A Theory on Ultimate Combat

[red5angel]

so, I am looking through some web pages for ultimate fighting, nhb style competitions, and here is the conclusion I came to. Now, mind you, I am not saying that it is good or bad, lets just say I am calling it different.
Alot of people want to point at that style of ring fighting as effective combat fighting, and in a sense it is. Here is how I see it though, you dont really have to be trained in a 'system' to win these matches, or in real life. If you lift some weights regularly for strength, learn some basic fighting techniques, and then spend a whole lot of time increasing your body constitution, such as sparring, or just standing around having people hit you alot. you can win these things.
What they should call them are tough man tourneys. thats what these things really are. Those guys learn some things, some styles of fighting and that is fine, I am not saying they have no skill, what I am saying is that, if you walk ou there, the toughest guy in the room, you will most likely win.
now, you can take that how you like, to me, thats an effective way of training as any other. If I spend tons of time learning how to strike and kick and block, until it becomes effective for me, so be it, taht works. If I stand around letting people punch, pull or claw at me until I get tough as nails, well that can work too.

[Merryprankster]

You're completely missing it Red5Angel.

How about Judo? Let's talk about that for a second.

Judo is an international combat sport that is VERY highly developed technically.

When you reach the point at which increases in your technique level are measured in baby steps, you have attained an elite level of understanding.

The problem? EVERYBODY at the international level HAS that elite level of understanding.

What remains then, is to improve the instrument through which you express your Judo.

Elite athletes train so hard because they have to to win. They are injured almost constantly. Rhadi tells me the difference between winning and losing at the elite level frequently depends on who has fewer injuries. Even at my level, far below the international scene, I can believe it.

[Brad Souders]

Rhadi is a monster

[red5angel]

I didnt miss it at all, I didnt mention Judo in my post. That is a system and a style, therefore I assume that winning a match in Judo, in a Judo tourney, actually recquires you use judo techniques?I am not necessarily talking about grappling matches here, although real combat, ultimate fighting what have yous tend to concentrate on that.

[Merryprankster]

Red,

Actually, they don't. It's just that I tend to talk about what I know, and I know about grappling. I don't know about striking much, so I don't talk about it to any great length.

For the record, you can enter a Judo tournament and use wrestling techniques seldom seen in Judo and win.

And you've still missed it.

Let me try and think of a good example...

Ah, I've got it. Mark Coleman and Mo Smith. Both elite combat athletes. Both have a high level of skill. Mo was able to deal with (some) of the takedowns, and escape (some) of the bottom positions.

Guess what happenned? Mark Coleman got tired, and dropped his hands. Mo kicked him in the head and knocked him out.

Elite level athletes MUST be in good shape to win... and while you are correct in saying that conditioning is key, it is key only in so far as you have the technique to back it up.

At the elite level, you are looking at roughly equal levels of technique... now we must move into the conditioning realm to gain a competitive edge.

[Brad Souders]

Though i can see where your coming from this is not the case. Yes these guys train to get hit but that's cause it's part of the sport. But every match you watch there is technique there. It's just when you get evenly matched oppenents it omes down to cardio. Once you get a chance to train a little for MMA the respect for the chess game going on will be a little easier to understand. But when all else fails just have fun training.

[Merryprankster]

Brad,

You're right. I forgot about that.

MMA and grappling events share one thing in common--they require an educated audience to appreciate it.

The occasional high amp throw is nice to see, but the details of the Judo are lost on an untrained audience... where as the avoidance and delivery of punches is obvious to the untrained eye in boxing.

Same with MMA, really. Need to know what you are watching to appreciate it.

[Ralek]

red5angel. Tell your theory to Royce Gracie. He is by no mean tuff. In fact he has a history of being easily injured by strikes and he has zero strength. But somehow he was able to defeat people in the UFC that outweighed him by 50-80 pounds and he defeated Dan Severn a gold medal olympic wrestler who had an 80 pound wieght advantage. He defeated Ken Shamrock who had a 50 pound wieght advantage in UFC #1.

Royce is a little skinny man. I'm sure your theory applies to the little skinny weak people too?

