major turning wheel and minor turning wheel.

[Stacey]

I beleive this is plum flower as well as mantis. Lets take the first few movements and compare applications between the two styles.

8step outcasts shut the fu_ck up and argue on another thread.


Tainan, what do two twist punches represent at the beggining of major turning wheel?

[Joe Mantis]

Stacey,

is this Fan Tze that you are referring to? If it is not will you tell me what is "turning wheel?"

I don't have an answer but am curious as to what Tainan will say.

Thanks

[EARTH DRAGON]

I think the stes in which you are reffering to are called

(xiao fan che) small rolling wheel
(da fanche) big rolling wheel

the opening punches in xiao fan che are hooks followed by wheel punches.

The opening in da fan che are actually throws that look somewhat like the goosestep. however the application of the movement is (ma bu ti)

[Old Mantis]

I asked my teacher Ilya Profatilov and this is what he said:

The accurate translation of "Fanche" is "TURNING A WATER WHEEL".

"FAN" means "to turn around".

"CHE" means "Chariot" but in this case it is the abbreviation of the term "SHUICHE" (WATER WHEEL).


THUS, THE CORRECT TRANSLATION IS "TURNING A WATER WHEEL".


This is from Ilya Profatilov's article in JAMA:

"Jiang Hualong was so impressed by master Li Danbai's favorite empty-hand form “Main Set of Turning a Water Wheel” (Zhonglu Fanche) that he incorporated this form into Tanglang Quan system with some modifications. Later, while living in Yantai Master Jiang Hualong taught the “Main Set of Turning a Water Wheel” (Zhonglu Fanche) to many Tanglang Quan masters and the form became more known simply as “Turning a Water Wheel” (Fan Che). Eventually this form developed into the “Major Turning a Water Wheel” (Da Fanche) and “Minor Turning a Water Wheel” (Xiao Fanche) which became widely known among the later generations of Tanglang Quan practitioners."

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Since I have very little experience outside of Wah Lum maybe someone could tell me a little about the Fan Che forms. Wah Lum has a Fan Che and Little Fan Che but I get the impression they are different than the ones refered to here. Tainan Mantis made a comment on another thread that the move 'fan che' was not in the Wah Lum Fan Che form. I am not familiar with the fan che move by name. Could someone explain? Tainan? I suspect it is a swinging arm move that we do have in Fan Che, Lok Lo and others. In a post to flem concerning a move in our 2nd Form that Tainan called lu-lu he said it was a defense against fan che. That also leads me to believe fan che is the swinging arm in Wah Lum's Fan Che Form.

[Tainan Mantis]

These forms exist in 8 step, 7*, mei hwa and the major or big(da) exists in Wah Lum. In each style these forms are different and since there is no popular book to use as reference material it is hard to compare techniques of this form among the different styles.

Old Mantis mentioned that this form comes from Li Dan Bai. What style is he? I have never heard of him.

But this would seem to support the fact that this form is not originally from PM. This form is different among the different styles and I suspect that this is the reason why. Since the PM people of old felt this wasn't a PM form they felt less restrained in changing it. So of all the versions I've seen it is hard to tell they are the same form.
When Ilya came to visit Tainan we also talked about and compared this form. Although ours were different , but it was still recognizable.

Some 8 Step people who learned from Zhou Gao Shan(8 Step) had a form that was similar too.

But some other 8 Step people had a form that was less recognizable, suggesting that some teachers have made additions and changes in Taiwan.

Unfortuneatly, WHF never made a book of his 2 fan che forms. But on looking at his manuscript of Da Fan Che I can see it follows my teacher's, at least in the beginning, but not 8 Step or Wah Lum. Maybe some 8 Step people in America can compare their da fan che to the Wah Lum version.

Joe Mantis,
fan che is a form, but fan tze is a part of the eagle claw style. There is no relation I can see.

Old Mantis,
interesting translation into English. If you can provide any more details of Li Dan Bai, especially his style, I will try to find out more about him.

I have two definitions of the term fan che.
The first one comes from WHF beng bu, the 13th movement. Which is "Ride the tiger overturn the chariot pose" and is a type of throw.
This most definetly is not the original move's name for several reasons;

first, this name is used for the application of a takedown where the opponent is dropped on the top of his head(and will surely die), while that is not the application in this form.

