Tui Shou(push hands)whats your ojective in practicing its method?

[blacktaoist]

Peace All,

Most hardcore internal practitioners practice Tui Shou(push hands) or Kun Shou (rolling hands) is what most BaGuaZhang practitioners call this method. There are many different levels of training push hands for martial skills needed for self defense.

Each internal style have their own unique method of training and specific theory designed to make that particular method effective.

Most internal practitioners practice the traditional single arm push hands method first, then move on two double arm push hands. The purpose of these two methods is to help the practitioner cultivate the sticking and listening energy.

As my Yin style BaGuaZhang Teacher would say, a practitioner trains in push hands to make their body a living magnet.

I like to hear from all my internal borthers on how you guys train in this method?

What Tui Shou method you feel is better for your own body form, structure, personality and comprehension level. For example:

1. Single arm fix step push hands 2. Double arm moving step push hands. 3. Freestyle push hands.

4.what is your major objective in practicing push hands? From your own hard practice of push hands, have you invented new tactics to make your push hands techniques more efficient?

5. Do You feel your skill is on a good level, that you can up root any skill opponent?



:D

[prana]

Freestyle, both single and double hands.

To learn to feel the others movement, and learn to divert the energy to a point whereby it is subconscious. It also helps to learn how to fight close contact. It also emphasis the stance, positioninig, very subtle in my opinion.

[Shooter]

I only have a couple of dedicated partners who are interested in developing their sticking and following skills beyond an appreciation for the "quaint heritage" that push-hands entails for most.

Due to my remote location and lack of players who care to do more than dance, I have to play with a couple of Judo clubs in the area if I want total resistance. I have a couple of regular trainees who like to have that non-compliant element in their own training as well. I also get weekly visits from a bunch of Judoka, MMAers, and kickboxers who want more from their training, so it works out well.

Within the class-setting in my school, we do all types of wrestling both jacketed and non-jacketed. What we do isn't much different than what Judoka and BJJers do in their training. Sometimes we focus on specifics (positional control, throws/takedowns, fastest submission, first to submission, reversals, etc), and other times we do "marathon" for 40-60 minutes without stopping.

When we focus on the standing-phase, we usually wear street clothes/shoes and work on entry, throws, separation, recovery, etc. Most of the people I train have played hockey at one time or another, and it is a very popular sport here, so we like to work on the hockey-fight scenarios, grabs, and other basic drills.

In all of this is how I approach the ideas of CQC sticking, following, linking adhering, fa-jing, 8 Gates, weapon evasion/retention, and even form and postures. In answer to your question about major objectives, those are the things I want to understand first about my combative Tai Chi training.

We practice all the formats you listed, BT, but those formats contain the cooperative quality of the practice when I push with my push-hands partners per se. I've learned a lot from them about gaining deeper sensitivity and having good structure.

Maybe when I'm older I'll begin to lighten up a bit, but I'm naturally aggressive and athletic, so that's what I tailor my training to. That isn't to say that there's no sensitivity, I just don't let the other person get any impetus before I take action. I like to anticipate, and hit first. That's my undoing with the people who I practice the softer skills with.

I wouldn't say that I've invented anything new in terms of tactics, but I've rediscovered some pretty effective $#!+. ;)

I don't consider myself very advanced that I can uproot any skilled opponent, but I'm lucky to have one person to train with who's on a much higher level than myself when it comes to form and push-hands.

Still lots to learn...

[Water Dragon]

In Tui Shou proper, there is never force. You can practice it with force at times (and you do need to) but about 80 % of Tui Shou should be pure Yin. You start with freestyle so the student learns what yielding is, and not what he thinks it should be. After he gains some skill, you can go into four forms and single hand push to refine specific things.

TBT, you already know the model I follow for merging the Tui Shou with the San Shou. The same method can be applied to throwing. Add in entering skills, turn the volume way up and Voila!

[Water Dragon]

One more thing, I like to develop single techniques to a high level at the same time. Pure Yang for Pure Yin. Eventually, they merge into one big gloppy mess :D

[EARTH DRAGON]

I think for me is the opportunity to learn about myself. When I am pushing I am not as concerned about what my partner is doing as much as I am concerned about what I am doing. If I find my own weaknesses I feel like I will learn far more than knowing my partners. For every partner feels different but you reamin the same, so if you can figure out what your doing wrong you can prevent everyone else from figuring that out... great thread

[blacktaoist]

All you guys Replys was great.

Here is other question?

Do any of you guys feel that you have attained a level of heightened perception that develop from your push hands practice.

As you hardcore internal practitioners know Tui Shou develop more then sticking and listening energy. Tui Shou also developed and expand your field of awareness(subconscious awareness) Some internal masters that I know call this Shen Kung.


For you guys that don't know what I'm talking about? I'm talking about projecting Energy. When practicing push hands you will use your imagination (not daydreaming) to lead your mind's intent, and your mind's intent to lead the energy.

Maybe I'm getting a little to metaphysical ......

[bamboo_ leaf]

The basis for my push hands training is to learn to listen to force and from there what to do about it.

We play 2 hand free style.
For me it is the crucible of testing for my ability and understanding of TC.
I push in a park with a small group, where many people play TC.

Often we have others that ask to push. If your skills aren’t real or not to good you find out real fast, lot of gunslingers walking around.

