Erle Montaigue's Iron Shirt? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Sam Wiley

01-22-2002, 10:24 AM

If you must know, he learned iron shirt qigong in 1985 in China from a man named Chang. I believe it was while he was there for the tournament. At the time, Chang was 85, and demonstrated his iron shirt by having two men run at him and ram him with a tree trunk.

This may sound a little callous, but I have gotten tired of discussing Erle's lineage now. It doesn't matter how ardently I defend it, or how much I try to prove that what he says is true, because most people are not going to believe it anyway. I realize that your question was probably an honest inquiry, but that's the way things are. So when the discussion of lineage comes up, I usually back off or say, "I don't know, why don't you ask Erle?" I'd much rather discuss more productive things.

taijiquan_student

01-22-2002, 12:53 PM

Was that Chang Yiu-Chun, his taiji teacher?

Sam Wiley

01-22-2002, 03:50 PM

No, this is another Chang. Erle said he doesn't know the rest of the guy's name, but that he had started his own style called Chang style.

Ima Pseudonym

01-22-2002, 04:00 PM

not truly relevant to this discussion i guess, but i just read this weekend that Chang is the most common surname in the world. easily beats out Smith and all the other common names you can think of ;).

anyways, just sharing what i though was interesting...

D

taijiquan_student

01-22-2002, 04:58 PM

Hi Sam. I've heard of a Chang style before, just not sure if it was taiji or not.

It would be weird to not know your teachers name.

Sam Wiley

01-22-2002, 06:20 PM

As I stated above, and seem to have been demonstrated quite well by a poster who doesn't even practice Taijiquan according to his profile, whatever I say to support his claims will be refuted with some assinine comment or another.

taijiquan_student,
I could be wrong, but the way Erle responded, I took it to be the Chang style Taiji guy. Erle said that Chang was quite good. I have never seen the style myself, I have only read a bit about it here and there, but nothing that really tells me anything about the style. It might be wierd indeed to not know a teacher's name. But I have had teachers from school whose first names I did not know, either. I always called them Mr. or Mrs. To this day, I have people who I went to school with who I barely remember greet me in public and recount the days when we hung out, and for the life of me I can't remember their names. I know the first names of the man who lives next door to me and the couple who live across the street, but none of their last names, and I have known them for a while. I can remember half of the names of people whose pools I have worked on and yet cannot give you directions to their house, and the other half I can remember directions to their house but I can't tell you their names. What I can tell you is the name AND address of every customer who had a nest of Black Widows in some place I had to stick my hands this past year. Nothing like opening a skimmer or pool house to find an angry little Black Widow staring you in the face...or to leave a house and arrive at your next stop and find one crawling up your shoulder! I also remember the names and addresses of customers where I found scorpions or copperheads. I guess it all depends on what you are focused on.

Ray Pina

01-24-2002, 07:41 AM

I could understand being tired of the lineage question. My sifu turned someone down after being asked about it too much. He said, "Do you want to learn from my teacher, or do you want to learn from me."

In one sense I could understand the kids question, because as a martial artists you're always told, check the lineage. BUT, this kid wouldn't have known these people anyway, just like I wouldn't have.

What drove me to my teacher was his reputation -- I simply heard he was the best in NYC. I went with an open, but yet inquisitive mind; I was happy with my teacher at the time.

It took maybe 10 to 15 minutes to see this man's aproach was light years ahead of anything I've ever seen; very realistic, no bs, honest. The thing is, his lineage just happens to be impeccable. But even if it wasn't, it's his knowledge that is valuable, where he got it, well, I respect those men, but I don't know them. I do know my teacher is a rare gem.

Poor kid should have just kept his mouth shut and his ears open.

Sam Wiley

01-24-2002, 07:46 AM

Exactly.:)

GLW

01-24-2002, 05:20 PM

A prospective student asking about lineage is something that I agree with you on. If you watch a person's class, see them move, see their students, talk with the students, talk with the teacher, etc.... as a prospective student, you do not need to ask lineage questions.

