Double weightedness

[Mr. Nemo]

In my ongoing series of threads created in an attempt to clarify and explain the language commonly used to describe things in kung fu, I've been through "chi" and "jin(g)".

Next up is the concept of "double weightedness", a frusturating term not because of obtuseness (like chi) but because everyone seems to have a different definition of it. I will go through the most common definitions I've seen here. These are:

The "Sam Wiley" definition: Named so not because it is unique to Sam Wiley but because he writes the longest posts in which this definition is used - according him, "double weightedness" occurs when both of your feet have an equal amount of weight on them - for example 50% on your right foot and 50% on your left. By this definition, its preferable to have more weight on one foot than on another.

The all-or-nothing definition: This one says that -any- weight on more than one foot is bad technique - that it, 100% of your weight should be on one foot, and 0% on the other. I've heard mantis stylists use this definition.

The Sun Lu-Tang definition: Inspired by the anecdote of Sun Lu-Tang being able to place his right shoulder and right foot flush with a wall, and lift his left foot off the ground and hold it there. Impossible for the rest of us, Sun Lu-Tang said he could do this because his body only had one center of gravity, not several. The most confusing of all the definitions, in my opinion.

The Jason Tsou definition: Jason Tsou is my sifu, and he defines double-weightedness as quite simply being off balance. In this definition, the upper body can contribute to double-weightedness as well as the feet - for example, if you are punching forward, you must have a "balancing force" going backwards, otherwise you will be off balance and vulnerable.

Do any of these look familiar to you? Is your definition one of these? If you have a new definition, please let us know what it is. Which one is right, do you think, or are they just different concepts entirely despite being known by the same name?

[David Jamieson]

double weightedness by my understanding is wherein yin and yang are in harmony throughout the entire body and deep root is achieved.

peace

[taijiquan_student]

Basically double weightedness refers to 50-50 weight distribution. It is also when, say, you are on your right root and strike with your right hand, instead of the usual opposite hand-foot method.

[count]

While I think you mis-interperate the Sam Wiley version, I would still go with the Jason Tsou version. It is correct;) When you are off balance and leaning your weight can be used against you. That's all double weightedness really is. See you in class:D

BTW kung Lek, having yin and yang in harmony is what you are trying to achieve in Tai Chi Chuan. Double weightedness is definately against the classics.;)

[bamboo_ leaf]

TC is the center point; the practice is one that defines the interplay of yin and yang in dynamic balance.

Double weight can also refer to the mind, or a single part of the body.

Each part of the body has components of yin and yang and must be ready to change. haveing only one component it can not change quickly. like a pendulm caught on one side.

Being double weighted in the mind is thinking only of going forward, forgetting going back. Or getting stuck when pushing not maintaining balance between incoming force and your self.

Not having these components leads to the use of force or inability to receive force.

The classics say move like a balanced scale, this is also in reference to double weight.
It means if one part moves forward, up, down, left or right the other part must move in the equal and opposite direction to balance the movement.

In push hands places that are not balanced can be used as control points, each contains its own center. they don't change or change to slow.

Most people start out with the idea of 50/50 wt distribution but really it is much more then this. Even this idea has many variations depending on the level and out look of the person. :)

[Sam Wiley]

The "Sam Wiley" definition. Interesting.:) Actually, it's Erle Montaigue's.

That's not the whole of it, but it is it on a basic level. To clarify a bit, double weightedness would be where you have equal "weighting" in opposite parts of the body. For instance, if both hands are flexed in the same shape, or strike at the same time, that would be double weightedness as well. To illustrate using the posture named Push, which comes at the end of each third of the Yang style Taiji form: after the sit back, you roll both hands over and push forward with the right hand flexing yang first, then the left hand flexes yang and strikes as the right hand changes to yin; both hands drill into the strike when you squeeze the elbows in. The theory can be applied to every movement, every strike, every stance, etc. As far as weighting goes in the feet, there will be a time when you momentarily reach 50% on each foot, but it is only a transitional stage in the movement and not dwelled upon.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.:)

[Braden]

I think it's more of something you can only know introspectively, and it's problematic to generalize it to a specific external manifestation.

