Are competitions realistic?

[David Jamieson]

Do you find that when you watch any of these events that the fighters seem poorly skilled overall.

Undoubtedly, there are fighters in these events that are very good fighters, striking and grappling.

But overall, do you see a lot of bad form in uhb nhb type competitions?

or

Do you think these events are the pinnacle of martial arts today and the fighters are mostly good?

what do you think?

peace

[wushu chik]

Kung Lek, are you talking just NHB stuff, or are you talking ALL competitions??

[Brad Souders]

Now a days all the big events have really good fighters. The reason the form looks off is due to the speed of the competion. I have a pretty good shot but when it came down to the high speed of the fight i took a straight roundhouse kick to the head cause of the nature of instincts kicking in before reasoning.

[David Jamieson]

I'm talking about competitions wherein the combat is full contact.

Much like a boxing match, where you see excellent form in the fighters quite often, or at least 80+% of the time.

I am not refering to forms competitions or point sparring.
While these latter types of competitions have purpose, full contact ring fighting is one step above point sparring and one step below street altercations in the spectrum of realistic use of a martial art. imho

peace

[Black Jack]

But would it really be considered bad form if it got the job done and you were the one who walked away the victor/survivor.

By that I mean if the punch that knocked the guy out was a bit sloppy but it still knocked the guy out, is it still considered bad form?

[David Jamieson]

It's relative to what the venue says the venue will be.

peace

[Merryprankster]

Kung Lek,

Boxing has a high level of skill, true... but I might point out that there are different sorts of boxers out there that have been very successful:

Rocky Marciano was clearly less pretty to watch than Ali. Both were great fighters

Watch Sakuraba, and you see a pretty slick style. Watch Couture and you'll see an equally effective, but somewhat more 'blocky' type of style. Not as slick, but certainly equally as effective.

I would say the reason that NHB stuff looks ugly sometimes is because fights are ugly. Footwork, bob and weave, etc, which is so pretty and neat to look at in boxing, will get you kneed in the face and taken down in an MMA fight. Because of this, the "slickness," of some things is less apparent, and it's just not as pretty to look at.

Unfortunately, we confuse "slick looking," with "skill," rather frequently in the MA world, when skilled is actually "being good at what works for you." A skilled 'ground and pound,' isn't slick looking, but certainly requires a certain set of martial skills.

[David Jamieson]

ground and pound seems more "desperate" than "skilled".

for instance, if you applied the methods of grace employed in boxing to the entirity of your arsenal, would this not produce a fighter that had holistic skill and could still make an "ugly fight" something that you can watch and go "ahhhhh, I see that" as opposed to "ahhhhh, did you see that!".

see what i'm sayin? :D

luck is too big a factor in the semi pro venues, the fights are ugly because the fighters fight ugly.

I've seen K1 fights that exhibted great skill in martial arts. Granted, both these types of martial competition have rules applied to them, even when they say they are "no holds barred" and "ultimate" and "no rules" there are rules at play, but the K1 fighters go through a lot to rank into the comps they hold.

I've seen a lot of -not quite there- fighters getting in the ring in a good deal of the mma matches out there.

And yes, I do think that there are pretty good fighters in all venues really, to me, it just seems that there are more poor fighters in the sensationalist bouts.

peace

[qeySuS]

well it all depends on what the MMA guy specializes in, many wrestlers use the ground and pound simply because they are great at takedowns and gaining a good position, learn some rudimentry striking and you got an effective style.

I often see the lack of grace in MMA but that's usually in the standup, i'm hoping this will change in the next 3-5 years, i've yet to see a VERY good kicker in MMA, i've seen a highlight video from a guy that was really good at kicking and i heard he'll be entering pride soon so we might be seeing some great kicking in a major event there. You often see some good boxing in MMA events but as pointed out before you gotta be extra careful when boxing because you'll get taken down, if someone is owning you on the feet he tries to go to the clinch and take him down, i think Vitor Belfort is a good example of a good boxer in MMA. Then of course the former topten boxer Stephen Oullet recently started MMA, only has one fight under his belt but that was a KO in 10 seconds. Reason for seeing more boxing then kicking is propably that it takes longer to get good at kicking and feel comfortable kicking at all ranges whilest most people are used to conventional boxing and it doesnt take long for them to get the basics down and improve from there. This is propably the reason you see leg kicks all the time in MMA but the same people often never throw mid/high kicks. It's simple you dont need a lot of skill/flexibility to do low kicks.