Asking "Who's your teacher?" in that setting is rude unless done as a natural extension of a conversation where the topic just flowed there.

On the other hand, if you are learning from a teacher for more than just a short while - like to the level of being an assistant or instructor, and you do not have the lineage thing down pretty solid, it is NOT your teacher's fault (unless they did NOT answer the question) but rather the student's fault.

I have never met a teacher yet who was not willing and even happy to tell the history of what they teach back as far as they can to a student who exhibitted true interest in the answer and story.

Sam Wiley

01-24-2002, 06:01 PM

I agree, GLW. I have never bothered to ask Erle some things because my conversations and correspondence never go there. Lineage is one of those things. My questions to him tend to lean toward technical things, applications, healing, etc. The whole time I have known him, I have only asked about lineage 3 times. It's just not one of those things that comes up often. And it's not one of those things I am really concerned about anymore. But I guess it's something that stays on a lot of people's minds. I have had people call me and ask me about what I teach or practice before who questioned incessantly about lineage and yet knew nothing about Taiji or any of the past masters. It just doesn't do them any good to know who taught whom if they don't know who any of those people are in the first place. I don't tell them that, but it's true. I just tell them what they want to know. Those who have boned up on Taiji or Bagua history, on the other hand, might have decided on learning a particular master's style and are looking for someone in that lineage, and I have the info they need. I've just never been asked from whom Erle learned a qigong exercise before. If I don't know, it's my fault for not asking. But sometimes, I am a bit of a solipsist, in that I for some reason assume that people know or practice the same things I do, and sometimes I assume that what Erle teaches is more common than it is. I forget that there are some things that he teaches that many people have never seen or heard of before.

red_fists

01-24-2002, 06:08 PM

Hi Sam.

Similar to my style.

I know my Instructor, other Instructors and the Head of the style.

Apart from that I know which styles he studied and where.

But since he formed his own system, who he studied under has become meaningless as he is not teaching his former Instructors System.

He will happily tell me if I ask him.

Yes, lineage is kinda important, but in no way a guarantee that your Istructor is good.
Peace.

Sam Wiley

01-24-2002, 06:11 PM

GLW,
I have been working a lot on my sword form, and was wondering if there was anywhere I could download video footage of competitions with good swordsmen, or if you could e-mail footage to me or something. What you said about the tassels has been on my mind for a while now. I have some footage of jian forms from a tournament, but the practitioners are not the best. Or maybe, if you could email me some complete guidelines as to how the tassels are supposed to react during the techniques, that would be great, too. What you posted a while back was good, but didn't cover everything.

Thanx.

GreyMystik

01-24-2002, 07:44 PM

hey Sam, if it's the same Chang i'm thinking it may be, you may be referring to Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng , the famous Shuai Chiao player from china. he created Chang style taiji, and was said to be undefeated in all matches (and he had quite a few challengers).

if anyone wants some background on this man, try this site:

http://www.changshuaichiao.com/chang_tung_sheng.htm

Fu-Pow

01-25-2002, 12:01 PM

Well here's my two cents.

When I first visited my Taiji class one the first things I asked was what my teachers lineage was. He told me some names and I had no idea who he was talking about.

I participated in a class and thought it seemed pretty good. However, having no Taiji experience I wasn't sure. I was very skeptical for a long time, especially because my teacher is this scrawny white guy with a pony tail.

As I started reading more and more I discovered that my teacher has an impecable lineage. His teacher is none other than Feng Zhiquiang.

So basically I had training with no real concept of the lineage. But my teacher new exactly who his teacher was and he had told me no questions asked.

I'd be a bit skeptical of anybody that claims that they don't know who their teacher was. The Sifu/Student relationship is the most important one in your training. You would definitely know your Sifu's name and if you had spent any significant amount of time with him then you'd know when his birthday is, where he lives, his family, etc, etc, etc.

I'm just not gonna buy this crap of I learned from some monk in China. China is a real place with real people, real names, real families and real documents.

