That Wiccai Witch Guy

[PhoenixPangaryk]

I received an e-mail from a forum member last night regarding the thread about Wiccai. After subsequently spending half-an-hour reviewing all sorts of comments about this admittedly new style of martial art, and all sorts of presumptions about myself, its founder, I've decided to respond.

I wasn't shocked so much as disappointed that the thread rapidly spiralled into a diatribe of negative judgments about myself and my theology. Ultimately, it became a thread about satanism.

Rather than engage in discussion within the context of that thread -- to which my children have access -- I will attempt to briefly address what Wiccai is, who I am and a little about why I have created this style. I will not engage in useless words in defense of my faith or person with reference to the things that were said in the last forum. Although I found some of the postings interesting, for the most part, they were based on a combination of ignorance, intolerance and lack of research.

I am not out to convert anyone, nor change anyone's religious path. I am not a demon-worshipper. I do not believe in (let alone worship) Satan, and I have never harmed a baby. Nor would I tolerate anyone else doing anything of the sort. Any one of my five children can testify to that.

Nor have I ever charged a single person money for teaching this particular style. Some day I may open a school, but until such time, I am happy with the way things are. I respect most spiritual and martial disciplines and I have a vivid comprehension that many paths lead to the same end.

History of Wiccai. An initiate of Tibetan Buddhism, I was exposed to five animal training, and excelled at it. I trained about 8-10 hours a day for 3 years. Gradually, I altered my faith to Wicca. Once I did so, things changed drastically for me. I stopped training for several months because I thought I might be disrespecting the temple by doing Hung Gar through the eyes of a Wiccan. I started a long search to find a Wiccan martial art system -- new or old -- and I found none. You're right, Wiccai is not an ancient style. Nor have I ever claimed it to be. Ultimately, I adapted my prior martial arts training to suit my own personal needs, and subsequently created Wiccai.

A few comments were made suggesting that what I do is watered-down Hung Gar, and some sort of *******ization of the Shaolin temple. Having studied Buddhism and Native traditions, I worked well with animal familiars and totems. It is important to note that many ancient and new systems were directly influenced by the Shaolin temple. No doubt most of the current day grappling and kung fu styles are offshoots of the Temple; do your research. Does this mean they are watered down or illegitimate? Of course not. A martial art system with a sound spiritual core is fullfilling.

If all styles had to come up with their own moves, the martial arts would be in trouble. A lot of what I do looks Shaolin, of course; I still practice Hung Gar. I still do dragon, snake, cat and bird. But in the context of Wiccai, I no longer use crane exclusively: I adapt the same principle movements to create raven, crow, owl and phoenix. I also use stag, scorpion, wolverine, bear, etc. I work with animal totemry primary to augment Wiccai as a healing and personal health system, and secondarily as a self-defense style. Each bird I mentioned may execute a techinique that looks similar to the others, but it is the application of its shen or spirit that drives the intentions and will behind the technique. This is where the five elements also come into the picture.

I work with animals because it makes sense to me to connect to the earth in this way. Although I focus on the basics like punching, kicking, striking, rolling, grappling, breathing etc. it is up to each individual to choose the animals they will work with. I do not force anyone to work with the animals I have chosen for myself. Who taught the masters? It is a lot more than just sitting and watching animals fight. You can read some of my threads at dragonslist.com if you want further clarification of what I am talking about.

I look at fighting a little bit differently than most. I lived on the streets for several years ( not in the way described in the previous thread; I have never been classified as a "hippie" and I do not wear dreadlocks. I do not dye my hair black and I do not wear a black trenchcoat - sorry) and witnessed the maiming of many and the killing of one. I have chosen to learn from these experiences, and therefore I take the fighting arts very seriously. UFC is great and it has its place, however, most bloody street fights have no rules at all.

Have you ever seen another man bite chunks of flesh off of another man's face? Rip his ear clean off his head? Stick his finger into the eye socket all the way down to the knuckle? I was involved in (and witnessed) fights like this in my youth, and they scared the hell out of me. But I train this way also. Believe me, if I found an intruder in any one of my children's bedrooms, I would react, fiercely. The animals of Hung Gar and Wiccai will be there with me, punching, grappling, biting, eye-gouging with the sole intention of diffusing and eliminating the danger.

In Wiccai, as with any respectable martial arts system, personal responsibility is paramount. Clear will and intentions directing the force used are crucial. Wiccai is an alternative for pagans or anyone else wanting to learn about working with the animals that they are most connected with. it is a flexible system and it is not meant for everyone - and like I said, I do not seek converts and I do not have a school. I am simply writing a manuscript that deals with Wiccai and several years of magic and healing with animals.

As far as Wicca, if your interested, their are many good internet sites and books. My personal e-mail is in my bio. If you want to know more about me, Wiccai or just discuss animal theory and strategies, feel free.

If you want to make attempts at connecting me and my faith to satan, baby killing and the like, please save your breath. I will not engage in such useless, ignorant activity.

Phoenix Pangaryk

[jon]

I just read your post it was very interesting, i have respect for what you do and i hope you didnt think otherwise.
I hope that you read my comments on you in a favorable light. I never accused your Hung Ga of being 'watered down' so i hope that was not directed at me.
Still im sad that the thread turned out the way it did as well, which is why i ceased to post in it.
I respect you phoenix as a fellow martial artist, your religion has no bearing on my view of you. I have no problem with what you do and have respect for anyone who can adapt there art to better suit there lifestyle and enviorment.
Dont let peoples opinion on this board bother you, we are all very skilled at shooting down something we know very little about:rolleyes:
Respects and regards
Jon


P.S I post under the title Lonetiger over at Dragonlist.

[Leonidas]

Sorry my thread about Wicca turned into a thread about Satanism, i gots nothing against witches. Sorry I dissed your style too. I can respect what your doing. It seems pretty cool now that you explain it.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

don't you think 3 years training is pretty limited, regardless of how many hours per day, to go off and create your own style?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

oh .. and im not a satanist, but i do sacrafice animals in the name of richard simmons.

[David Jamieson]

I will not engage in useless words in defense of my faith or person with reference to the things that were said in the last forum.

Didn't you just do that?

Sorry man, you want to create something then create it from a clean slate.

If you "borrow" something then give full credit for it not half credit or a mention, full credit.

peace

[Shin]

I don't know about you guys, but I always love posts where people describe themselves as masters.

I also love it when people make all kinds of assumptions about what fights we have and haven't been in, while preaching to us without preaching.

I further love it when I talk to people and they say "I tried this religion and it didn't work for me, so I switched to this one for a while, but still didn't feel right, so eventually I found x, and now I'm going to tell you all about it." Since all religions teach essentially the same thing at the core, the problem tends not to lie with the religions if you ask me.

[Ray Pina]

Hey man, believe and worship what and how you like. I would never be so ignorant to confuse wicca with satanism, I don't even confuse true satanism with the worship of satan, but rather a guilt free pursuit to ones desires. Hey, too each their own.

BUT, when it comes to martial arts, that's another matter.

These are my, not concerns, because I don't really care and wish you the best, but questions:

1)Being the inventor of a style, do you go by great grandmaster?

2) Are you basing a new style on a style you have studied for 3 years, no matter how much time spent? the first year, even training 10 hours a day, will be spent training at a low understanding. So, that gives you 2 years of training at a mid-level. Not exactly grandmaster material in ym eyes.

3) This will **** people off, but as a martial artist, my first concrn is not being in touch with my animal totems or connecting to the earth (though I strive to be connected to the Tao while remaining dissociated to everyone and free) but to fighting skills.

4) Lastly, if you were a great martial artists (which you should be to be claiming the founder of s syatem), I would think you would have respect for your past lineage: who did you learn what from? Are you a hung gar player, a long fist white crane (that's Tibetan Buddhist gung fu), what? You must have a background. 5 animals is very vague?