Overall i love watching MMA, and yes i think it's a good representation of "real" fighting and shows who's the most skilled. I love the video of when Jon Hess fights Vitor Belfort. Jon Hess claiming that he can beat anyone under a REAL no rules combat (eye gouges and stuff). Vitor beat the guy into a bloody pulp.

I know what you mean by "not quite there". For that i will use Heath Herring as an example, the guy is a monster and gets results, but his striking is ugly as hell! Jesus i cant beleave he's beaten so many guys by striking.

Then there are fighters that seem to be pretty complete overall, Nogeira comes to mind, greatest heavyweight submission guy and he beat both #1 contenders both in striking and on the gruond. I like Igor Vovchanchyn a lot too, even though he's not a grappling master he's **** good at staying off the ground and employing his will standing.

Btw since you mentioned K-1 fighters a lot of them have tried to migrate into MMA and not many have been succesful, only one i can remember right now is Mirco "Cro Cop".

[Budokan]

Frankly, I think these home-grown competitions do give a decent overview of what kinds of fighters are in your neighborhood. --And they're usually poorly skilled, out of shape WWF wannabes or street thugs who have found a venue to beat up on someone within the bounds of the law. But the techniques observed at these regional bouts aren't anything to sway this MA's opinion one way or the other, no matter who participates: KF, karate, rasslers, dog catchers, etc. They're mostly all pretty bad and from what I've seen on amateur videos most of us who train regularly and solemnly in MA dont have too much to worry about if we're ever jumped by one of these beer-bellied wife-slapping hog-kissing cousin-marrying goons.

Obviously, the topmost tier showcasing these events don't have the same lack of skill exhibited by their practitioners. Just their fan base.

My two yen.

[Tae Li]

If you are looking at anything that if full contact, have you ever attented a TKD tournament or seen one on t.v perhaps?

well, some fighters make it look really bad, but many of them are in fact very very good and strike with precision and power, and im quite sure that if applied out on the street in self defence will also work.
So in this sense, yes, they are realistic.

But i can see, where you might have doubt. Some fighters (specifically in TKD) have no idea what there doing on that mat infront of spectators and judges. They lose sense of fighting skill because their fear overcomes them. Yes I am speaking from exp. But when you learn to control or accept your fear, believe me you improve. ALOT.

Many fighters make it look unworthy and certainly not realistic when fighting in comps, but dont think that they cant actually be good 'outside'. They can. Not all of them though. It really does depend on the individual.

Tae Li
;)

[Braden]

Kung Lek - I don't understand how you can say 'ground and pound' is inherently sloppy. I don't see how any technique can inherently be sloppy. It's about HOW things are done, not WHAT is done.

Black Jack - Mostly you're right; 'beauty' in martial arts IS what works. In the same way that mathematicians might remark that a formula is 'beautiful' because it efficiently handles the problem. That said, at least when _I_ think poorly of the skill shown by _some_ professional MMAists, my reasoning is - yes, it works for them, but does that really mean it works? There are some problems in extrapolating what works for Silva to what is going to work for joe average, and what is going to work for _me_ (the last of which is really all _I_ care about). Most of us don't have the genetics of those Big Scary Mofos (tm), nor the ability to put in the work out time and diets they have; and there is a whole bundle of concerns regarding steroid use and the like. So when you take people whose physical makeup is entirely different than ours, how valid are the conclusions you can draw from them? When I see people who MMAists consider highly skilled, but who have no control over their center, I think to myself - works for them, would never work for me. This is when the issue of showing skill comes in.

In regards to the original question, I think you can't generalize - the people involved in these events runs the gamut. There are those who look incredibly skilled to me, and those who look incredibly unskilled. As there would be for any other group of people.

[guohuen]

I think that if there are spectators, then the competition is a spectator sport that requires somewhat different skills and training than basic self defence. Kind of like apples and oranges.

[scotty1]

I like Braden's comments about body size, taking conclusions from fighters with pretty much the opposite body type from you.