Zantesuken

01-26-2002, 10:35 PM

man Sam Wiley. Your Erle didn't know the sound comes from tassle! I emailed him asking for vcds or videos but he hasn't responded yet :p. I don't know how I'm gonna payf or it either cause he's in Australia and I don't gotta card.

Hrm well before i pass final judgement on whether he really is unfit or not I gotta take a look at some of his tai chi vids. His fa-jing is okay but you can't tellf rom a video but his broadsword form was meh. So i guess i'm not flamin him for now but instead would you have any vcds on you?

and if you're looking for sword vids goto www.furiousg.com he has mostly wushu sword vids but there's a tai chi section of the beijing team practise. dnot remember if there's sword but there's a huge library of stuff

Sam Wiley

01-27-2002, 12:12 AM

Zantesuken,
I'm sure that it is possible to make a sound with the tassels, however, mine have never made a sound. Or maybe they have, and the sound of my blade whipping through the air covered it up. In all seriousness, the Old Yang sword and dagger form does not focus too much on tassel usage. We focus instead on the sword and the dagger. I asked GLW about the tassels because he mentioned a while back about using the motion of the tassels as an indicator of having proper or improper expression of jing, and I want to get it absolutely right. The Jian requires finesse and skill, as opposed to brute force, and that is one of the reasons I want to master it, because it presents a challenge.

I'm not one of his video dealers, I'm just one of his students. I'm afraid that if you want some of his videos or VCDs, you'll have to buy them. And in any case, if you can't tell anything from a video, then what do you want to see them for?

Thank you for the link. I have several mpg's already of some of those same people. They look good for the most part, but there are a few mistakes I can see. I just want to make sure that there are no mistakes I cannot see before I start comparing to them.

fiercest tiger

01-27-2002, 01:08 AM

have you bought any of erles earlier tapes before he brought out his dim mak?

if so, do you notice the diffrences in techniques and applications?

did he learn dim mak from?

im curious to know where he learnt and when he learnt it?

thanks mate
FT

Sam Wiley

01-27-2002, 09:09 AM

I've seen some of the earlier ones, but not all of them. There is a great difference in the way he did fa-jing then and the way he does it now. His movements are smoother, more refined, too.

Erle teaches basic techniques and advanced techniques. But even his basic techniques have a bit of dim-mak in them. I don't know about the tape on the same subject, but in his book on how to use Taiji for fighting, he describes target areas for a couple of techniques with dim-mak points. Actually, he specifically says "the acupuncture (Dim-Mak) points under your left arm" at one point, describing where your partner's punch should be aimed. And this is a book on only basic techniques. The book was published around '85. He usually does videos on the same subject as books at the same time that he does the books.

Anyway, many of the "basic" techniques are the exact same techniques as his dim-mak strikes, he just doesn't mention the points. For instance, the application for the opening move of the form, he describes as a pull down by the shoulders, and the dim-mak strike is to GB21, which is on top of the shoulders. Striking it downward will pull him downward. He lists the strike point for P'eng as the mind point, which is the same point he uses today to describe the target for the Small San Shou form's P'eng motion.

He learned dim-mak from his teacher Chang Yiu-chun in the early 80's when he learned the Old Yang style of Taiji. In retrospect, Chang probably did not use exact names like Stomach 9, or even the Chinese names. He probably just gave the exact area.

Braden

01-27-2002, 09:27 AM

FT - Just to clarify, in case you didn't know. Although dim mak is what he markets, it's not a 'required' aspect of his system. It's just the way he looks at things, the same way all of Liang Shou-yu's approaches approach things in terms of throwing. You can ignore the dim mak and see that Erle's stuff focuses heavily on the basics and on striking techniques. For instance, I'm completely uninterested in dim mak, but I think Erle's stuff is great. When I see his double palm change I see first: strike the forearm, floating ribs, control, strike the floating ribs, floating ribs and bladder, control, strike the neck, elbow the floating ribs, strike the mastoid, crank the neck, control, strike the armpit, palm/elbow combo the floating ribs, intercept. Sam probably sees it all in terms of dim mak. If Liang saw it, maybe he'd first see control, shoulder stroke to throw, control, strike bladder, shoulder throw, wrapping throw, neck throw, strike armpit, wrapping throw, sweep. Any way, it's all good.