There certainly seems to be something important about coordinating opposite movement ('push to pull'), about a flow of intent from one hand to the other, about posting on one leg, about bringing that path up to one peripheral, about coordinating both sides not quite simultaneously, and about manifesting these things interactively. However, how this looks externally is difficult to put your finger on, especially in bagua when postures can get quite coiled.

That said... 100-0 weight rocks. :)

[count]

Nicely worded Bamboo, and I knew you couldn't stay gone long.;)

And good description of real application Sam...

Only these speaks of how you should issue/absorb power. Don't the Tai Chi classics state you should not be double weighted?

In the bagua classics it speaks of issuing power "like an arrow in a bow". Equal and balancing power and intent. I think this is what you guys are getting at too. But if all the power is in front with nothing pulling back there would be no power. That would be double weighted and you would fall forward. I know you can get stuck in a 50-50 posture if you stop, but I don't think that is what being double weighted is. And yes Braden, it can get rather twisted can't it?;)

[Sam Wiley]

Something that I didn't catch before...

Sun Lu-Tang's response when asked how he could put one shoulder and foot against the wall and lift the opposite foot, was that he did not have a center of balance, that his whole body was his center.

Some of the writings passed down in the Yang family state many times that double weighting is wrong. I don't know about other styles or how they define it. I'd like to know where double weighting being the same as harmony came from.

[Water Dragon]

If we are fighting, we each have a center (a weight) If we fight against each other, we are double weighted. Both centers are fighting against each other. If I initially yield to your power and stick to you, we now have one center (weight) When this happens, it is easy for me to control you.

[Fu-Pow]

Here's a couple different ideas on the subject.

From "Chen Style Taiji Quan: The Source of Taiji Boxing" by Davidine Sim and David Gaffney:

" Chen Xin says in his Taijiquan treatises: " If you are single-weighted you can be responsive. If you are double weighted, you are stagnant." In the practice of push hands, these two sentences are very important. "Double weighted" does not mean having equal weight on both legs. If it were that simple, as Chen Xiaowang says, then one needs only to shift more weight to one side to correct it. "Double weighted" means that the Taiji yin-yang is not correct and there a stagnation of qi in a static posture. In push hands, one's movement is stifled by an opponent and there is no scope for change. A practitioner can only have a superficial understanding of Taijiquan if he/she does not understand this concept. "

From "Advanced Yang Style Taiji Quan" by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming:

"The Chinese character "Jong" can be translated as weight and "Shuang" as pair or double. Therefore some authors translated "Shuang Jong" as double weighting. However, the same character "Jong" can also be pronounced "Chung" and translated as "repeated overlapping". Therefore, "Shuang Chung" can be translated as "double overlapping." This means "mutual covering and resisting" and has the sense of two forces struggling against each other, each striving for the upper hand. If you study many years, but never grasp the concept of this "mutual resistance", then you will never learn the knack of neutralizing the opponents force."

From Feng Zhiquiang's Seminar June 2002:

"Weight on one side is better than double weighted. Even when you are standing upright, your weight should only be on one leg. When you're standing you should be relaxed and your weight should only be on one leg. When you're standing you should be relaxed and have your weight shifting from one leg to the other, never 50-50. But not too obvious, that looks funny. Don't let it be visible to the observer, but you should shift your weight from one leg to the other. "


So hopefully you can see amongst highly respected teachers there is some agreement. Double weighting is not only having your weight divided 50-50, or being caught "flat on your feet", that is definitely part of it. But it is also using muscular force to resist your opponent instead of blending with them and leading them.

[Sam Wiley]

Erle Montaigue said something similar to Feng's statement in regards to Baguazhang. He said we should be like a "wandering dragon," constantly moving, though the movements are not perceptible, that the weight should constantly changing from one point to another, constantly moving so we can change when the need arises. It's wierd watching Erle stand and talk, as he never actually stands still.

I especially like Tim Cartmell's definition. I have his book on effortless throws, and his stuff is great. His definition kind of extends past the self and applies the theory to the us as we interact with each other. That's pretty cool.

[count]

Fu Pow, go back and read Mr. Nemo's interpretation of the Jason Tsou definition. Not only does it make it obvious but it is in simple terms to understand. It is perfectly alright to be 50-50 weight distribution. Double weighted IS when both hands and intent are going forward and you do not balance backward with the leg and intent you can easily be pushed or pulled off balance. Bamboo leaf put it in simple terms too. READ: the interplay of yin and yang in dynamic balance.

