a hidden or sinister thing, but sometimes people look at a name and lineage and automatically think something. Judging a book by its cover so to speak. There are a few on here that have great knowledge yet say nothing about their lineage or there skill this is also mo duk, you have to read the words to see their skill.

You have stated you are yut mun or an inner door student. This carries a heavy burden, which i am now sure you are soon going to familiarize yourself with. If you were aware of this position, your words and intent would be quite different.

So people that post often are usually considered learned, but in all actuality, many have posted complete and utter crap. But yet they are still considered knowledgeable. So now that brings us to our present situation. You post your lineage, who you are, where you train, etc etc because you think you are right. Then some nobody like me gets on and I'm thought of to be complete crap (and a "lunatic") because I don't come running to every Hung Gar thread with my pants down (ala Kung Lek). So just because I don't post my location doesn't mean that I'm being a coward. Its because I choose not to be in the spotlight.

So this is where I'm coming from. You chimed in on a post that was none of your business. I know it's a public forum and all, but you could have easily just disregarded it. You thought you were going to shed some light on the black tiger situation, but in all actuality you didn't did you? You spoke about Fu Jow Pai, which ISN'T Hak Fu Mun. Two totally different things my friend.

Now yeah I do admit that I attacked you outright, but it was for good reason. What you said had no bearing and was actually INCORRECT. Now take this for what it is, because I'm no longer trying to insult you, but I'm trying to correct you. This thread was for those not of the Hung Gar clan. This was meant to be an example of how when you spout off about sheeyit you don't know about, it makes you look like a dipstick. You are a part of Hung Gar so you had no reason to step in, you came in and stated things you knew little about which you have done time and time again. So now I go back to the point of you being an inner door student. It is clear to me that you have yet to learn what it means to be an inner door student.

You spoke of Buck Sam Kong as from first hand experience, although it was just your opinion. The stuff you mentioned about him is not common knowledge and in fact, his fu hok isn't that far off from the other lineages. It is YOUR lineage that is different and actually has some deviations from standard Gar, which is ok because you have village influences. No harm, no foul.

So now when you state something like that, it is usually assumed to be first hand knowledge. It is clear to me, and again i don't wish to be seen as putting you down, but in chinese cirlces what one says in the fashion you have stated, is taken as coming from your experience, and to say it about one who is related to your lineage (since you are a part of the Lam family, HE IS PART OF YOUR LINEAGE). Lineage is a serious thing and as an inner door disciple, you must put your lineage before you AT ALL TIMES.

To clarify ,and i will make this perfectly clear to all, i am not in any way, shape, or form related to Buck Sam Kong, and i find it strange you would bring his name into this and his experience, while i did not.

I was actually taken back by your writing as to not insulting me because i appear to be hung gar. You don't know that either, you assume too much and talk even more. If you want to broaden your skill then ask. Don't appear to be with transmissions you have yet to learn. Mo Duk…

Your point on ding kiu sau was clear to me, yet you said nothing, then through a p.s. in and what you have said is on just about every hung gar site. I asked you to read the poem on transmission not what you have written, so why did you do this? If you don't know the poems then say so, you need not imply this is all you will say because sup yee kiu sau is taboo. I could read about what you have written on any site.

This has now gone on far enough, as i said, on post before you added to it, you were clear, then you tried to cover it up. There was no need for this, then you put a side note up on what you have written on Buck Sam Kong.

Again it is clear you don't understand responsibility of spoken words from the Chinese perspective. You said what you said as if you had first hand knowledge. What one hears or reads is in general poor instruction, transmission is better

I've actually heard very far fetched things about Hung Gar and could quote them till I was blue in the face, but that doesn't make them true. So when you wrote as you did initially it was your words, you now clarify with this "note", but it should not have been
written in the first place.

Ok, I've rambled on long enough. It was not my intention to have my beef with you Jon. You are a legit Hung Gar guy, while the OTHER PERSON this was directed at isn't. Walk away with this- I'm not your enemy and I have not tried to make any enemies within the Hung Gar clan. If you notice, all the elder hung gar folks that are quite knowledgeable, all stayed away from this thread. Silence sometimes presents the clearest answer my friend. You saw a door and you walked through it. Well my friend, sometimes it is not our place to walk into certain rooms just because we can.