Sam Wiley

01-27-2002, 10:17 AM

Braden,

Second palm change...
Beautiful Lady Throws Fan: Block a right punch on the outside with right forearm and left palm,
Close the Door and Push the Moon: Strike with left palm to TW13 and right palm to GB24
Fierce Tiger Jumps Out: He pulls his arm back, so follow him forward with a step, grab his wrist with the right hand, and then push forward with the left palm above the elbow as the right palm pulls back to break,
Beautiful Bird Stretches Wings: Jerk his arm down and strike with the elbow to Spleen17 as another opponent comes from behind with a right punch to your head, which you duck under and strike to Liv13 with left palm,
Piercing the Armor: the second opponent throws a left, so you strike his arm and redirect it upward, grab his elbow at H3 and Co12, twist CCW and jerk toward you, then step in with a left finger strike to CV22,
Stealing the Helmet: Take his left wrist with your left palm, step around behind him and strike across Bl51 with right palm, then angle your right shoulder up into his shoulder as you scrape your right forearm up his arm to strike him at the Mind Point, turning as you do so to pull his back against yours. Step forward and pull downwards to dislocate shoulder and throw.
Embrace the Moon: Another opponent comes in with a right punch, so block it upward with P'eng,
Flower Hides Beneath Leaf: Step around behind and strike to BL51 while jerking wrist, lock wrist and elbow, and
Wild Geese: strike upward into H1 with right forearm and throw over right knee....

Yep, guilty as charged.:D

Braden

01-27-2002, 11:34 AM

I thought 'beautiful lady throws fan' struck with the heart of the palm to the point in between the two muscles of the forearm muscle, then you rubbed against the flow as you 'closed the door to push out the moon'?

I like it best as a soft interception. When you move your whole body into it and post into the leg (beautiful lady), you can really get him falling over himself. And then the rubbing is good, when you push the moon. I like those kinds of soft manipulations better than say, sliding it up to hammer the mastoid or under the jaw (is that where TW13 is?) with the left.

Fierce tiger is one of my favorite postures in the whole form, along with the kou bu in between 'piercing the armor' and 'stealing the helmet,' 'golden serpent twists around the willow tree' from the eighth, and of course the basic circlewalking/dragon/guard posture. Everyone I talk to seems to like the elbow breaking app for fierce tiger, but I like using the heaven palm in it as a 'clearing' motion to sweep away his arms, break his posture, and take the outside door as you advance aggresively and floating rib thump with the fire palm. When I do the clearing motion, I feel like the coiling makes me want to rotate my forearm so my palm faces the opponent, but when I instead visualize those rotations being transmitted to the opponent through contact, somehow it totally tangles up their posture. Really neat stuff.

I was shown a really great app for 'flower hides under leaf' where you kind of hug the guy in between your embracing arms as you swing around and settle your weight. The feeling is pretty remarkable, as it twists you up and uproots you rather dramatically, but you never really feel any force coming at you. Will have to remember to ask to see it again, heh.

Man... you know what predisposed me to ignoring the crap about Erle's stuff on the net and giving him the benefit of the doubt? His students are almost the only group who will consistently have technical discussions. Even the neijia list stuff is pretty sparse. Seems to me, that's gotta speak VOLUMES about how they train.

Sam Wiley

01-27-2002, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Braden
I thought 'beautiful lady throws fan' struck with the heart of the palm to the point in between the two muscles of the forearm muscle, then you rubbed against the flow as you 'closed the door to push out the moon'?

You can do that as well. I tend to do that one more than the "clamping" thing, but I tend to do Close the Door and Push the Moon afterwards with the step in as in the fourth palm change. The softer intercept seems to lend itself more to moving in than standing ground.

I like it best as a soft interception. When you move your whole body into it and post into the leg (beautiful lady), you can really get him falling over himself. And then the rubbing is good, when you push the moon. I like those kinds of soft manipulations better than say, sliding it up to hammer the mastoid or under the jaw (is that where TW13 is?) with the left.