Makes sense. But I can't offer an answer to the question because I haven't seen any.

[Kristoffer]

It can be viewed both ways.. i think anyone who fights fullcontact does something good you know? Coz hes out there and really testing the stuff. but i can think that hmm, that taekwando.. I wouldn't wanna use that on the streets, in a real fight. Even if they fight fullcontact. And somethimes when u see a really sloppy boxer, i can think that.. Hey, if he had to box anyone without gloves, he would brake that hand before he knew it. Both are still good, but all Im saying is that u can thik of the question in many directions, so too speak.

[Brad]

But how many MA who watch these competitions, and think the competiters are bad, could get into the same ring/octagon and win themselves? And if these comps are not good places to judge martial skill, than how do you know the competitors are bad martial artists or not?

[Merryprankster]

Kung,

I hardly consider taking somebody down and beating their face in desperate. If you are interested in the asthetics of the situation, then a ring is not for you. It's ugly, it's bloody, and the fewer restrictions there are on techniques the less inherently cool it looks, because flash is risky. High kicks in a TKD comp might look cool, but start adding leg kicks to the equation and you'll get something that looks FAR more like a muay thai match, which many people on this forum consider artless and brutal.

However, I definitely agree with you on one of your points: The local level fights seem to attract a lot of people who shouldn't be there.... grossly overweight fighters, people who've never trained properly.... one guy actually TURNED HIS BACK to his opponent and went back to his corner the first time he got whacked. Pathetic. His trainer should be SHOT for allowing him to get in the ring.

[jimmy23]

"if you applied the methods of grace employed in boxing to the entirity of your arsenal, would this not produce a fighter that had holistic skill"

what the heck does that mean???

[Jaguar Wong]

BlackJack,
I know what' you're saying. If the guy can pull it off, but it looks ugly, it's still effective, but if they throw out a butt ugly desparation shot that they really can't repeat in a similar situation, that just reeks of "luck" which in my eyes is the x factor, that makes may techniques "ugly". I wouldn't consider them effective (because you can't rely on their effectivness when you need it), but I would consider them a danger that you always have to watch out for. Like the mighty "one shot kill" from most karate styles.

Kung Lek,
a lot of the big name fighters in today's major MMA events have either cleaned up their style, or they've always had a certain level of grace. If you ever watch Rickson Gracie fight, he gets hit a lot, and he's just as vulnerable to the KO, or submissions as anyone else, but the way he can flow to take advantage of a mistake is a thing of beauty. It's not asthetically pleasing to see him punch the back of someone's head when he's got the back mount, but when you realize that he's doing it to open them up for a choke, then he easily takes the choke, that's skill in my eyes.

Sakuraba is another example, but I consider his skill to be more like "unpredictable beauty". It's just too weird to even consider half the stuff he uses (he uses strikes and subs from pro wrestling sometimes), but he can make them work when he wants to, so that's skill. Another is Mark Coleman, I don't know if you saw his early "shoot 'n' punch" matches, but that was very ugly to me. Since is three loss streak, he's really cleaned up his style, and develope a lot (I mean A LOT) more patience, and respect for the sport and the fighters involved. He's got one of the nicest takedowns in the sport today (besides Mark Kerr, who's probably got the best IMO). He either shoots for a double, or moves for a clinch, and sweeps the legs out from the other guy, but when he takes an advantageous position, he picks his shots carefully now. He hits hard, but he only hits when there's a shot to be taken now.

BTW, I hear Coture really cleaned his strikes up. His last fight against Rizzo sounded like a very impressive showing that I'm gonna have to check out.

OK, so now here's my little confession...I like watching Guy Mezger fight. He's got some nice strikes, plus he leads with his left foot (if you've ever seen him fight recently, that's pretty much what my striking looks like. I use my lead left foot for a lot of roundhouse, and side kicks, except I switch stances, as well as use my right leg), but he doesn't have the best record around. His strikes are clean and sharp, but they lack the power, and aggression that someone like Silva has (who TKO'd Mezger in the first round).