[red5angel]

Ok, you guys have convinced me, just wanted to hear it from some people who knew about it. I dont follow them, so I was just seeking some information.
Really, if it is more about technique then great! I am by no means claiming that good kung fu could beat them, I know that if I came across most of these guys in the streets, I would get killed, no if ands or buts!

[Ralek]

www.bjj.org/images/royce-delucia.jpg

Here's an example of technique. I guess you need no skill or technique to do a move like this.

[Ray Pina]

What happens when the other guys is bigger, tougher?

By that standard there is no need to fight. We can just pull out a scale and a tape measure. The heaviest, bigger guy will win. Which is actually a true statement, size does matter ... unless you know something.

There is a lot to be said about toughness. Years training does not = skill. I know plenty of poeple who have trained for 10years+, but, plane and simple, they are little bit(hes. Sorry, but the word fits. YToughness counts for something, but unless you are bench pressing with your throat, it will not make you imperivious to that one, well timed strike.

[red5angel]

good point Evolution.

[Brad Souders]

I'm glad to see instead of bashing you want to gain some knowlegde. And hey knowing is half the battle!!

[Ray Pina]

Ralek, I agree with you, that is a good techique, great technique, it works, workes well ... in that venue.

My only problem with that is this: If that was on the street, what prevents the guy with the broken arm, what prevents his friend from implanting a Nike symbol on your forehean while you are on your back on the ground? That is why I do not like going to the ground. I grew up in Newark, sneen people get mad messed up on the ground. It is a place that you should not go to by will, only by necessity. When training, I always think about having to change, to adjust to a change, an added attacker, a weapon. Lying on the ground is too committed for me. But at least we are discussing now.

[Brad Souders]

Two questions. 1. What if the guy you get into a fight with is a wrestler unknown to you and he takes you down before you get your strike off? How do you react when some gets you in a clinch? (standing tie up) I can understand your point evolution but in the same as you saying about the well timed strike what of a well timed shot. The average arm lenght i'm guessing is 2 to 3 ft the average distance for a long clean shot is about 15 ft. Going to the ground sometimes is not by choice. Yes i would rather in the street stay on my feet but i know sometimes it won't go how i want it to. And also sometimes size matters. I've lost to people my own weight but i've also tapped people who weight 275 and i weigh 135. It's not what you know it's how smart you use it.

[LEGEND]

I hear this alot...I don't want to go to the ground in a fight...shoot I don't even want to fight!!! LOL...I just want to hook up with many girls and die...but the truth is fight exist and will happen. The problem is hitting someone and scoring a KO is difficult against someone whose clinching or tackling you...U MUST LEARN TO SPRAWL and DEFEND AGAINST TAKEDOWN...do not rely on INTERCEPTION( punching or kneeing a guy while he's in the motion )...they are very very very difficult to execute!

[Ray Pina]

Hey, I agree with you guys, soemtimes you have to go down ... BUT WITH ME, its never by choice.

I actually new an All State wrestler when I was about 17 or 18 in NJ. I always heard he was tough, so gave a wide birth becaue he whent to another school, and all that kid drama. We wound up getting into a fight, he heard the same about me and I guess it was inevitable.

He came high and shot low. I never heard of a Sprawl (and actually was told that's what I did here when recalling this account before) but pulled it off because of principles.

His energy was coming in hard low. I gave my energy out and up. I landed ontop of him dropping a good elbow to his back and then kick his head. His head hit the counter, there was blood.

The fool tried to back up to do something and his face repeatedly hit my knee. The fight was broken up, it wasn't a good night for him.

I know this was only one account, and I did feel lucky abou the results. But principles are principles on, above or below the ground. I train to deal with force: forward, down, rounded, up. I feel when you train that way all attacks are just a manifestiation of that force.

Also, I feel many MA are to concerned with blocking the guy are pukling off some "technique" when a grappler does gis thing because they don't have fight experince. I fight my fight. You extend to close that gap by golly you're going to get hit.

I would love nothing more that to have someone grab me, that's one less weapon being used. Its like putting your gun back in the holster.

But, being the internet, talk is talk. My point, yea, sometimes it goes to the floor. I am fearful when that happens and fight like a mad man, not a good place to be. I've seen poeple get bats and blades on and in their back while rolling around.