TW13 is on the arm. It's in the "posterior inferior aspect of the deltoid muscle," according to Erle's book. Basically what that means is that it's between the triceps muscle and the bulge on the shoulder. It's really sore if you press it. It's the place you hit when you frog someone on the arm.

Fierce tiger is one of my favorite postures in the whole form, along with the kou bu in between 'piercing the armor' and 'stealing the helmet,' 'golden serpent twists around the willow tree' from the eighth, and of course the basic circlewalking/dragon/guard posture. Everyone I talk to seems to like the elbow breaking app for fierce tiger, but I like using the heaven palm in it as a 'clearing' motion to sweep away his arms, break his posture, and take the outside door as you advance aggresively and floating rib thump with the fire palm. When I do the clearing motion, I feel like the coiling makes me want to rotate my forearm so my palm faces the opponent, but when I instead visualize those rotations being transmitted to the opponent through contact, somehow it totally tangles up their posture. Really neat stuff.

Do you mean something like Fair Lady Works Shuttles from Taiji? That kind of sounds like it. Both palms toward him?

I was shown a really great app for 'flower hides under leaf' where you kind of hug the guy in between your embracing arms as you swing around and settle your weight. The feeling is pretty remarkable, as it twists you up and uproots you rather dramatically, but you never really feel any force coming at you. Will have to remember to ask to see it again, heh.

Interesting...I'd love to see that one.

Man... you know what predisposed me to ignoring the crap about Erle's stuff on the net and giving him the benefit of the doubt? His students are almost the only group who will consistently have technical discussions. Even the neijia list stuff is pretty sparse. Seems to me, that's gotta speak VOLUMES about how they train.

:)

Zantesuken

01-27-2002, 03:49 PM

Sam Wiley trust me those people don't make mistakes. That's the Wushu version of the form so they take some liberties. Heh I don't htink Erle can do those movies :p.

So do you live in Australia to learn or do you just email him?

Braden

01-27-2002, 04:48 PM

"The softer intercept seems to lend itself more to moving in than standing ground."

Yeah. As a rule, I like the apps that keep me moving. ;)

"TW13 is on the arm."

Gotcha. So you slam it there instead of sliding up for the head targets.

"Do you mean something like Fair Lady Works Shuttles from Taiji? That kind of sounds like it. Both palms toward him?"

I'm afraid I don't really know any taiji. Would love to pick it up some day, as push hands seems very cool, and the bits of long form I know give me a real nice feeling quite different than anything from bagua. Ideally would like to pick up some Hao or Sun some day, to keep in line with a 'keep me moving' strategy.

Drilling it out, the app might go like this: Standing normally, facing opponent. He throws a mid-level his-right jab or hook. Extend your-right so that you contact his attack from below with the back of the forearm/palm, your elbow crooked so keep his force sliding past you; while extending an empty step straight into him (say, in between his legs). Shift forward into a bow / fierce tiger, lots of fun coiling going up to your arm that is in contact with his (for people who don't know fierce tiger - said arm turns so that the upper arm is mostly perpendicular to ground, forearm points mostly up, palm faces you, like holding a mirror). The idea is, you have his outside door, you turn and push his arms away from you, misaligning his posture. When I do this with someone, I get the feeling from the coiling that I WANT to turn my palm around to face them (in fact when I wasn't paying good enough attention at first, this would reliably happen). However, I got the feeling of visualizing that 'physical motivation' (awkward phrasing, I don't know the term for it!) being transmitted into the opponent, so the palm stays facing you, like in the actual posture. For some reason I find when I do this, the other guy gets alot more twisted up than if I let my palm turn. It's the little details sometimes! From here, of course, just thump a convenient target with your left hand - floating ribs probably if you're following the posture literally. But there's tonnes of great apps from that entry. The 'shoulder stroke' from Tim Cartmell's book fits perfectly here, and in fact the entrance is very similar (although I like fierce tiger alot better). Elbowing the mastoid or another good target works too, which would look just like 'grab opponent from horse' from the fourth change. It's also very easy to swing around directly behind from here and do any of a million things (picture the mirror palm sliding forward as you step around behind, to grasp under the chin). Or you could sink your mirror palm, turning it towards him like coming out of 'flock of wild geese burst out' to strike the center of his chest or shove him straight at the ground. I think 'holding and pushing with both palms' in Erle's linear form is like this, with a different entry than fierce tiger, and both palms of course... Anyway, idle thoughts... :) Working the fierce tiger app in more of a free-flow, it sometimes looks like it necessitates a pre-emptive weave - picture weaving away from a hook to the head, while sweeping that mirror palm up to take the outside - and the contact seems to happen more vertical, and higher up on the opponent's arm, necessitating a bit more 'pushing.'