[ewallace]

Fighting in the ring is good as it can give you an indication on how your skills will work against an unwilling opponnent. I do however have a little problem with the "realistic" part. In a NHB type event, fighters go into a ring knowing they are about to fight. When your standing in a bar laughing with your friends and all of a sudden some angry biker grabs you by the shirt, gets in your face and starts shouting somthing like "Im gonna kill you for what you did to my sister mother fukker", and cracks you in the nose, you simply are not going to start contemplating the different techniques you might use on this very ****sed off person. Conditioning yourself to react to fear (mentally) can be as challenging as any physical part of training.

[Ray Pina]

Back to ground and pound. I think both HOW and WHAT is being done in this method of fighting is more than sloppy, but dangerous and eventually in-effective. Why? Because you are still fighting the person. You want to just beat the person, not fight him.

Example: A few months ago someone posted a video of a NHB type event here. One guy whent for a Muy Tai type kick to the other's (a big black man, probbaly 6'2", 235-250) and the man responded by wedging the kick with his leg. The kicker's leg snapped in half, fight over.

I thought that was beautiful. Why? He never faught the guy. They guy attacked and he used one single method and the fight was over. In fact, the fight laster for however long their two legs were in contact with each other -- maybe .001 second. To me, that is the acme of skill. Getting pulled down or sitting there slugging it out is not. No skill there, a bit of luck and toughness, who can take it and who get's that good shot in.

How can you fight the larger man that way, they'll just keep you out with their reach and pound you.

Often, I am not impressed with much that Isee in these events -- I see poeple let grapplers enter them unpunished, people letting one enter with strikes and then exit to bounce around; I belive in a one contact, one opening, one shot kill method -- but yet I respect these men for getting in the ring, each fight is a lesson. They are at least working it.

I myself am training to enter these events, hopefully in a year or two. MY master is a great trainer. I want to bring beauty to these events. Not fancy, not slky, beauty -- straight in one shot kill, I want to show that there are methods of high technology, that one can beat the bigger man, that good gung-fu is equiped to handle it all.

It's a big challenge, and I hope I'm up for it. But, day by day, lesson by lesson, fight by fight. I try to be like a spunge.

Also, Kung Luk, you know something. Can you tell me where you gained your knowledge. How did you come about learning from you master, you seem to have a lot of knowldge. You're very kind, a great example. Sometimes I get too caught up in martial debates and then regret positions I put myself into. After all, these are dangerous arts we are learning -- I do not want to hurt anyone, and am calm when dealing with outsiders, but when it comes to martial artists I'm a little to fast to push a point.

Well, I tell myself I am young, 27, but I see it already. In fact, I might go do soemthing brave right now and back out of the stupid Ralek fight. I think this would be in my best intrest. I don't know.

[Braden]

EvolutionFist - Aim for perfection. But assume you'll screw everything up.

One shot kills are a great aim. But having a backup plan is excellent - it's not sloppy.

A ground and pound is as good a solution as any for the 'smaller guy' who finds himself 'engaged' and 'inside' the opponent.

[Ray Pina]

If you are inside, the fight should be over already, no need to pound and ground.

[Tigerstyle]

Some people here seem to be using the terms beauty/grace and skill interchangeably (real word?).

It's not pretty (to many people) to see a "Ground and Pound", but it's far from unskilled. In truth it is a pretty effective way to capitalize on a couple of (IMO) weaknesses in BJJ: takedown defense and feeling "too" secure in a guard postition. You may not think it's pretty, but if you're going to get in the ring you better know how to deal with it.


"for instance, if you applied the methods of grace employed in boxing to the entirity of your arsenal, would this not produce a fighter that had holistic skill and could still make an "ugly fight" something that you can watch and go 'ahhhhh, I see that' as opposed to 'ahhhhh, did you see that!'."

Kung Lek,
I think you're using your opinion that MMA is "ugly" and unskilled as a fact, and you're implying that it has no grace at all. There are many "ahhhhh, I see that" moments in MMA matches, but they're usually seen by people that know what to look for. I have re-wound and re-watched many transition to armbars, head kick KO's, flying armbars, double arm bar :eek: (only saw that one once), one punch KO's, takedowns, takedown defenses, etc., and all because I saw something skillful in the set-up or execution of the techniques.


Evolution,
I wish you the best of luck, and I'll root for you when I see ya'. If you are serious about entering these events though, I would like to humbly suggest that you not take lightly what the people in the ring are capable of. I am not suggesting that you aren't good (I don't even know you, so I don't have any basis to judge), but IMO much of the stuff we see in MMA is only "sloppy" when we don't understand it.