As a martial artists, we here a lot of claims. One can never fully back it up because we can not match hands online, just want a little more depth to why we should take Wicca-fu seriously. Did you make forms? Do you train your students with full power? What is your knowledge of internal? Yes, I have a lot of questions.

[Budokan]

When guys like Funakoshi and Wang Lang and the like "invented" their own styles were there other people who said, "What gives you the right?"

And it's a fair question, come to think of it. But how long must you train and what qualifications must you *really* have before you can put together a new style and have it accepted? Just wondering...

[Yung Apprentice]

Hey I did two years of TKD. Maybe I should create MY own style..........

[Qi dup]

PhoenixPangaryk, it was good of you to respond in such a reasonable way. Your style sounds interesting. Would you say it's a system?


"I do not force anyone to work with the animals I have chosen for myself. Who taught the masters?"

ummmm, masters?


With all due respect i have to go with EvolutionFist's questions and comments. I'm not trying to start an arguement or disrespect your style. But they are reasonable questions, don't you agree?

[Chang Style Novice]

just a lark, no need for anyone to take this personally...

Austin Five Vegetables Quan is a fighting system based on the martial spirit of Horseradish (root), Broccoli (flower), Rhubarb (leaf), Cashew (seed) and Tomato (fruit.) After mastering the Five Vegetables, adepts in AFVQ combine the five into one seamless style known as "Salad Bar Do." What follows is a breif description of each of the Five Fighting Vegetables.

Horseradish - Humble, yet firey. Connected to the earth. Evasive and difficult to detect.

Broccoli - When broccoli is chopped, each smaller piece resembles the broccoli plant as a whole. Therefore, when fighting in the broccoli fist manner, each movement is similar up and down the scale of size. This integrated technique allows for tremendous fajing.

Rhubarb - As Rhubarb is poisonous when raw, yet sweet and delicious when cooked, the Rhubarb Fist is designed to take advantage of the element of surprise. When a wary opponent faces a Rhubarb practitioner the R.P. will switch to a soft, deceptive style that leaves (no pun intened) 'false' openings which close shut behind the attacker, as the raw rhubarb spirit re-emerges, bringing back the element of surprise

Cashew - Cashew fist is predicated on the principle that people don't want to fight someone who is nuts. A very unpredictable style, like drunken boxing.

Tomato - ah forget it, I've spent too much time on this silliness already...

[DelicateSound]

Come on guys. Give the guy a break. What he's doing sounds OK, he's charging no money or anything.

Remember, everyone who trains has their own interpretation of what they have learnt. I may as well call my style DelicateFu, cause I do some things different from my Sifu.

If this guy wants to combine MA's and religion - Fine. I'm a Catholic and still love Martial Arts.

Watch out for Catholicai coming soon :D

Only kiddin!

[Ralek]

How did witches get associatted with broom sticks? Do you have any rituals using broom sticks? What do you do with broom sticks. I know that it is impossible to fly on broomsticks so what do you use them for?

[HopGar]

SOMEONE just let a troll in to the room! Who just did something that stupid? Sick 'im!

[Felipe Bido]

Just slap the troll with the same broomstick he's asking about

[HopGar]

Good idea, get over here troll-boy! (smacks ralek over the head)

[Ralek]

Boy. I'll shove that broom stick up yo hiny and open a can of TKD on yo sorry azz.

Witches have been flying on brooms sticks for centuries. It isn't anything new. Withes also have magic powers and they can fight using thier magic and they have spells that they can use.

[Ray Pina]

Everyone should make what they are studying their own. My way is different then my master's way, but I'm learning.

All the things I have learned in the past are a part of me and combine to form a unique way, my way. However, now I'm a student again and learning a new way. It will still not be a carbon copy of my master, but adhere to his system's principles.

Just because its different, I should now claim to be a great grandmaster and rename it as my own.

One can, take different principles they have mastered and come up with a different twist, like aikido, though one could also argue that that is also just incomplete Ba Gua. Good, but not as good as the source, few things are.

I guess I'm trying to say, hey, go with it if that is what you want. BUT, someone like myself will be suspect, because you are not a Yoshiba, or a Lam Say Wing, or a Hung Gar founder with years of training and experience. YOu're a guy who's into Wicca who trained for a little while. So, claim a new style, but it will be suspect until you put some big names down with it.

One thing you have going for you, you won't be challenged by other Wicca-fu players claiming to be the rightful heir to teach. It just sounds silly though. Why not live your Wicca, and teach Lama Pai, or long hand white crane? I think because you are not qualified, and then qualified yourself with a new system.

I could be wrong. If I am, I'm sorry. I don't know you are your business, it just sounds a bit suspect. If you are a great MA, I think you would understand.

[Black Jack]

Don't worry about what any others are saying here, you have made no claims to masterhood, whatever the hell that is, or even worse grandmasterhood, you have been open and honest with your response and that is all that you ever have to give anybody.

Just give credit to where credit is due and don't fret the other political bs. If your background is true and you have experianced those kinds of violent encounters then that alone is worth more than a handfull of years in "martial" training.

It would be pleasent to see you include some western martial practices into your methodology as your religion is based on western viewpoints but go with the best you have at hand.

[red5angel]

Hey Phoenix, you have to take most of what is said here with a grain of salt. Say something or do something that seems out of the ordinary and you get a lot of smart ass remarks and alot of BS where it may not be deserved.
If you think you understand what you are doing, and you have confidence that it wont hurt anyone else, and you dont use it for purposes of greed or power, I cant imagine what could be wrong with it. hopefully, if you teach it as a combat art, atleast you test it out to see that the principles you propogate, and the ideas you pass on are successful. If they work, who cares?
Often times we get skeptical when anyone claims to have created anything, of course look at our western society, especially amaerican, we are full of people selling get rich quick scams and snake oil cures for illnesses, etc... If it works I say go for it.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

I'll attempt to answer some of the questions asked.

GunnedDownAtrocity. Obviously, I need to clarify some timeline issues. I have in fact trained actively for 11 years, but the 'heart beat' of my training was my first three years, which were deliberately intense. Aside from a few brief breaks here and there, I have not stopped training. I still go visit my (Hung Gar) master periodically, and we discuss my ongoing progress and work on technique. (I call him "master" in the context of this forum, for he is one, but he has never permitted his students to refer to him as such.) I have never received a sash or a ranking - he does not allow it. He does not have a school; he teaches privately, and in the 11 years I have trained with him, he has never accepted money in return for instruction. All of his students are regarded as brothers or sisters. He teaches that belts and ranks can prove detrimental in that they allow you to think you are better (or worse) than you are. He wants his students to dismiss any pre-conceived notions they may have about their skill. His philosophy is that otherwise, they could be defeated by attitude before the fight even begins.

Shin. I have never once presented myself a master - ever. I am still in the process of learning and will always be. Whoever I work out with, even in the context of teaching, I refer to others as brothers and sisters.

EvolutionFist. No, I do not go by great-grandmaster. There seem to be some preconceived notions of my being some sort of off-the-cuff egocentric within this forum. I go by Phoenix Pangaryk. I have never allowed anyone to call me teacher or Sifu, I have always insisted on Phoenix. This allows me to keep my ego in check and allows the student to be on an equal level.

I am not basing a style on 3 years of experience. I am basing it on 11 years of experience in MA and 10 in Wicca. Those first three years, I was one of four students accepted by a single teacher, based on our committment and abilities. We each benefitted from significant one-on-one instruction. I learned 15 forms, most external, some internal, and we sparred once per week for 3 hours, rotating partners.

