Power to body weight ratio

[Ka]

I may be a little fella but I think training for this is really important not just for fighting but for any sort sport you might do.Any thoughts.

[Robinf]

I'm in agreement for myself. I'm working on that for me. I'd like to at least be able to lift my own body weight over the chin bar. I can hold it up there and lower down slowly, but darned if I can actually pull up over it.

I really don't know why this is so important to me. You don't have to do this to be in "good shape". Or do you?

Robin

[Sharky]

"I'd like to at least be able to lift my own body weight over the chin bar. I can hold it up there and lower down slowly, but darned if I can actually pull up over it. "

just keep doing that as slow as you can and you'll soon be on your way - very soon.

[Robinf]

Thanks, Sharky.

I've been doing this for a few months. I can pull half way up. Although, I did have a small breakthrough. It used to be that I got locked up once I hit that half way point, now it feels like I just don't have the strength to do. I suppose I just need to put all my effort into one and get my chin up there.

Isn't a lat pull the same motion as a pull up? If so, I can pull down more than my body weight and let it up slowly, so why can't I pull up my body weight?

Robin

[ElPietro]

On thing on strength relative to size. It isn't directly proportional. Someone who is twice the size of another will not be able to lift double the weigth. Basically as you add more strength and muscle more overall body mass in general is added. But you will not be adding strength as easily as you add mass so you will not keep up is basically what I'm trying to say.

[Sharky]

if you can, try and get a handsome male to help you up all the way, and then you, yourself, have to control the coming down bit.

can't say why you can't pull up your own weight but you can pull it down... unless you're changing your grip (overhand/underhand?)? it's not really exactly the same movement as well.

in the beginning have a bit of a jump to help you get up there yourself. try then, doing partials (you're probably making it harder for yourself by doing it from arms locked - this is, of course, the way you should do it, but if you're struggling give yourself a break and try going back up before your arms are locked! this helped me. I think you'll find most guys cant even do one pull up as well, regardless of what they say, so don't worry!)

Throw yourself a bone :D

[hkphooey]

robinf

wow...you can get the first half but not the second half??? that surprises me. most women i know have a harder time getting up from a dead hang. what grip do you use??

oh, and lat pulldowns aren't really the same thing.

they have some great machines that will let you do pullups with less than you're body weight. don't suppose you have any access to those..?????

[Robinf]

I don't have access to those pullup assist machines (like the "gravitron"). I've been working on this twice a week since October, and can still only get halfway up. It's annoying. Although, it is a vast improvement from hardly making any visible movement in the beginning.

I use an over hand grip. I am able to do partials with an underhand grip and can just about pull myself up with an underhand grip. It's the overhand grip I'm having trouble with.

I prefer to do it from a dead hang. I don't want to train any bad habits. I just don't have the endurance maybe. I have the ability to generate the power to yank half way, but I don't have the endurance to go the rest of the way. I need to train more endurance to my lats. Am I on track with this? Or is there more power generation that I'm missing?

The anatomy and requirements of a pull up.


Robin

[IronFist]

Isn't a lat pull the same motion as a pull up? If so, I can pull down more than my body weight and let it up slowly, so why can't I pull up my body weight?


Hi Robin,

I'm in the computer lab between classes right now, but let me try to give you a quick answer.

I'm assuming by "lat pull down" you mean with your arms wider than shoulder width apart, and your palms facing away from you. Also, I'm assuming by "pullup" you mean arms about shoulder width (or less even) and palms facing you.

If that is the case, then no, they aren't the same. Pullups done with the hands wide and palms away from you (or lat pull downs done in this manner) involve the lats to a high degree. So, the ability to pull yourself up (or pull the bar down) is dependent upon how your lats and biceps work together.

If you're doing pullups, as in like, hands close, palms facing you, then this invovles primarily the biceps and there is very little lat invovlement. Perhaps this is the reason why you can do lat pulldowns but not pullups, because when you rely entirely on your biceps, you don't have the strength to pull yourself up. But, when you're doing it wide grip, you can then use your lats as well for an extra boost.

One other thing comes to mind. Just because you're using a machine and you put the pin on "120" doesn't mean it's actually 120lbs. I don't know how much you weight, this is just an example. To use me as an example, I weigh about 168 right now, so in theory, if I set a lat pulldown machine to 180, I should be able to hang from the bar and not have the weights move at all (since I would be trying to pull more weight than I weight), however, I still pull the bar down using jsut my body weight even when it's set to 180. The point I'm maknig is that the numbers on machines are not very accurate at all :)

One other bit of advice. Here is the rule to save your shoulders and joints. If your hands are far apart, your palms must face away from you. If they're close together, your palms must face you. In other words, wide grip pullups with your palms facing you will hurt like hell as well as destroy your shoulders :)

K I gotta go to class. Hope this helped.