[Ford Prefect]

Ewallace,

That's when I think NHB training would shine the most. If somebody grabs you like that, you're just going to go off instinct. After doing it thousands of times against uncooperative opponents, a NHB's fighters tactics are mostly instinct as well. You can rational think, "oh he's off balance now, time for the throw" because by the time you think that he'd of regained his balance. It has to happen without thinking.

[Braden]

EvolutionFist - Sure it should be. But alot of the time it's not. And if you haven't trained for this eventuality, you're going to be in alot of trouble.

Do you really think you can take out anybody in one strike so reliably that you'd stake your life on it? Do you think you'll ever be able to? Unless the answer to these questions is yes, it logically follows that you should consider training alternatives.

I see that you study bagua. Wouldn't you agree that one of the principles of this art is that each movement naturally generates the next? The idea here is that your attack will be blocked, something will go wrong, your opponent will do something you weren't ready for - but it doesn't matter because you're allready responding, and this way you can't lose. Never is there the idea that you can simply do one thing and the fight is over. Cheng Ting Hua is one of the most famous bagua masters, and his art was heavily blended with chinese wrestling. Here we see methods to close with the opponent and throw them to the ground, and then strike them. This is sloppy? In the internal arts, we have many parables of masters fighting each other for days on end. What do you think the old masters were trying to tell us with these stories? Do you think your skill will surpass theirs?

I agree very strongly that what you're describing is a good thing to aspire to. However, you should always assume that everything that can go wrong in combat, will. In other words, don't put blinders on when considering your training goals.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Tigerstyle
I think you're using your opinion that MMA is "ugly" and unskilled as a fact, and you're implying that it has no grace at all. There are many "ahhhhh, I see that" moments in MMA matches, but they're usually seen by people that know what to look for

That's an on point observation. Gong Fu looks pretty **** ugly in application as well. But, if you know what to look for, you're going to see the following: In the middle of the technique, the part where you are actually executing the tech, you'll see the stance for a split second. It becomes a part of the footwork. Then it disappears just as quickly.That is what makes the tech martially efficient. Only problem is, it;s so easy to miss. Kinda like driving the hips in the arm bar. It's subtle, but if you know what to look for, you can see it. And it also makes the differnces between a sub and an attempted sub.

[Ray Pina]

ONE SHOT KILL is more a mentality than an actual thing I aspire to in every match. The only thing I aspire to when fighting is to walk away unharmed, what happnes to the other guy is his business.

But, I do not get dran into these slug fests, to me, that is cruse and a loosing game. Its like a swordsman who just hacks away, you wind up killing each other.

No, it will not be first contact, but I: Open your door, keep my door closed, THEN hit. I don't swing until I have controled you. When I control you, then hitting is easy.

As for my training, boxing gloves, full power punching all the way. It's been this way for quite some time. I feel it is the only way, at least for me. I am a skeptic, and need to test things for real before I would even consider pulling them out. So, when I say ONE SHOT KILL, it is not as some kid with John Wayne fantasies, but as a long time martial artists (even at 27) who has pounded away at boards and bricks and slugged it out in rings and street corners AND LEARNED. Refinement. My sifu is 60 years old. I assure you he does not beat my a$$ using pound and ground. Its finess, backed up with a whole lot of pwer ... gained from perfect body mechics, position, and in his case, a lot of internal knowledge. I'm still working on the first two, investing in the latter day by day.

Just my aproach to fights. I don't like to fight, just win. Would you consider a conflict with an 8 year old a fight? Of coarse not, you just beat him do to supriority. That is my aim in every conflict.

If it takes two shots, even three, they will be consecutive and follow the first, single intention, never pulling back or stopping and restarting. One intention, one shot, one kill.

[Tigerstyle]

IMHO, There's nothing prettier in MMA than a one-punch visit from the Sandman :) . Well, except that flying armbar that happened in (I think) a shooto match I saw one time :eek: .

[Brad Souders]

Flying armbar was Sato vs Taylor in shooto http://www.fighttraining.com in the fight video section

[Tigerstyle]

Thanks, Brad! Now i can see it again whenever I want. :)

[Merryprankster]

Evolution...

