Range in a real fight

[Golden Arms]

Opinions please! What range do you think most fights end up happening in?? I dont care if you are speaking from pure opinion, experience, watching UFC, whatever...are you going to end up toe to toe...only long punching range, or on the ground..or what?

-Golden Arms-

[JerryLove]

I think most fights end up at grappling range (weather standing or on the ground), with a noteable exception for the "sand there and hit one another till your done with it" type fights.

This I think is the result that one person will throw themselves at the other (so the hitting stops? Out of frustration?) and preventing someone from closing is quite difficult. Also, grabbing seems to be quite instinctual when fighting out of anger.

[[Censored]]

Whichever range the more talented fighter chooses.

How many Tyson fights go to the ground?
How many Gracie fights stay upright?

The more important question is, do you train hard enough to maintain control?

[Golden Arms]

Excellent, this is exactly the kind of input I have been looking for! Keep em coming! Also, do you feel this is a major difference in a real confrontation vs. say a NHB or Tournament fight of ANY type, since in some of those circumstances, the people 2 may be reluctant to close the range. I like the part about the more talented person choosing the range as well...

[Tigerdragon]

However, it isn't nessecarily the more talented fighter. Luck and environment play a role in it as well. What if it is icy out? There is a good chance you will end up on the ground, if for no other reason then you might have slipped. What if you are on gravel? You will want to do everything possible to make sure you stay off the ground. Also you would probably not want to throw too many kicks due to gravel being loose and creating a more difficult base to keep your feet firm on. And the list of what if's goes on. I recommend training for all ranges, but "specialice" in one or 2 specific ranges. For example I train very hard for the close range (elbow, headbutt, knee range). I also train fairly hard, but not quite as hard, for punching range. After that, everything else gets the same attention

Just my thoughts

[JerryLove]

Whichever range the more talented fighter chooses.
How many Tyson fights go to the ground? Almost every one I have seen has gone to grappling range at some point. For example, when Mike bit off his opponent's ear. The don't go to the ground because neither party desires to do so. It is a well known and oft used boxisng strategy to close to grappling range to stop an onslaught. This tactic is not restricted to the more talented of the two competitors.

I also spent many years as a stick-jock in the SCA. I was one of the few people in my region who had been taught to employ a greatsword well at close range. Something I noticed in my own fights and in the fights of others was what happened with range. They guy with the long weapon got the first shot. If it did not connect, he spent the rest of the (usually short) fight running backwards. Did you ever notice how no track records are held by people who run backwards? This is because you can run forwards faster than you can run backwards.

So, what are the two ways to maintain range? Movement is one, but as I have just pointed out, unless you are looking over your shoulder with your back turned, your opponent can close faster than you can retreat. The other is to physically grab them and force your distance there; in that instance, you are grappling.

Once that contact has been established, choosing within the grappling ranges may well be the pervew of the more talented individual; and while I think the person wanting to go to the ground has an innate advantage over the person wanting to remain upright (gravity), that does not mean that advantage cannot be countered with another (size, skill, luck, etc).

[LEGEND]

CLINCHING range...for example hockey fights...most fights are unskilled...when u put someone skilled( like most martial artist ) it certainly changes the range. I have seen a skilled boxer/tkd KO a punk ass in 10 seconds with combinations...the punk ass couldn't get into range to grab and punch. I have seen bouncers and police officer effective control and grapple there opponents down. However fights between unskilled peeps are usually in the clinch range...the punch and grab at the same time.

[JerryLove]

Police, close at will.
Prison inmates, close at will.
Bouncers, close at will.
Baseball Players, close at will.
Boxers, close at will.
Wrestlers, close at will.
NHB fighters, close at will.
Same to every fight I have seen in the streets.

I am aware of no profession, no sport, no "street fight" were two un-armed opponents fight and one cannot choose to force "clinching range". The only instances I have even heard of, were of boxers or (more often) kickers who connected and dazed their opponent with blow one. Otherwise, unless both parties want to stay out, they closed. The "other guy" may have been thrown back off, but if he wanted to close, he did.

Name one event where one party wanted to close, and was unable to catch the other party for over 1 second.

[LEGEND]

Jerry...I tried to close on this girl once but her speed was too quick as she dash away from me on da dance floor...sniff..sniff...I have never felt so much pain from da beating...

[Chris McKinley]

Hey Jerry...Vivat!

I trade bruises with some of the guys from Ansteorra (OK,TX). We have the famous William the Bear here, a great sword guy who's 6'7" and about 350 lbs. He's also a career martial artist and is quick and nimble for such a huge guy. I would say he's almost better at close range with that weapon than he is at long range. The thing becomes more versatile.

