Why Gong Fu sucks (2002)

[Water Dragon]

My boy is gonna start working out with me. He's a BJJ Blue Belt and just got back doing two weeks with Royler out in Brazil. First, I explained what we do a little. Then I explained that we are a little rougher than most Gong Fu schools and he's gonna get hurt on occasion.

His reply?

"It's cool Bro, I broke my shoulder after my first BJJ lesson, I came back in about a month."

He's gonna make a helluva Shaui Chiao player. He has the one thing that can't be taught. HEART

I'll let you figure out what the thread title means. You can also figure out if this thread applies to you or not ;)

[Xebsball]

Broken shoulder?

Yeah whateva dud, i almost had my right arm cut off when i was 9 years old. Its actually almost not sensitive on the area where i have this total bad ass scar.

To break a shoulder the person training with him must have made something stupid or he refused to tap.
Like i saw on tv this jiujitsu girl saying that one time she put this dude on a lock, it was his first class and he refused to tap because he couldnt accept losing to a girl. He ended up hurting his arm and she says he never came back.

[Black Jack]

I don't think Water Dragon's post was on the topic of who is tougher than who by how many scars they have but on how some people tend to have heart in their training.

In my opinion heart or gameness is something you are born with and not something you learn.

Look at what the old soliders accomplished in the wars of our past, WWI, WWII, Vietnam, under equipped, disadvantaged and against all odds they still past the muster.

Look at the firefighters and police officers in the Sept 11th attacks.

Those people had heart.

Does this guy have heart, I don't know but I don't think his point was as you took it. I could be wrong of course.

Cheers,

[Water Dragon]

He forgot to tap. It was his first class. Anyway, he got his blue now, and I'm on the class.

Another thing I noticed. Most BJJ guys have no opinion what so ever on Gong Fu. They really just don't pay attention to it. His three main questions were:

1. What's it like (NHB with a bunch of cool training methods that you do on your own time)

2. Why hasn't it come out yet (We talked about the Chinese culture and why they really don't care)

3. What's up with this "too deadly to use stuff (I laughed at that one)

So basically, it's the internet freaks that are coming here. The BJJ guys (and NHB guys) just don't know.

[diego]

i dont know why people are tripping,look at royces frame agianst ufc bigdudes,is that not wingchun or oldman pakua flavor,using superoir mechanics,to work the biggest machine+2ounces to move a thousand pounds type steello.

[Xebsball]

I'm a nice person but i needed to post bad ass stuff.

Sorry, but thats what happens when i have no porn or decent form of entretainment availible. I just cant download porn from my mothers new computer...

Youre right on the no opionion thing.
This bjj friend asked me what is it like when i only had introductory class. I couldnt answer cos there were a bunch of people talking around, just tons of stuff, noise and stuff, people talking at the same time someone else asked me something someone else pulled me to other side...

[Brad Souders]

My friend not all BJJ/NHB fighters don't know. I respect this style just as much as i do BJJ. If i didn't then i could never truely be open minded. Yes i've trained BJJ and yes i've done a couple MMA type matches but i also learn about other arts. Tradition wise i don't care for that but i do care for the effective parts of the art.

[Water Dragon]

It's cool Brad. It wasn't a comment directed in a bad way. I think the same applies to a lot of CMA guys. They know what BJJ is, but they have no idea what it's about.

[Brad Souders]

I can understand that i guess my only advantage was i also train with a Wing Chun guy which allows me to play with their tools also. Some people in both BJJ and Kung Fu just get caught up in ego and not in reality.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, that's true. From what I've seen, the really good Gong Fu guys are interested in anything that works: Chinese, Western, Indonesian, Japanese, they don't care. If you show them something and they like it, they want more, regardless of the source.

[diego]

didnt even flip the xebster off:mad:

[Xebsball]

Yes, when they feel that chil on their spine they know its time to back off. Not too many people can just flip out and kill me.