As for your connection to animal totems and fighting. I mentioned that magic and healing are primary goals while self defense is secondary. I am not yet a 'great martial artist' and never claimed to be. Do I have respect to my past lineage? Of course I do. A student by the name of Al Pratt was a top student of a well-respected kung fu school. He eventually became dissatisfied with his teachings, and challenged the rankings and politics of the 'money making school'. He challenged all of the school's black belts, defeated each, and took their belts away. He then left the school, never to return. This is perhaps the reason my teacher - his top student - abandoned the use of belts/sashes and ranks along with politics in his teachings. My teacher, Terry Eagleson, lives as a monk. He is a devout Buddhist and practitioner of Hung Gar, Eagle Claw, Long Fist, Ba Gua and Chin Na. Currently, it is difficult for us to travel and see one another, and as such, I will be going to see another master soon to continue my hung gar training.

As for my previous training, I studied some Eagle Claw, Long Fist, Chin Na before ultimately choosing Hung Gar. I was able to work with multiple animals, work the internals. The only thing I was dissapointed in (and still am) is that there is not enough ground fighting in the animal system I have learned. I am currently addressing this element of MA in my training. I suppose you could call my teacher a striker, and I want to be balanced on my feet and in the dirt.

You do not have to take Wiccai seriously. It is not a threat to you or your belief structure. Yes, I do create my own forms based on techniques I research and study. I combine the grapples, throws, strikes et al into a form with my animals. I do teach form, but the higher level of Wiccai stresses the student must leave the confines of structure and form as taught to them to create their own forms with their own expressions.

Yes, I train with full power. Although I have said ritual and healing are of primary concern to me, I also focus on teaching the art as an effective self defense style. Wiccai, like other styles, has the capacity to maim and kill. This theory is taught along with morals and foundation teachings with emphasis on personal responsibility and focus on intent. If you know how to break bones and kill - you know how not to. No more excuses. Too many people say 'I did not mean to do that', so I address it.

You went on to say this style will be suspect until it puts down other big names. I think that is correct if you are thinking strictly as a fighter. If you and I were to engage in a fight, and if you were to defeat me, that would not make Wiccai any less real for me - it may for you, but not me. If I were to defeat you, it would not make Wiccai any more real for me, but maybe for you. Again, I do not seek converts, so why fight you at all? But can I fight? if I have to I can be proficient. In fact, to render harm to you in some way would be to harm myself in some way, which directly ties in with my view of karmic consequence (both Buddhism and Wicca believe in karma). We are all connected to the greater whole and to harm another is to bring harm upon yourself.

I do not train to fight and win trophies - perhaps if I was 10 years younger and was not working to feed my children I would. But if I complete my Hung Gar training, get that certificate on the wall, does it make me more legit to you? I guess it would. But certificates mean nothing to me. Belts, sashes and certificates simply warrant and recognize goals obtained, forms learned, it does not mean that the black belt guy will defeat the blue belt guy. I have defeated black belts in sparring and I have been defeated by the blue belt guy, so what did that mean? I must train harder and be humble. I recognize that my Hung Gar training is an ongoing process that I will continue indefinately. Someday, if I do choose to achieve teaching accreditation to instruct Hung Gar in a school setting (as opposed to Wiccai, which I will continue to teach privately), I will likely pursue certification. But when I get that certificate on the wall I doubt it will make Wiccai any more real for some.

You asked why I don't just practice Wicca seperately from Hung Gar. The point is, I tried this for years, and although it works at one level, the animal systems I have encountered are based on a theology I respect, but do not exclusively follow. For me, the martial arts have been a spiritual as well as a practical journey. So it only made sense to adapt the Buddhist 5 elements into the Wiccan 5 (earth, water, air, fire and the Akasha, which combines the other four - aka Spirit or Metal), and the animals from those of the Shaolin Temple to those more closely associated with Wiccai.

As well, I believe I have given full credit where credit is due.

Qi Dup You can call it a system if you want. You can call it a style. I call it a style and a way of life for myself. I prefer not to call it a system - sounds too structured.

Ralek Witches and broomsticks? A little off topic isn't it? The broom is traditionally used to sweep the circle before ritual. It is symbolic of sweeping out negative energies before work begins. It is also a symbol of threshold in marriage, which has been adopted by many traditions, including the Christian traditions. In Wicca, the bride and groom are bound together and then they both jump over the bessom signalling a new start in their lives.

Regards
Phoenix

[Ray Pina]

"I am still in the process of learning and will always be."

Man, I am sorry if I came off an rude, just always skeptical -- in fact, I think that is a good trate in today's martial art's arena.

As for Wicca, I always had respect for it. I was raised with the notion that there are many doors to heaven, God, Enlightenment, truth.

Sir, I did not mean you any insult, just wanted to hear some more about yourself, not that my opinion matters anyway. You sound legut, the best too you.

As for my mentioning great grandmasterhood, my experince has been that is the title offered to a founding father of a system, then grandmaster, then master, then generations of masters. How else does one know ones place in a lineage. Me, I'm a kook under Master Chan Bong.

Best of luck to you and your system.

Peace
Ray

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

well said.

to me though, it doesn't sound so much like you created your own style as you gave hungar a wiccan flavor. is this how you see it as well or do you see them as significantly differant in flow and martial application?

[wushu chik]

MM PhoenixPangaryk! I am glad to see that you came to your defense. And it's partially MY fault for the thread going awry!!!! So, I take blame as well as the rest! And since you are a junior member here, you will learn that almost every thread on here goes to crap!!

~Wen~

[wushu chik]

Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention. Don't know how long you have been on here reading and such, but something about Ralek you will have to learn. He's funny as sh!t, but as dumb as a sheep with his head stuck in a fence in Kentucky! Anyways, have a nice day!

~Wen~

[Ralek]

I am not Wushu Chik. You can check my IP address and it will be different from hers.

[wushu chik]

Ralek, what the H3LL are you talking about?? READ THE D@MN POSTS MORON....DON'T JUST SKIM THEM!!! Who said you were me?? You are a fu(king moron, and I am so tired of you. Go stick your head in a fence.

~Wen~

[Shin]

Okay, my bad. You said you "Excelled". In my view that's just as subjective as calling yourself a master.

Oh, and if your kids can read the kind of crap that you find on this board without supervision, you might want to look into surf patrol or something.

Funny how you didn't address the other points I raised.

The difference between you and me is I freely admit that I'm judgemental.

[Ralek]

Wushu Chik. Everyone is accusing me of being all the girls in different threads. So i am just showing that I am not the girls. If people don't believe me then can just check my IP address.

I'm just telling everybody that if they want to accuse me of having multiple names then they need to check my IP adress before jumping to conclusions.

The only times i have ever changed my name's on KFO is when i am banned. Then i have to change my name for obvious reasons.

[Sam Wiley]

Phoenix,
Could you tell us some more about the animal forms you designed? I am curious about the wolverine form you mentioned especially. (At least I think you were the one.)

Did you stick strictly to Hung Gar's principles when designing them, or did you delve into other areas? If so, may I ask your reasons?

Did you design the forms more to explore the spirit of the animal or to mimic its movements?

May I ask the structure of the forms? Are they "long" forms based on the animal or a few specific movements repeated?

Could you give us a comparison between the forms you created and animals styles similar to them that we may be more familiar with, including the differences?

[wushu chik]

Ralek....
The reason why everyone thinks that you are the girls on the forum is because you are a B I T C H!!! That's the ONLY logical explination I can come up with.

~Wen~

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Sam, I would like to address your questions.