I would have to more or less agree about clinching range being universal to pretty much every real street fight I've ever seen. The exceptions, as have been noted, are those instances where a clean jab, cross, or knee/leg kick connected at the outset of the fight.

[JerryLove]

Hey Chris, sorry to have been so quiet lately, been drawn six-ways from sunday. I need to come out there sometime. Who does he do sword work with?

[Mantis9]

I believe most fights end up in the clinch. This is just a theory, but most people don't want to get hit, right? Of course, so between unskilled and skilled combatant the natural inclination is to restrain the opponents limbs. Grab on and hold on tight! The difference between the unskilled and skilled combatants is that the skilled combatant know intellectually and instinctively how to proceed from there, while the unskilled does not.

Some martial art accept the clinch wholeheartedly (for example BJJ), while others to fit from half acceptence (Aikido) to full rejection. As in 7* Praying Mantis, we don't wholely accept the clinch, thinking to control the limbs of the opponent throught various means while striking. Only as a secondary response would we go to grappling.

I think its almost impossible to avoid the clinch.

[dnc101]

Jerry,

I agree- most of the fights I've seen or been in did, at some point, end up in grappling range. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that we watch and participate in a lot of sports such as boxing (tieing up, or clinching), wrestling, hockey, and of course football and baseball (which tend to end their fights in a massive heap). And of course, the guy taking a beating may see a grappling match as a good alternative. But it does not have to end up on the ground or as a push, pull, and throwing contest. Side-stepping is extremely effective if he comes at you hard. Also, if you are fluent in the use of your in close weaponry (natural or other) and you can get inside his guard, you can devastate him. If he does grab you, there are a multitude of very effective counters, many of which bring it back to a striking contest (if they don't end it outright). But I have to admit that it is a good idea to have some locking, throwing, and ground fighting in your repetoir.

[[Censored]]

Also, do you feel this is a major difference in a real confrontation vs. say a NHB or Tournament fight of ANY type, since in some of those circumstances, the people 2 may be reluctant to close the range

I think when people pay to see a fight, they pay to see a fight. Not a rout. Unskilled fighters don't make it into the ring fights, but they do comprise the majority of street fights.

How many of YOUR fights will go to the ground? Choose a percentage and train accordingly.

I see you are in Seattle. Where do you train?

[Chris McKinley]

Hey Jerry,

Sorry for the delay; I've had digital laryngitis. William the Bear trains with the Wiesenfeuer barony in OKC. He hosts the training at his house.

[Censored],

Are you the same guy who was promoting that Chung Moo Do crap about Baguazhang's origins on the internal arts forum?

[Golden Arms]

Some of my fights WILL go to the ground, I am comfortable with that, but I definately prefer to stay standing or get back on to my feet if I have my way. How about you...do you work your stances, sprawling, takedowns, clears and breaks, etc enough that you can confidently get in to it with someone that wants to go to the ground, and still stay standing or make them sorry that they got close to you in the first place? (general question)

[[Censored]]

Are you the same guy who was promoting that Chung Moo Do crap about Baguazhang's origins on the internal arts forum?

:D (http://www.oomyungdoe-nw.com/legendofbagwa.htm)

You guys are too easy.

[umgong]

Depends on who you are facing and how many...also depends on whether or not they will be using a weapon.
Hand to hand fight? Usually starts stand up and just outside of arm's length....words are exchanged, sometimes more insults, but if you want them to initiate, give them an opening....they take half step in or attempt kick to groin area (most of time) or dominate hand punch to head.
From then on, it depends on how you fight and some luck (terrain), be ready, you could end up on ground.
My style? I close in and finish the fight unless I'm assessing the crowd and watching my own back at the moment, then I keep him outside of kick range until he presents me an opening or I create an opening. Then I finish.
Why do you ask? Each person is different....also depends on your weight and your personality. If you're confident, then you can close in. If you're too excited then you could rush in then retreat. Also depends on your training....is it hit and run, take the guy down, have you practiced follow-up techniques? Is your's a hitting style? grappling style, etc..?

[wtjoe]

I think most fights end up in the grappling/short range strikes range. They usually go to the ground when 1 guy has taken control and wants to finish it.

[MA fanatic]

I'm surprised to hear Chung Moo Doe and or Chung Moo Quan mentioned on this thread. As a matter of fact, I was surprised to hear those schools are still open. In some areas they were closed down due to brain washing tactics, income tax fruad, and plain old lying to students about powers of a particular man who's name I will not mention. I believe CBS broke a story on the group over 10 years ago.