Zantesuken - furiusg shows some good entertainment and fabulous athleticism, but surely you're not comparing it to martial utility?

Sam Wiley

01-27-2002, 05:04 PM

Zantesuken,
Which mistakes don't they make? Obvious loss of balance? Or one of the others? I'm not talking specifically of the mpg's on that site, as i have a few others. But they are of some of the same people. And yes, they make mistakes, too. When one of the performers drops into stance and loses his balance badly enough for the audience to go, "ooohhh!," then he is not perfect.

As far as the sword forms go, I just want to know what is and is not correct so I can work on my own. I am aware that some people exercise artistic license, and that's fine. But that's different than making mistakes.

I've seen Erle do some moves I don't dare attempt. On the other hand, I can do some moves that he doesn't dare attempt. Just because he can't do a fancy acrobatic kick from one of those forms (And I'm not necessarily saying he can't) doesn't mean he is not skilled. Just because i can (and I'm not saying I can) doesn't mean I can pull it off in a fight.

Let me tell you a story...
Two farmers were talking one day. They disagreed on how to run their farms. Farmer John thought the best way to run his farm was to focus on raising chickens, while Farmer Bob thought the best way to run his farm was to focus on raising cattle. Farmer Bob's voice began to raise steadily in volume, until he was yelling at Farmer John, and Farmer John started yelling back. Farmer Bob yelled at Farmer John, "I'm telling you that you need to raise cattle and leave chickens alone!" Farmer John stopped yelling for a second, and dragged Farmer Bob over to look at his chicken enclosure. "Do you see that pile of chicken sh!t there, Farmer Bob?" he asked. "I see it," replied Farmer Bob. "Do you know what that white speck is on top of it?" asked Farmer John. Farmer Bob shook his head and mumbled"...no...." "Well, now," said Farmer John, "here you are trying to tell me how to run my farm, and you don't know sh!t!"

Sam Wiley

01-27-2002, 05:16 PM

Hey Braden,
That's very similar to Fair Lady. Besides the angle of the top arm, the palm turns outward in Fair Lady. There is a variation of it in the Large San Sau form where we use P'eng (Thunder palm) to block, then take over that block with the left P'eng drawing the right palm back a bit and changing step at the same time, and striking forward with the right palm, which is similar to the last app you listed in your post if I read it right, except for the addition of the initial right palm.

I like doing it from the outside, though, because it really closes him up, and you only have to use a little force to make him fall right over. Your arms can be totally limp, and as long as you move forward, he'll fall.

Zantesuken

01-29-2002, 05:37 PM

seeing as how it's not a COMPETITION and it's PRACTICE time then it's logical to make mistakes. EVERYONE on the Beijing wushu A TEAM made at least one or two mistakes but it's only practise. The olympics is in 2008 they have LOTS of time to train. and what's your point of the story? i study tai chi you study tai chi bla bla bla

Zantesuken

01-29-2002, 05:45 PM

and meh opinions may differ becuase you're mostly practising for the fighting aspect. you can't achieve a high level in martial arts if all ou think about is fighting.

