Question about San Ti

[Sam Wiley]

I have a question about San Ti stance for all the Xingyi people. I have been told that different styles do it slightly different ways, but the only pictures I have seen of people in San Ti look the same. Anyway, I was wondering if several of you could give me some technical info on the posture, such as the correct position of the feet, weight distribution, etc. I plan to add Xingyi to my repetoire some time in the future and in the meantime I would like to study San Ti. I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly. Also, could any of you give me a little info about the stepping methods of Xingyi, maybe some comparisons between them and similar stepping methods in Bagua or Taiji?

Thanx.

[PlasticSquirrel]

sure thing, sam. santi is probably the coolest thing in xingyiquan. it looks deceptively-simple, but it is actually very powerful. when you decide to take up xingyiquan, you will be very pleased with it. it is not nearly as brazen and simple as many people superficially think it to be.

the differences that you are liable to see are usually small. things that are most noticable are the distance of the feet from eachother, the angle the hips are twisted at, whether the rear hand is closed or open, and weight distribution. these are quite small differences, besides the hip direction, so you don't need to worry about the differences very much.

for the rear foot positioning, you should imagine a straight line going from your baihui down to your yongquan cavities in your feet. this distributes the majority of the weight on your back leg. the front foot is placed as far as it will go in front of your back leg (this will not very very far at all) without changing your weight distribution. make sure that your front leg is bent, and not sunken down, as well. there are no real weight distribution numbers. when you keep the vertical line of weight distribution everything else goes into place. this weight distribution on one leg is referred to in the classics as the "chicken's legs".

the hips twist so you face directly forward. this twisting of the body is what the classics refer to as the "dragon's body".

the hands are held upward so there is a bit of strain in the wrists, and the fingers should be spaced out a bit. this is called the "eagle's claws".

the back should be stretched, and the chest relaxed by rounding the shoulders forward. this is called "bear's shoulders".

these are a few of the rudimentary characteristics of santi.

as for stepping, there are a few stances that are used very regularly, and then a few that are not used very often. the stance that you see in santi is the main one. the next is done by rotating the leading foot outward 45 degrees. the next is practiced by placing the rear foot next to the leading foot (albeit slightly behind it). other stances are not used nearly as often. all stances are generally quite high, though, except for the scissors stance and the lowered stance in the snake form.

there is only so much i can type, though, so i'd head over to:
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan
to get my fix of xingyiquan. best site around, in my opinion. it's a treasure chest of information on xingyiquan, as well as practitioners much better than myself. ;)

[Braden]

Sam - Do you work with Erle's 'guard posture' from bagua? It seems to me to be _very_ much like santi practice. I'm not sure if Erle does, but my teacher suggests working with it as a stationary qigong after a few years with exposure to the standard eight palm standing qigong. Xie Peiqi's Dragon Bagua system has essentially the same practice. Do you work with the 'cross-stepping post' at all? I love that exercise; it really shows how to pull everything you need straight out of the guard. I think sometimes if someone extensively drilled the energies in the guard and the simple inside change (I'm just beginning to understand now how the inside change trains the 'pull to push' 'push to pull' ideas of power generation from the center - I feel like I should have realized it the first time I did it! I played with it uncoiled - ie. facing along the circle instead of into center - and it all clicked), they would understand everything in bagua.

Anyway, just parallels between what we do and xingyi. :)

[Sam Wiley]

Thanx guys. I appreciate your help.

Braden,
I have used a standing on guard posture as qigong before, if that's what you mean. It seems to raise a lot of yang energy. I love the cross stepping post as well. Also, I have taken bits of the circle walking, specifically the inside change, and used them as training methods. Like having your partner stand opposite you as if you were going to practice push hands, and simply thrust the 8 palms toward each other swivelling on the heels.

My problem with San Ti is that I am so used to holding a bow stance that having my front heel in line with my rear ankle, as detailed in the introduction to Sun Lu-Tang's book on Xingyi by his daughter Sun Jian-Yun, feels wrong. Thus my question about weight. It is obvious from the pictures that Sun's weight is not totally on his rear foot, but I'm afraid to put any significant weight on my front foot with footing like this because I broke my left knee a few years ago, and doing stances too thin gives me severe pain and a limp. On the other hand, bow stances cause no discomfort.

The reason I asked about stepping is because, I want to do Taiji stepping when trying to practice Pi quan, stepping straight forward. But I have done this step so much with a wider stance that I have to strain not to widen my stance as I step.

So I have a few more questions. Like I said, I was told that some people, though I've never seen this, do San Ti a different way. Is it okay if I do San Ti as a bow stance, or is there a specific reason the stance is so narrow that I cannot ignore? Also, as far as stepping goes, Is the same stance width used for all the fists, or just Splitting? Do any of the others use, for instance, a bow stance, or are they all strictly stepping into and out of San Ti?

I guess what I'm asking is if it's okay to practice Xingyi exercise more like Taiji.

[maoshan]

Peace Sam,

While I didn't pay that much attention to learning my Sifu's Xing-I,
San Ti/Choy was apart of his fundamental training curriculum.