Keep it real and hang loose bra…

As for Kung Lek, SHUT THE F*#K up when it comes to Hung Gar!!!

[David Jamieson]

Well. aren't we testy now?

I will continue to post about Hung Kyun and it's flavours across many styles. You have clearly revealed that you are an angry person.

Therefore, you are of no consequence.
by all means continue your rant.

As for crossing hands, you seem to have a predilection for throwing the term around. Is there some way you could perhaps reveal who you are? Maybe you could show us your lineage chart and pehaps you could validate it?

This is a very strange thread. Nik lo, you are a bit of a fudge stirrer. I hope you simmer down and get some perspective.

peace

[jon]

The change in tone is appreciated but you still misunderstand many important facts.
My status as a closed door student is different to what you may refer to as a 'bai see', im taught 'extra' application to movements privately and am also taught with the intension of one day passing the system on. Hence im taught things that are not taught in class but this does not bring with it any title bearing or linage responsibility. My linage is nothing compared to many others and we can all freely admit that.
My sifu does not speak chinese, I dont have these 'classics' you speak of and honestly ive never heard of such a thing. I have not gotten Lam Sai Wings books as they are extreamly hard to find over here. If i found one i would happily buy it.
As you could proberly tell i regreted bringing up Buck Sam Kong almost imediately as I personaly have a lot of respect for him. He is mearly the most public figure in Hawai that i personaly know of.
My reasons for posting on Black Tiger was becouse you were saying you did not see a connection, i was mearly trying to state there was one. I never attempted to say i was an authority on that subject either.
Your comments regarding the 'lurkers' are of course valid but they also are of no consequence to me. Im interested in the here and now and im no secret. I dont need to impress faceless Hung experts out there from different linages around the world.
Several known ones have occasionaly chipped in to offer me the odd tip bit of information and im always gratefull when they do.
I can respect others not wanting to speak out but just becouse your information does not match mine does not make me wrong.
Many linages as you know have totaly different versions of all of the pillar forms, can we say which is pure? We can only acknowledge the seeds of the system and understand the way it works in combat. Argueing over different interpretations of the bridges and how many phoenix eyes are in Fuk Hok will do neither of us any good.

"You thought you were going to shed some light on the black tiger situation, but in all actuality you didn't did you?"
* This is a poor excuse for an attack on my credability and sifu, you could have mearly pointed out that you knew of the history and your motive was else where, i would have left the thread.

"you came in and stated things you knew little about which you have done time and time again"
* This interested me, im very carefull when i speak about Hung Ga to state im only a student and im open to correction. I also dont talk about the higher levels of it becouse i simply dont know about them. I have only posted relating to my own experiences and occasionaly realy the odd myth although again when i do im clear on the fact its a myth.
For someone saying they have no connection to Hung Ga i would not mind knowing how your in a position to even judge my information as incorrect in the first place.

"This thread was for those not of the Hung Gar clan."
* You could have fooled me considering your orginal premice.

There are a few on here that have great knowledge yet say nothing about their lineage or there skill this is also mo duk, you have to read the words to see their skill.
* I have to disagree, for me remaining silent is humble, it does equate to being moral. Especialy not when its used as a viel from which to launch personal attacks. I also disagree on reading words equaling skill. I could sit here and pretend quite easily to know about Bagua I have the classics for that system and train in it full time, i also have a net connection and pleanty of access to information, i could do a great job of quoting other people and pretending to know about different linages and practices. I dont becouse im only a junior student and have little practical knowledge of the system, just a great deal of theoritical knowledge. That to me is moral.
Skill with the hands is martial skill, skill with words is just that...

"It is clear to me that you have yet to learn what it means to be an inner door student. "
* As i say i feel our understanding on this may differ, im no inheritor to any throne. Im just taught things most are not and taught much more stringently in terms of application.

"It is YOUR lineage that is different and actually has some deviations from standard Gar, which is ok because you have village influences. No harm, no foul. "
* I never had a problem with MY linage, you did... You also blatently insulted me when i told you i had village Hung in my system. My sigung was trained by his father before going to YC Wong for the authodox system. This is very similar to the way many other Hung Ga masters came though the mainstream system. Its also the reason my training has taken longer, ive learnt many short sets from the five animals that are not part of Canton Hung Ga. I dont see this as somehow watering down of my system, to me its just acknowleging properly its roots.