Think about it. You are pretty exposed to further attack down there no matter how good you are, you can't change to deal with another attacker when you are so wrapped and commited to one already.

Ba Gua, any complete system, should have ground fighting, but to me it about putting people down or controling them as a weapon or shield, not going down with them.

My personal opinion.

[red5angel]

Legend, you have a good point on the takedowns, they are hard to combat. Fortunately I have a wrestling friend who is going to be working with me this summer so I can start applying my techniques to figure that all out!Really, alot of this is what ifs, and that is the problem. What if he tackles me? What if I am fast enough to back out? What if he is bigger then me, what if I am........
Personally fo rthe ground fighting game I would rather control the fight, if I can, but then again there is another of those ifs......

[Brad Souders]

So if your standing you can't get stabbed or hit with a bat ?

[Ray Pina]

Of course you can, but you certainly have more options. I think you do see that, that you can see it coming and adjust, even run away if you must (three guys with bats and knives). I think you are perhaps trying to play Devil's advovate?

[Ray Pina]

PS

I would think you would agree that you would rather be standing if facing one bat wielding person over even lying down on your back by yourself wihtout anyone to contend with. Now throw in a guy in your face on the ground and the guy with the bat.

[LEGEND]

redangel...well dood...then u're crosstraining!

[Merryprankster]

Evolution:

This is why we have brains. If I were presented with a streetfight, my first option would not be to go to the ground. If I GOT there, however, my familiarity with the ground enables a rapid reversal to a dominant position from which to bootstomp the aggressor into oblivion and/or run, as need be. Without groundfighting skill, I could not guarantee this. The longer I spend on the ground, the more likely it is that his friends will reach me. The faster I can get up, the better off I am. Groundfighting offers you this.

Again--this is why we have brains. Groundfighting is a set of tools. It is up to you to use the appropriate tools in the situation at hand.

[DelicateSound]

You can't [like many strikers] say:

"I won't go to the ground - I'll sprawl to avoid the takedown"

There is no guarantee of this, and if the sh!t hits the floor, you're f*cked.

You should try and be competant at every range, but try and keep the fight within the range you're best at.

[red5angel]

Delicate sound - sounds well thought out to me. My theory is that I am going to train and work as hard as I can at keeping the fight where I can. This doesnt cover everything, and it definitly isnt foolproof!

[GrappleGirl]

Hi Red

You got some of it right. I also believe that Power and Cardio go a long way and so does mental and physical toughness. But the higher level you fight at you will need power , cardio and technique.


Tank Abbott proved what you could do with power in the early UFC but now there are many guys as strong as him that also have technique... so what I'm getting at is I doubt that if tank started fighting today he would win as many fights as he did.


"GrappleGirl"

[Ray Pina]

I never said I wasn't.

Look, if my car goes of a bridge, yea, I know to leave the wondowns closed and let the car fill with water, then open the wondow or door and then come out. Yes, I have a brain (graduated with a 3.7). But I know it is better to stay on the road. The better driver, more aware of the situation at hand you are, the less you have of driving off a bridge.

You can say I cross train, because I train for all situations, including weapons, again, with gear, at full power. Also, I would not call what I do a "striking art" because that is the easiest part, the actual hitting. Opening a door while keeping your door closed is the hard part. Once the door is open, anyone can walk in, the principle is the same no matter the level of fighting.

At my school we will fight on the ground, actually train being on our back, already pinned and then start.

That's training. Yet, when we fight, usually one guy goes down while the winner stands over them, kind, not stomping them. Its our style choice. Yes, fights go to the ground, but when viewing UFC and what not I alwas see grapplers shoot, choosing to go to the ground. The take it their by choice, and that is where I disagree.

Ground, if you have too. Why go to a weak position (reality/street fighting) by choice?

[red5angel]

I agree Grapplegirl, it would seem that skill can take you to the top, although I still believe toughness has alot to do with it!

[Ray Pina]

PS. I have fought grapples and wrestlers. By the same token, have you ever faught Hsing-I or Ba Gua?

What did you think? I'm curious.

[Merryprankster]

Nope, haven't sparred any of those types yet. I'll get around to it, I'm sure.