I will get to the wolverine a bit later. I’ll start with your question on weather or not I stuck to Hung Gar’s principles when designing form or if I delved into other areas. To be blunt, I delved into other areas. As mentioned, I was initiated as a Tibetan Buddhist, but I had trouble with their ‘man in a state of nature’ theory. They believe that all are inherently pure, white light – all goodness. I disagree. I choose to believe we are a collage of energies of light, dark, hard, soft, positive and negative – among others. The balance of these energies is the focus – not on weather or not dark means bad or evil. They just are. I do not think in terms of evil and bad when I think of the negative energies within me. Now, in Hung gar I was never taught about my connections to animals and nature in this way. Now, assuming you accept the fact that we all have positive and negative energy flowing through us, and then it is vital we recognize the energies in the traits of animals as well as ourselves. I choose to attempt to make this connection through magic and ritual. Now having said that, a lot of Wiccans do not like what I do and they describe shape shifting differently than I do. When someone tells me they shape shift with the raven in their dreams, I agree, but I do not take it as seriously as what I do (perhaps a fault of mine because it seemed serious to them – I guess I would hope they try to physicalize it and they don’t). This may sound egocentric but in terms of the animal/cerebral connection, I attempt to look through the eyes of the raven, to physically appear as the raven and ultimately BE the raven.

This brings me to the wolverine question you had. Fear. Fear. I have been working with the wolverine (female) for a while now. She is new to my toolbox. If I am faced with the most frightening situation, I would call on her in an instant – this level of calling would be to deliver death to an intruder – an intruder who I fear is attempting to kill me. Wolverines are fierce. They will guard their young like no other and will, if necessary, take on the largest of mammals. They will urinate on the uneaten spoils – just so you cannot have any. They are, in my opinion worthy of research and worthy of connecting with for magic and self defense. I spoke about the removal of ears and flesh – she will intend to do that. She wills it to be done. I focus a lot of my training on will and intent and the wolverine will tear your face off with her teeth, claws and shear will power, if threatened enough. I attempt to be like that in some of my training. She helps me look at the negative energies I have within me and face them.

Yes I design forms to express both the spirit and to mimic, as best I can, so I can tap into the shen, spirit or instincts of the animal. You need to look in order to act. I believe that to be true and based on my experience mimicking an animal is vital to tapping into the core of this connection we have – this reptilian part of ourselves that all of us have. Having said that, it is very difficult to do this when doing structured form. The form is vital to teach and learn the animal movements, certain reactions and to feel the connection. But I also believe to be effective in high ritual magic and self defense, the form must dissolve and become empty of thought and substance to establish a pure connection with the animals; therefore being effective. Believe me, I understand I have only begun this journey, and I can only hope I can some day be as proficient with it as other former shamans and shape shifters. I have had a few moments when I was asked to move as the cat and it was very difficult for me to drop the form and simply BE cat. I am getting better with it. It is a spontaneous connection usually triggered through emotions like fear, anger, rage etc.

I used to use LCD and other drugs to assist in the ‘tap in’. I no longer use them for legal and parental reasons, but I also believe it has its place in this bridge to the core I mentioned. I am not your average Wiccan and I see Wicca a little bit differently than some. I choose to attempt the bridging through the research and practical workings others have attempted in the past. Some Wiccans also think I am a flake because I study some of Crowley’s work. I do not care to stop on my path and gaze into the eyes of their confusion. I take what works for me and respect others see things differently. That is pretty much me in a nutshell. They can ‘shape shift’ with a poem and I will go shape shift with posture, hand symbology and movement. It works for me.

Are the forms long? I wish we could all just BE the animals and never even have to learn the structure form teaches. But, I know it has its place to establish the reactionary results we want in self-defense, so I do them. (I am like a kid in a candy store – I want more of the emptiness and freedom of thoughtlessness in animal shape shifting) The forms can go as high as 300 moves and as little as 50.

Your last point about animal comparisons. Cat may look similar to wolverine. The symbologies of the claws are very close, but the posture of the wolverine is hunched more for me and rides closer to the earth. The look is more sinister for the wolverine and the intent is more lethal – on an immediate level. Assuming the situation is grave, wolverine will attempt to kill as quickly and ruthlessly as possible and be very dark and dirty doing so. The raven, crow and owl may look similar in hand symbology to the crane, but again they have very different attributes and intentions. I suppose this is where application is similar, but the intent and execution are different in the goal to be achieved. If I need to snap the neck hard enough for a knock out, then perhaps raven, snake and butterfly will be used. If the neck snap requires a break to cause death, then owl, wolverine, cat, scorpion etc will be used as their attributes are more conducive to obtaining the desired intent.

I think all animal systems are or can be similar to what I am trying to do. Mantis, white crane, monkey, etc are animals and I believe schools should be teaching us that we are connected to them more than just in the application of form. We should be instructed to eventually drop the forms and become the animals through specific exercises and rituals that promote it. We have a direct, scientific connection to them and this should be further researched in MA for its effectiveness. A mantis practitioner may only study form and never really get to the connection I attempt to, and they may defeat me. What I do does not indicate certain victory over the mantis practitioner, it promotes a healthy way of life, regardless of how ‘deadly’ I become. It promotes freedom to be connected with animals in a way that is healthy and magical, for me as a Wiccan.

I hope this has helped clarify your questions. I need some sleep. Chow.

Phoenix

[Yung Apprentice]

HHHHHMMM. O.k. You get props for doing your own thing.As far as the jumping the broom statement, that was actually a ritual used by slaves to signify their marriage. It was used by slaves because they were not able to marry legally, and the ceremonies didn't draw a lot of attention by their "slaveholders". N E who, ya know for someone who is peaceful and in touch with nature, you talk a lot about gory things.:D

[scotty1]

Ralek makes me laugh.

This is a good thread, I can feel the love in this room.

I'm going to get some soup and read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

Phoenix, more power to ya.

[Repulsive Monkey]

...were considered to be used as an auto-erotic drug dispensing aid, where a positional stance once taken naked to and actions incurred to facilitate absorbtion of the bark of the branch which was said to contain hallucinogenic properties. This act was used for shamainc reasons and hence, due to being tripped out, is where the idea of flying on broomsticks really came from. Levitational acts and flying wiht the stick in reality was never the issue.

[Sam Wiley]

In other words, the girls smeared the stick with weak but psychoactive contact poison and went to town with it, if you get my drift. The drugs made it feel like they were flying (and probably they hallucinated it as well). Supposedly they also had a mock horse set up, with a saddle with and extra long saddle horn. The descriptions I've read remind me of the suspended barrels they use to teach people how to ride broncos. Nowadays witches ("****s" in the common parlance) invest a bit of dough in a Sybian saddle, attach a phallic appendage, and give the electric controls to their boyfriends.;)

Anyway, I just want to thank you, Phoenix, for your explanations. It sounds to me like you have put some serious thought into what you are doing. I have been experimenting with animal forms myself lately. While I know a few animal palm changes for Bagua, I have never explored them until lately. Also, I felt that the few I knew were not really enough to exlore the whole animal idea. A friend of mine sent me a video tape a few years ago of George Xu teaching the 10 animal 6 harmony style, which I never watched, and so I dug that out a couple of days ago to check out some more animal based stuff. His bear form is lumbering, but not slow, just like a bear. His monkey form is lively and animated. Actually, all of the ones I have looked at so far really resemble the spirit more than the animal. The bear movements, fo instance, do not look like a bear, but rather express the spirit of the bear.

Anyway, have you designed any animal specific training methods besides forms? Have you designed any two man sets to explore the applications, or how one animal might act when confronted with another? Have you assigned any specific breathing patterns to the animals? Have you designed animal posture qigongs to go with them? Do the different animals utilize different power generation methods Can you give us examples of any of these things?

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Sam. You asked me the following:

Anyway, have you designed any animal specific training methods besides forms? Have you designed any two man sets to explore the applications, or how one animal might act when confronted with another? Have you assigned any specific breathing patterns to the animals? Have you designed animal posture qigongs to go with them? Do the different animals utilize different power generation methods Can you give us examples of any of these things? [/B][/QUOTE]

As far as specific training methods, I would have to say that I have not really developed methods in the way you have asked. I will, for example, go out into the woods for a night, start a fire, open a ritual circle, open my chakras and go through some hand symbology and slow moving meditation and allow it to build. I may have a partner beat a drum to assist and I will focus on the owl and only the owl all night. I attempt to spontaneously engage with the spirit of the owl and for moments of time, it happens. I will find myself connecting and moving - learning what the owl is offering me in spirit. Sometimes it may 'look' silly and when I stop and think, "hey that looks silly", I have lost the connection and must start over. This has not been easy for me; to develop my own animals and to work with them in this way. Noone has ever taught me these things and I have yet to find anyone around where I live who does. The training can be tough in this self-motivated respect.