Iron

[Ka]

Thanks people.I am petty big on body weight excerses,especially dips and chins.I come from a climbing background so I have some painfull tools that work well.For those that are serious about chins and dips I would recomend buying a paded weight belt(one that you can suspend weights from) and matrix though your sets.If you are having trouble geting over the bar I would suggest a spoter surporting you with one hand lower back and the other under one of your bent knees.He should give you just enough surport to pull over the bar.Do this with the under arm grip which concertrated more on the biceps as mentioned.Work slowly toward wide grip overhand chins. Here's a work out you may want to try from underarm grip at right angles chin up the top half of the excerise,lower back to right angle,do this for half the normal no. of reps you do.Go to the almost straight positon and chin to the half way right angle lower and repeat for same no.Still without geting down blast out sum of the 2 halves making sure to go up fast and down slow.
I have to tell you I'm surpised that people don't concentrate on these sort of excersices,but I don't go to a gym I guess and prefer stuff I can do around the house and endurance stuff
Wait till you get a hangborad and one arm chins lots of fun!
I might just post a training routine and see what you guys think.Keep in mind I train for a few other sports as well.

[IronFist]

Ka, weighted chin belts are awesome!

I'm working on being able to do one armed chins now, but they're hard!!!!! Maybe in one month I'll be able to do one.

Iron

[Ka]

Yep there are good value,Iron I knew you where hard core.If you need a assist do the old bike tyre tube threaded once around the bar conect that to a ocy strap and put that to your Harness/Weight belt/pants, it acts like a spoter.The trick I find with the one arm is to rotate(underarm grip of cause)your body awayfrom the arm thats pulling (that is if pulling with the right turn towards the left )and squeeze those abs.Try also asissit up and one arm back down nice and slow(negative I think is the term),or put three fingers of one arm just over the bar and crank the pull with the other.One more ,buy some tape sling(climbing shops) put that suspended from your bar,start chining with 4 fingers in the loop.
I haven't even started about pinch chins and rope work.
Don't get me started
take it easy
train hard

[prana]

Originally posted by IronFist
Ka, weighted chin belts are awesome!

I'm working on being able to do one armed chins now, but they're hard!!!!! Maybe in one month I'll be able to do one.

Iron
Iron

2 years ago I could do a one arm chin. But then that was 2 years ago.

A friend of mine can do 7 one arm chins, hanging off one sling with only the middle finger. That is heard to beat.

[Robinf]

Thanks, Iron, but as I posted the type of pull ups I'm having a problem with is the overhand grip (palms facing away from you, the same way I do lat pull downs with arms more than shoulder's width apart). I understand that the prime movers are different with different grips, hence the same grip for both exercises.

I actually have more luck doing the pullups from a dead hang with a close grip and palms facing in. I have pretty good bicep strength. So, what on earth is weak on me that I can't do pullups with the overhand grip more than shoulders' width apart?

I'm thinking of getting a wabble board, speaking of body weight exercise. Anyone have one? It seems like a blast and would be great for balance and stability work.

Oh, and Iron, I don't mind saying, I weigh 120 and can lat pull 140 for 6 reps (I normally pull 100 for 3 sets of 10 - 12)

Robin

[hkphooey]

iron

are you ready to begin an exciting new career as a psychic??

good guess. 120. wow.

i can't quite do a one arm chin yet. soon perhaps.

i'd like to point out a few more differences between a chin/pull up and the lat pull down, but i can't right now because i'm at work. what do they expect me to do, work all the time or something???

ka: excellent "spotter" tip. i'll try it sometime. god bless you climbers. =) i get out in the cascades all the time, you'd think i'd do more of that climbing stuff myself. although, i use to work in a trauma unit...i think that's why... =)

[IronFist]

I haven't even started about pinch chins and rope work.
Don't get me started

Start!

Iron

[prana]

two words for anyone who wants to do one arm chins.

BACHAR LADDER !

[Ka]

Prana,yep ladders are the way to go,but you need the height to get the best out of them.Campus boards are my choice mainly for the explosive power development.good to see other climbers on board,Open invirtation if ever in Sydney drop us a line and we can do the Blue M or Nowra and chat about MA.
Iron,With your Bar mainly the middle section wrap foam around it followed by a couple of old bike trye tubes,tape it up good with duck tape,it should be about 8-10 cm thick now,place another bike tube for grip and then pinch that sucker with an overhand grip.It should be soft enough for your fingers to mould a pinch while not going all the way to the core of the bar.Start chining.
Rope work is abit harder as you really need access to thick Hawser Rope that the miltary trains with.But if you can land 3-4m worth suspended somwhere it is a forearm and ab killer.Start seated with legs straight,keeping the legs at least 45 degrees start pulling,turn and swing as you pull to the top,you can lower off if you are a mad cranking demon,usually we just collaspe to the mat.
Anyway I am off to QLD for 2 weeks of R&R
Please keep posting any hard core home training ideas
and crank hard

[IronFist]

Thanks Ka! Unfortunately, the only bars I have to chin on are the ones at our Uni gym.

