Cross Training? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Jaguar Wong

11-13-2001, 11:40 PM

If you're just taking a year or two of one style, then moving on, and not even incorporating the previous style in anything else you do, then you're style hopping. You're basically adding stuff to your resume', not your arsenal.

A lot of times you will see someone list their styles as XX years in Wing Chun, XX years in Eagle Claw, XX years in Shuai Chiao, and to some it appears that they may be just sampling from the pot, but if you look deeper, you will find that they are still practicing at least one of the styles they list. Chances are that is their base, or core style. The other arts, even if they're no longer practicing them, are/were used to suppliment their base.

If you have a good solid base, then crosstraining will only help you become more comfortable against a wider variety of opponents/situations.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

joedoe

11-14-2001, 12:16 AM

The old masters used to cross train all the time. However, I think you should cross train styles that complement each other. Each style you cross train should provide skills that are lacking in other styles you cross train, the aim being to get a rounded skill set.

Or you can follow the specialist line of thinking and get really good in one particular skill set.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

Mr. Nemo

11-14-2001, 01:42 AM

The old masters did cross train (some of them, at least). PJO is correct that it's bad to train in two arts that have different fundamentals. However, two arts that don't conflict with each other are good to train in, such as two arts that deal with different ranges of combat.

The posters here are also correct about having a strong base in a single art - this will make your crosstraining much more useful.

Ryu

11-14-2001, 01:54 AM

Jaguar Wong beat me to it.

Crosstraining is when you actually spend time learning, understanding, and using the martial art you are taught, and developing it so that it can be used in your aresenal.

I will say, however, that I don't think a person necessarily has to stay in the same SCHOOL for years, etc. During my grappling years, for example, I've spent a year or so with Carlos Machado, trained in some of Paul Vunak's grappling systems, spent years training judo with some guys, spent another year at another judo dojo, etc.

The point is that you do not take a "week" of grappling and think you know how to grapple, then take a week of boxing and think you know how to box, and a week of kickboxing, etc.

You have to always study these arts. You always train them, you always use them, you always go back to the schools and learn them.

I've been grappling now for almost 6 years in various judo schools, clubs, BJJ schools, etc.

The time I've spent on my grappling training is much more than a simple year, but I don't necessarily think you have to stay with one particular school forever. Another school may address something you want at that moment, and you train it to make yourself better at it, then move on to another, etc. But you still stay in the "art" you are in whether it be grappling, boxing, kickboxing, etc.

Some people think this is disloyal to the dojo...
:( I've thought about that too. But just because I leave a dojo to work on another aspect of my game doesn't mean I won't return, etc.
Well.... I may be alone in that kind of thinking.
I'm more loyal to myself learning what I want to learn rather than staying with a school out of politics sake...

hope no one stones me :D

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg

"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Martial Joe

11-14-2001, 04:01 AM

Personaly I recamend one stand up art and one ground art...

Thats what I have done...

I plan on learning submissions and transform my wrestling into sub wrestling...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

SantaClaus

11-14-2001, 05:27 AM

jaguar wong is correct. I'm glad he could clarify that.

Then again, I'm not gonna pay for tkd. I can just work on kicking in the same ways they do. Changing focus in training. Or take up boxing or wrestling as an additional sport. I also cross train with soccer, kickboxing, san shou, hiking.

HIKING IS MENTIONED IN TAOIST CLASSICS FOR BOOSTING CHI.

Its all good, just make your kung fu iron, and play.

Martial Joe

11-14-2001, 05:33 AM

I was actually thinking about how soccer could make your kicking skills alot! better...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

CerberusXXL

11-15-2001, 06:13 AM

Cross training can be very beneficial if the martial artist is able to make the best of what he/she has learned.
On the other hand, I think that jumping from one martial arts to another too quickly can lead to poor results.

Chang Style Novice

11-15-2001, 06:24 AM

The original cross trainer was Yeshua ben Yosef, who achieved some amazing results with his techniques, including the redemption of all mankind's sins. He may have taken it a little far, though. You probably don't need to cross train quite as much as that.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

joedoe

11-15-2001, 06:29 AM

Cross training = good if you train each style solidly and learn the principles properly.

Cross dressing = bad no matter what the circumstances :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

Repulsive Monkey

11-15-2001, 04:00 PM

I personally would not bother to cross-train as a rule as learning to master one single art usually does take a life-time. People do seem to take an interest (in varying degress) in other arts and incorporate what they learn or maybe go the whole hog and drop it for another. It all depends on what you are looking for. If you are not happy with committing yourself to the mastery of one art, then maybe you want to cross-examine others looking for similar threads, or even just compatible ones. This is ok if its you want from martial arts, but I must say sticking with one art and mastering seems to be a sadly underated thing nowadays.

Not all Masters cross-trained, this was a generalised mistake to make who ever said it earlier.

Nichiren

11-15-2001, 04:21 PM

jaguar wong and ABandit are correct. I think cross-training can be rewarding but style hopping is useless. Stay with one style and try others.

E.g. if you would like to learn to deliver devastating kicks and have to choose between Thai and tkd the choise is simple. What is most compatible with WC --> Thai!

apoweyn

11-15-2001, 05:07 PM

what, exactly, do we mean when we describe "mastering" a style?

i know, abstractly, that we're referring to remaining in one style and devoting all your efforts to it. but "mastering"? when does someone feel that they've mastered a style? nevermind when the rest of us see fit to describe them that way. when do they feel that they've gotten that style completely right?

so what does it mean? being able to make that one style work in any circumstances? how do you test that?

that's part of my problem. i have no good, working, testable definition of "master." it's an honorific. not meaningless, but not an objective measurement either.

stuart b.

Jaguar Wong

11-15-2001, 06:26 PM

Ap Owyen,
I do agree, one never really "masters" a style. But the devotion to a single style can make their tehcnique a lot more natural, and sometimes much more powerful than if they shifted their focus onto other thing. I do applaud RepulsiveMonkey's decision to stick with and attempt to master a single style.

But the key to truly mastering it doesn't just lie in the drills, and training, you also should be testing your skills. I don't mean by streetfighting, or even entering the UFC, but you really should get some exposure to other styles. If you feel that your style is complete, and does have solid principles for dealing with any attacker, the best thing to do would be to find out, by meeting, and practicing with other people outside of your style, and school. I don't mean learn what they're learning, I mean learn how to use your training against their style. You both learn that way.

So again, I do prefer to cross train, but if not, I feel it's essential to expose your skills to other styles to see what attributes/principles in your style you need to develop. It's just that chances are the key to defeating a particular style, lies within that style (ie: grapplers have the best anti-grappling defense, styles with heavy Chin Na tend to have better counters against Chin Na, etc).

It's all a personal journey, though, and I don't feel that anyone is wrong in the path they choose, unless of course they're out ordering CD-Roms, and video games, instead of actually going out and shedding the blood sweat and tears to earn the skills.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

apoweyn

11-15-2001, 06:35 PM

jaguar,

yeah. that's much closer to a working definition of a master of their style. that's precisely the sort of thing i was gunning for.

someone who can apply their style in various circumstances. and i think you hit the nail on the head with the observation that you can't know that without exposure to other styles, fighters, etc. like you said, it needn't be a streetfight or NHB. but an alive sort of sparring, whatever.

well said.

stuart b.

Jaguar Wong

11-15-2001, 06:38 PM

I should write this crap down. ;)

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

apoweyn

11-15-2001, 06:42 PM

yes you should, brutha. yes you should.

:)

Ryu

11-15-2001, 06:48 PM

A solid base is important to me. Although if you look at people like Frank Shamrock, they kind of started their "base" in MMA.
I'm always going to practice judo, but I guess my cross training lets me make it more functional. I can functionalize my clinching, throwing, and newaza because of my cross training in BJJ, boxing, etc.

Nicheren, if you don't mind, could you explain the significance of your screen name? :)
I know a couple people from that Buddhist branch.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg

"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

nightair

11-15-2001, 08:20 PM

I feel that you should dedicate to one art but be familiar with all others you cross. This way you wont be suprised by any fighter you come across.