"I was actually taken back by your writing as to not insulting me because i appear to be hung gar."
* I Dont like insulting anyone, especialy someone who appears to have a little experience in similar circles. This does not mean im shying away it only means i did not want to drag the name of my own system and elders though the mud. Ive seen the results of that before.

"I'm not your enemy and I have not tried to make any enemies within the Hung Gar clan.'
* Im of the Hung Ga clan and you have insulted me personaly and my linage and sifu.
You also tried to make me insult memebers of my own system, i dont appreciate that and for me that says a lot for your personality. I dont know what system you study but your charactor leaves a lot to be disired

Silence sometimes presents the clearest answer my friend. You saw a door and you walked through it. Well my friend, sometimes it is not our place to walk into certain rooms just because we can.
* Your motive could have all the merit in the world but your method was poor and insulting.

I dont want to keep this up, this has been nothing but a massive headache and has made me seriously question why i bother trying to post on this forum, i only do what i do to try and help others to find out more about the system i love. I also post becouse i enjoy finding out about other systems. For you this seems to be breaking some ancient code, for me its just trying to give a little for what i have recived.
You harp a lot on my talking of mu duk but in fact all you have done was launch a massive slander against another practioner [me] simply for getting in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Im sorry you think so little of my background and personal accomplishment but i still have what i have and im not sorry for what ive been given.
All the best Nick i hope your happy with the result you have accomplished.

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

Nick Lo, u should b very cautious of the sifus u insult especially when there of similiar linege. U could end up crossing paths, 4 eg. u could both b visiting sigung Lam Jos kwoon or a Hung get 2gether & beleive me sifu Joseph Awad isnt someone u want to cross hands with or fuk wit.(Is that y u didnt give a name & school) If u dont beleive me if u come to oz u can c 4 urself or why dont u ask sifu Kong of J. Awad or his sifu Collin Chao or even if u ever get to c sifu Y.C. Wong. When arguing with jon or anyone else why bring up his sifu when u dont even know who they r. Thats very childish & disrespectfull not only to jons linege but ur own ur sifu & all of Hung, u r arguing with jon not his sifu.
Dont think im sticking up 4 jon cause i dont even know him but 1 of my mates does train with sifu Awad a humble & incredible teacher & martial artist.
About him also adding Village Hung y not its still hung, its not something he made up out of thin air. Sifu Kwong Wing Lam would proberbly put the 2 Hungs 2gether even if he doesnt teach that way i bet if he fought he would, it will give him a larger arsenal.
Also do u expect to learn a ancient & amazing form like Gung Gee Fuk Fu in 1 to 2 yrs.(U kidding me or what) Besides needing 2 master the basics & learn some sub sets,sets,conditioning & qigong u must prove urself of good character & show that u deserve this old & DEADLY form with hard work & dedication.
Black Tiger a sub set of shaolin.:rolleyes: (now whos retarted)
BT is a complete system of combat, very ferocious & brutal just like hung ga. Wong Kei Ying learned BT from 1 of his brothers of the Ten Tigers & either Kei Ying taught his son or So Hark Fu did.
Either way BT must have been a advanced art or why would the Wongs waste their time learning & adding it to their Hung. Also what i heard was Wong Kei Ying was a part of the Black Tiger Association.(Hark Fu Moon) Old school closed door art.

1 more thing u said "the fake ass, mish mash, poor excuse 4 hung gar that awad b teaching" :mad: :rolleyes:

Sifu J Awad has studied a few arts but never tried 2 b a sifu of 10 m. arts, but add 2 his mastery of Hung ga.
Didnt Wong Fei Hung & his dad MISH MASH as u called it, 4 eg. Black Tiger, Drunken, Tid Sin Kuen, Mo Ying Geuk, Lama Ga, Village Hung, Element boxing...
Lam Sai Wing also "mish mashed" with some Lau Ga, weapons & maybe even some Choy Lee Fut which i read he did. :cool:

Just a thought B. Tiger could have been added into the creation of Choy Lee Fut, they have those same 10 animals & they luv their tiger moves. CLF's founder Chan Heung also "mish mashed."

[jon]

Thank you kindly for your words regarding my sifu, he really is an ammazing man and i owe him a lot.
Your opionion is a appreciated.