As for fighting ranges, I think one should be pretty skilled in all four (kicking, hand striking, clinching/trapping, and ground grappling). Why? Because you don't know what the hell is going to happen in a fight. NHB is not a real street fight, but the closest tournament we could have to the real thing. It is the most realistic way a martial artists can test his/her skill. Street fights are in most situations assaults, sucker punches, ambushes, and a bunch of guys ganging up on one.

MA fanatic

[LEGEND]

THE CLINH!

[JerryLove]

Depends on who you are facing and how many...also depends on whether or not they will be using a weapon. And how does one determine if his friends are in the crowd, or around the corner? How does one know if he's got a knife he's going to pull when you clinch?

I know my answer (I assume he is armed and has firends, and react accordingly), what's yours?

[umgong]

Jerry,
I have survived fights by always expecting at least one more attacker than what you see and always expect weapons. The time that I was seriously cut? I was caught by surprise with a guy drawing a hidden straight edged razor. That was in my early days.
I have been fortunate enough to survive attacks with my attackers presenting guns and knives. Usually two or more attackers.
I have also come out of fights relatively unscathed where I faced approximately twenty gang members, several times,different occasions. Mostly knives, chains, and pipes there.

I do not expect you to believe me or understand what I write because my experiences are my experiences and we both speak from our experiences, so I only wish to express my opinion based on those experiences.

There are no absolutes in "real fights." With luck, a little skill, and the Lord protecting idiots like me, I have survived my fights with only two hospital stays.

I still have not learned my lessons, even up to a day ago, some dope tried to attack me for some stupid reason, just using his fists and feet....this time I ran away....actually hobbled with a goofy gait.(arthritis) and a couple of side steps.

Peace, brother.

[MA fanatic]

Umgong,
Just for curiousity, you dont have to answer, how did you get into all those fights? 20 gang members armed, were you in a gang? are you a police officer? To face 20 gang members once is a big deal. To face them twice or more has the same probability as being hit by lightening (unless you are in a gang, work for the police, or live in a very very very gang infested neighborhood).
MA fanatic

[umgong]

MA fanatic,
That is a good question, I think partly my upbringing...I was raised to not run from a fight. (My dad and grandfather)
Movie examples of the good guy. (John Wayne, Bob Steele, etc.)
My father beat me a lot to not run from a fight...either fight until you couldn't continue or until you won or at least fought the guy to a standstill. When I got in fights where knives or guns were used, I learned to run....better part of valor.
Being raised in Hawaii.....had a lot of opportunities to fight. You could fail in a fight in those days, because most fights the guys fought fair (didn't kick you when you were down and didn't use weapons in a fair fight.)...that's for J.Love
I was a little guy so I learned the hardway what it felt to be picked on and bullied. We learned to fight as a group against the big guys.
My grandfather, even though he wouldn't teach me gung fu (Baqua), emphasized to me that if I had the means that I had to help protect the little guys. He also taught me a lot about loyalty and honor, and being a good upright citizen in the community. He was one of the bodyguards for Sun Yat Sen...a man who tried to bring democracy to China.
My first formal sensei in jiujitsu was a little guy, he taught me not to fear big attackers.
My first two formal gung-fu teachers were community leaders in Chinatown, they taught us to stand up for what is right and to help protect the community. For years, we fought against Chinese gangs who preyed on their own in and around Chinatown (San Francisco and L.A.)
When I began to teach M.A., I hung around with the good people who tried to help the community, I was asked on several occasions to stand with them against the gangs.

My first fight with a gang?
I was in high school in soCal. I had just moved here....my father moved a lot. I had made friends with a German boy...he was my only friend at the time. He actually invited me over after school to study and he made sandwiches and a glass of milk for me to eat on several occasions. I had gotten in a fight at school where a boy thought I was trying to pick up on his girlfriend. He was a football jock and he got some of his friends to try to beat me up. My German friend was also on the football team and he knocked down two of them when they tried to attack me from the back....and he didn't even know me then.
I felt I owed him and I also appreciated his friendship.

Some weeks later, he lived in a Hispanic part of town...they had just arrived from Germany before the school year and could only afford the house that they lived in, I was sitting in his living room when his sister came running in the house. She yelled that they were beating up her boyfriend and that they were going to total her car.
My friend ran out of the house and I followed (more out of curiousity) and there they were...about 20 guys and a few of their girl friends. One of the latinos started yelling to my friend that the gringos didn't belong in that neighborhood and how they should leave. They had already bloodied up the boyfriend of my friend's sister. He wasn't in any shape to fight.
My friend walked into the middle of that crowd and tried to find the perps who beat up the guy. I don't even think that he realized that he had walked into the middle of the gang. I followed, even though I figured I was going to take one big ass whoopin. I put my back against his back and told him that he didn't have to worry about his back...I was determined that no one was going to get my buddy from behind.
The gang guys all started taking off their belts and rolling them up on their fists. We walked out of that fight at the end of that fight and he had no more trouble from that gang as long as he lived there...it was a stand up fight. I think I wouldn't let myself go down because I didn't want to let my buddy down.