---------------------------"uh oh, what is going to happen next?"

apoweyn

11-15-2001, 09:22 PM

how can you do that though? that insinuates that you can understand another art without actually practicing it. and while i think you can make certain logical leaps from observation or by relating something to what you already know, i also believe that there are some insights that come from actually doing.

for example, i could make predictions about a knifefighter's behavior just based on what i know about knives. but having actually trained to use one, i believe i have a better idea what to expect.

does that make sense?

KC Elbows

11-15-2001, 09:42 PM

Perfect sense.

By the same token, fighting other stylists will teach you things about how your style responds to certain threats better than taking another style.

City, your toast will never go unbuttered again! -The Tic

apoweyn

11-15-2001, 10:07 PM

very well put, kc!

i think you've just hit on the essence of style hopping. there's no sense of relation between one experience and the other. rather than learning something about yourself and your practice by exposure to other styles, you train in one style then another hoping that the presence of both (rather than the synthesis of one into the other) will guarantee success.

in other words, training in boxing and then training in judo is no guarantee that you will be able to use both in a flowing manner. if you don't give considerable thought to how to transition from one to the other, then it won't work.

boxing punches and judo throws (generalizations, i realise). but without some sort of connective strategy, they won't fit together. (how do i go from the punching range effectively to a takedown range?)

so whether you're sticking with one style or crosstraining in several, the process seems the same. start with one thing, then relate new things to it, building an understanding.

to do otherwise (to start over with a new understanding with each new style) seems a bit counterproductive: style hopping.

i've thought for a while now that the distinction between crosstraining and not is not nearly as profound as it seems.

stuart b.

KC Elbows

11-15-2001, 10:17 PM

I agree. Eventually, I want to learn pa kua, but part of the selection process that led me to pa kua(other than it being the shiznit) is that my system already contains some pa kua, and the transition would be natural, the styles would complement each other, and then I'd have a lot of throws, which I want to involve more of in my fighting.

City, your toast will never go unbuttered again! -The Tic

apoweyn

11-15-2001, 11:01 PM

exactly. that way, new additions become part of a growing understanding and not just a new but separate thing.

besides, you'd get to "walk the circle." i never get to walk the circle. in eskrima, i'm stuck with these crummy triangles.

[grin stupidly]

stuart b.

zen_celt

12-20-2001, 06:42 PM

Personally, I enjoy studying a variety of arts and learning new perspectives in regards to fighting. I'm wondering, though, how smart it is to study a number of different arts at the same time. In my case, it looks like I'll be starting Bujinkan Taijutsu with the new year(woohoo!). I'm trying to decide, though, if I should also study Kung Fu at the same time. I would like to learn at the Hsing I academy when I get my new job but I'm wonderig if it's wise to do so or if studying the multiple styles will screw up my training. If I go to the Hsing Institute and study taijutsu, I'll be doing 4 different styles at once(Pa Kua, TaiJi, Hsing I, Ninjutsu). What do you guys' think?
-ZC

SevenStar

12-20-2001, 07:11 PM

I'm all for crosstraining. Dunno if I'd train 3 internal styles at once though.

logic

12-20-2001, 07:11 PM

I don't know about 4 different styles at once.I have studied 4 different styles in a 20 year period 5 if you include boxing.They all have something to offer and I have learned very good techniques from all of them.

The most I've studied at one time is 2 different styles.I really don't think I could handle anymore than that because of life in general you know, work,girlfriend,social life with friends,but mostly because of work.
So any more than 2 styles at one time for me would be to scatterd out.I wouldn't really get a good grasp on any certain art.
But I guess it would be better than no art at all.

So I guess you really have to decide for yourself.
Do you think you can handle all that at one time.
Do you have the time to do 4 arts.
Will you leave yourself thinned out and not getting a true hold on any given art.

If you think you can, go for it.
But think it over first(and what the hell it can't hurt to try)

Water Dragon

12-20-2001, 07:12 PM

I'd say stick with the Bujin, at least for a while. The art may be Japanese, but they use Chinese mechanics. Don't put too much on your plate at once. Hatsumi's a friggin genius and has excellant material. Check your teacher's credential's with Noda City first, there's a lot of crap and the Bujin keep pretty good records of who is and isn't what they claim.

MonkeySlap Too

12-20-2001, 07:32 PM

Pick something and stick with it until it is a part of you. Understand it and be able to use it. Usage is the heart of kung fu.

Learn from other schools by friendly fights with them.

Once you have a solid place to start from, identify your weaknesses and seek out those arts that fill them.

Otherwise your just collecting.

SevenStar

12-20-2001, 07:50 PM

Follow MonkeySlap's plan, or something along those lines. YOu don't necessarily have to train in the other styles, just spar with people from those schools. Make friends with them; train with them outside of class. You will exchange techs with them, and learn things about their style by sparring with them. assimilate that which you find useful into your style.

zen_celt

12-20-2001, 09:28 PM

Thanks guys. I figured I'd start with the Bujinkan and see how I progress there before branching out. I'm just thinking in the future, I'd like to do more, but 4 seemed a bit much(unless it's Muay Thai, boxing and the like). At the Hsing I institute you have the option of studying all three at once and I liked that but I figured I'd be stretched really thin. Oh well, things to think about for a while. I think for now I'll stay with the Bujinkan twice a week and TaiJi on the weekends. At least then I've got two arts without too much time hassle. Maybe I can tack on more later...
-ZC

scotty1

12-21-2001, 07:25 AM

I think MonkeySlap's idea is pretty good.

Everyone needs a base, otherwise if you react instinctively what are you going to do? Hesitate:)

red5angel

12-21-2001, 09:53 AM

its a good question and much debated on this forum. I am quickly becoming the most outspoken proponent for not cross training. I wont go into it since in general I get jumped on like a three legged cat being chased by a pack of dogs.
I will say though that if you are determined to cross train, you should spend some real quality time building up the base to your "house". I would highly recommend several years, the reason I say this is because you want to learn your base intimately, get to know it so well that you can look at each form, technique, or what have you and find a few permutations for each. Most dont have one specific use but can be altered slightly to adjust for all kinds of eventualities. Once you get to the point where you feel you know your art inside and out, then branch out.
Cross training several arts at once is folly. Like I was told a while back, if you are cross training several arts at once, and especially just learning them, everytime you switch you have to empty your cup and refill it. For beginners this can take some time.

Repulsive Monkey

12-21-2001, 03:50 PM

Hope I dont put you off but that Taijutsu course sounds decidely dodgy if you ask me. Many internal arts Masters spent their whole lifes trying to reach mastery in just one field and it took them all that continued effort to reach theri acheivements. I do not feel that doing a combined course like that will get anyone very far.
Plus how can that be an internal course when you're studying Ninjutsu mixed in with it? Granted Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Bagua are Internal arts but ninjutsu certainly isn't an internal art in the way that ther other three are. That course sounds a little suspect to me.

Fu-Pow

01-17-2002, 11:49 AM

I've seen a lot of MA's out there who are in really crappy general condition. Fat taekwondo teachers, fat sifus, fat sensai's. It's hard to believe that these guys could go 2 rounds let alone 10 rounds. What do you guys think about that? Can you be a good martial artist and be a fat? And what do you do outside of MA's to cross train?

I've started running a couple of miles 3 times a week. Although I'm really strong and fit, my body fat seems higher than it should be and I think it slows me down. So I'm working in some cardiovascular on the side.

Johnny Hot Shot

01-17-2002, 12:00 PM

I'm going to have to say yes on this one.

Sice MA training is not for the ring a practitioner does not need to be able to go 10 rounds.

MA trainig is for Self defence so in a street situation the Chubby MA only need to last mabey 1 minute.

Most street fights don't last very long.

On the otherhand just letting oneself get into that kind of shape is like a weakness in ones training.

My JKD instructor says he intentionaly gained weight because he was getting tired of being thrown around by his BJJ mates. Now, he is lightning fast and really powerful and I would never want to mess with his ice cream eating @ss.

Cardio is great and it is nice to be ripped (Think of the chicks Man!). But you can still have endurance and be carrying around a lot of fat. Their are ranges of cardio to train at for losing fat and for increasing endurance. At the high end of cardio training you stop burning fat. You can actually loose muscle if training at this intensity for too long without nourishment.