I'm not arguing that the methods are ineffective or anything like that. I'm just saying one thing only: Nobody CHOOSES to be in the inferior place just because of the style they do. I wrestled. Does that mean I HAVE to go to the ground with my opponent? Nope. Just means that I can use some of my other skills to drop the bad guy on his head and remain standing while I run like hell.

[fmann]

MP, it also means that if he knocks you down with a punch and then mounts you thinking he can pummel you easily, you'll be able to reverse positions and get the f back up.

[GinSueDog]

EvolutionFist,
We both know you have most likely never fought or sparred with a grappler. Hell, you don't even know that a Thai boxer uses the shin to block the low around kick and that it is standard fare in Thai boxing. If anything it sounds like you are talking from inexperience. No offense this is what I am getting from your posts.-ED

[LEGEND]

Ground, if you have too. Why go to a weak position (reality/street fighting) by choice?

Well the big 350lb hockey killer didn't think it was weak to continue striking the poor little guy to DEATH from the ground. It was hockey killer choice too! Maybe he should have kept it standing...wouldn't have killed the little guy. LOL.

[Ray Pina]

It certainly helped that he was on top, and that he outweighed the other gentleman.

As for my experince what can I say, I hope when I grow up I can be as good and experinced as so many of the great internet martial artists on this board. That is my goal.

[LEGEND]

Evolution Fist...I think it's all about mentality bro! For you...u're more of standup fighter...u want to KO the opponent standing...that's cool...there are many current MMA champ and former champs that do that...JEN PULVER( UFC light fighter )...Bas Rutten, Vanderlia Silva. All great strikers are natural at punching and kicking...the only thing they would need to learn is some basic wrestling counters and some basic BJJ( less than a month ) stuff to get off the ground. However a style like wing chun doesn't contain answers to get off the ground...or TKD doesn't either...many chinese styles do not...I don't know the reason why...so think of MARTIAL ARTs like a college. U'll major in whatever art or style u'll choose...but required courses are wreslting...bjj and some ground fighting/grappling to make u a complete student. HEHEHE. Weapon training would be nice too!!! GLOCK FU!!!

[Merryprankster]

Not a bad way to look at things Legend.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with you Legend. I wonder why many of these styles do not worry about things like that. I have long said I have a problemw ith the way wing chun stands, too tall, erect, easily collapsable, and that they are too busy, shifting back and forth across the line of fire. Don't want to get into a big style thing here, just my opinion.

But, if WC puts the gloves on and fights, allowing take downs, I think they would modify and adress the situation with their principles, this is all I look for: looking at the situation realisticly and not thinking everyone will fight like you, seeing possibilities.

[myosimka]

"Ground, if you have too. Why go to a weak position (reality/street fighting) by choice?" -Evolutionfist

You claim the ground is a weak position. Well it's relative. If you are only comfortable fighting standing up and you are facing a like minded opponent, that's true-it's weak. If you are comfortable on the ground and you are facing someone not comfortable with it, then it is not a weak position. Analogy time: I'd rather not fight in 7' of water. But if my opponent doesn't know how to swim or can't hold his breath well but is a champion boxer and we are standing on a pier... Can you say Greg Louganis? That's how long it would take me to hit the water.


I would not go to a weak positon by choice but it's not always a weak position. Yes, if I ever do something to tick off Royce Gracie, I will do my best to stay on my feet. But if I ever meet Alex Gong in a dark alley, you can bet I am going to take him off his feat and onto the tarmac as quickly as I can.

[Merryprankster]

myosimka,

Hence my point "That's why we have brains."

[Ray Pina]

What if you are a good swimmer and he isn't, but three friends pull up in a boat?

My point is that the position is weak because it hampers your ability to change, and if you can't change easily you will have a hell of a time fighting a) someone skilled or b) more than one man.

If you are a great ground fighter, that is great on a one on one basis. You'll kill the guy IF you get him down. BUT, you get into it outside a bar, just then, his two friends walk out, smuggled out bear bottled in had. Do you want to be rolling around on the ground at this point? Or up, ready to step back to keep all three of them in front of you, get a feeling of your surroundings, perhaps find a weapon, perhaps run, perhaps use parked cars or fire hydrants to your advantage.

