Succint definition needed

[Serpent]

Can any of you fine people give me a good, succint definition of the term Wu De (Mo Duk)? I understand the concepts, of course, but I need a good written description that gets to the core of it all. Can anyone help me out? Any good websites perhaps that I could read and paraphrase? Thanks in advance.

[diego]

**** with my little buddys and il stomp you...
2tha point succinct!!!!,now for a scholarly reply
(any1)

[Serpent]

Haha - thanks Diego. Now perhaps for a slightly less succinct version! ;)

[Serpent]

Aw, come one! This is actually MA related! Is it cos I spelt succinct wrong on the title? ;)

[guohuen]

Or martial morality.

[Serpent]

OK, I know it translates as martial virtue. I understand the basic concepts. What I need is someone that can write a few paragraphs that captures the essence and definition of the term "martial virtue", from the Chinese perspective of Wu De.

Is that clearer?

Thanks

[David Jamieson]

Serpent - Wu De is the Martial virtue or Martial ethic as practiced within any given school of martial arts at some level.

There is always a code of behaviour to be adhered to in order to receive the transmission of the art in good faith from the teacher to the student.

The code of the samurai is one example of martial virtue, the buddhist 8 fold path is another example of wu de applied around martial art.

Here is an example of a written set of Wu De that may be common in many ways to many schools.

"Martial virtue in the practice of Martial Arts is a set of common principles regarding the behavior of the practitioners of a given school, or organization that propogates and preserves Martial Arts.

When belonging to a Kwoon, Pai or school, the student commits to the Martial Art and the preservation of its knowledge in pure form.


To the best of ones ability, one will be the best representative they can of the Art, School and Pai (style/family).

One will preserve the integrity of the Art, School and Pai, by remaining true to it's transmission to them in their daily practice.

One will know all members of the Pai (style/family) are brothers in Kung Fu, irregardless of race, ethnicity, social standing or colour of their skin.

One will respect all schools and family of Martial Arts, irregardless of the level of knowledge contained in any style.

One will daily live and practice good behaviour, benevolence, fairness and mercy.

One will not steal from or cheat his fellows, younger or senior in the Art, school or Pai.

One will never use martial arts to harm others.

One will use their Martial Arts to promote harmony and good health.

One will work every day promoting healthy life style and habits to their younger Kung Fu brothers in the Pai.

One will know and adhere to the point that, political and religious ideologies mean nothing in the school, and are left to the outside world.

One will work every day so that the art will be spread as far as they can reach.

One will respect their mother and father and blood brothers and sisters and will do their best to see that no harm comes to them.

One will respect the teachings of the pai transmitted by its masters and teachers.

One will transmit respect of the teachings as transmitted to them.

One will respect all humanity and endeavour to be the best example of humanity that one can be through the practice of the art that has been transmitted to him."

peace

[Serpent]

Now you're talking! Thanks very much, Kung Lek - that's just what I was after. I can use that.

However, methinks you missed one point -

One will deliver a savage beating to any that would compromise or threaten the Pai, any member of the Pai or any loved one of that member.

Obviously, I've used my own words there and the beauty of it is that if you love all humanity, then you get to give a kicking to anyone that threatens the peace and happiness of anyone else.

Wouldn't you consider that a part of Wu De also?

[David Jamieson]

Where there is Yin, there is Yang.

BUt your addition sounds more like a "gang" thing :D

A Pai is not a gang, it is a place of learning and is open to anyone who wants to learn. They can come and go as they please, but the more they stay and practice, the more they learn, the more they learn, the more likely the code will stick with them.

Martial codes are frameworks to make decisions within.

Martial codes temper the power, and the lieklyhood that one will abuse the power that they have been given with being taught martial arts.

It makes for a well rounded individual.
Human condition and human behaviour can be governed by the self that applies a set of principles like these.

peace

[Serpent]

OK, I like that - you say it well.

But there are some people that are always going to need an a$$-kicking, right? Even if you're not a member of a Pai, but adhere to the martial code, even though you avoid confrontation and practice peace at all times, every once in a while you're going to have to lay the smack down, right? ;)

For example, when the Shaolin Temple was originally threatened, the monks went out and split some skulls. That can be applied to a group, a family, a gang or an individual, yeah?