and WHAT kind of moves does erle do that you dare not do? has he trained so he can do that SUPER slow high kick? that's got a lot of internal stuff to for the high masters. I would rip the tape if i had a tv card but I have a tape of some 1980's and early 90's Tai Chi competitions. THOSE guys were amazing. This guy would go ups lowly and it was like his arms were pulling his legs up and jeez haha he got something like 9.6 in the end. i think all the male competitors go tover 9 and same w/ females which some forms looked even better.

as for the sword forms it's not artistic license it's still tai chi. i would suggest you take a look at other people becuase you're only looking at tai chi from one viewpoint

01-29-2002, 09:01 PM

Just a note to the Aussies asking questions about Earle.
He has now relocated to Oberon and still does monthly training sessions up there,all are welcome and its a good learning enviroment.You can ask all the questions you like:)

Sam Wiley

01-29-2002, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Zantesuken
and meh opinions may differ becuase you're mostly practising for the fighting aspect. you can't achieve a high level in martial arts if all ou think about is fighting.

and WHAT kind of moves does erle do that you dare not do? has he trained so he can do that SUPER slow high kick? that's got a lot of internal stuff to for the high masters. I would rip the tape if i had a tv card but I have a tape of some 1980's and early 90's Tai Chi competitions. THOSE guys were amazing. This guy would go ups lowly and it was like his arms were pulling his legs up and jeez haha he got something like 9.6 in the end. i think all the male competitors go tover 9 and same w/ females which some forms looked even better.

as for the sword forms it's not artistic license it's still tai chi. i would suggest you take a look at other people becuase you're only looking at tai chi from one viewpoint

I focus on every aspect there is to Taijiquan...acupoint striking, fighting, self-defense, self-healing, healing others, meditation, massage, you name it. Erle himself focuses more on healing than fighting these days, despite the whole Dim-Mak thing that pays his bills. Erle is a lot more flexible than I am. There are pictures on his site somewhere (or there used to be, haven't looked for them recently) of him doing an extremely high kick, almost a split. He can also hold his staff in both hands and jump over it with both feet, where I can't. The last time I tried that, I ended up falling and hyperextending my right elbow. I've broken, hyperextended, sprained, and torn apart enough joints, so I don't fool with that kind of crap anymore. And as for my view point on Taiji...I AM looking at other sources, ALL THE TIME.

I suggest you go back and read the story about the farmers, because you OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T GET IT.

Zantesuken

01-29-2002, 11:09 PM

hehe more like i didn't read it. i read the beginning about cows and then something about knowing nothing in the end. anyways FINE then show me the pictures and i will say differently. i'm not gonna gab about him like you do but if you do show me the pics then i will discuss openly with you without accidentally setting off some ****off trigger :)

Zantesuken

01-29-2002, 11:17 PM

ookay i read the story ;) so basically you think you know more than me. meh if that's what you wanna think cause i'm getting bored of having the same arguement over and over. i looked erle up on the internet and found some more respectable pictures of him. i guess he seemed pretty fit when he was younger but in that video i guess he's a little outa shape cause of the years gainin on him

Sam Wiley

01-30-2002, 12:06 AM

He used to have a photo gallery on his site, but I guess he doesn't have it anymore because it's not listed in the contents page like it used to be.

But anyway, a pic of him doing a really high kick doesn't have anything to do with anything. I was just trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to illustrate that things are different even between two people who practice the same forms and study the same system.

Now, if you took that story to mean that I was trying to belittle you, let me assure you that it was not intended that way. It was meant to illustrate that you do not know everything. Neither do I. I have, however, been practicing a bit longer than you, and I am a bit older than you, and I have had experience in things that I hope you never will. I am not the most patient or tolerant person in the world, either. That is why there is a different tone in the posts I write to you than the ones I write to other people. I don't like sh!t-disurbers, and I don't tolerate insults and snide remarks. I post on this board more than any others because this board is full of people who are open-minded and polite, even when they are disagreeing. I am not the only one you have rubbed the wrong way.