:D

[Water Dragon]

Naw, I explained the story as I was told it. No need to start a little flame war. This has the possibility to be a good thread so far, why ruin it? I'm really excited at my friend coming in. Think about the situation here: We have a technically sound, martially proficient individual trained in BJJ. He want to starts competing in NHB, but has ABSOLUTELY NO STAND UP EXPERIENCE. He is going to learn stand up from CMA. Imagine what's going to happen when he figures out how to link the Shuai Chiao throws into BJJ subs. Do you understand what the CMA community can learn if we watch? I already explained to him how the traditional methods work, he' intrigued. I was able to explain to him in terms of BJJ> Example: Single posture forms are like the lifting of the hip in an armbar. They train parts of the tech that are so simple, a lot of people miss them, but without them, the technique just wont work. You do this and run the tech relentlessly at the same time. Then you fight with it. He loves it.

[Brad Souders]

Just make sure your friend explores every aspect. One bad thing i've found with some BJJ guys at that level are they only work on being good at one or two things on the ground and the rest of their games suffers. Hopefully this is just something i've picked up off a few select fighters and your friend is very well rounded on the ground. Tell him good luck in MMA been there done that!!! And also make sure the cardio is there ;)

[Water Dragon]

Cool as $hit!!!!
Any pointers? Anything in particular that helped you? Anything special make you just understand the Chinese methodologies?

[Brad Souders]

One thing i like to do for training is have a group of say five or six people all with 8 to 16 ounce gloves on. Those people are allowed to use any strike they want and the guy training for the fight is only allowed to defend and takedown. Anyone can throw a punch but learning to recieve on is a diferent story. Also get a pair of gloves they wear in MMA grappling with those makes a huge difference because of the glove getting in the way of subs. Best of luck and if you have any questions feel free to ask.

[Ray Pina]

I love all this BJJ/Gung Fu/NHB controversy. Funny. Whatever works use, whatever doesn't, look at why, fix it, or get rid of it.

I was under the impression though that the Gracies and BJJ have been having a hell of a time, that folks are learning how to deal with them, actually have now for some time. Doesn't take anything away from them though, from what I've seen and heard, they are training hard, and keeping it real.

Lots of Kung Fu sucks. Most of Tae Kwon Do does, lots of bad karate and I'd assume that there's a lot of bad BJJ, but would even gues not so much as the others percentage wise. Why? Because they specialize, not so much crap getting in the way. For that, I give them a big thumbs up.

And, congrats for having a son to train with. Must be nice. A dream I have for myself in the future. Just need to accompish a few things before I settle all the way down. Living with my girl is more then enough for now.

[Ra|ek]

I don't blame him for wanting to lear Kung Fu, it is a much better self defence system. Nothing against BJJ, I used to train in it myself.

EvolutionFist is right, all the gracies did is catch the MA comunity off guard and made an impression, truth is, now that we have seen and learned to defend against it BJJ is no were near as affective as it was in the start. There are just too many things to considr when fighting to limit it to ground fighting. Good luck and it is allways good to expand your training.

[Brad Souders]

First off if you really want to look at it in a way Gracie JJ and BJJ are two different things. Gracie JJ imo is just the basic foundation for BJJ. As for me wanting to learn Kung Fu LOL. I never intended to learn any style. I like to train with as many different styles as possible to learn their strong and weak points. Too call me a BJJ guy is also incorrect because i've also trained in Judo and Sombo. I guess i would probably fall into the hybrid MMA stylist. Though i do enjoy training with Kung Fu guys and that's why i respect the opinions of this board.

[Ra|ek]

Originally posted by Brad Souders
First off if you really want to look at it in a way Gracie JJ and BJJ are two different things. Gracie JJ imo is just the basic foundation for BJJ. As for me wanting to learn Kung Fu LOL. I never intended to learn any style. I like to train with as many different styles as possible to learn their strong and weak points. Too call me a BJJ guy is also incorrect because i've also trained in Judo and Sombo. I guess i would probably fall into the hybrid MMA stylist. Though i do enjoy training with Kung Fu guys and that's why i respect the opinions of this board.

I ment Water Dragon's boy. I should have been more specific.

[Sharky]

just get the porn man, it'll make you feel better, it'll make everything A-OK

[Brad Souders]

No problem ;)

[once ronin]

gong fu and bjj should be 2 categories. do a fight to the death match and bjj will lose.

bjj will have or not have their kimono on. the gong fu guy will be standing there with 2 knives.