Second, WHF admits that the form beng bu is named after technique #13 which used to be called beng bu, but he himself changed the name in order to have similarity between similar techniques of other forms(and so later 7* people have a problem knowing why the form is called beng bu and make incorrect translation"crushing step")

The second definition, not related to the movement of the first definition is where the hands turn like the wheels of a cart, or like you said, a water wheel. Although either way it seems difficult to prove what the owner had in mind.

In the form hsiao fan che and da fan che there is a technique called da fan che. In Wah Lum this technique is in the first section of straight form. If memory serves correctly, this technique is done differently in Wah Lum's da fan che.

Hua Lin Laoshr,
I wasn't aware that Wah Lum had hsiao fan che, but am eager to compare it to the other versions.

Stacey,
back to your question of application. I only have learned hsiao fan che. When my kung fu brother was learning da fan che I accidentally memorized the first route, but that is it. What style is your form.

On Hsiao fan che 2 man set;
Well, I started to right it down, but I realize if you don't know the same version as me then it will be meaningless and impossible to understand.
What style do you practice?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, I'm going to check on this when I get back to the school but it appears that fan che is the swinging arms just before the cum choy/pow choy at the end of the first run. If that is correct then Fan Che and Little Fan Che both contain the fan che move. I don't know how it differs from da fan che in other PM styles. Guess I need to break loose with some cash and get some videos for comparison.

[MightyB]

I didn't realize that there were so many variations of the fan che forms.

Stacey, did you get the answer to your question? Earth Dragon answered it pretty well.

Earth Dragon, that's an interesting variation on the first move "The opening in da fan che are actually throws that look somewhat like the goosestep". I learned Da Fan Che's opening a little differently. We have the left knee bent and the left arm blocking down to slightly retreat and defend against a kick. I can visualize the takedown that your system teaches in the opening. Good stuff.

Tainan, I'm not familiar with a takedown named "fan Che". Are you refferring to the "Yu Jom"(sp?) throw?

I feel that the two fan che forms are the best for street fighting. At least for me, they compliment my temperement and my build. Good Thread.

[Old Mantis]

Tainan Mantis,

<Old Mantis mentioned that this form comes from Li Dan Bai. What style is he? I have never heard of him. If you can provide any more details of Li Dan Bai, especially his style, I will try to find out more about him. >

Li Danbai was Li Kunshan's uncle. His original name was Li Mingge. He introduced young Li Kunshan to Master Jiang Hualong.

This is from Ilya Profatilov's article in JAMA,

"Li Mingge (1858-1913), was from Ge Zhuang Village and took as his second name, Zhongxiang. Later Li Mingge became more known under the soubriquet Danbai. Li Danbai was a master of "Long-range Boxing" (Chang Quan), "Yan Qing's Boxing" (Yan Qing Quan), and ground fighting boxing called "Three Coordination Skills" (Sanhe Gong)...
According to the Laiyang County Gazetteer (Laiyang Xianzhi), Li Danbai had an imposing physical bearing which surpassed that of any other. He began his training under "Long-range Boxing" (Chang Quan) master, Gao Dianji but he also studied under Master Yu Zhixiu. Yu Zhixiu was a practitioner of the "Ground Boxing" (Ditang) system and hailed from Xiaoli Cun Village. His system of "Iron Legs" (Tietui) was a mixture of the most hard-earned tactics from the various schools of boxing. Regardless of all these boxing systems Li Danbai had his favorite empty-hand form called the “Main Set of Turning a Water Wheel” (Zhonglu Fanche). He spent all his time perfecting techniques of this form and brought it to the new heights developing extraordinary fighting skills."

[MightyB]

Does the full Zhonglu Fanche survive? I would like to learn it.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

You know what I like about that story? "He spent all his time perfecting techniques of this form and brought it to the new heights developing extraordinary fighting skills." It only takes one good form to give you everything you need provided you put in the time.

[Young Mantis]

Tainan,

You wrote:
"I have two definitions of the term fan che.
The first one comes from WHF beng bu, the 13th movement. Which is "Ride the tiger overturn the chariot pose" and is a type of throw. This most definetly is not the original move's name for several reasons;

first, this name is used for the application of a takedown where the opponent is dropped on the top of his head(and will surely die), while that is not the application in this form."