As for two man sets - again, perhaps I need to further penetrate this area for the application in terms of teaching. What I will do, however, is ask my partner to engage with me and as I 'find' something new, I slow it down, back up and go over it to see if it would have applied. A lot of times I will spar with my observer which is me. I will see an attacker coming in on me and I will engage that observer. My brother in law, whom I have taught for a couple of years now will spar with me and we work on things I pick up in sessions with my animals. The same applies for him. We work on things he discovers. I find that when you discover certain things yourself your better able to apply them in combat. It comes out more natural. My brother has years of training in dance, skating and art. He is able to move and mimic a lot of animals. More than myself and I have 8 or 9 years on him in MA. The only reason I tend to dominate him in sparring is because he does not allow his fear to be a trigger for him. He is getting much better as we move along. He is learning about engaging energy. To be quite honest, I have only been training others in Wiccai for a couple of years. I kept it personal, so it is still in its infancy in terms of 'exploring the possibilities' with active partners. I have only actively worked from a Wiccai perspective with a small number of individuals. I normally show five animals to people and keep Wiccai personal as it is still so young.

Specific breathing patterns? Yes, a little - to get the breath down back where it belongs, but ultimately, No. I practice asan postures with all my animals (Crowley influence here) and focus on my connection to the earth in moving meditative breathing - but I am not rigid in things like microcosmic orbital or exercises like the 8 pieces of brocade. Personally, I think the use of music or the beats of the drum are better triggers. If I am feeling intense and very aggressive in a dark way, I will grab my Walkman and plug in a group like Metallica and engage my animals in non-form. It looks pretty freaky in the park when you’re tapped in and grunting, snorting and jumping around like a maniac. I am sometimes asked about my use of music and it is a training aid for me. Ritual music is also a trigger. The grunts and sounds I just mentioned are also key. I think Bruce Lee was onto something when he made all kinds of weird, abnormal sounds; and it was not just theatrics for him - it was his connection to that type of emptiness. So, I focus on the things that establish a connection - the breathing automatically falls into place.

Power generation methods. Well, I use the principles of force in terms of absorb, repel, hard, soft, yield, penetrate etc., but again how do I, or you, 'see' energy? In magic I raise what we call 'the cone of power'. This power generates form the earth and moves through my chakras. I see it as a spiral of deep blue, penetrating light. When I cast my circle, I use no tools in Wiccai - only my animals and I 'scorch' the earth where I will be working. I use the same cone of power to send healing energy out - the same way a Buddhist would send out positive white light. I would also use it in this manner.

Now, on the darker side of energy. If I need to strike you in the eye and not cause permanent damage, I will perhaps use the tongue of my snake and I will align my intentions with the technique. If the situation were immediate and grave, I would then require a full penetration of the eye. This strike may look exactly the same as the snake, but the finger sinking in would be that of my scorpion, sending forth a piercing destructive energy back into the eye via my stinger. This piercing would be in the form of this light, spiraling through the eye and beyond the socket and into the brain. I would visualize this being done to attempt the desired will and intent of causing serious bodily harm - to penetrate the eye with the stinger and poison the brain with venom, ultimately causing serious damage. Sounds a bit weird to some and over the top to others, but again, I look at self-defense a bit differently than some and I see the world a bit differently than most. I am not some lunatic bent on hurting others. I have not been in a fight for several years and it is my goal to end my days without doing any of this to anyone. I do believe to be effective in magic, ritual and self-defense, you need to fully understand and explore all the possibilities with positive and negative energy. Creative forces and destructive forces. Obviously my replies could be much longer, more detailed and offer more examples, but time is limited and the use of this forum is limited.

Time to get off to work.

Phoenix

[Sam Wiley]

Oh, a more shamanic approach. I like that. is the music you experiment with more trance-inducing or more emotionally stimulating? The Metallica sounds a little more emotionally stimulating, but on ...And Justice for All some of the songs were quite long and repetitious. I used to practice to that tape, and songs like The Shortest Straw, which was quite long served as a backdrop to qigong sessions. For forms, I prefer to listen to Ozzy or Black Sabbath. I prefer to stir emotions during forms practice, which works well, oddly, with the no mind state. Nowadays, for qigong, I either listen to Tool, or else turn on my white noise machine and listen to thunderstorms or waves crashing. It's quite nice. Have you tried exploring the animals with sound effects such as those in the background? In some Satanic ceremonies things like this are done to enhance the mood and atmosphere. Running water, thunder, low volume hums, crackling of electricity, etc. are some of the things we use to help acheive the altered state. Pearl Jam has a couple of really hypnotic songs, Aye Davanita and one on their first album that I can't remember the name to. Both are kind of tribal-sounding. Have you ever practiced any of the more "lighthearted" animals, like the monkey for an example, to something like that circus song, Entrance of the Gladiators, or something like that?

Have you experimented with manufacturing masks of each animal to wear during practice, to better infuse the personality of the animal into your own? Sometimes, wearing a mask helps with dissolution of the ego, and allows you to tap into areas of your conciousness that normally would not manifest.

Have you ever experimented with any of the energy gathering and cultivation techniques of the Temple of the Vampire? Some of their techniques are the same as normal qigong, but they also delve into areas most dare not go. I have sometimes combined what I learned from my practice from what I have picked up from their Vampire Bible, like combining visualization, energy gathering, and tortoise or prenatal breathing techniques from qigong, which pack the gathered qi into the dantien. I've had some startling experiences after I started experimenting with them.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

I would have to say the music is more for emmotion. The Metallica, Black Sabbath and Ozzy you listen to are on my list of 'go to' titles if I am feeling agressive. I am a big fan of hard music mixed with the headphones and animals. Some of my best workouts are with them. I would agree with the 'no mind state' you mentioned. Some people say my tapes and use of drums, weather etc are crutches but I see them as keys. I try not to depend on them, but they work.

As far as a real trance. I have only tapped into deep trance on a deep level using primitive, raw ceremonial music as well as drugs. Since I no longer use the drugs I once did, the music can serve its purpose. I also tap into this trance without these tools, its just a lot harder for me. I am attempting to find ways to rid myself of these methods of assistance - but it is hard. One thing I found that works well is to get off my butt and go out in severe weather to do some work. This is very usefull.

As far as working with monkey, no. I have not explored him yet. My injuries have shelved him for now. I will, but for now I have been trying to focus on the main Hung Gar animals (but with the 'raw' twist we are discussing) as well as scorpion, wolverine, stag, goat and owl. The later five have become important to me. The owl found me a while back. I was reflecting on owl and thinking about conducting research on its fighting abilities and how this might connect to my aggressive side. Well, I had a few powerful dreams and then I was driving my car and a white owl swooped down in front of my car, flew ahead of me for about 100 yards and then turned and flew off. You have to understand - it is very rare to see an owl in this area. Well, in conjunction with the dreams, I decided to take this relationship further and the next night I went to the same spot and began doing owl symbology with claws and movement (listening to Metallica on 10) Well, I had this urge to turn and do a rising block, so I did. Out of nowhere this huge white owl was diving in on me, claws out and glaring down on me! Well, to be blunt - I freaked out. I was in shock and it was the first time I became a REAL believer in what I was doing. Then the next night, I went to see a friend whom I had not seen in months. He, again out of nowhere, asked if I like owls! I started to laugh like a nut case and he asked what my problem was. I said, 'nothing, bro, forget it, why you ask?" Well, he gets up and returns with a mirror etching he did of this owl for me. He said, "I thought you might like this". I tell you, Sam! I do not take symbology and messages lightly, so now I train with the owl and 'she' is one of my familiars. She is also one mean nasty S.O.B if she has to be and fun to work with. She and the dragon taught me about ear removal and the removal of flesh. I never had this level of intent in my training prior to this. I know I talk a lot about the darker side of MA, but I study that side hard so I can bring it into better balance with my softer side.