[Brad Souders]

LOL @ the BJJ guy with his gi. I've trained BJJ on and off for eight years and only twice have i ever trained with a gi on. BJJ is what you make of it. Too me and maybe i'm wrong your still baseing theories from Royce Gracie fighting 7 yrs ago in a gi and now you think all BJJ guys have to wear them. But who knows sometimes i just look into things to deep. ;)

[Xebsball]

Hey i got some softcore stuff going on right now, today i feel better already.

But i cant get the hardcore stuff, its like taboo you know.

[diego]

how tall are you,how you train:confused:

[Xebsball]

My height is 1,88 - 1,89 meters

Thats 6,2 foot acording to the convertors on the www

My training is very slacking right now.
I'm at my parents house and its been a month since i dont train.

Idealy its ment to be:

- 1 hour cardio 5 times a week (my doctor told me to, its to lose weight)
- 1 hour kung fu 3 times a week
- 20min to 40min qigong every day

My new plan for like 3 months from when i return home would be:
same as before but:
- make qigong twice a day instead of one
- more intense cardio
- add tai chi 2 times a week or more kung fu
- add regular heavybag training

[Stacey]

Wait, your son called you bro? Is this incestuous or is he your boy as in "Mate/friend"

[Order]

I am new to this board. And with $hit like this I had to respond. I sugest you quit whatever CMA you do and do Yoga for health and Bjj for fighting if thats the way you think. The way you are now, training CMA but saying it doesnt work is bad for the art, bad for the other pratcioners, bad for the sifus that work hard.

"Hey i heard you do martial arts, thats really cool"
"Yeah, i do kung fu that doesnt work, it sucks for fighting and gets defeated all times"
You'd look stupid doing that, man.

My kung fu works for me, if yours dont, quit doing it.


I lived in Brazil for 20 something years and never heard about it. Even if it's true (what I doubt) (would you name the place and the time that real Kung Fu?), 90% of KF in Brazil is fake. All I can say is I never lost, and my teacher never lost to. No shame in losing, but we never did. BJJ, Muai Thay, Kick boxing, Full contact, Karate, Judo, Kung Fu, we fought them all, and we knocked them ALL.

2 - I am VERY sorry to hear that you have to go through history books to find someone that won a fight with your style. Man...what can I say.... do yourself some good and go learn Xing Yiquan.

Unhappylesslly, kung-fu is a lie. Because kung-fu does not exist,
kung-fu is a nickname invented by westrens to denominate to hability for chinese people in fighting with or without weapons which only means skill attained in anything through hard work. Chinese boxing is the closest term we have to describe what we do. The goal of Chinese boxing in general and Hsing I in particular is to attack an opponent, or defend against one, in as expedient a manner possible to take him out. Eye gouging, windpipe destruction and breaking of joints and bones are the most common techniques. Obviously, these have no place in a sporting event.

In the beginning of the MMA scene, there were a few representatives from Chinese styles who performed poorly. But you have to realize, they used completely inappropriate techniques such as opening with kicking. How stupid is this with a grappler!

A real streetfight has guns, knives, sticks, tables, chairs, parked cars, brick walls etc... involved. it is nothing like 2 guys with tights running around in a little caged boxing ring. oh not to mention multiple attackers, methinks Chinese boxing addresses this. hmmm.....

It seems to me as if you owe it to yourself to do a little more research into Traditional Chinese boxing before dismissing it. If Hsing I didnt work, the Peoples Republic of China would not currently employ it as their main CQB system, now would they!

Why is it that some practitioners of arts specializing in grappling arts always make the erroneous assumption that the rest of us will be completely unprepared, taken to the ground, and either pummelled into submission or have something broken? We are ready for them, we have surprises waiting for them so that the first strike takes them completely out of the offensive mindset.

Keep in mind a UFC bout not too long ago when a ground-n-pounder by the name of Mark Coleman got his ass handed to him by a much smaller man named Maurice Smith. Smith was primarily a striker but survived on the ground long enough to get back on his feet and open a jumbo-sized can of whoopass on Coleman.