I don't think there's too much you can do about the narrowness of the stance. The front foot lined up with the back ankle is the norm I think. I've never seen any variation on this.
How ever Kenny Gong's San Choy is different from any other i've seen. And it's with the hands.
The back hand is instead held in a fist, high against the chest with the elbow tight to the body.
As to the weight distribution, I was taught 60-40 and as you get better 70-30 Start light just be consistant.

I had to do San Ti/Choy for an hour for 6 months when I began.
I gained much. I think even more than from the Embrace posture.
I don't teach it much any more. Most can't stand it. taught right,
san Ti requires more work to keep the alignment and most are Lazy, Oh well....


I hope this helps you out Sam
Peace
Maoshan

[Ray Pina]

Back leg: Hip to knee is a vertical line to the ground: |, but from knee to heel you want a pushing angle like this /. The more extreme that angle the more push you will have. Think pushing a car, what angle is your body on: / but more extreme, you want that angle from knee to heel on back leg.

Fron leg: From heel to knee you want \. Think pulling.

Now, outstreched hand, elbow down, palm pushing out, fingers wide.

Other hand is tucked down into your dantien, palm out, fingers wide.

Hold for at least 20 min.

You really need a teacher for this, and a good one. Its the little things that make a difference. And, its applications.

Big mistake, you always see guys stomping the floor, like to make a big noise, oooo the power. Yea, its going into the floor.

The push in the step should be going out, towards the oponant, not down, into the floor. Drilling fist comes from here, a lot comes from here.

I love this.

Really, you need to find a teacher.

[Sam Wiley]

Maoshan,
Okay, i'll see if I can just deal with the stance. Don't want to be thought of as lazy.;) And thank you for the info on Kenny Gong's stance. I like open palms better, and open armpits as well, though.

Evolution Fist,
In Bagua we have a Classic that tells us how to twist the body to face the center, and part of it is to pull inward with both feet (Well, the front foot has not weight on it, but it acts as if pulling). This makes mud stepping easy and keeps the body rear weighted and in alignment. Is it the same as in Bagua, or is the opposite done in San Ti? Or is it what we call "sending and receiving, as in Taiji? You describe both pulling something and pushing, so are the feet trying to push apart? I would imagine that if the rear foot were more substantial with this, then when the front foot was lifted, the body would rocket forward and upward, and the only thing necessary would be to angle the foot for the step. I guess that would make people think they had to stomp as well. Is this correct or incorrect? Obviously, I can't help but experiment with it.

[RickMatz]

There is a very nice article about basic Xing Yi stepping, by Ken Fish, on the emptyflower website.

On the links page of emptyflower, there is a link to something called "pan gen," which is an article about XY stance training, and stepping exercises.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

[Ray Pina]

You definitely want to be rear weighted, I'll be realistic and say 80/20 -- emphasis on the back. But the potential to pull, or better yet, not be pulled is there because the pulling angle is there \ on the front foot.

Knee behind the ankle in front foot with light to no weight.

[PlasticSquirrel]

re: if you can practice xingyiquan stepping more like taijiquan stepping.

yes, at first you can, if you mean slowly and carefully. in fact, most advanced practitioners practice xingyiquan a little slower and more carefully. eventually, though, you will move on to be harder with your movements, and more vigorous before this happens, including the footwork.

the best thing you can do is santi right now. even without your prior injury, you still have some difficulty with the stance angles and heights. the best thing you can do is to practice san ti to get different parts of your legs stronger and more stable in the stance. then you will be able to practice stepping better. in the meantime, though, go for the more relaxed, slower practice, and practice san ti.

i should note that footwork corresponds exactly to the other movements, so try to keep everything in sync. it goes with the six harmonies. six harmonies are there to make you strike with the whole body. i learned this lesson later than i would have liked to, so keep syncronized (sp?) movements in mind, even when you're practicing slowly.

re: stomping the feet

it's hard to describe, because it's different for many movements, even though the stances may be the same. the six harmonies require you to move your feet the same way you move your hands. the footwork is heavy and hard for many steppings, but once you get them right, it feels like the whole body is doing the movement. when i'm just practicing normally, i usually stomp quite a bit, but when i'm doing really good, i barely stomp at all. maybe i'm breaking through to something? it feels just as powerful, but more swift.

[les paul]

yes, you are!!!!!

go with it......

Remeber small circle compression/contraction The Yin and the Yang of the movement.

Move and be one with your Yi through the "Xing" and remeber think "what it is to be an element"

Are you strong like Pi?

Do you flow like Zuan?

Are you rooted? Do you Beng?

Can you explode like Pao?

Are you everything like Heng?

Paul Calugaru

[Sam Wiley]

Again, guys, thank you for your input.

Evolution Fist,
I like the 80/20 idea better. It feels more natural to be weighted that way.

Plastic Squirrel,
Thank you, I'll keep the synchronization in mind.

I notice in Sun's book that he mentions several times rising, drilling, falling, and overturning. Now, this is familiar to me from Baguazhang. While I have always been under the impression that Xingyi was linear, these movements when I learned Bagua were done with tight spirals. So do the hands spiral in the movements from Xingyi?

Thanx.:)