Another time, I received a call from a gung-fu teacher friend who asked me to back him up. A Chinese gang had threatened a high school student's life. The high school student was a student of the gung-fu teacher and had apparently fought one or two of the gang members in a stand up fight and he won, but appartently he bragged about it at school and the gang offered a formal challenge because he "disrespected them."
We showed up at the agreed upon time and place and there were about 20 of the Chinese gang members who were there to make sure there was a "fair fight." Sure, that was why there were 20 of them against the three of us and they used pipes and knives. 'Course we used nunchucks, three sectional staff, and chain whip. That ended the fight real quick.

Anyway, we could go on and on with this stuff, but those fights were in the old days when I thought I could make a difference and help improve the community by fighting against the bad element and what was wrong. I was not a cop wanta be because I saw that the community at large restricted police officers and they couldn't fight unfettered, the way the gangs threatened and attacked the community. Chalk up my experiences to being idealistic and sometimes being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Up to two years ago, my job allowed me to be on a Task Force with the police as one of the key elements of our task force. For 23 years, a lot of the police officers and the active members of the Task Force fought primarily gang crime...things have changed a lot. I felt we did a lot for the community in those 23 years but now, A lot of the gang members and wannabees have a more pure hatred for the police and any authority figure....to me, I see a lot more "stone-cold " killers or potential killers out there now then beforeand it seems more that the community doesn't support the police officers who do a thankless job for the community.

I have not hardened my heart enough to want to kill a fellow human being. So I resigned from the Task Force because it seemed that the things that we saw and experienced got worse and worse. It seemed that there was more despair and desparation, but maybe it is just that part of society.

Anyway, enough of an old man's chatter, eh?

Sorry, M.A., I hope that I provided an answer somewhere in there.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble on and take up your time, but I thought you needed to know some of the contributing factors leading up to fighting. I cannot change my feelings, but I can change how I react. So even though I see a "bully" sometimes physically picking on a "victim..." now more often than not, I pick up the cell phone and call the police.

[wolfkiller]

you had nunchakus umgong? i though nunchakus are japanese?


also, how do you prevent a clinch at trapping range?

[umgong]

Wolfkiller,
Nunchakus were of Okinawaan origin, I believe.
Actually I used a lead fishing weight on both ends of a chain about 18 inches in length..In those days, we had to make our own...couldn't afford to buy one.
Even though my main focus of study was CMA, I had originally started with a Japanese sensei in jiujitsu. Then CMA, then Chinese kempo, then JKD, then a Chinese internal style, and I dabbled in other martial arts to learn and improve my skills.

In jiujitsu, we learned to counter clinches (grabs) with nerve grabs and finger locks.
In JKD we learned to counter clinches with a strike or a stop kick.
In internal martial arts, we use accupressure nerve strikes.

[JerryLove]

Nunchakus were of Okinawaan origin, I believe. Yes, they are farming implaments (that probibly exist in many Asian countries). When the Japanese outlawed weapons for Okinawans, they started coming up with improvised weapons training including many such farming tools (nunchucks, and those little mini-sickles, and a good deal of the Karate weapons)

[guohuen]

Umgong, really good advice! Having been there myself a few unfortunate times I can tell that you have too. (multiple opponent fights). I'll repeat it for myself.
Allways assume they are armed!
Allways assume they have backup!

[JusticeZero]

You know, it seems that most untrained fighters lean forward and start swinging their fists either overhead or in hooks while continuously closing, even if closing puts them in closer than their attacks' effective range.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by umgong

There are no absolutes in "real fights." With luck, a little skill, and the Lord protecting idiots[warriors] like me, I have survived my fights with only two hospital stays.


This is the truest quote of the day.


Justice, Love your signature. :)

[Nin-Po-Dragon]

It all depends on the opponents and their way of fighting..........a boxer wont end up on the ground unless they were to come accross a grappler whos only way to defeat the boxer is to wrestle him into submission..........In a crowded bar....it is highly likely that one will stumble over and it will turn into a wrestling fight

[JWTAYLOR]

Just about every fight goes to the clinch. The only ones that don't are the ones where one guy just gets one perfect clean hit on the other and he goes down immediately.

Even professional strikers regularly clinch. Every boxing match has examples of clinching in every round.

Most grapplers end up clinching at some point (a takedown isn't a clinch).

It's just a natural thing for people to grab.

JWT