The goal of the group is to explore the TC classics by direct experience. I have found that many of Meanings seem to be very literal. The eng. Ability o f the group is limited all speak Chinese so for me lessons learned are by direct experience nothing is theory.

The main point is to relax and the non-usage of force. Shen, yi, chi are real experiences
Not abstract meanings. Part of not using force is that the main purpose is to gain real listening skill, the other part is that the better players will throw you out or you can hurt your self..

If there is the thought of winning or pushing this tends to get in the way of developing the skill. Having said this people get pushed out 2 to 3 feet easily with out any force being felt for the most part. All players have been playing for at lest 10yrs or more. So it is not a case where these people don’t know what there doing.

The group has people from all major TC styles with the exception of Sun.

Some of the older Chinese men are quite surprising in their strength and ability, these guys can hurt you easily if they wanted to. The people who really have the skills that I have felt don’t really practice any type of tech, the idea is the same they listen follow and release. It sounds simple; with this simplicity you can be hurt very badly.

When I talk of listening the closest thing that comes to mind is feeling the intent of the push or action before it happens, following the motion and either unbalancing, throwing or locking up the other.

These actions are not what you want to do but rather a result of the others actions.

This is why I keep my mind very empty. This is also why for me the idea of fighting at this time implies a type of resistance that I seek to remove from my mind. I also think that it is why maybe some things that I write here may seem a little off base.

seek truth in practice, this is mine.

[bamboo_ leaf]

TBT,

yes this is excatly how we play, at this point i would say i have a very, very small skill in this. ;)

[EARTH DRAGON]

Funny you should touch upon this but we have an excersise that involves two people facing each other, one person closes their eyes and the other very slowly reaches out and touches either shoulder. The person with their eyes closed has to feel the intnet or the chi movement from the other person and respond by simply moving away from the direction of the hand. It is extrmely har dat first but the stronger ones intent is and the more intune you are with your surroundings the better you become. The hrd part is for beginngers is not to get into a guessing game and truley feel the disruption of concienness....

[NafAnal]

I have done something very similar in systema. with the same emphasis on feeling the intent. good stuff....

[EARTH DRAGON]

I agree it is good stuff, however it is difficult to instill the importance of the excersise to begginers for they have the tendancy to rush their strike and try to beat their opponent and when I tell them that the excersise is not to win but to understand they look puzzeled and just do it becuse they are asked and not really concentrate on why. I think that for new students the emphasis is placed on winng or beating and iut is not until a lelvel of maturity in the arts that you start to realize that you are your only opponent, and if you can conquer your self than eveyone else will be much easier.............

[Justa Man]

I think that for new students the emphasis is placed on winng or beating and iut is not until a lelvel of maturity in the arts that you start to realize that you are your only opponent, and if you can conquer your self than eveyone else will be much easier.............

good words ED (but your spelling on the other hand....). :D

[EARTH DRAGON]

Yes I know, I cant type for sh-it! I am old and never had a computer to type so I use dragon naturally speaking to type, and it has a lot or trouble with voice recongnition with certain sounds, unless you talk very slow. It does have a spell checker on it but it is a pain in the butt to use so I just submitt whatever comes out. I never thought I would be graded on my typing skills in a martial arts forum, but I guess if that is my only problem then I am lucky man.

PS if this were the english writing/ tryping forum I would be in trouble.........

[prana]

Originally posted by blacktaoist
For you guys that don't know what I'm talking about? I'm talking about projecting Energy. When practicing push hands you will use your imagination (not daydreaming) to lead your mind's intent, and your mind's intent to lead the energy.

Maybe I'm getting a little to metaphysical ......

My understanding of Shen-Gong is another throw around term but usually used as possession arts and sometimes to mean the deepest level of a living being training. Correct me if I am wrong, dont you mean "yi" ?

[Nexus]

The spiraling chin na pushing and yielding t'ai chi wombat!

[blacktaoist]

Prana) Correct me if I am wrong, dont you mean "yi" ?

B-t) I'm not talking about just the YI(wisdom mind.) The mind generated from the wise judgement, or YI ZHI(Will) or minds intent.

I'm talking more on Shen(spirit) level when practicing push hands.

The level of push hands practice I talk of is of the mysterious stages of heightened perception that can be achieved by practicing push hands and Shen Kung meditation.


Prana) My understanding of Shen-Gong is another throw around term but usually used as possession arts and sometimes to mean the deepest level of a living being training.

B-T) This Method I talk about have nothing to do with possession arts, but is of the deepests level of internal Martial art training. But I can see me and you are about on the same page.

The method of push hands is more on a Shen plane energy extension. When practicing push hands the internal practitioner is working with the extension of shen instead of ch'i to move and offset an opponent's physical body and affecting a person mentally, emotionally and spiritually. These are the methods that my Yin style teacher teach when we train in push hands.

There more levels to push hands then just having emptiness of mind and the use of no strength.

Man this is some deep$hit, but maybe I'm getting to metaphysical.............LOL

:D

[EARTH DRAGON]

I invite you to post a comment on my thread about 3 sacred practicies of tai chi, for it touches on the same type of level of understanding and non-understanding......

[blacktaoist]

Cool I take a look.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf


The basis for my push hands training is to learn to listen to force and from there what to do about it.




Great way to put it! Sensativity and flow. Perception of the flow of force does become more accute over time. To be pliant and unattainable; only to radiate at the correct moment.