Temple of the Vampire? No. But I am sure I have probably delved into the areas they do. I am not at all afraid of what I may see about myself that I have not already seen. My fears are not based in what may be there. My fears are more dangerous than that - I know what is there. Because of my past experiences, I have learned that fear has been my most dangerous trigger; trigger to the animal in me. I was always told not to be afraid - that fear would get me hurt. I completely dissagree, Sam. Fear has saved my life and it has also caused great harm to others when I lived on the streets. I have learned more form fear than any other emmotion and fear has been the strongest trigger to the raw, primordial, reptilian side for me. When I work with others that accept the energies we spoke of and are open to discovering who we are in our most raw connection to nature, I get to these issues to show them their true face. If they do not believe beyond the all good, white light theory, then I cannot help them see what they are blind to - in terms of my perception of reality. I try to respect their views may be different.

Ever see a guy who has had training, look so 'off technique' in a fight, yet destroy the opponent? Often the structured experiences we have fail us. I like form for foundational, practical reasons, but I also find it can be a hindrance if not dropped at the right time. Too many folks don't venture beyond the form because only the 'master' can take them there. I disagree. I challenge anyone I work with to grow with the form but at the same time, independently of it. To explore and ask questions. To experiment and challenge structures in a meaningful, heart felt way.
To eventually create their own based on personal experiences with them.

I would like to know more about your 'startling experiences', if you care to share them. I am interested in these types of experiences. I wish I had training partners like yourself to explore these things with. It takes time for practitioners to get to this level - not in terms of skill, but in terms of letting go of what they have learned and riding the wave into the unknown to tap into raw animal instincts and emmotions.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Forgot to mention, that yes, I have worked with masks. I work with a herne helmet and I have worked with the green man mask and I also have a staff with a goat skull on top I use for circle. I have quite a bit of symbolic triggers in my home from jewelry to masks and drums to candles and pentacles to a stag head on the wall. Others as well, but you get the point.

[diego]

im trying to visualize this,would you say if you looked at it from a western scientist perspect,Shapeshifting into the spirit,is like a ??? lets say selfinduced hallucination of affirmation!!...hallucinate meaning the rush when you coil your posture triggering the reptilian brain as they say,like when you guzzle to much alcohol,and the rush swamps you.....
i think i have a idea wear your coming from, everyone does it in martial arts,regardless--how many of you thought you were bruce lee,even ralek does it when he jacks to gracie vids,pictureing he's royce,taking all contendors in cumbat....HAD TO BE DONE,BUT besides the ralek joke i am serious.."" if im right-shapeshifting with the animal spirit is very much a powerfull affirmation, then ralek does it to if he ever gets around to training,he will through his excitement visualize he could become helio,or rorion,and that will form a greater spirit in his shell-physical,wich his weak mind from a concurrent lame existence could never applied....""
PAYCE...

[diego]

Respect's.

[Ray Pina]

I understand this channeling human energy, spirit or intention, but, I myself, am trying to focus on the human potential, I believe it, stemming from our minds, is even more powerful but few try to expand it. Returning to the reptilian impulse to me, seems like down grading.

I have found that as I turned to Internal, I have had better success looking at things as an intelligent man, checking things out from a scientific point of view.

I belive everything you are saying ... if you believe in it. The mind is everything. BUT, I believe its focus can be put to other, maybe even better uses, without resorting to go a reptilian impulse.

Interesting topic though.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Good comments. Your scientific approach is not as far off with mine as you may think. This connection to the three phases of the mind or brain that I am looking into is very scientific. In terms of applied techniques, I am looking more into ground grappling from a strict scientific application point of view. How to manipulate positioning for the mount and guard. How to counter and attack certain flaws detected from the attaching energy encountered in this art.

Looking into the 'raw state of mind' is not regression. It is attempting to re-establish a lost link. In todays world many of us seek a quick fix and simply want to know how to get to the destination as quickly as possible, bypassing ancient, shamanistic techniques. This is not to say your techniques in terms of your internal training are any less real or scientific than mine. They are both valid. I am a traditionalist in terms of human connections to nature and I am also a modern thinker in terms of application of techniques. We need to adapt to new techniques and applications in order to continue the advancement of the arts. It is not a down grade; try to visualize it as a real interpretation of what you may already know and understand for yourself. For me to ask a catholic or God fearing individual to accept pre-christian theories is silly on my part. I would not do that. I myself, tend to work with techniques and traditions in terms of 'raw fighting' in systems or ideas that predate christianity. I am also looking into Prankration - not because I may think it is any better than modern schools, but simply because it predates most. I think practitioners were more connected to things like mind, body and spirit in these times than today. We have, for the most part, become detached. If spirituality was not important to me I would simply go to a fighting school that focusses on technique alone. I will be attending a ground grappling school soon so i can be correct in techniques in the dirt, but I will take what I learn there and fully apply it to my spirituality and magic, ritual practices. This promotes me to connect with my MA in a personal way and I also think it makes more more effective in magic, healing, ritual and self defense.

I have many interests. Magic, healing and the martial arts are but one pillar in my life. I also focus on my children, family, education, career, theatre, and sport. I like to subject myself and my children to many different subjects and belief systems.

Anyway, Evolution Fist, as your name implies, you are evolving and I have a feeling your probably very proficient in MA. I appreciate your input and welcome to the debate.

Phoenix

[Sam Wiley]

Evolution Fist,
It's not so much a regression or a step backward or whatever. This is a lost, for the most part, part of human conciousness that served us in the past, and many believe that it should not be lost. Have you ever heard the phrase "backwards down the path"? It's not going back forever, just retracing one's steps (up the evolutionary ladder) to familiarize oneself with who and what one is, and where one comes from. Such knowledge is necessary to evolve to one's full potential.

The Internal arts aid us in personal evolution, helping us to achieve our full potential, and that is why mental and analytical facilities seem enhanced...because they are. Generally, people who reach the internal are people with a higher conciousness, who have evolved a bit further than others. (This is on a personal scale.) People who have evolved further can allow themselves to regress at certain times with no fear that they will not come back. People who are not that evolved or are not that "civilized" need not regress at all, though if they do, they are the ones who seem to actually "downgrade."

Resorting to the reptilian impulse is not a 24/7 thing. It is something we condition ourselves to do to give us a higher chance of survival. It is base, it is ugly, it is savage, brutal and violent...but it is a part of ourselves we cannot deny. You can wear colored contact lenses, but you cannot deny the true color of your eyes. No matter how many different pairs of contacts you wear, they will still be the same color beneath. Some people like to use the mask analogy, saying that if you wear a mask for long enough, it becomes your face. That is true, but beneath the mask, you are still the same, and beneath the human skin you are still an animal.

The reptilian part of our conciousness is a link to instincts and knowledge that have long been disused. As an example of what I mean, let's say that far in the future industrialization has destroyed much of the landscape and rainfall is harmful to humans, sometimes deadly if they cannot get in out of it. So humans develop enclosures in which they spend almost their entire lives. Eventually, they forget about the poison rain, having spent entire generations inside. Now let's say that four people venture outside on an overcast day, and it begins raining. One person, having not evolved very far, still possesses the instinct to jump back into the enclosure, and promptly does so. Two of the people just stand there like idiots until they realize that the rain is melting their flesh off, and run around not knowing what to do. They die. The fourth person simply pulls out an umbrella as he sees the first drops of rain fall, goes about his business whistling a tune perhaps, and when the rain stops he looks around to see two puddles of ex-humans and one cowering primitive as he furls his umbrella back up. The cowering primitive, though he hasn't lost the life saving instinct, hasn't evolved far beyond it, and never might. The two puddles who were once humans, evolved beyond the instinct and lost contact with it, so much so that they could not draw upon it in a time of need. The fourth, who drew an umbrella, had not lost the instinct, but had evolved beyond it, and yet maintained contact with it so that he could utilize it in time of need without remaining a primitive.