I am very curious how you came to these conclusions about this technique. I have yet to see this technique used as a takedown in which the opponent is dropped on top of his head nor can I see it interpreted as such. Or are you saying the name WHF used for this technique is for such a takedown and is misnamed? "Kwa Fu Fan Che" simply states the stance used and the hand technique.

You also wrote:
"Second, WHF admits that the form beng bu is named after technique #13 which used to be called beng bu, but he himself changed the name in order to have similarity between similar techniques of other forms(and so later 7* people have a problem knowing why the form is called beng bu and make incorrect translation"crushing step")"

I can agree with part of this. WHF did change some names of the moves in order to standardize the names of techniques that appear in multiple forms. Many of the forms are named after a specific technique contained in that form: "Tong Long Chut Dong" is both the name of the form as well as a specific technique within the form, "Bahk Yuen Tao Tow" is the same way. In fact, most forms do as you mentioned with "Bung Bo". However, that does not mean that the translation of "Bung Bo" as "Crushing Step" should be considered as wrong since it can be taken as a literal translation but also describing the flavor or spirit of technique #13 as I attack my opponent with the Fan Che technique.

IMHO of course,

YM

[Old Mantis]

MightyB,

<Does the full Zhonglu Fanche survive? I would like to learn it.>

Zhonglu Fanche is a part of Jiang Hualong's branch of Plum Blossom/Grand Ultimate Praying Mantis curriculum. It is not considered to be the most important form in the style. My shifu Ilya Profatilov and my shiye (my shifu's shifu) Grandmaster Wang Yuanqian still knows this form.


However, the most important form in our system is a set of 7 forms called "Essentials" (ZHAI YAO).

[EARTH DRAGON]

did you get my personal message or email? please respond thank you

[mantis108]

"first, this name is used for the application of a takedown where the opponent is dropped on the top of his head(and will surely die), while that is not the application in this form."

I am very curious how you came to these conclusions about this technique. I have yet to see this technique used as a takedown in which the opponent is dropped on top of his head nor can I see it interpreted as such. Or are you saying the name WHF used for this technique is for such a takedown and is misnamed? "Kwa Fu Fan Che" simply states the stance used and the hand technique. "

I believe the throw/takedown can be done, although I am not 100% sure if it's the same manner of execution as the 7 Stars (I have no experience in 7 stars). When defending against a mid level kick (either side kick or round house), the takedown is quite obvious with this move. You can take either the inside (risky but will definitely have him head down first) or the outside gate (safer and he might have a chance to land on his back or his side). I think if we look at it from the form's angle. You are most likely going to defend a right kick from your opponent which means you need to take the outside gate. Use footwork that's where the Kwa Fu comes in handy. Use his clothing. Also you lead foot (left) is empty (implied as sweep or kick). So it could be done. Chances of him giving you a left round house is not high but it could happen. So then you will take the inside gate naturally.

One thing of note is that 7 stars applications seems to be more concern with power strikes more so than throws. So it would not be surprising that takedown variations of a move not be addressed in many 7 Stars schools. Just an observation.

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Mantis108,

I agree that the fan che technique can be applied as a takedown technique although I tend not to practice it as a defense against a kick but will take it under consideration.

What spurred me to comment on Tainan's post was that he referred to the fan che in the context of Bung Bo and specifically as movement #13. If we are speaking strictly in the context of that form, I do not agree that it is a takedown at that instance. I base this mostly on the application as taught in the Ling Bung Bo form for this movement. If you were to extract just the one technique out of the form, you can apply it however way you wish. I understand you can extrapolate other scenarios but then I think it strays from the original intent of the technique or the form.

I don't necessarily agree with your observation about 7* lacking takedowns and throws. Much of my sahn sao practice involves takedowns although it is possible that much of those techniques also came from Chiu Sigung. But even when we dissect the 7* forms and Sifu explains the applications, he points out where the takedown techniques are and they are not uncommon.

Your thoughts?

YM

[mantis108]

Hi Young Mantis,

"I agree that the fan che technique can be applied as a takedown technique although I tend not to practice it as a defense against a kick but will take it under consideration."