Good luck with your training.

red5angel

01-17-2002, 12:10 PM

Fu-Pow, I think it is all about what you are doing it for in the first place. If you want to fight professionally, then you better be in good shape! But for your average MA guy, I don think it is all that important. I think you can still be a good MA and be fat, or can even teach good MA and be fat. I have seen some guys who could use a few less calories in thier diet but are good martial artist, not the kind of guy you would want to mess with.
My first MA teacher ever was a big guy, but man he could stay with the best of us in sparring and he was good!

Robinf

01-17-2002, 12:15 PM

We have a couple of overweight black belts who can outspar me and almost everyone else any day of the week (and I'm quite trim). So, size really shouldn't matter that much.

Martial arts should condition you to be able to take care of yourself in real life. If, in real life you're fat, then you're training should make you able to take care of yourself as a fat person.

Robin

Water Dragon

01-17-2002, 01:51 PM

Not all of those guys with big bellys are fat ;)

Johnny Hot Shot

01-17-2002, 02:17 PM

They' re pregnant :D

Water Dragon

01-17-2002, 02:22 PM

In a sense, Yes

biobot

03-24-2002, 12:25 PM

I was wondering what the advantages and disadvantages of mixing muay thai leg work with a center-line CMA or western boxing like upper body method would be.

The Muay Thai guys always seem to have the wide(non center-line) arm positions. I'm wondering how things would differ without it. I assume that clinching would be more difficult.

Thanks for any comments. I asked this last week in the other arts section, but I didn't get any replies so I'm trying here now. Thanks again.

LEGEND

03-24-2002, 12:59 PM

Muay Thai guys don't like to punch...the fear of breaking their hands is too much...they prefer to clinch and elbow/knees. Something to keep in mind if u're practicing self defense. Punching to the head of your opponent is like hitting a bowling ball and no form of conditioning can truly protect your hands. Although boxing footwork is superior...they are trying to maintain distance when striking...muy thai guys are trying to get the clinch and kill you.

Sharky

03-24-2002, 01:14 PM

I didn't know that.

biobot

03-25-2002, 05:18 PM

Thanks for the replies. I have a bunch of Muay Thai friends I am hoping to start working out with. I feel that the area I am lacking the most in is kicking. So I am hoping to gain some new skills with kicks and knees. I am wondering if adapting any of the muay thai leg work without the upper body would create any inherent flaws. I feel confident with my upper body style and structure, and I wouldn't want to totally scrap it.

Dark Knight

05-09-2002, 08:41 AM

Most of us cross train or have been involved in different styles through the years. As we learn we add to our arsenal from our experience. In a sense we are creating our own style because we stylize or change the style to what fits us the best.

We always hear someone talk about who has the best kicks, throws, punches, hand work….but how accurate is that statement. If there was a best way to kick everyone would kick that way. And if a style was the best then everyone would be doing that one style. Even in boxing there are a couple styles of boxing that have been proven effective.

I have met a couple people who talk about how they took a couple different styles and change to that style to confuse the opponent. This doesn’t make sense. Why limit yourself a a time, and why cross train if you are not going to integrate it all together to become more effective.

I have found that what works best for me I use (As I’m sure everyone here thinks) but I don’t differentiate the information. So when I’m fighting with some one I don’t think “I need to use my TKD skills” or “My Kempo will be best here” or “I change from a northern style to Judo half way through”. Fighting is fighting, when I am fighting I use what is natural and effective, after the fight I don’t decide that my X skills came through, it was my training in general that came through.

GunnedDownAtrocity

05-09-2002, 08:49 AM

i agree with some of what you had to say, but sporting events are different than fighting, and i could see how switching flavors of your own personal style could be a strategic advanatage. i probably wouldnt do it, but i could see myself falling for the trap maybe.

Dark Knight

05-09-2002, 09:11 AM

"i agree with some of what you had to say, but sporting events are different than fighting, and i could see how switching flavors of your own personal style could be a strategic advanatage. "

I dont mean it in a sportive way. Fighting should not be a style but a way. If you have been working out with your neigbor in the back yard and picked up some nice footwork that he learned, are you going to say because its not in your style you are going to ignore it?

I didnt train in other styles to become a MMA. It just worked out based on me moving and meeting others.

If you have been in the arts for 10 years or more you are going to bring in your own flavor to the table. I have seen many student from the same instructor start teaching on thier own. After a few years you can see how they have changed the way they fight, this was not a concious change, it just happens.

Change shuold not be a forced thing, it come naturally from experience. How you move, your agressivness, your views on fighting. Your training from your instructor will have a lot to do with it, but as you grow you cannot stop change.

GunnedDownAtrocity

05-09-2002, 10:19 AM

ok i agree then. i'm kinda stupid so i thought you were talking about ring fights. i could see the logic in the ring, but fighting should be what training (in any style) has made second nature

TaoBoy

07-14-2002, 11:40 PM

Anyone out there like to share what type of training (weights, cardio, yoga etc.) they do outside MA and how it helps their MA training?

Merci. :)

No_Know

07-15-2002, 04:16 AM

I mop sometimes. It develops my grip, shoulder and abs for a swing in staff form. Or mop with just close to the end of the mop handle to strengthen wrist+ (forearm, hand), fingers, upperarm, shoulder--pectoralis, deltoids, rhomboid... latisimus and abdominals for straightsword. And, Sweeping to practice T'ai Chi Ch'uan stepping (sideways and shifting weight) and arm position and turning of Cloud Hands.~ And vacuum cleaning to improve footwork of transition then solid stance. Or make figure eight while stepping forwards or backwards in Horse-riding stance. To develop whatever the horse-riding stance develops. Pluss it improves the stance. Develops the arm from the feet throughout the body to the fingertips.

Dark Knight

07-15-2002, 12:23 PM

Running improved both my cardio and the power of my kicks. My sweeps became extremely effective after I started running. I highly reccomend it, run three to four times a week.

Suntzu

07-15-2002, 12:37 PM

if that's the case No_Know... i gots some training that you can do at my crib...

i do weights once/twicw a week... run once/twice a week(i need to step that up tho... regular training 4 days a week... and every now and than i'll play basketball... but i haven't done that in a while....

Kempo Guy

07-15-2002, 04:32 PM

Outside of my MA training, I usually supplement with Kettlebell training, skipping rope and joint strength training a la SuperJoints or Warrior Wellness programs.

I've found that the Kettlebell training has helped my overall endurance (cardio and strength) and skipping rope has helped my sparring as I don't gas as easily. The joint strength training has increased my range of motion and helped with muscle flexibility, which has made me more fluid and powerful when sparring.

TaoBoy

07-15-2002, 04:42 PM

KG, I'm not familiar with the term Kettleball. Please explain. (d@mn these geographical terminology anomolies.) :)

Kempo Guy

07-16-2002, 08:49 AM

Taoboy,

A Kettlebell is a 'old-school' strongman type equipement popularized recently by Pavel Tsatsouline.

It actually looks like a cannonball with a fat handle on one end. You can also do the exercises with a dumbbell but I've found using the KB's to be more challenging due to it's displacement of weight and different center of gravity. You can find more information at dragondoor.com
As I mentioned, it's a great tool (imo) for overall strength and cardiovascular endurance as well as grip strength.

You may want to do a search on Kettlebell under the "Kung Fu Training & Health" forum for more information as there's been several discussions over there in regards to this method of training. If you need some more information, don't hesitate to ask.

I'd also forgot to mention that I also do a lot of bodyweight exercises ala "Scrapper's workout", which I've found to be great for supplementing MA training for overall body conditioning.

KG

TaoBoy

09-23-2002, 11:15 PM

For those of you who train multiple martial arts...

- do you consider yourself to study one art primarily and compliment it with others?

- what does your primary instructor think about your cross training?

- if you have a primary style, how often to you train it and your other style/s?

- are the styles complimentary?

- do you find yourself getting confused with techniques etc?

SevenStar

09-23-2002, 11:30 PM

I don't look at it that way. I just develop my skills as I feel the need. my main focus now is grappling, both standing and ground, which I spend about 13 hours a week doing. My "Primary" would be longfist and muay thai, but those have taken somewhat of a backseat to my clinch and grappling work for the time being. my cma is being done approx. 4 - 6 hours a week.

Both my "Primary" and "secondary" teachers are cool with the crosstraining as it's what I want to do.

The styles are very complimentary as they help me to flow between ranges.