But, I'm determined that I will be doing one armed chins in one month. Wait, not "chins," but "chin." I probably won't be able to do more than one :)

Iron

[prana]

Ka,

Hey do you go indoor climbing ? How long you been climbing and where ? I might know you :D my Nick name in the climbing circle is "I'm-so-weak!" but I havent been climbing for about 2 years...

[Ka]

Hey Prana,Little bit about me,raised in QLD so I got to do the crack stuff at Frog Buttress and afair bit at Shady Buttress,Dinarsor and of cause Kangroo Point.Being young and stupid I brought a Combie(which I still have) and did the tour around climbing spots of Oz,that of cause progressed into the tour of the world deal,which ofcause left me flat broke on arrivial back in Oz.The last few years I established myself in Sydney and started working hard for my cash(must be associated with getting old)so climbing takes 2nd pirority to the 1.Boss(girlfriend)
2.other Boss(work)
Now trying to get through Uni (any degree will do me)and live in Sydney.not easy
Still I can not get climbing out of the system,so I get out about twice a month.mostly the Blues(we love bushwalking too)but Bowrala, Narabean,and Nowra somtimes.
Bloudering is petty big down here now,so somtimes I get to Sissy and the Balkens,but I really suck as a blouderer and spend most of the time pinging off last moves.I would much rather be out sweating on some multi pitch.
I tried to like indoor but honestly I just can't pay money to climb,the atmosphere often puts me off as well,too many dudes who are way too up themselves.but I understand it is the best place to train.we sort of have a good set up at my place that a few friends use,but no woody.I used to scam a climb at Sydney Uni gym when I knew someone there but they are gone now so I don't bother.I know this sounds abit trady but its about geting out in the green for me,,,,and cranking like a demon.
Here's the no.s deal.I guess my best redpoint was 28/ 7c+/5.12c??(I was always vague about US grades).But I always worked them like crazy.Best onsight 25/7a+/5.11c ?that was in 97/98.
I am still pulling through on the 22/23 range,and haven't really got out there and worked anything harder latley,the mind is losing the intensity I guess.
But I still love climbing
feel free to email me (its in the location box)
:D :D
Iron ,go hard,One word of advice, even when one arm is showing faster improvement then the other keep working the other arm or you will really screw up the whole rotator group(deltiods,trap,lats tersesmajor/minor and pec minor)stay happy
sorry to all hard core MA dudes for wasting this post,my real goal is to convert you all.
Shut up and climb

[IronFist]

Iron ,go hard,One word of advice, even when one arm is showing faster improvement then the other keep working the other arm or you will really screw up the whole rotator group(deltiods,trap,lats tersesmajor/minor and pec minor)stay happy


You don't have to tell me that :) I'm a symmetry nazi. I always do EXACTLY the same thing on each side of my body. In fact, sometimes when I finish squatting I get ****ed because I think that my balance wasn't exactly 50/50 during one of my sets... like I think I might have had more weight on one side... oh man do I get ****ed :)

As for my one arm pullup attemps, I'm a righty, but my left arm is advancing faster. Weird, eh? Anyway, I make sure to do the same amount of work on each side :)

But thanks for the advice/warning :D

Iron

[prana]

KA,

Similar warning to MA...

Ditto, I hate going to the gym. My hardest redpoints are 8A's, but that was 3 years ago. My hardest bouldering problem is only a v8 at Sissy, but the funnest bouldering was a v6 called "Sister soldier", I got the second ascent in 98 after David James first did it in 94.

My second home was at "The Clan" (whenI used to climb heaps) I dont usually climb in the gym because it is too expensive, and I too hate the ego level at the gyms, so I stay out. But I do go there on Thrusday nights when I am feeling a lilttle bit richer ahahah..

I just might know ya, probably seen you climbing somewhere before, heheehehe me and my mate are famous for yelling over Centennial Glen...

I am getting old and creaky so I dont climb much nemore.

[fa_jing]

Robin - pull with your back, not with your arms??
Just a thought.
-FJ

[Robinf]

Fa_jing,

I understand what you're getting at. Don't know if I can do that yet, though. It'll have to wait until next week--I had gum surgery and I can't do any workingout until the stitches come out.

Robin

[Ka]

Just got back from QLD,good to get up there again.So you are a Aussie,good value,V8s better value,Yeah I like Sissy but those slopers man!!! The hardest I pulled there was a V6.I really like West Linfeild,much more user friendly.We probally have passed each other on the tracks,we used to go to the glen alot,but my fourivite in the Bluesy's is the Freezer.
Next trip will probally be Berowra in 2 wks for an early morning pump.
I know what you mean about creaky,that why I do the internal stuff now,it used to help my redpoints that and the occasional chuff before hand:D
stay happy