I can not argue that you ground fighters are very good at what you do, but on the street you are not confined to a cushioned ring with one man, there are a lot of varioubles that are better adressed on your feet ... I THINK.

[myosimka]

ah the familiar refrain. The multiple opponents argument. If they are unskilled opponents I wouldn't have gone to the ground. My point was it's a relative situation. If they are unskilled then my stand-up game is probably better than theirs. So I wouldn't go to the ground against the one opponent. If they are skilled...time to kiss my a$$ goodbye. But again that's a relative strength/weakness argument. Yes, it's a weak position if 4 people are there. So is standing up. There are 4 of them. RUN!! Then you only worry bout the fastest one. Assess situations case by case. And the what if scenario makes one critical area. If I think what if and stay on my feet against Alex Gong, the 3 friends won't ever be an issue. He'll kick my ass. If I stay on that pier and go toe-to-toe with a champion boxer, the potential friends in the boat won't matter.
If changing the forum of the fight gives me an advantage that I need, I am going to take it. Yes the hypotheticals exist. Personally I am going to handle the reality of a situation. What MIGHT happen is an important consideration but it pales in comparison to what IS happening.


Until I see a scenario where someone beats decisively multiple skilled opponents that are trying to win I am going to leave it as a myth. Yes I train for multiple opponent scenarios. (Mostly by thinking where can I run to) I also meditate. I do not expect to be able to project astrally. I get so tired of this argument. I outgrew my badass wading through an army fantasy years ago.


And before I get classified: I am a stand-up fighter. It's what I like and my strength. Plus I have ran crosscountry and track. I like the runaway method. But I have found myself on the ground and twisted up like a pretzel. So I practice on the ground. I have also found myself against a better stand-up fighter. He found himself on the ground, twisted up like a pretzel. So I practice on the ground. 90% of the time I stay on my feet. But once in a while...

[fmann]

Originally posted by myosimka
I like the runaway method.

I like that method, too. I also prefer the Smith and Wesson method.

What is this thread about again? Initially it was on a general concept that toughness is the determining factor in a fight. When it was shown (quite perceptively by Ralek, of all people), that overwhelming technique and skill can overcome strength, this thread became one of ground fighting versus stand-up fighting?

[Ray Pina]

First and foremost, I do not know you are your method of choice, I'm simply discussing going to the ground BY CHOICE.

I firmly believe one reacts the way they train, as in my golden years of college ball, you play how you practice.

This is my scenerio, and yes it is a refrain, but one that I think is realistic:

You are outside a club, bar, sporting event, the mall. For whatever reason you get into it with somebody. Hey, he's probbaly a kook. But, he's bigger than you, both in height, reach and weight. You get going, he's tough, you feel a tremendous force, very agressive and feel threatened, your training kicks in and you react by taking him down, its what you trained to do in that case, let's say against a tough fighter a smentioned above.

OK, you are on the groun now. One, only one of his friends steps out, or pulls up in a car. You are on the ground tangled up with his bigger friend. How do you run. How do you even see him come and put a boot in your face?

I do not think this is that out of the question, in fact, I have been that guy with the boot in a few situations growing up. Maybe it was wrong, but at the time I was young and saw a friend in need so I became a friend in deed.

If you train to stay on your feet you'd go to another way of deeling with this force, maybe stepping out and letting it pass while throwing out to maintain position, attack the center. Maybe instead of going down, you'd try to lift the force. The harder they push down to fight they uproot themself.

I'm trying to say, going down purposely can bring trouble. I'm thinkind the F train downtown, bars, crowded unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people. To me, going down is not an option, just something to be delt with it it should arise. I train it, am mindful of it, but do not instigate it. I aim to put the other guy down, but not go down myself.

[LEGEND]

Well from observation standpoint also is that most standup fighting...experience TUNNEL VISION...meaning u're absolutely focus in KO that one person...u are not aware of the other persons...actually I saw 2 fights at CLUB DREAM in DC...both had friends etc...very close range...no one really got hurt...since the bouncers took everyone down. But the TUNNEL VISION effected a particular guy who hit one guy but didn't see the other guy who was to his close left...so he got struck! Multiple fights suck!!! I don't know of any true method to train this...Tony Blauer had some interesting training methods...PANIC ATTACK.