Glad you would investigate. :)

"What spurred me to comment on Tainan's post was that he referred to the fan che in the context of Bung Bo and specifically as movement #13. If we are speaking strictly in the context of that form, I do not agree that it is a takedown at that instance. I base this mostly on the application as taught in the Ling Bung Bo form for this movement. If you were to extract just the one technique out of the form, you can apply it however way you wish. I understand you can extrapolate other scenarios but then I think it strays from the original intent of the technique or the form. "

I hear you and I understand it is a balance between integrity of the forms (both solo and partnered) and applications based on extracted technique(s). We have to also be aware that takedown moves would disrupt the flow of the form so certain moves that are meant for takedown would be some what "modified" (i.e. the last few moves of the TJPM 2 Men Bung Bo). Although, they don't result in a takedown but the intent is clearly shown in the 2 men Bung Bo. If memory services correctly, I don't seem to recall that type of arrangement in 7 Stars version. I may be wrong for I have only seen 7 Stars version a few times.

"I don't necessarily agree with your observation about 7* lacking takedowns and throws. Much of my sahn sao practice involves takedowns although it is possible that much of those techniques also came from Chiu Sigung. But even when we dissect the 7* forms and Sifu explains the applications, he points out where the takedown techniques are and they are not uncommon.

Your thoughts?"

As far as my observation goes, most of the material (books, magazines, video, etc...) of 7 Stars PM that I have seen, don't seem to have takedown applications or much mentioning of them. Although lately there seems to be more and more talk about it, we have yet to see how 7 Stars approach this type of applications. TJPM, on the other hand, has been demonstrating these publicly in demos and in magazines (I have serval articles with pictures dated back to the 70s). I am not dissing 7 Stars approach. In fact, I have great respect for them. It is stylistic difference and there is nothing wrong with that. I am just saying it would be great to see how 7 Stars does it. I would love to see articles about applications with takedown by 7 Stars stylists. You are properly right that it is hard to tell whether Sigung Chiu had influenced your Sifu in his approach to applications. In case some one is going to say that Jon Funk seems to have takedown and so on so forth, he had worked with a TJPMer (Galen Fok) before so his approach might reflect those encounters too. Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Mighty B,
I'm sorry I don't understand yu jom throw. I will try to detail the throw later.

Old Mantis,
Thanks for the educational post. If I keep saving your posts I should get the entire Ilya article one of these days.
My teacher also has Zhong fan che, although I haven't learned it. I will ask him about it when I get a chance.

Young Mantis,
When my teacher taught me beng bu he said this move(#13) is also known as kua hu fan che shr. He described the meaning as taking a cart and turning it upside down, which is an obviuos meaning of the term fan che.
I said that the app. in the 2 man (ling) is just an inverted punch to the opponent, so why call it fan che?
To which he flipped me over so that I was upside down. I'll give details on how he did that later.
Although, I agree with you that this isn't the meaning of this move in this form. It is just that this posture is the same as another posture with a different application.

As to translating the name beng bu into English, that is another story.
People not interested in language discussions can skip this paragraph.
The word beng literally means crushing or collapsing when translated into English. So if a Chinese person sees this name they will have no idea why the move is called beng bu. That is because beng is a technical term whose meaning is defined by a motion of the body unrelated to crushing or collapsing.
The original meaning of the word beng in the mind of a Chinese has no relation to the meaning or the motion in this form. That is why I consider it to be untranslatable. There are a very large quantity of Chinese terms that don't translate well or become to awkward to use in English speech.

In MA the word beng(several different characters are used) means to make your weapon pop up from a low position to a high one.
EG: beng chiang, beng jian, means popping up spear and sword.

Since you know the 2 man for this form I'll assume that we do this movement(#13) the same way.
So just before my left hand does that inverted punch of #13 it is on the opponents left hand having just performed "lo" of go-lo-tsai. Agreed?

From this position my left hand is already partially extended. If I withdraw the left hand so that I can develop more power in the punch my opponent will "hear" it and easily counter.
The solution is to pop the body forward(all 7* people do this) and lean the body back(a less common motion). The hips go forward and the shoulders slightly back causing the left hand to rise using the body muscle as opposed to using muscles in the left arm.

If you do this move differently you may find it difficult to agree with me. That is okay, it is just another aspect of PM to consider.

Mantis 108,
In 7* throws and takedowns are often the final goal. By watching the 2 man forms this won't always be apparent as the counter to the throw is done so smoothly that an observer may miss what happened. Just sitting here thinking about beng bu there are 17 throws not including the fan che move.

[MightyB]

"There are a very large quantity of Chinese terms that don't translate well or become to awkward to use in English speech".