The tradition of Kung Fu some people here refer to as only a tradition, is the ability to kill a man with or without weapons. Chinese boxing is not a dance(at least not the traditional variety). These arts were used for at least 300 years in life and death battlefield situations to survive. When compared to the more recently developed sports(notice the term sports) such as mixed martial arts , one only has to research a little history to see that styles such as Hsing I has proven itself as combat effective over a far longer time span than the previously mentioned style.

[Xebsball]

Dude,

Who are you and why are quoting me, Tadzio and Bruno from emptyflowers?

[Xebsball]

And by the way...

Youre scaring the **** outa me.
But that doesnt mean im sudenly not a bad ass anymore.

[African Tiger]

but I really loved Gong Fu back in the 70's. Chuck Berris was the best tv sifu around. :D

[Black Jack]

Where is the codified data which states that hsing is being used as Chinas main CQB system.

Which branch, what unit, where is the info?

I do know from Roveres sight that a cut-down and streamlined hsing system was taught to the Chinese soliders in the 1920's but what are you in reference to?

[Water Dragon]

Maybe you should go back and re-read this thread. Maybe the second time around you can figure out what I'm really saying. It sure went over your head the first time :p

[SevenStar]

"A real streetfight has guns, knives, sticks, tables, chairs, parked cars, brick walls etc... involved. it is nothing like 2 guys with tights running around in a little caged boxing ring. oh not to mention multiple attackers, methinks Chinese boxing addresses this. hmmm..... "

:rolleyes:

[feluk]

My boy is gonna start working out with me.
He's a BJJ Blue Belt and just got back doing two weeks with Royler out in Brazil.
First, I explained what we do a little.
Then I explained that we are a little rougher than most Gung Fu schools and he's gonna get hurt on occassion .

He's reply ?

It's cool bro,I broke my shoulder after
my first BJJ lesson ,I came back in about a month.
He's gonna make a helluva Shuai Chiao .
He had the one thing that can 't be taught.
Heart
I'll let you figure out what thread title means.
You can also figure out if this thread applies to you or not.

Water Dragon ,

I'm just sharing with you my input towards your topic.
I have deep respect for BJJ ,but did it ever occur to you that jujutsu actually came out of an old chinese technique called China Na.

And plus I agree with you that there are some kung fu schools out there that are ,not as tough as BJJ.
But not all kung fu schools are like that,in the world of the CMA .
You must do those exercises to develop the power in your kung fu techniques.

And shuai Chiao is the chinese art of throwing.
And I'm not trying to start a new flame,
all I'm saying is before you put down CMA ,think about where your art had evolved.
Shuai Chiao is part of the CMA.
Or did mean Judo the japanese art of throwing.

Heart is good to have to,but more importantly the philosophy of the art that you practice is also important too.
As well as the discipline itself is what makes you a humble person.

In the world of the martial arts today,theres always going to get people who are better than you.
So just be humble,if you are ego,you 're
going to fall flat on your face.

There sifus out there who make CMA look bad.
But not all sifus are like that.

Take Care,

[Water Dragon]

What I’m saying is, with the way a lot of people train, they’ll never have any thing worth while. If you look at the post, I say my friend is gonna make a helluva a Shuai Chiao player because he has heart. He understands that on occasion, he’ll get hurt. He’ll have the wind knocked out of him regularly. There will be busted lips and black eyes on occasion. Hopefully he wont break something, but the possibility exists.

That’s just how it is. You can create a safe environment, or you can create an effective environment. You can’t really have both. If you can accept the idea that you will get hurt and then train hard, in accordance with the traditional tools, you will get good. Otherwise, you will not.

The reason Gong Fu sucks in 2002, is that too many practitioners are unwilling to accept the pain and hard work that are essential to solid training. If they never eat the bitter, how can they taste the sweet?

[scotty1]

You're making me nervous man...:)

[scotty1]

Surely safety and effectiveness can be compromised?

And nobody say "we don't compromise our effectiveness" because if you have always got broken knees, arms, fractured ribs etc. then you're not going to be very effective are you?

[Merryprankster]

Scotty1,

Within reason. Boxing injuries and Thai boxing injuries and Judo injuries happen all the time, and do so within the context of "safe."