There is some crossover between the grappling styles, but the techniques are essentially the same, so it doesn't matter.

yenhoi

09-24-2002, 07:57 AM

I also 'crosstrain' and find there is no real confusion between 'styles.'

You should train your body and your skills, not some 'style' or its look or feel.

apoweyn

09-24-2002, 08:00 AM

do you consider yourself to study one art primarily and compliment it with others?

not at this point, honestly. when i studied taekwondo, that was all i studied. when i studied eskrima, i considered myself an eskrimador with a background in taekwondo. now, i don't really think about it that much. i can do what i can do. if i have to address the question, though, i describe myself as a mutt. taekwondo, eskrima, and kickboxing. it's not especially descriptive, but it'll have to do.

that said, i do think that eskrima and kickboxing now form the... filter(?) through which new experiences pass. i concentrate on empty hand nowadays. so when i encounter, say, grappling, i'm thinking 'how would i transition to that move from my kickboxing stance?' or 'how would that footwork affect my ability to punch or throw a round kick?' that sort of thing.

it's not really a question of political or familial allegiance. i feel a loyalty to most of my past instructors in some sense. they deserve my respect in all cases. my friendship in some cases. but in any event, my 'primary' style is more a question of a frame of reference for new information rather than a school or stylistic affiliation.

what does your primary instructor think about your cross training?

oddly, i do consider that i have a primary instructor. he's not my longest-standing instructor. but he is the one with whom i relate the most in training terms. he's part of dan inosanto's lineage(though he doesn't use the term JKD much anymore, preferring to avoid the issue much as i do). anyway, given his background in bando, shooto, taiji, eskrima, etc. he keenly encourages crosstraining.

if you have a primary style, how often to you train it and your other style/s?

well, i tend to think in terms of... modes, i guess. and right now, i tend to take my training opportunities where i can get them. so i've trained recently with a group of tangsoodo/karate practitioners and now with a taekwondo/karate practitioner. both afford me the opportunity to work on the kickboxing 'mode.' weapons, i haven't had the chance to practice lately (and frankly, i'm more interested in empty hand right now anyway). and grappling, i'm hoping to get more involved with in the near future. so, without thinking in terms of individual styles, my training is about 99 percent kickboxing/striking.

are the styles complimentary?

given enough time and thought, most styles are, to my mind. it's not a question of finding the right jigsaw puzzle piece for the hole. it's a question of making the necessary adaptations in both bodies of knowledge to adapt them into a workable whole. for example, if i'm going to use a more squared kickboxing stance, and i want to throw a sidekick, i need to work out how i'm going to transition my leg into the proper position. if i used a more side-on stance, that wouldn't be as big a deal. but then, i couldn't throw that rear cross as readily. so i have to figure out how i'm going to reconcile those things. a turn of the hip here, a shift of the foot there, and i'm all set.

do you find yourself getting confused with techniques etc?

nope. provided you're in an environment that's more concerned with principle than detail, that's rarely a problem. i may not parry exactly the way a wing chun guy might. and if i were being judged by a wing chun standard, i might have problems. i might get confused between my wing chun parry and my eskrima parry. but if i'm being judged on my ability to get either my face or the opponent's punch off of the line of engagement (i.e., if i'm being judged on the effect rather than the form), there's not much to be confused about. understand the principle, perform the function.

stuart b.

MightyB

09-24-2002, 08:13 AM

I read that Chuck Norris semi-autobiographical book "Secrets to Inner Power" or something like that, and he summarized cross training about as nicely as I've ever read. He likened martial arts training to spokes on a wheel. You divide the attributes into categories like striking, grappling, longevity, kicking, internal development, combat,... however you like, you decide, then he makes a graphical representation of each of them seperately in the form of a bar for how he feels about his own skills in that area. Then he arranges the bars into a spoke-like-wheel pattern. He looks at the pattern and it tells him instantly where he's not balanced, and then he works on "balancing his wheel".

Kempo Guy

09-24-2002, 08:50 AM

Taoboy,

My primary art is probably JKD Concepts and Nejia (primarily Xing Yi and some Ba Gua). I also study some grappling. I train Neijia about three times a week and JKDC about one to two times a week. My Grappling is a part of my other classes.

I don't really distinguish these arts as seperate units, rather I look at these styles to develop my skills in different areas (attribute development), similar to what 'MightyB' paraphrasing Chuck Norris above.

For instance, my Neijia teacher does not teach forms as much as principles of the art, which makes moving from one 'style' to the 'other' quite easy. It's more about body mechanics, structural alignement, power generation, force vectors etc. Learning an art this way makes the different styles easier to integrate.

On the other hand, my JKDC instructor uses many of the ideas of Matt Thornton, Paul Vunak and Tony Blauer. Since most of our training here is 'sparring' based, I can integrate the principles I have learned in Neijia to what we do. Also, the JKDC compliments as I'm learning more about 'fear-reactivity', 'adrenal response' by doing scenario based training and other drills.

Since neither of the 'systems' I learn are technique based, it makes it much easier to integrate these together as there never are any conflicting principles. Good body mechanics is always good body mechanics regardless of style. This is what both my teachers have shared with me. I feel pretty fortunate as both my teachers are pretty open-minded and don't mind their students experimenting with other arts as they both have learned from numerous teachers in various systems.

I don't know if this is the type of info you're looking for but...

Later,
KG

TaoBoy

09-25-2002, 04:08 PM

Thanks guys.

That Chuck Norris idea is a good one...I'll have to use that...at present that wheel would not be looking particularly balanced. :)

Cheers.

Octavius

01-21-2004, 12:21 AM

For those of you who have a solid foundation in one art, and cross train in another art...

Does it/has it happen to you that (I guess mostly in teh beginning of the second art) when you start in your second art, altho you're pretty good/decent in your original art, none of those skills really translate over and you feel like you suck in your second art just like a newbie? I guess a third person would say that you're doing well, picking things up, but you yourself feel like you _could_ be doing so much better, but you're not? (This is assuming that you're being serious and true to learning the second art as is - with an empty cup, such as it is...) I guess we have good days and bad days, but man, today was a bad day. Thought I'd like to hear from some other people's stories...

Mr Punch

01-21-2004, 12:40 AM

My aikido teacher, and I think this is fairly common to aikido and trad Japanese approaches, used to say, "Every time you take the bow (at the start of the class) you should forget everything"... meaning the stress of a long day at work, all your previous overanalysis, self-critcism, mistakes etc.

Of course, some students would take it too far, so we all had name tags.

Of course, this is also a reason why all aikidoka suck.

But seriously, from my experience, and certainly when I have begun a new art, you should start every class with an empty cup. In that way you can prevent yourself from overcriticizing your every move and dwelling on your past failures, and can have a better chance of absorbing new stuff as a reflex, IMO.

As for my personal cock-ups, when I started karate I was always trying to angle off the blows and move offline like in aiki. When I started wingchun I was always trying to move offline and retaining the opponent's arm too much and often instead of that explosive trappy/jerky energy. When I started kendo I was always moving offline, striking/kicking to the legs, cutting too straight through, and moving forward with backweighting.

As I progressed in karate, my teacher told me to angle off the blows and move offline. As I progressed in wingchun, my teacher told me to step offline more to cut the angles, and sometimes to retain the arm. As I progressed in kendo, my teacher beat the living bejoolies out of me... but at least he told me to cut straighter through.

Keep trying, start every class with an empty cup, and you'll realize it's all the same. Except BJJ, which is apparently about doing someone in the dog. :eek: :D

What are you studying and what's your problem?

sanjuro_ronin

04-11-2008, 08:07 AM

So...why'd you do it Paul?

Seemed like the thing to do at the time !

While many like to critique those that cross train in various systems, usually without asking/knowing why, the vast majority of people that do MA for practical ie: fighting purposes know the reason.

That said, usually there are other reasons too.