Phoenix,
Have you ever explored the levels of human conciousness through the medium of the Enochian Keys, as in guided meditation? Have you ever played recordings of the Enochian Keys in the background during your practice? If not, might I recommend no's 1, 3, and 8? They are the ones for gathering power. Anyway, sounds like you are headed in a productive direction, and I would suggest definitely researching the Owl more. Sounds like a definite power animal for you. Also, do you use natural incenses, like tobacco, in your rites, or do you use specific scents? Have you tried combining your ritual exploration of the animals with more animalistic scents like musk, patchouli, etc?

[PhoenixPangaryk]

As far as the Enochian Keys, yes. But I do not have them to tape; I have them in document. I have a tremendous amount of works on Crowley - you can get most of the text from sacred texts and download it. I have looked into the keys from his works. Key #1... " show yourselves: open the mysteries of your creation...” Key #3...the secret wisdom of your creation. Key #8 "Come away for the crowns of the temple and the coat of him that is, was, and shall be crowned, are divided".

Granted, I work about 80 Hrs/ week, so I really do lack in study. But time is young and I have years of study and learning ahead of me. I normally read some things and I attempt to absorb some meaning and relationship from it, incorporate what seems to fit for myself and then apply it. I have so much to research. I am still in the infancy of my learning. We all are. I chose Wicca for myself because there was a counterpart to the God - the Goddess. This duality is important to me. I look into all kinds of aspects but I do not accept that 'all male' creator theory. I choose to challenge my ego and accept the female side of he, which is she. I need this in my life or I tend to be too destructive. Balance is key. Trust me, as I have said, I am not your average Wiccan. There are a lot of Wiccans who do not look into the eyes of the shadows OF death and the darker side of reality. Their are Wiccan traditions that only worship the Goddess and those that only worship the god - thats not for me. I do not agree to the type of one-sided opinion of who we are. Now, in terms of the super ego; in Buddhism to think you’re the Buddha is to establish a dangerous and destructive super ego. Well, I make this connection - I am as much God/dess as they are me. One cannot exist without the other. We only keep them 'separate' for reasons perhaps not meant to discuss in this thread.

Most of the incenses we burn are natural and when we draw the pent over the third eye while entering a rite, we use musk, sandalwood, patchouli etc. When I go to a native sweat lodge, I always bring raw tobacco (if I can get it). When I work with my animals I use scent as a trigger - yes. I also use leather. My 'uniform' consists of the Hung Gar bracelets, belt and shin bracelets. The bracelets are studded with pentacles. I wear a full-length cloak that weighs about 35 lbs at times. I have recently given away my bracelets to my brother-in-law. A token of relinquishing my ego. I have given away almost all of my power symbols to other practitioners for personal reasons. They are powerful gifts. So, for now, I need to focus on making all new bracelets and belts for myself. I make them all by hand as with my drums. I also give them away to personal friends when the time is right. I never harbor tools, but having said that, giving these items away that have gallons of sweat into them - is very emotional - it is like giving you the shirt off my back, literally. This giving of myself is forms of magic and healing for me. But trust me, the people that receive these gifts from me are the most trusted people in my life as they hold some of my power. Enough said about that.

Sam. You mentioned a couple postings back about some experiences. Are you not going to share them? Too personal? I have read your bio, finally, and I think with your knowledge you have a lot to offer other practitioners that do and will be studying under you. You might want to begin integrating these ideas and methods into your teaching more. Or is it strictly personal? If I teach people how to work with animals I really try to cover almost all of the above. It is vital in my opinion and ultimately I think it is a natural reconnection to MA that few practice and many lost. Learning to kick someone’s butt is easy. Learning how to live a healthy, powerful, magical life is extraordinary.

Phoenix

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Where are you educated from? You write very well and have obviously studied a lot of concepts and theories. What was your major? Tell me more about yourself.

[Sam Wiley]

Regarding the experiences I mentioned, sometimes people on this board think I'm crazy enough. I just don't want to make them any more certain.;) I'll give you one example of an experience that I was told was good even though some people said my method of achieving the result was dangerous. I got hold of an obsidian mirror when I first began my qigong training, which I practiced for about a year before learning any Taiji. I was fond of practicing an exercise that was supposed to balance out tin and yang in the body. It always made me feel great. During one part of this exercise, we gather qi, moving the arms in circles. It is a motion that kind of looks like you are scooping water up with both hands and taking it to your mouth. I usually coupled this with some visualization, imagining actually drawing in qi and filling my dantien with it on the exhale, and then drawing more in and packing it on top of what I had gathered just before. Well, one day I set the mirror up on my altar as one of the centerpieces, and as I was faced the altar during my qigong practice every day anyway, I ended up facing this mirror. The correct way of "gazing" (for lack of a better term here) had me looking right into the mirror. Having used the mirror before for gazing (in which I had seen only a few different faces, but always the same ones) and projection, I decided to experiment as I was facing it anyway. I began my qigong that day with my three circle standing zen exercies, and instead of simply zoning out or visualizing the upper heavenly circulation, I began to draw in energy from the mirror on the i breath and send it out through the mirror on the out breath. I began to see a different face than the ones I had seen previously. And then several at once. After I finished this exercise, I continued on with my qi balancing exercise. But instead of simply imagining the qi I was drawing in coming from the aethyr in general, I visualized it as coming in from this mirror. I was taking in now, but not releasing it. When I finished the exercise, and used a fa-jing movement to close the energy gates of my body back up, I felt really wierd. I could barely walk, I could barely see, breathing was way too EASY.... So I went to my bed and layed down for a moment, trying to close my eyes and regain some normalcy. But it wouldn't go away, and when I opened my eyes, I looked out the window, and I saw the Earth breathing. Huge deep breaths. Everything was moving with Her breaths, and everything was breathing on its own as well. I had a realization that I just can't put into words in its totality, and to say that I saw the Earth that day as a single living sentient organism, with many parts, also alive and sentient, does not do it justice. But from that day on, the way I practice magic and the way I practice qigong both altered. And from that day on, I have had experiences with the internal, that I was later told by my teacher were glimpses into the infinite. I was also told later by my vampiric mentor that what I had done was a kind of cmmunion with the other side, and my sending in and taking out of the mirror of energy had attracted... well, They are another subject entirely. My journey into the internal began that day, and a great many areas of sensitivity, experimentation and exploration opened up before me.

Anyway, some of the other experiences I have had I am still processing or are not really for discussion here. I do not have any students right now who are knocking on the door of the internal, and so I am not sure if they would understand something like what I have gone through. Maybe one day I'll be able to talk with a student about it.

I know what you mean about power objects. I have a couple of objects that friends of mine will not touch. They are permanently marked as mine.