What he's saying is you can have an environment devoid of occasional full contact, continuous sparring with appopriate safety gear and precautions, which is "safe," and none-to-effective,

Or, you can have the full contact, continuous sparring with appropriate measures, run the moderate risk of injury, and know that what you do will work on somebody who doesn't want you to do it.

[Water Dragon]

Thanks MP

[SevenStar]

"The reason Gong Fu sucks in 2002, is that too many practitioners are unwilling to accept the pain and hard work that are essential to solid training. If they never eat the bitter, how can they taste the sweet?"

exactly.

[Felipe Bido]

The reason most Kung Fu sucks is because the so-called "kung fu" students only practice forms, 30 minutes a day, and then they claim to be "too lethal" :rolleyes:

"I've practiced my tiger claw today 10 minutes...Ok, MMA sucks and I can rip your heart out!"

For God's sakes, the very name "Kung Fu" says it all: An ability that you gain through hard work and constant practice. That seems to be forgotten today.

[KC Elbows]

I don't think this phenomenon is new. I'll bet the same could've been said in 1902, 1802, 1602, etc. There will always be 2% salmon and 98% chum.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
I don't think this phenomenon is new. I'll bet the same could've been said in 1902, 1802, 1602, etc. There will always be 2% salmon and 98% chum.

OK, now we're talking. How does that account for the repeatable success by some schools then? Boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, i.e. the Combat Sports? Perhaps having a venue where they can use their skills increases the desire and tolerance for hard training?

[MonkeySlap Too]

IGOR!! Release the kites! Bwahahahahahaaa

[KC Elbows]

Good point WD. I would imagine there's a million mediocre boxers out there, as its a very common art. However, many more are practicing it, so there are a lot more chances that a good boxing coach will find a good dedicated student. The succes is of good boxers, not boxing. I know I've seen a number of boxing matches involving good boxers fighting total duds. But you are right, having a venue to use their skills helps a lot, though the venue is not necessarily superior to fighting at the gym they come from. I'd imagine a million amazing boxing matches occur without being seen by the public, just a couple a palookas sparring around for the heck of it. As far as the opportunity to fight, the same goes for muay thai, bjj, judo, etc.

However, with bjj, there probably aren't as many bad schools or practitioners, as its a smaller group, and still very tight in comparison to the older arts. Plus, it is a good art.

Judo has plenty of lousy practitioners, so competition does not mean that judo practitioners are the best. Still, its a good art, so one could become good in it.

Muay thai is insanity. I think its quite the cool art. Again, competition gives the opportunity for application of the techniques.

Kung fu has sanshou, and there's some fine sanshou fighters.

Not just any boxing gym puts out championship material. Same with judo schools, and I would imagine bjj and muay thai schools are the same as well. Only the really good schools put out really good fighters, except for an occassional prodigy.

So, competition under a really good school of any style will do a lot to make a really good fighter, but it won't make you a badass knife fighter, or be able to use anything as a weapon, and it won't guarantee you'll be able to deal with every street situation.

The alternative to cometition is getting in a lot of challenge matches. And doing a lot of fight training with your teacher, your peers, and your betters to make a good fighter out of you, but you'll never win any medals or be called the champion.

So, whatever way you train, you need to supplement your training with more training and more training if you want to be able to deal with anything the world is gonna throw at you.

[bamboo_ leaf]

They succeed because they are things people can see and measure and also are promoted as such.

I didn’t see Bando, excrima, selait and many others mentioned on that list.

Would anyone argue these arts lack effective and hard training.
there are many CMA schools that offer very tough training that are not promoted and don't care to be.

i think you train to your level, ability and more importantly desire.
not everone can do it or achive it. nor wants it.

this is why i feel its very improtant to have a clear and relistic idea of why and what your training for. for some it may be entering into these events.

for others it be mastering their art consistent with there beilfes and expections of what mastering it is.

in either case its "kung fu" time and effort = skill.

[Order]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Where is the codified data which states that hsing is being used as Chinas main CQB system.

Which branch, what unit, where is the info?

I do know from Roveres sight that a cut-down and streamlined hsing system was taught to the Chinese soliders in the 1920's but what are you in reference to?

ckeck it out

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/militaryxingyi.html

[Felipe Bido]

Please answer Xebsball question ;)