When I started MA in 78 I started with Hung kuen and did it till 82 when my folks and I moved back to Portugal, where there was no "kung fu" at all.
Well...not "offically"in my area, but more on that later.
So in Portugal I took up Boxing, wrestling at the local sports club and then Karate and Judo, and did that for 5 years.
During that period I was introduced to an old gentleman from Macao ( via his nephew) and he taught us "kung fu" ( hung Ga and WC), I did that for the last 2 years there.
When we moved back to Canada, the nearest MA school was a TKD dojang and since m y kicks needed work ( I liked TKD kicks :D) I joined.
I was already a BB in Karate, a brown in Judo and had a nice Junior record in boxing from my time in Portugal.
A couple of years after that, I was re-intoduced to Kung fu via the JKD way and took up judo and boxing again ( ah the energy of youth),
I moved away from the TKD Dojang and as such had to stop training it, but hooked up with another place for about 2 years and then stopped at altogether.
Before I joined the army in 94 I got my nidan in kyokushin and shodan in Judo having done both at the same time over a span of 4 years.
In the army I kept up my boxing and judo and karate, while be introduced to MT and some Sambo.
After I left the Army in 98, it was back to kung fu for a bit, Hung kuen again.
I stayed there till logistics made it impossible to continue in 2000.
Then came BJJ/MMA and finally, over the last year or so, FMA.

Now, during that period of time there were many competitions and matches and fights and working as a bouncer and such, much like most MA, it was the testing phase if you will, there was much cross training with other like minded individuals from different systems.

So, one of the reasons for cross training sometimes is simple logistics.

sanjuro_ronin

04-11-2008, 08:12 AM

That said, there is also another reason, a far more practical one.
Specializations.
If you wanted to learn how to pain, would you go to a painter or general contractor?
Exactly.
When I wanted to work on my kicks, TKD seemed quite logical, but not just any TKD, it had to be a practical one, and I looked and found.
When I wanted to work on infighting, that was trickier, to say the least.
WC AND MT filled the bill quite nicely, but for different parts.
Was there infighting in Boxing? in karate? of course, to the degree of WC? No.
To the uniqueness and effectiveness of MT?
No.
When I wanted to work on ground work in a MMA format, BJJ made all the sense to me.
Judo had ground work, but to the extent of BJJ? No.

When we want to to develop certain skills to their highest level it makes sense to train in those skills with those not only specialized in them, but to the highest level we can get our hands on.

Common sense.

xcakid

04-11-2008, 01:53 PM

For me it started out as complete ignorance. Then it became a matter of convenience. Now its more towards good instruction.

My dad took me to take Sil Lum 5 animal as my first foray in the MA. I got bored with it. Friends were taking Shaolin Kempo and I got sucked into that. In the meantime, dad said I should learn my national art which is Arnis. So I took that too.

As I got older I took TKD cause it was the only thing around while I was in the military. Then after the military I found another Shaolin Kempo school and decided to continue on with that. All the while still taking Arnis.

Then I started taking Ying Jow Pai cause I have had enough of the SK organization I was with and Ying Jow Pai school was near me.

Now my long fist school is quite near my home, but regardless, I think I would've travelled to this school anyways.

unkokusai

04-11-2008, 02:08 PM

Lucas

04-11-2008, 02:25 PM

Where there is a will, there is a way.

One is not always permitted the luxury of locality, nor of stability in life.

To the ancient warriors this was a matter of life. Especially when we speak of nomadic tribes of man whom were consistantly on the move.

No one is the same. Each person will have a varying degree of comprehension involved with understanding the relationships of combat.

For some there may be larger gaps than others. Some just 'get it' a lot faster than others, thus requiring dedication to one particular aspect less. Less time needed to develop a skill set in regards to specific elements of martial prowess.

MANY simply do not understand this.

SoCo KungFu

04-12-2008, 07:14 AM

I'm kind of a mix of both necessity and interest.

My first kung fu teacher taught out of a friend's dojo....

There we had San Bao Pai (northern mantis/Pai lum mix), Taiji, Okinawan Kenpo and Arnis

So...I took up Kung fu and Taiji....

Started to take interest into Arnis and so when I could I started to mix that in when I could. Not on a regular basis, maybe 3 or 4 days a month. I didn't have to pay though since I was pretty much one of the more regular students and I'd help out with things for the school when they came up.

Later I joined the military. Went to Japan. Looked around at what was available. Judo dojo was too far from the base as was this awesome gym that worked K-1 rules kickboxing. So the closest thing was Aikido. So I did that while trying to go to college. Met a guy that did some boxing when he was younger and bodybuilding. So started working with him, he'd show me stuff about weight lifting and some boxing and I helped him with his kicks and flexibility. Eventually had to cut back though. Waking up at 4 to go lift...then be at work til 5pm. Then with college 2 days a week and Aikido another 2....I just couldn't keep up burning the candle on both ends. So I had to cut the Aikido...as much as its sucked..but I need my education....

Actually there was a guy on base there that taught what he said was Sei Kahn Shaolin Kung Fu. Yeah went there about two weeks. It was really Shaolin Do. Another friend there that did SD for like 8 years went as well, he's like yeah...its the same curriculum...same story...its SD. Not knockin SD though....the reason I left is because I was training (usually the sifu would work with me himself because he knew I had a background) but one day another student came up and started trying to "correct" me. I was polite, didn't offend...though what he was saying was hogwash. I asked him how long he had been training (he was a blue belt, about half way up their rank)....he said 8 months....so that was the end...oh and that the only sparring was point...and no head shots...

Anyways...came back to America at the end of 2006. Found a Hung Gar kung fu school about an hour drive. That is far, but I met the sifu and liked what he had...so for me it was worth not getting to sleep until midnight on training nights.

Now I'm in Charleston. Too far to make it to the Hung Gar school now...like a 3 hour drive. But there is an awesome group of guys that work BJJ...and its great because I want to work my ground. So now I'm here, still really new. Just trying to survive mostly. But my defense is getting better. No more 30 second taps....I can roll about 3-5 minutes sometimes before they finally pull me. A lot has to do with my conditioning too, I think as it gets better I last longer.

Honestly I think I was lucky. I started off in a school that already had a "cross-training" mentality. Sifu crossed JJ himself and so he always was encouraging to that effect. Then going to Japan...probably one of the greatest experiences of my life.

David Jamieson

04-12-2008, 07:18 AM

sanjuro_ronin

04-14-2008, 05:00 AM

I do boxing workouts, I lift weights, I work with a swiss ball and body weight, I do rips from other peoples systems routines, I practice more than1 style of tcma and i include methods from jma and kma as well as wma in my regular routines.

There is nothing wrong with diversifying your regimen so long as you are doing it correctly and effectively and not letting one set of things impair another.

A good point David, one that has been used to (erroneously) point out the short comings of what some believe cross training can lead to.

In my case, because one can only truly speak for themselves, the systems I have trained in had similar power generation in terms of basics and all how the same view on how that shoudl "change" as one became more advanced.
Kyokushin, MT, hung kuen, all have the same basic power generation and all "lead" into softer, shorter, power as one advances.
The WC, and SPM I have been exposed share many of the qualities of the kali/escrima I have done also, but are rather unique in their power generation, BUT, I notice that the basic core power one gets from the "longer hand" styles fits nicely when you "shorten" to the short hand styles.

Chen Taiji seems to be, on the surface, a whole new type of power generation, but as you learn more and experience more you see that it is just more "advanced".
There was a reason that Oyama told many to seek out Taiji.

Mr Punch

04-14-2008, 06:24 PM

So, it seems that a lot of 'crosstraining' happens as a matter of circumstance and opportunity rather than as a planned diversification of skills and experience.

That's how it has been with me as well.Yep, me too, but only to a degree: I've always looked for sparring partners from different arts. From the year dot in aikido I looked for people to test it on from other arts: boxing, goju-ryu, a shotokan derivative, other fu, tai chi, kendo, jujutsu...

Then I started chun cos it was the best option in a place I moved to where they didn't have my (then) primary art of aikido (or at least any good stuff).

Then I moved to Japan where I also can't find any decent aikido (ironically), but I am surrounded by MA not such a long way away... and ironically I have no time, so it's still a question of what I can get to when! :( When I had the time tho, I did seek out groundfighting and boxing to sharpen up certain skills. On occasion I also try to learn TKD kicks from my TKD teacher friend... but I suck royal arse at them, never having really practised a kicking style.

Pipefighter

07-17-2014, 01:47 PM

-N-

07-17-2014, 05:58 PM

If you had a kind friend who was physically fit, but had no formal training, and he said to you, "my job is going to require i move to (fill in whatever horrible place, inner Detroit, Bronx, French quarter, etc...) and i want to be prepared. I have 6 months to prepare. What should i train?"