Believe it or not, though, I am pretty much self-educated. I taught myself how to read, how to write (I don't mean letters here, but how to write as in express on paper), and picked the subjects I studied on my own. I have been interested in the dark side since birth as a matter of fact. I can recall one incident when I was about 3 years old where I was telling my little brother about Satan and how sometimes he appears, and my father flipped out, I mean lost it. I have always believed that the dark forces in nature were supporting me. I just didn't know that there was a name for it until I was 9, when I wrote my own Satanic Bible. I had my own rituals with their own structure, my own prayers, and everything. When I was 12, I was given a copy of LaVey's book, and discovered others like myself were out there. In school, I never had to do homework or study to pass a test, as my memory was nearly photographic, and in high school, I never even had to take notes. Literature and history were like reliving past experiences to me. I only did mathematics because I had to to pass, but the concept was always pointless to me. I got kicked out of geometry class for telling the class that the teacher was wrong when she said a right triangle can have only one right angle, and proceeded to demonstrate why two-dimensional geometry would not work in a three-dimensional world, and relayed my own experiments which proved my point. I was told that that kind of thing was not taught in school. It was like the Christian religion's suppression of the discovery of the dodecahedron. Come to think of it, that would explain why the Christians hate Dungeons & Dragons so much; because the dodecahedron is a commonly used object in D&D. Anway, I have never been to college or university because I have never found one that teaches subjects that interest me or that have majors I would really like to explore. For the moment, I am content with studying on my own, and pick up books that interest me on various subjects. Currently, I am reading about Native American traditions and Buddhist beliefs, and am trying to pick up a bit of Xingyi from Sun Lu-tang's book.

[brucelee2]

Fascinating thread, fellows- very thought provoking and stimulating. Sam and Phoenix, you sound like very interesting fellows. This thread reminds me a bit of the book Beat Hotel- its about the years William Burroughs, Bryon Gyson (sp?) and others spent living in Europe. At one point they were heavily into scrying- Gyson once spent 36 hours straight staring into a special mirror and all kinds of stuff started happening- I think that's where the 'cut-up' technique started. Also, from this and drugs and other things they were doing, supposedly at this point Burroughs started to appear to others as an actual lizard-man- having the head of a lizard. I was musing about this thread earlier and thinking of other modes of accessing/encouraging the inner animal/primal self- diet and sex came to mind. Diet- eating (safe) raw meat with your hands, etc... Sex- becoming very open, uninhibited, and vocal (not words), especially at the point of orgasm.... As an actor and artist, this and other things are fascinating to me and I experiment with them and other 'ways of being' from time to time.

Sam, when you wrote words to the effect that you'd been interested in the dark side for many years, what did you mean by that? You don't strike me as being an evil person. Did you mean by 'dark side' what others would consider to be evil but actually is not? How old are you? Has anyone here ever checked out Vampire: The Masquerade in its live role playing game form or any other live role playing games? Sounds like you'd enjoy them. I haven't yet but I'd be interested to check it out- I've read a bit on 'em.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Thanks for the the experience. That story was good to read. As far as LaVey, I am familiar with him, but I do not follow his teachings. I have done a lot of work that would be in line with the things he delves into, however, just like Crowley, I read over the materials, absorb what applies to me and the research I do and then keep what works and leave the rest for someone else who may like to use it. With Vamperism, I also do not get too deep into their doctrinations. When I was a teenager I called myself a Satanist and I have since removed myself from that distinction. I do respect what your doing, don't get me wrong, its just that I found something 'less' focussed on dark - more towards balance. Wicca, is the name or title that most closely correlates to what I do. I work with both male and female, light and dark forces equaly. A lot of Wiccans say they understand about the dark/light energies, but they 'choose' to only study and practice the 'light' because the dark connotations implicate that the three fold law may apply to them in some negative way. I believe it is up to us to explore and challenge these internal aspects - while harming none. The three fold law in Wicca and Crowley's love under will, do apply. They can be paralelled - if you allow them to be. Crowley's problem is that he did become a bit of a flake factor so most folks in Wicca do not take his works seriously whereas I think he had a lot of important studies that do apply to the internal working we have been discussing. The same as LaVey - he cast a shadow on Wicca that most Wiccans rebelled from and most do not endorse his workings. I think he did some important studies and experiments - most would not dare challenge themselves. I am a challenger. I am not at all afraid to challenge the abiss. I do however, choose to look at things in conjunction with the five elements, God/dess, the four guardians etc. It is all a matter of choice through experience. I have been told to 'need' magic mushrooms to establish this link is a weekness. Well actually, the criminilization of certain things and the lost links we had with natural elements are the weakness that has been hurting our magical growth. One of the most important things I believe in is that all which is asked, is ultimately found within. If you cannot find the answers to the questions you seek, within, you will never find the answers without. Now, if you really believe this, then it is up to you to do the research and work on self discovery. Researching what others have already done is not a weakness - it means we can get to work quicker and further the research.

Where I live, we are surrounded by mountains and we have the four seasons. I have plans, once the snow melts, to travel to the mountain top for a few days of fasting and animal workings. I look forward to this. Fasting and the use of other tools helps promote the thinning of the veils where working can take place and be very effective. These types of workings promote great internal learning for myself. This whole Wiccai debate was not meant to seek followers or to make a quick buck - it was to make a physical commitment. It was a faith and dedication to something I have been working on for almost a decade now and it is still in its infancy. Having said that, I hope some day to have a few very able bodied serious individuals to train with in order to expand Wiccai. All things in time. I know it works, but people have to open to going inward.

Brucelee2
Now that I know who you are, welcome. As far as healing, I will send you a private e-mail to answer your questions. I will also send you my experiences with healing and where I am headed with it. Look forward to seeing you in person soon.

Phoenix

[Sam Wiley]

Bruce Lee2,
By "dark side," I mean those forces of nature responsible for change, and the methods of manipulating and directing those forces to manifest my will. Satan is a symbolic representation of those forces, many of which are to this day still considered "evil." It was my studies of these things that led to my studies in Dim-Mak.

I remember Vampire: the Masquerade. I bought a copy of the original rule book when it first came out because I loved vampire stories and stuff. I ended up trading it to a friend because no one else wanted to play the thing. And live action role-playing was limited to events like SOLAR. Nowadays, I see people playing the live role playing part of the game everywhere, and the game is on everyone's lips. I might still play it every once in a while had someone 10 years ago showed some interest in the game besides me. Truth is, I'm fed up with role-playing games. Role playing is much more fun when it's not a game.;)

Balance is very important. There is a duality to nature that cannot be denied. Those who do so stagnate their development. I don't see why anyone would purposely limit their development, but there are some out there. Maybe it's out of fear. Fear is most definitely a motivating factor, a trigger of certain behaviors and attitudes. But if you curse someone, and they deserve it, nothing harmful can come your way because the balancing forces of nature are doing right work in punishing that person. So what's to be afraid of? This isn't directed at anyone in particular, I'm just voicing an opinion.

I have some plans of my own that I am going to set in motion once weather and circumstances are right. If all goes well, within the next year or so, I'll be announcing the fruits of at least one of the projects. Hopefully, members of the martial arts community will be interested.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

[i]
I have some plans of my own that I am going to set in motion once weather and circumstances are right. If all goes well, within the next year or so, I'll be announcing the fruits of at least one of the projects. Hopefully, members of the martial arts community will be interested. [/B]



Anything that might interest me? If you ever want to bounce information off of me or ask me to attempt the application of some new technique, you can reach me privately if you wish. i would only give honest, true feedback based on my experience.

Regards

[Sam Wiley]

It's nothing in that vein, actually. It's more of a specialized product. But if I come up with anything technique or training method-wise, I'll definitely keep you in mind.:)

[Braden]

Phoenix - Just wanted to say how jealous I was that you live in Hope. I believe it's perhaps the most beautiful city in the world. I had no idea there was any martial arts community there at all.

Just as an aside, I once saw a wolverine directly assault a pack of wolves. Drove them off. Very stunning little creatures.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Braden Yes, Hope is an amazing place. We just received about 10 inches of snow last night. The kids love it (but it is hard to pull 4 at once on a sled!)

Amazing you were actually able to observe a wolverine in action. Pound for pound, perhaps the most ferocious on the planet. All things for a reason and you observed this for a reason. I'm jealous.

:rolleyes:
Phoenix