You say the ODDEST things. Really.

I am so 180 degrees out from your points of view that I really don't think we have a middle ground to meet on. No offense, I just personally cannot wrap my mind around your viewpoint... but that's the point of forums like these anyway :)

Just for the record, wedging the kick and having the kicker's leg break is called "luck," not skill. The shin block is standard Muay Thai fare, and I suspect is standard in other arts too. So the kicker breaking the kicking leg is just plain luck.

[Water Dragon]

Or a calcium deficiency.

[Ray Pina]

I would think he could have tried to step back and taken its force, having his balance blown ou. He could have tried to block it with his hand, he could have done a lot of things. Instead he whent in and wedged it. Why is that luck and not skill?

Is it lucky when you jam a punch? Why is a kick different?

[Brad Souders]

AGREED ^
|
|

[Jaguar Wong]

The fact that the guy's leg broke is luck. The other guy didn't even consider that happening when it he went for the block (out of trained instinct).

[Merryprankster]

The skill involved in the shin block exists, I grant you that.

However, there is no PARTICULAR thing that the guy who blocked DID that caused the leg to break. So it's lucky. Catch my meaning?

The difference is one of causality. There is a RELATIONSHIP between the shin check and the broken leg, but it wasn't the shin check that "purposely caused" the broken leg

Same as if I jam a punch. I jam the punch to avoid damage. If I jam a punch and his hand breaks, I've gotten lucky.

[Ray Pina]

PS: Tigerstyle, I just saw your post and wishing me luck. Thank you.

For the record I don't take anyone lightly. When I go and fight Tai Kwon Do, as much as I make fun of them, I take that person across from me 100% seriously, because I know all it takes is one conection to put me down.

As for me, I can say I think I'm pretty good with a lot to learn. I can also say I think I am now training with one of the best in the world: Master Bong Chan.

As for Merryprankster, I don't know how you train. Me, we put the gloves on work principles and theories at full power. Jamming, wedging, pushing angles, a strong structure, perfect mechanics, this is my training focus. If you are training 180 degrees oposite of this ...

[Ray Pina]

Of coarse the leg breaking is luck, if you want, or circumstance. That is a side benefit. The technique worked, it did its job.

If I jam your arm, great. Get ready to be controlled and ultimately struck somewhere ... hard. If your arm breaks all the better. But please, don't call it luck. I wish I was that lucky. I'd stop fighting and take up gambling.

[Ray Pina]

Hey Jaguar. I'm going to be in Las Vegas on the 28th if you want to get together. Real friendly. I'll show you what I consider to be "pretyy" martial arts. I'll show you some principles I'v gotten from my new master -- priceless.

[Merryprankster]

I'd rather not discuss training methods here. That's not the point of the matters at hand. I'll say mine looks a lot like yours and we'll leave it at that.

Blocking the kick is skill.

Jamming the punch is skill.

The fact that the shin/hand breaks due to either is luck.

For it to not be luck, one of two prior conditions must be met:

1. You DID something special that causes the kicking leg to break or the hand to break.

2. You had prior knowledge that the person had brittle bones, and judged that particular tactic would cause the bones to break.

[Braden]

MerryP - I can't figure him out either, so you're in good company. ;)

[Ray Pina]

I agree.

[Ray Pina]

PS. My initial point is it was that move, that display of skill that I liked. He just didn't put his head down and start swinging, to me that is not skill and unimpressive.

When I saw that, I was impressed. I would say 85% of the time I'm not. It's stuff like that that I look for.

[Sensei Kunz]

The only fighting that is even close to street fighting is full contact! The readon for the sloppiness is due to lack of training. Students in the arts are only sloppy due to inexperience in the ring. They have not yet discovered their own self-expression and get desperate by any means possible. The only way to perform well under any circumstances, be it in the ring or street, is training, training and more training!!!!!

[Ray Pina]

.

[Merryprankster]

EF,

Fair enough. I think you'll find that the more experienced NHB types at the top of the game (not the pro-wrestlers that Pride is frequently fond of) tend to have a great deal of skill.

Sakuraba, Renzo, Shamrock, etc. Some good guys... and bad guys :)