What would you advise he learn in that period of time to protect himself? Moves? Styles? Weight training? Sports? What would you recommend and why?

Learn to recognize and avoid/defuse hazards. Avoid is the least effort.

Develop a strong spirit that cannot be intimidated. If you can't avoid, dominate instead of giving up and dieing.

Learn how to handle a gun. Fast way to end a bad situation.

For bonus points, wear body armor.

SPJ

07-18-2014, 09:03 AM

1 running

2 short staff fighting basics

--

:)

MightyB

07-18-2014, 11:23 AM

Western Boxing.

bawang

07-20-2014, 07:46 PM

(fill in whatever horrible place, inner Detroit, Bronx, French quarter, etc...
there is no defence possible against the chocolate peoples. embrace the bbc.

GoldenBrain

07-20-2014, 09:59 PM

Join IDPA, practice tactical shooting and go to matches weekly. Kali-Arnis would be a good one stop shop for training knives, sticks, striking, locks and ground fighting. If possible I'd suggest also working on some BJJ to enhance the ground game with the focus on getting back up and or ending things on the ground very quickly. Work on multi-man scenarios as much as possible.

Better yet, don't move to a ****hole ;)

Pipefighter

07-21-2014, 12:15 PM

Better yet, don't move to a ****hole ;)

Lol
Some of us dont/didnt have that option

Regarding bjj as a good idea to use for street fighting... Yes i know that would be a hot issue, and i only want to comment on that at the moment by shedding light on the modern army combatives intent (who do use gracie bjj in their program)

Those who have been in the army recently may recall some of the timing they teach, in particular to this point "you are never more than 3 minuts away from support"
The combatives instructors that i know, work with, and have rolled with a bit explain to me that the ultimate goal of modern army combatives is to survive for 3 min. When you think about it from that perspective, gracie bjj makes a lot of sense. Ending up on the ground, locking up one guy and holding him over you as a human shield while a group of stick and rock wielding guys are trying to stomp you to death makes a lot of sense really if you can count on your homies with superior weapons rolling in asap.

But in the streets you really cant expect that anyone is going to help you. Loot your corpse, dress up your corpse, or do strange things... Have all happened in some of my old neighborhoods.

Mighty b, i'm curious on western Bixing? Not arguing, just curious about your specific reasoning?

GoldenBrain

07-21-2014, 12:57 PM

Lol
Some of us dont/didnt have that option

I'm sure you realize that I said that with tongue in cheek. When not joking around I would say "if possible."

I agree with what you said about BJJ. I only mention it because it's a good ground grappling system and kind of a fad right now. Studying it gives at the very least a perspective of what is most likely going to be attempted on you while on the ground. Still, I'd go with Kali-Arnis first. It has a good grappling system that deals with using/disarming weapons, especially knives. BJJ just doesn't touch on that stuff. I've never practiced rolling in BJJ with blades, but I have in Kali training.

MightyB

07-21-2014, 01:41 PM

Mighty b, i'm curious on western Bixing? Not arguing, just curious about your specific reasoning?

IMO, it's the only MA that you can become reasonably proficient to be able to defend yourself with a 6 month time limit (as long as you have a decent base and can defend against a simple takedown). Boxing gives you good footwork, great hands, and you learn to protect your head. If the idea is to stay on your feet while staying mobile, defending when necessary, and getting the f*** out as soon as you can, then IMO boxing will be the best for you.

MightyB

07-22-2014, 05:33 AM

Gino Sifu posted this on facebook, but it goes along with my suggestion of why western boxing would be the best thing you could learn to defend yourself in that six-month window. Listen to the whole thing but especially to what he says starting at the 4:50 mark of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwF30Szln-A#t=291

sanjuro_ronin

07-22-2014, 05:46 AM

I agree, if you want to be able to defend yourself in the quickest time possible, western boxing is the way to go.
You learn to move, to defend to hit and you experience being hit, all sooner rather than later.
The edge it has over something like kickboxing or muay Thai is the because it focuses only on the hands, the issue of coordination is less than with kickboxing.

Years ago I did the experiment of putting 2 people with NO MA experience doing two different MA.
1 went into boxing and the other into TKD, 3 days a week.
After 3 months the boxer could actually fight and he punched well and moved well enough and defend well.
The TKD guy was still working on his kicks and couldn't really punch very good ( But still better then before of course).

The point being that for quick development of fighting skills boxing is far better suited than most MA because:
It is hands on right away.
You are hitting and sparring right away.
You actually hit something every training session.
You are focusing only on a few techniques and using gross motor skills.
You are not wasting time on indirect training drills.

sanjuro_ronin

07-22-2014, 05:52 AM

MightyB

07-22-2014, 06:15 AM

sanjuro_ronin

07-22-2014, 06:19 AM

Well said - this is a great explanation and it's exactly what I was thinking when I suggested western boxing.

Thanks.
See, boxing is a prime example ( and MT too of course) of how that old view in TMA, of not putting students sparring and hitting right away because it may "compromise their skill" is BS.
You learn by DOING and the close what you do is to what you MUST do, the better.
In short, you learn to fight well by fighting as soon and as often as you can because you develop the skills in the right way under the right circumstances.

MightyB

07-22-2014, 06:29 AM

Thanks.
See, boxing is a prime example ( and MT too of course) of how that old view in TMA, of not putting students sparring and hitting right away because it may "compromise their skill" is BS.
You learn by DOING and the close what you do is to what you MUST do, the better.
In short, you learn to fight well by fighting as soon and as often as you can because you develop the skills in the right way under the right circumstances.

Yup - drilling, fighting, sparring should be common in any school of good repute. That allows a person to find "their" way. That's one thing I really liked about Judo and Jiu Jitsu. You'd learn the text book way, everyone had to, but the instructors encouraged you to find your own way for practical application.

Pipefighter

07-23-2014, 04:24 PM

I'm sure you realize that I said that with tongue in cheek. When not joking around I would say "if possible."

I agree with what you said about BJJ. I only mention it because it's a good ground grappling system and kind of a fad right now. Studying it gives at the very least a perspective of what is most likely going to be attempted on you while on the ground. Still, I'd go with Kali-Arnis first. It has a good grappling system that deals with using/disarming weapons, especially knives. BJJ just doesn't touch on that stuff. I've never practiced rolling in BJJ with blades, but I have in Kali training.

YeAh i did catch the levity. I have never done ground grappling with training knives either, nor found a local dog brothers shop to try it. I would personally take escrima to bjj training for the streets, even though escrima takes longer to be good at than bjj, and bjj is quckly learned and applied.

Regarding the western boxing thing, i gotcha about quick development of skills that can be used at the speed of a fight. But what about tailoring some specific parts of CMA's to build a guy up to defend himself in that period of time? I think boxing is a better alternative to MT or TKD since my experience with kicks is that they arent very useful in real street fights.
That said, when my brother was stationed in VIrginia, he went for a walk one night and got jumped by three guys. The guy in the middle did what typically occours in muggings or assaults, he bum rushed with a tackle. My lil bro was a young state champ wrestler, kicked out of army combatives tourney's for being to violent, and trained in arnis and was carrying a knife. He didnt have time to grab his knife, he didnt sprawl, he snap kicked the guy in the chest as he lunged in for a double leg tackle. That ended the situation as his friends tried to resuscitate. So i know every once and a while kicking can work on a fight. It just never has for me, or on me in the street.

But! On Kung Fu Forums, western boxing is really the best suggestion? JKD does sparring from day one, and so does Shuai Chiao. One answer boxing does not have is structure. Most street situations i have ever experienced involve tackles, either initially, or gradually. I dont think boxing can develop full body structure that can withstand a shoulder check, or a jumping opponent. Can't CMA's be taught in a way that a person who starts training will be able to defend themselves within 6 months and then progress from there into gradual mastery?
And is punching a better defense than developing mobile structure over the same short timeline? How many punches can you whip out when a guy is charging you? 2 before he is wrapped around you?

Dragonzbane76

07-23-2014, 06:15 PM

See, boxing is a prime example ( and MT too of course) of how that old view in TMA, of not putting students sparring and hitting right away because it may "compromise their skill" is BS.
You learn by DOING and the close what you do is to what you MUST do, the better.
In short, you learn to fight well by fighting as soon and as often as you can because you develop the skills in the right way under the right circumstances.