Tell me about it. That's pretty much why I stopped having my teacher translate the names. One of these years, I'll learn Cantonese. It's tough though---

[Young Mantis]

Tainan Mantis,

You and I do #13 from Bung Bo the same way.

As for the name of this move, I have only this more to add. I believe we are using different characters for "fan che". The "fan" that I am using would be first tone in Mandarin and in this case, "fan che" means windmill. You sound like you are using "fan" in third tone meaning flip, reverse, oppose.

I am not surprised at this and have found it to be a very common occurrence. Many of the words, even names of people have discrepencies because the characters sound alike. I believe when the information was passed down, much of it may have been orally and the characters were often confused. Now also take into consideration that this style was founded in Northern China and later brought to Southern China, Hong Kong, Vietnam,... It is not surprising that characters have changed in the translation from one dialect to another.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

I have before me 2 Chinese English dictionaries and several PM manuscripts.

7* beng bu 13th move called "...fan che"
It just so happens this exact term is in the dictionary with 2 different meanings

1. a scoop wheel (this seems in accordance with Ilay Profatilov's definition or very close to it).

2.(of a vehicle) to overturn; to capsize.


According to these two definitions it seems logical that the term fan che can have two definitions in PM. This follows my own shr fu's explanation.

But in WHF 3 forms;
-hsiao fan che
-da fan che
-mei hwa lu(luo)

he uses a different character with the same sound and tone, but missing the feather radical. This character means-order in a series. This is the character he uses to describe the technique where the hands spin around and look like the spokes of a wheel.

These 3 forms all come from mei hwa PM and mei hwa uses the same character that is used in beng bu move #13. Not the character that WHF uses.

So it seems that WHF or his teacher made a mistake in choosing "fan" character for the 3 forms:
-hsiao fan che
-da fan che
-mei hwa lu

[Young Mantis]

Tainan,

This has become an interesting discussion for me. I have not gone into my manuscripts as much as I have recently and examining the characters so closely. ;)

Looking at the WHF books that I have, it appears that the only time the character "fan" with the feather radical is used is for #13 in Bung Bo. In all other cases, the character without the feather radical is used. This is the case with the form names like "Dai Fan Che" and "Siu Fan Che". It is also this character for the technique names whether it's the continuously rotating hammer strikes like in "Mui Fah Lok" and "Dai Ga Sik" or the single uppercut found in "Tchahp Choy" and "Sup Bat Sao".

So now I wonder why the character used in Bung Bo would be different than every other book printed by WHF. One hypothesis that I just noticed may be that Bung Bo was the earliest form printed by WHF. On the back of one of the books list the original printing dates for some of his earlier books and it lists Bung Bo as the second book published, but the first of the forms and printed in 1936. I wonder if it was a decision to change the character later or a printing error that was never corrected in later reprintings.

Whatever the case, it has made for some interesting research. Thank you for engaging this discussion with me. It has brought out some details I had not noticed before.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Did you mean to say published in 1946?

Mistakes in WHF's works are possible.
I have a 25 page article written in 1931 about Lohan PM. I believe it is a student of Fan Hsu Dongs.
If so, this article may help resolve some differences between the names of 12 fexible in mei hwa and 7*.
As I have time I will translate interesting portions.

[Tainan Mantis]

Young Mantis,
In WHF's preface to "Random Writings on PM" he says:
"...From the year 35 I published Elucidations on Secrets of PM..."
and
"...every yaer I publish one book..."(at the time he had already published 9)

Here the year 35 is based on the ROC numbering system which starts from the year 1911. So that would be 1946. The next book, beng bu, was published later that year. I know I have it written down in a book of his somewhere, but it will take a while to find it.

Three things confuse the issue.
-ROC dating system
-WHF own method of writing the year often uses a traditional Chinese system based on galactic rotation
-republished books in the East never mention the original publishing date

[seung ga faat]

Let me jump around in the form and find the throws:
1. Daan jueng/au bou choy -Bok yuen chinda (also known as fung tong)
2. Bok yuen cheng haak/ wah sek bo

I will continue when I have more time

:)
________
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________
FIX PS3 (http://fixps3.info/)

[Young Mantis]

Hey Tainan,

I see what you are saying and understand then my mistake on the year for the publishing date. I'll have to check more carefully before I write next time. At least I got the part about Bung Bo being the first form to be published right....I think. :)

YM