[myosimka]

Not sure if this is you not listening to me or vice versa. My point was , there are situations where the ground is not a weak postion. It's all relative.

Imagine the exact situation you just named. He's bigger/stronger/faster. Now add in he's a better kicker & puncher than you. Oh yeah, his guard's better and so's his trapping. You stick it out standing up because that's the way you are trained and he proceeds to knock you around for 30-40 seconds until you are slightly dazed. You stay standing. Your hands go up instinctively to proteect your head and he hammers at your body. He shin kicks you a couple of times and now you're left leg won't bear weight. Now what do you do when his buddy shows up? Maybe you should have dealt with the situation at hand.

My point is sometimes the ground is a good choice. Personally I don't make that choice often. 11 years of training standing vs. 1-2 years of ground game. My odds of running into people over whom my standup is better are much greater. That doesn't mean it's always the right choice. Assess the situation and do what you think is going to work. And sometimes that's starting by taking them to the ground. And again, make decisions based on the information you have. Actual overrules potential.


One more thing to think about: I've gotten chokes consistently quicker than any knockout strike. If I can take someone into a guard and pull off a triangle and have the guy down and out before his friends come out to help... Seems like a reasonable tactic to me.

Prankster, help me!! I have been fallen into this and I can't get up!! Where's my anti-troll medic alert bracelet?

[Ray Pina]

GinsueDog ... O', what the hell is the point.

You're right. I'm still wearing colored belts and playing tag to win plastic trophies.:rolleyes:

Please, can you share some knowledge with me? How about the most recent principle that you have learned, and found meaningful?

Besides knowing that more than half the poeple are here are armchair martial artists, talk real tough but I know they are not training nerely hard enough, I have really come to learn that up/down, or side/side or in/out blocking is dangerous. Two movement: Push and pull.

Otherwise you are trying to meet someone by chance at an intersection. Push/pull is meating someone on the same street walking in the opposite direction -- much more likely.

Your JKD, based on WC, uses a lot of side to side, like a windshield wiper -- the window still get's wet. I use an umbrella method. You know what, if you stopped talking $hit maybe you'd learn something here. Or do you just come to tell others what there training is, what they do or do not know. I guarantee you my martial knowledge runs much more deep than your own.

Honestly, you're still playing with, maybe high school level courses. I don't want to discuss addition/subtraction with you, I want to talk about physics -- the child $hit is already implied, understood long ago.

[Tigerstyle]

Evolution,
I think you're arguing a point that no one really disagrees with. I'm sure everyone (well, most people) here would say the best place to be in a multi opponent situation is away from there, and that being on the ground is counter-productive towards trying to escape.

What MerryPrankster and a few others are saying is that knowledge of moving and fighting on the ground (positioning, leverage, etc.) can help to minimize the time spent there, should you happen to find yourself in that situation. It's been mentioned a few times, and you mentioned that you do train being on the ground among other things. I think however, that you're too stubborn to admit that they have brought up a good point ;) , because you are only indirectly agreeing with it (using your training exp.) and you seem to just bring up other points to counter.

"You fight how you train" is a good point, but it wasn't really the the topic of this thread. Again, I'm sure people here would agree with that statement. Also, just because a person is a wrestler (for example), that doesn't mean he/she lives a sheltered life with no knowledge of how the real world is. Nor does it mean wrestling is that person's only "combat" knowledge.

Stop being so defensive :p

[Ryu]

Hmm, do you guys consider knee on belly or even pounding from the mount a place where you can not change quickly?

The reason I ask is because I have seen just as many streetfights deal with one on one as they do with multiple opponents. Plus, I don't think that if you are destroying someone on the ground with punches from mount that you can't have sense enough to roll off or jump up quickly if danger comes. And in the case of multiple opponents what if they do get you down?

I had to fight off two people once where I got ontop of one of them and had to stand up again. It was my top position that allowed me to "change" quickly.

Anyway both sides are making very good arguments. Best to incorporate both huh? ;)

Ryu

[Ray Pina]

I agree with you, even with my being defensive; but, as martial artists, I'm sure you can undersant my being defensive when being attacked, such as silly little posts as the one above by ginsuedog.