Damit SR, again with the truth......good sir you overstep your bounds. :)

Dragonzbane76

07-23-2014, 06:18 PM

I think any MA that incorporates a blend of clinch, ground, and striking used in a resistant environment would be good. people on here (some) seem to think MMA the bane of existence in the MA's world, when in honesty you get right up front results that can be applied with little teaching and to great effect.

Kellen Bassette

07-23-2014, 06:20 PM

Can't CMA's be taught in a way that a person who starts training will be able to defend themselves within 6 months and then progress from there into gradual mastery?

Of course they can. I don't understand why people are so opposed to it.

Pipefighter

07-23-2014, 07:39 PM

After studying JkD for a while i thought that was the ultimate way to bring an average guy to a competent street fighter level quickly. Learning a base of MT, American kickboxing, western boxing, a couple throws, some ground finishes. In 6 months of that i've seen your average guy become a good counter punching, perrying, dancing fighter. But looking back i realize that i already had a solid structure when i started. I find now that structure is lacking in the early stages of JKD. If i wanted to rush past other fighters with under 2 yrs of training it was very easy to bring them off their feet. They didnt have good body structure.

I think especially for the street application, body structure is essential. Being able to whether the storm of blows for the first 30 seconds is really important, and JKD tries to address that, and does with striking and blocking. Shuai chiao has a very different approach. What if you dont spend time on striking in your first 6 months, but spend all your time on taking a striking situation and turnng it into a shuai chiao situation?

Check out the Rhino strategy on this page
https://www.facebook.com/CombatShuaiChiao

That is a beginner level drill. If a guy worked on protecting his head like this, and worked on trips and off balancing for 6 mo's as a part of practice, and sparred using this strategy, i think he would have a stronger base and feel comfortable about closing range when it suited him and ending the striking game, than compared to training in striking for 6 months. There is more to address, of course, than striking. But having a strong structure can help prevent things from going to the ground so easily.

My problem with training MMA as a street answer is in the little moments you don't think about. You learn how to find places to take a moments rest. You dont think about it in practice, but you are learning comfort zones that aren't there in a street situation. You learn body placement on the ground that doesn't take into account throat grabbing, eye gouging, ball grabbing, head butting, knife hand control. The more fluid you become at mma or western wrestling, the less you are aware of how much your leaving these targets open. The first purple belt i tapped, which was my second class of bjj was with a "rapist choke", haha. I was in his guard and grabbed him by his trachea. He was really ****ed. And he didnt tap easily. I had to use my kung fu grip.:) I had no idea that was illegal. Honest. I thought it was martial, not sport.
After rolling for a couple years and then scrapping with some army guys who were going No Rules rolling, i realized i was leaving a ton of targets open that i had completely forgotten about. in my experience MMA will yield a competent fighter quickly in a fair fight, but there are a ton of holes in MMA as it relates to the street. But you will never find that out by sparring in an MMA room. You will only reinforce your opinions of your self. MMA is no more immune to that problem than bagua. I have only encountered a small handfull of MMA guys who had the body structure of a shuai chiao guy, and they are currently competing in the UFC, and some of the other pro leagues. Any average MMA guy that i have gone with had very unimpressive body structure comparatively, unless he was a college wrestler previously.

Pipefighter

07-23-2014, 08:06 PM

1 running

2 short staff fighting basics

--

:)

I think there is a lot of sense to this approach. The french soldiers who watched the indians do this named it Lacrosse.
If it were my friend i would have him train shuai chiao for aggressive maneuvers and striking response, and lacrosse to build cardio, running speed, and increase body structure and anticipate weapon movement in a fun and competitive environment.
The more i understand traditional SC moves, the more i see how they could be used while running. Incorporate a shoulder check into a single leg, hit a front cut at full stride, headlock a charging attacker. Even western wrestling at high levels doesn't create that kind of momentum.

And i'd take him to an Israeli SEMINAR for knife defense. Not an americanized krav class. Some Israeli soldiers who offer seminars. It seems really hard to develop an effective knife disarm in 6 months from all angles. The israeli's have a one motion answer to knife attacks that can be learned fast. I wouldn't get more sophisticated with a knife than that

-N-

07-23-2014, 11:18 PM

The more i understand traditional SC moves, the more i see how they could be used while running. Incorporate a shoulder check into a single leg, hit a front cut at full stride, headlock a charging attacker. Even western wrestling at high levels doesn't create that kind of momentum.

This is fundamental to kung fu.

Though a lot of people never get to this point.

Dragonzbane76

07-24-2014, 02:30 AM

Any average MMA guy that i have gone with had very unimpressive body structure comparatively, unless he was a college wrestler previously.

most have some background in another system. Of course you have your average joe, but I'm speaking of quick results. every system has holes, IMO, or they focus to much on specific things and don't look at fighting as the chaotic thing that it is. Spending enough time learning something seems to be the problem with people these days. They want the quick results and I cannot blame them, but if you want that higher level and higher understanding you have to put in the time.

Kellen Bassette

07-24-2014, 05:11 AM

Boxing has tons of holes in it for street fighting, but, like others said, it is one of the best choices to learn to fight quickly.

The fact that you don't have to learn throws, takedowns and skilled take down defense, as in grappling arts, or kicks, lets you get good at the basics very quickly. Boxing has great footwork and the best "boxing hands" out there. You will begin learn to move and hit immediately.

The original posts was about learning to defend oneself quickly, not being a complete fighter. MMA, Sanda and Muay Thai are all far more complete, but because of the different elements they incorporate, becoming proficient takes a bit longer; unless as Dragonbane said, you already have a solid base in something else.

Even Muay Thai, which can be learned quite quickly, wouldn't be as good a choice for readily learning to defend oneself, since it does take a while to be proficient at kicking techniques, if you've never trained a kicking art. Kicks will be a liability until you really develop them. If you had to choose between just striking or wrestling, to learn in a short period of time, I'd go with striking, since you may not have enough conditioning and mental toughness at that point to just eat the punch and go for the take down.

MightyB

07-24-2014, 05:32 AM

Scott R. Brown

07-24-2014, 09:14 AM

The point being that for quick development of fighting skills boxing is far better suited than most MA because:
It is hands on right away.
You are hitting and sparring right away.
You actually hit something every training session.
You are focusing only on a few techniques and using gross motor skills.
You are not wasting time on indirect training drills.

You also learn to take hits and still fight back! Real life is not like the movies, you can take a lot of punishment and still fight back effectively.

Pipefighter

07-24-2014, 12:10 PM

Even Muay Thai, which can be learned quite quickly, wouldn't be as good a choice for readily learning to defend oneself, since it does take a while to be proficient at kicking techniques, if you've never trained a kicking art. Kicks will be a liability until you really develop them. If you had to choose between just striking or wrestling, to learn in a short period of time, I'd go with striking, since you may not have enough conditioning and mental toughness at that point to just eat the punch and go for the take down.

Agreed on all points.
I do find that Shuai Chiao has an answer for a striker, even in that short a period of time, and taking someone off their feet eliminates their striking, and makes them reconsider whether it's worth attacking again. Taking time to learn how to strike doesn't answer tackles. It's been my personal experience, and from a number of L.E. Stories and reports i've heard that if you are going to get assaulted or abducted or raped, the attackers more often use tackles before strikes than begin with striking.

I agree boxing is a really quick path to practical fistfighting. In fact, going straight to sparring with your coach while he tells you what you should be doing differently is a great way to make a fist fighter. Learning from a bare knuckle boxer / pugilist is even better for that, in my opinion, if you can even find one. But that still has no answer to tackles. I don't think bjj is a good answer for tackles either. And even with my wrestling background, i wouldn't have him study wrestling at all.
But i think shuai chiao, as a traditional CMA can yield a well defended individual for the streets quickly.

Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?

MightyB

07-24-2014, 12:58 PM

Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?

just do this:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/violent-new-sport-brings-street-fighting-into-the-ring/story-fnk1w5xx-1227000553368?nk=dd70e160e1032929513d59d59a986b16

bawang

07-24-2014, 01:06 PM

Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?

you are right. a true warrior crab around town in full siping da ma stance, ready to face ten thousand enemies. then he is invulnerable to surprise ambush tackle.