Being double weighted in the mind is thinking only of going forward, forgetting going back. Or getting stuck when pushing not maintaining balance between incoming force and your self.
Nicely said bamboo;)

[Fu-Pow]

Count-

Let me plainly state that I disagree with you. I think a 50-50 stance does have something to do with it. I have already illustrated my case. No disrespect to Mr. Nemo or his teacher but I've never heard of Sifu Jason Tsou.

Peace

[MonkeySlap Too]

I thought that was my definition. Well, at least the one I learned. And frankly, Cartmell explains it really well in his book 'effortless combat throws'. A well done effort, that book.

But the concept of two centers engaged is fundamental to the shuai chiao I practice. I recently discovered that some schools of sambo use this same theory - which is logical as it shares common roots.

[KC Elbows]

The only definition I was familiar with was in reference to having the weight be distributed to the feet 50-50, the problem being that motion is slowed in either direction since you have to "empty" the foot that needs to move. If there is weight on a foot, then the hip must be over that foot to some extent, and to empty that foot, the waist must move. The more weight, the more the waist must shift, the more needs be done before the foot can actually move, the less mobility.

However, the other definitions on this thread are completely new to me. I'll have to think about them for a while.

[Water Dragon]

MS2, AKA Brutal Ba$tard,
I actually learned that definition fromt my Taiji teachers as well. It sounds like it's more common than I thought. Still, Cartmell's the first I've seen who's put it in print. If others want to check it out, that's probably the place to go.

[Kumkuat]

but in your post, Fu-pow, Chen Xiao Wang said it's not having equal weight on both legs. I thought double weighted means you're in a position where you can't do peng lu ji an.

[Fu-Pow]

"Double weighted" does not mean having equal weight on both legs. If it were that simple, as Chen Xiaowang says, then one needs only to shift more weight to one side to correct it.


True, but based on Feng Zhiqiang's comment I believe it still has something to do with it. It is just that having equal weight on both feet is not the whole picture.

[No_Know]

"From "Advanced Yang Style Taiji Quan" by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming:

"The Chinese character "Jong" can be translated as weight and "Shuang" as pair or double. Therefore some authors translated "Shuang Jong" as double weighting. However, the same character "Jong" can also be pronounced "Chung" and translated as "repeated overlapping". Therefore, "Shuang Chung" can be translated as "double overlapping." This means "mutual covering and resisting" and has the sense of two forces struggling against each other, each striving for the upper hand. If you study many years, but never grasp the concept of this "mutual resistance", then you will never learn the knack of neutralizing the opponents force." "

"However, the same character "Jong" can also be pronounced "Chung" and translated as "repeated overlapping". Therefore, "Shuang Chung" can be translated as "double overlapping." This means "mutual covering and resisting" and has the sense of two forces struggling against each other, each striving for the upper hand. "

It does Not Mean that. It can Possiblly, but you are leading, to say that that is how it has to be-ish. It's a possibility, based on a perception, driven by a preference.

Double-weightedness seems to refer to being in a position where the initial place of wieghtshifting is away from one side controlled.

Fifty fifty is the most balanced of double weighted. Sixty forty would also be double weighted (double weighted not being half the weight and the other half, but double being two as in weight in two places or weighted twice-ish). The weight shifting to the sixty is better than the weight shifting to the forty because it should take shorter.

Actually what in initially stereotypically external classified Kung-Fu is sometimes referred to as percentages, 60-40 70-30...in T'ai Chi Ch'uan the feet might hold similar positions and the legs too, but the actual weight is even more-so on one leg than the other than it appears. And if at the end/beginning of most (if not every move~/technique) you can't balancedly pick-up one of the legs, then you are double-weighted. Some-such perhaps might-be.

I No_Know

Double weightedness seems to occure, after the beginning and before the end of a technique.

The techniques tend to muchly work better with the shifting of the weight. This seems to tend to require both feet and as there's shifting, double weightedness. But for moving--direction change, the greater absence of double weightedness the better.


This might be empiness/fullness and not staying at either.~