I never start confrontations here. I come, say my two cents and get out. BUT everytime I try to gte out, they bring me back in ...;)

Just kidding. You're right. Just every time we start talking grappling I get visions of that pic that Ralek posted to day, one guy on his back, legs in the air, and pushed up against the chain fence, which could be a wall. All I can think is, yes, he's breaking that guy's arm, but I wouldn't want to be in that position. But I guess that's your point too, no one want sto be in that position.

OK, I'm out. Pretty good conversation. I've grown.

[Ray Pina]

Mounting is not a bad position, quite good in fact -- and yes, you can change real quick. Getting reversed though is where my arguement begins, and trying to avoid that entire mess together.

[Knifefighter]

==================================================
"Otherwise you are trying to meet someone by chance at an intersection.
Push/pull is meating someone on the same street walking in the opposite
direction -- much more likely.

Opening a door while keeping your door closed is the hard
part. Once the door is open, anyone can walk in, the principle is the same no matter the
level of fighting."
==================================================

EF:
Interesting stuff. Could you give some examples of actual techniques you use for these things?

[Ryu]

Definitly understand that. :)
But I guess if you are a trained grappler you stand less of a risk of getting reversed. :) Same as being able to out punch someone ya know? But you never know :(

The big guy in the parking lot you mentioned before...I'd spray him with OC and suplex him while he was blinded for a second. :D

Then RUN with Myosimka :D

Ryu

[shaolinboxer]

"I agree with you, even with my being defensive; but, as martial artists, I'm sure you can undersant my being defensive when being attacked, such as silly little posts as the one above by ginsuedog."

Actually, as a martial artist I would expect calm reserve.

Don't let your opponent control your mind.

[Tigerstyle]

Gotta love that suplex

[shaolinboxer]

A suplex is an excellent way to control smoeones mind...right after they pick it up and put it back inside their skull.

[Tigerstyle]

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

[Jaguar Wong]

EvolutionFist,
I think the important point made by MerryPrankster, and some others here is that you should still be prepared to face different situations and opponents. You yourself said you do the same with some of the drills you do (starting on the ground, etc). I am primarily a stand up fighter, but I do a little training on the ground, becuase I believe it's beneficial to excel at one aspect, and prepare for the rest.

Another thing is that Myosimka has an excellent point that seems to be glossed over. He's stating that if you're facing a superior standup fighter, but your ground skills are better, your chances of ending the fight quicker may be better if you take the fight to the ground. If you choose to go toe to toe with him, not only are his chances better, but when his friends do show up, you're in even more trouble.

If you rely only on your stand up skills when someone superior in your "game" steps up, you really don't have much choice other than "damage control", and trying to survive and escape. But if you've got some good stand up and a respectable level of ground skill, and superior striker, but inferior ground fighter steps up, where do you think your best chance to "create an opening" would lie? Sure you may not want to bring the fight down if you're worried about his buddies, but if he doesn't even have "buddies", and you choose to play the same game (which he's better at, BTW), because you're worried about that possible situation, you're thinking too much, and putting yourself at a big disadvantage.

Myosimka is stating that you deal with the "now", not the "what if". If you're a better striker, and a better groundfighter than the other guy, then you have the option of thinking about "what if". Chances are you'll stay on your feet, but hey, there are a couple of psychos that prefer the ground if possible. :)

[shaolinboxer]

These aren't the droids we're looking for.

[Merryprankster]

Exactly correct. You must focus on the "what is," as best as you can make it out to be, with a general game plan in mind, vice the "what if."

Otherwise, you will do nothing.

Boundaries set us free! :)

[myosimka]

Don't run with me, Ryu. I fall back on that old maxim. While you're spraying him in the face I am tripping you. The I d on't have to outrun them, just you. lol. Just kidding.

Thanks Jaguar.

BJJ coach keeps hammering in mobility and flexibility are the primary goals. not just physically either. Mental mobility and flexibility allow you to go to the situation that gives you the best advantage. Locking in on one way of doing things limits your options. If it gets the job done, go to the ground. nuff said.

Now I must flee this thread. The vortex is sucking me in.

[Braden]

TTT - For EvolutionFist, RE: Knifefighter's question