Pipefighter

07-24-2014, 02:06 PM

just do this:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/violent-new-sport-brings-street-fighting-into-the-ring/story-fnk1w5xx-1227000553368?nk=dd70e160e1032929513d59d59a986b16

I'm working on it...

And who said posturing up all day bawang? But i would pay to see you crab walk down the street! I dont think anybody would mess with you. Or your mom.

Kellen Bassette

07-24-2014, 02:14 PM

Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?

No; and boxing really doesn't train against that sort of thing so I kind of doubt it would be effective against even a good football tackle.

That being said, I still pick boxing as a good choice because, on the street your most likely to see haymakers and bad tackles. Boxing is well equipped to deal with a haymaker; and I think good footwork can save you from a sloppy tackle, if your on your toes, so to speak.

Now a takedown by a good wrestler, that's completely different. Boxing won't save you from that.

Just a numbers game, if we know who we're going to be fighting, we know how and what we should be training, but since we don't and we're just looking for the best chance to defend ourselves quickly, in this scenario, I think western boxing would be the best bet.

Kellen Bassette

07-24-2014, 02:16 PM

I'm beginning to like you again... maybe I'll call off the death feud, but I won't recall the assassin trannys! BWAHAHAHA!

I didn't realize we had a death feud going, I must be getting forgetful, that's not good.

I'd hate to be walking down the street and be assaulted by an assassin tranny and not even remember why... :eek:

Pipefighter

07-26-2014, 06:01 PM

I agree, kellen, that you aren't likely to get a wrestler tackling you on the street. And most guys who are gonna jump you cant shoot a real double leg like an experienced wrestler.

---
I thought about this a while and had a discussion with my lil bro over this topic. He is a decently skilled boxer with a decent bare knuckle amature record, pre army. But this is my conclusion after talking to him:

Bad towns are like combat zones. Maybe you dont have to worry about your house being bombed, but if you are not intimidating as a person, you are probably going to run into a lot of the same stuff a soldier would prepare for in close quarters engagements. To avoid unnecessary comparing, lets say the most intimidating armies FROM THE STAND POINT OF HAND TO HAND ONLY, only Only, would be Isreal, Russia, China, and the USA, in No Particular Order!
Since the usa got into the Gracie modern army combatives thing our stats for hand 2 hand success has dropped a lot. Since 2001 most of H2H encounters with US army that involved a knife involved the US soldier being the owner of the knife, and the other guy using it on him. Before that we had a pretty good record of wins for knife involved H2H. Thanks For Nothing Gracie's!
So if you look at the rest of the list, what are they teaching their guys in basic training before they send them off? Boxing? Any of them training in boxing as the method for H2H? No.

One move common to all of their systems is the throw/trip called the front cut. The US uses it too, but honestly our technique shows a serious lack of understanding on how to apply it. Thanks again Gracies.

I imagine everyone is familiar with SAMBO or can look it up. So thats a throwing based combat form.

Krav Maga as a belted system really confuses the issue for american understanding Israeli hand to hand. Krav maga isnt the technique they use in their training, believe it or not. I can expound if asked. Israelies focus on crashing, tripping, using momentum a lot. They don't allow anyone to try and maintain striking range and box.

And the Chinese, of course, use Shuai Chiao.

If they all focus on staying on your feet against brutal attack, crashing past striking range, tripping and throwing, and none of them teach boxing as their method for H2H i think that agrees that boxing is not a great method to make a person ready for the mean streets. If you wanna fight your ex bff's at a pool party and prove you are tough, yeah, punch them out, jab jab cross hook! If you are trying to avoid mugging, murder, and abduction, i don't think boxing is the best answer.

Shuai chiao has an answer for the striker or the grappler or the wrestler. There is a lot i dont know about all the various CMA's. I figured this topic would bring some good technique or training strategy from other CMA's to light.

-N-

07-26-2014, 07:09 PM

If they all focus on staying on your feet against brutal attack, crashing past striking range, tripping and throwing, and none of them teach boxing as their method for H2H i think that agrees that boxing is not a great method to make a person ready for the mean streets. If you wanna fight your ex bff's at a pool party and prove you are tough, yeah, punch them out, jab jab cross hook! If you are trying to avoid mugging, murder, and abduction, i don't think boxing is the best answer.

I tried to give you a practical answer in the second post on this thread.

Learn to recognize and avoid/defuse hazards. Avoid is the least effort.

Develop a strong spirit that cannot be intimidated. If you can't avoid, dominate instead of giving up and dieing.

Learn how to handle a gun. Fast way to end a bad situation.

For bonus points, wear body armor.

But, as far as staying on your feet, closing and crashing through fast, then takedown, you are talking about Praying Mantis.

Pipefighter

07-27-2014, 07:56 AM

Learn to recognize and avoid/defuse hazards. Avoid is the least effort.

Develop a strong spirit that cannot be intimidated. If you can't avoid, dominate instead of giving up and dieing.

Learn how to handle a gun. Fast way to end a bad situation.

For bonus points, wear body armor.

knowing how to handle a gun is great! I am licensed to carry in 37 states. I still train in kung fu. Hard. Why? A civilian in most places cannot engage another person past about 25 feet without it being a crime. Inside of 21 feet, an officer who is trained and carrying his pistol on an easily accesible hip holster still is likely to be maimed or killed by an attacker without a gun. The gun does not eliminate martial arts training.
If you dont already have a concealed weapons licensee, trying to get one quickly, easily, or cheaply in many states is not possible, and bulletproof vests are expensive and illegal in some places. But the topic of guns in martial arts is a good discussion, i think! The concealed weapons guys bring that stuff up, but often lack understanding of M.A. If you carry concealed, you really should be good in some M.a. since drawing from a holster under your shirt or in your pocket takes longer than drawing from open carry.

The first comments about diffusing and creating warrior spirit is obtuse, and i wasnt sure if you were suggesting self help books or P.C.P. (Angel Dust).

The thread was meant for discussion, not that i am looking for one answer. I think the discussion over boxing is a good one with many valid points all around.

As far as mantis goes, i have never trained it. I could ask my teacher to explain it to me and maybe he would. But since you bring it up, in your experience what would a person be skilled with in the first 6 months of training in the Mantis system you train? This sounds like good discussion also

MightyB

07-28-2014, 06:50 AM

MightyB, your sneaky with your after the discussion post editing...

whatch'u talkin' 'bout? You high? Says on a post if it's been edited - and I'll usually put in an explanation. I usually edit if I'm being unusually rude, clarity issues (usually grammatical), or an obvious usage error like using "it's" instead of "its" :p

Combat SC would be a good art... good luck finding a legitimate instructor. Arts like Boxing and Judo are readily available in most cities. And we're talking about a time crunch with a 6-month window... The best military h2h in the US seems to be MCMAP. But, all that doesn't matter - Attitude is what determines survival.

-N-

07-29-2014, 05:02 PM

The first comments about diffusing and creating warrior spirit is obtuse, and i wasnt sure if you were suggesting self help books or P.C.P. (Angel Dust).

Different people will respond to different approaches. If they can get it from a book, then fine. But I wouldn't get my hopes up. If you have concerns about carrying a weapon legally, then you probably won't have PCP on your list.

I was thinking more in terms of hard abusive physical and mental training for helping the student develop a strong spirit. Sometimes that can help people learn what they have inside themselves.

As far as mantis goes, i have never trained it. I could ask my teacher to explain it to me and maybe he would. But since you bring it up, in your experience what would a person be skilled with in the first 6 months of training in the Mantis system you train? This sounds like good discussion also

Yes, your teacher should be able to explain the Praying Mantis approach.

Traditionally though, Praying Mantis was not a system for a complete beginner.

Ability after 6 months, or any other length of time, depends on the individual, what they bring, and what they put in.

I could see someone starting from zero and getting basic kicks, strikes, and conditioning in 6 months.

That may or may not enable a person to protect themselves. That may just give the person enough so that he gets himself into trouble.

What does it mean to protect himself? What is he protecting himself from?

If we are talking about not dying, then avoid and escape. If that's not possible, then shoot the guy with your gun. If your life is in danger, I don't think you will care about whether or not you have a valid permit.

If you think in TCMA terms of guts, then strength, then skill, why spend 6 months working on skill?

A .45 hollow point is stronger and faster than any kung fu. Then do you have the guts to use it?