[David Jamieson]

Well, I can't think of any references where a shaolin or the shaolin attacked anybody.

Now, they did defend a few folks and there is a legend of a certain rescue that occured wherein horses were stolen and damage was caused to aid in the rescue.

Personally, i don't follow with the idea that people "need" a beating. People need to learn how to be good to each other.

Humans have a condition whereby they tend to dehumanize others. This can be corralled with ethics, logic, practiced benevolence and just being kind in general to each other. Makes the world better in the immediate vicinity.

Kung Fu practice was promoted in shaolin as a ways and means of gaining and maintaining good health and having the ability to stop evil doing if it should occur.

Many forms of Kung Fu that grew up inside of temple walls, not just Shaolin had at it's heart that principle.

All things being relative, can you truly understand light without knowing what dark is?

peace

[Serpent]

Idealistically, I'm all for it - fully agree with everything you've said. But there are some people that for whatever reason (usually psychological dysfunction or a misguided sense of their own importance) will only understand one language. You beat them or they beat you. When a lion leads a pride and he starts to get old, younger lions will come along and try to take over. He fights them until one day he gets beaten. The pride lives on - survival of the fittest. Humans are animals too. We like to think that we're really advanced, and the concept of Wu De helps to highlight that advancement, but are we really that advanced? Look at Israel and Palestine, India and Pakistan, America and Afghanistan. If someone is threatening your safety and liberty and the only language they understand is one of might against might, then don't they "need a beating"?

Surely Wu De as a concept encompasses this and accepts it as an undeniable part of life? After all, not all people are as enlightened as we are! ;) If they were, there would be no need of martial arts and we'd all be practicing nothing more than Qigong.

There can only be light if there is dark, yin cannot exist without yang. It's all about Balance, right? In which case, there are always going to be people that will only understand a kicking - either giving one or recieving one.

What do you think?

[diego]

your enlightened hes not you should be able to out school him but its like were not talking about me so its irrelavant,kick his ass,he doesnt understand english and you dont speak idiot.

[Serpent]

That's it exactly. If you want to buy a hotdog in a foreign land, they might not sell hotdogs and they might not speak your language. No matter how well you can describe a hotdog, you ain't getting one! So you have to have whatever they got. Taste bitter, geddit! ;)

[David Jamieson]

You as a person are the greatest part of any code.

If you do not adhere, then the code ceases to exist.

Codes, generally will give the practitioner an idea of where they come to play in action, by the practitioners innate understandind of the code vis a vis the inculcation of said code during the training of the practitioner.

For instance, a policeman may catch a thief in the act, but instead of beating him, He will arrest him and send him to prison where he shall serve his bit for his crime.

The policeman is adhering to a standard code. IE: it doesn't matter what he "feels" like doing, it matters what the precepts for being a policeman are.

of course there are always going to be scenarios that demand force to be used. But a code will define the action taken.

Is it offensive action you take upon your emotions or point of view conflicting with the person who is commiting an offence against you or another? Or is it defensive action you take, that ensures harm will be lessened for all partie concerned?

If you beat someone, because what they are doing makes you mad, you are now at the level that they are and therefor no different. Perhaps you could use a beating yourself for behaving this way?

So, there is a line drawn regarding behaviour in a code, once you step over it, you distance yourself from the ethic and morals behind the reason for the code.

peace

[xiong]

I was wondering what Serpent wanted, I thought maybe a dictionary definition of the characters Wu and De.

I think that Kung Lek hit the nail on the head with his description and ANY MA worth its salt, be it JMA, KMA, etc. will try to inculcate this philosophy in it's students. This is why I personally don't care for all these "fighting" styles, I think that learning fighting without some form of training in the philosophy of the style should be the definition of an "incomplete art".

Although I do feel from time to time that some people just need a beating, I also know that it is wrong and really solves nothing. I think that that is the point of Wu De, to remind oneself of the seriousness of violence and it's context to our studies as Martial Artists.

Wong Kiew Kit and Lai Hung both have interesting ethics statements on their websites.