Now, if you want to discuss something intellectually or even scientifically, then by all means do so. But so far, you have not done so. You have been insulting, abrasive, and have not contributed much that I have seen. There are many different ways of expressing yourself and your point of view without being rude, obnoxious, insulting, abrasive, or counterproductive. Please explore those options.

red_fists

01-30-2002, 12:15 AM

Hi Sam.

Can I ask you a personal Question.

How much have you trained with EM himself?

Just curious as you seem to defend him and his style a lot, so I would assume that you have done quiet a bit of personal training with him.
As you seem to fairly glued up on EM himself.
Personally, I would like to meet him once, so that I could form a better Opinion on him.
Rather than having to rely on Online Boards and his published stuff.

Again, just a plain question to satisfy my curious mind.

Zantesuken

01-30-2002, 03:29 PM

hrmm so you are 23 or 24? I dunno age doesn't make that much of a difference. I've studied Tai Chi since i was 8 or 9 if that accounts for anything :p. And chi kung goes much faster when you're younger than it would when your older but i guess the results are the same. fine fine from now on intelectual instructions 3rd degree sifu :p.

Chris McKinley

01-30-2002, 11:30 PM

Zantesuken,

might I inquire as to your current age? Your profile doesn't state it specifically, though in your interests slot you state, "Tai Chi rocks and I will one day master it! 20 years dude!". Are you setting yourself the goal of Taiji mastery within 20 years of practice or are you stating that this is your current age?

Kaitain(UK)

01-31-2002, 05:00 AM

seems a weird supposition to claim "you can't achieve a high level in martial arts if all you think about is fighting".

I'm unaware that leaping through the air lends itself in any way, shape or form to the higher levels of martial arts. I'd also say that 'looking fit' is not a prerequisite or attirbute of neiija ability. The whole point is an 80 year old should be able to use it ("see off a gang of youths" as the classics put it - excuse my paraphrasing)

I would say that the only way you can attain a higer level in martial arts is to do nothing except think about fighting. If you are worrying about how you look or how your form looks then all you are attaining is a superficial level.

Wushu is not Neija - Taiji as a performance is not Neija. Taiji is not a beautifiul art in its purpose - it is brutal and pragmatic.

Zantesuken

01-31-2002, 04:47 PM

being fit doens't mean muscle. 80 year olds can be fit and i mean fit in as in healthy. internally if they're healthy then outside they're fine. heh but i dunno learning tai chi is different. you loosen your intestines and stuff and you actually do get fit. you get a bit taller and you get more bod hair :). hahaha i dunno that's what my sifu says i think to bug me tho.

and mckinly. 20 years is mastery AFTER 20 years. i was told when i'm practising don't think about other people's fa-jing or other eople sending people flying back. if you do that then you get preoccupied and you won't be as good as you can be. just practise everyday and eventually you'll get there. my grandma says that her sifu said something to the extent of, "Practise tai chi everyday for 5 years and you'll see a little improvement. Practise for 10 and you'll notice another small improvement. After 15-20 years you'll begin to notice the accumulation of your hard work and bla i couldn't translate the rest cause it was said in chiense

bamboo_ leaf

01-31-2002, 05:48 PM

“seems a weird supposition to claim "you can't achieve a high level in martial arts if all you think about is fighting".

Think of it this way, when most people think of fighting it is always against the other on a physical level.
This is the what I would call the first way of understanding.

As you refine your skill I think the idea is less and less of fighting but more along the lines of receiving and using energy.

The perspective is different. When Z, talks of fa-jing for example, I can relate to that because I have felt what he describes.

It doesn’t seem to be much like what I read about by others posting here so many will discount it. That’s okay, it doesn’t mean one way is right or another is wrong I tend to view it as different levels of understanding.

Unless you have or know someone who can really do it then the it’s very hard to understand. More so if you’re looking in terms of self defense or “fighting”

The training and idea seems to be totally opposite of what you would expect.

I have seen this with different people, even if they have the potential they never will reach it because they can’t let go of the idea of this is only for fighting.

I think the perspective of your practice tends to open or close higher ideas that lead to these levels. As one poster put I think “Demon hand” said "let others follow their way, you follow yours”

i like this :)