Attention: JF SPRINGER

[brucelee2]

Hi,

I was curious if you'd care to share how your kung fu training was of service to you while you were in the armed forces. Thanks-

[CanadianBadAss]

I'm a bad person.

Not THAT bad, CanadianBadAss.

I would be very interested in Springer's answer on this, as I don't know anything about the armed forces.

[JF Springer]

The attributes were of greater value than actual techniques. Moving quietly through the bush for extended periods of time requires a lot of stamina, balance and mental toughness.

We were designed to go "deep" without support or back-up for extremely long periods of time. That in of itself is a difficult thing to deal with both mentally and physically.

The will to squeeze the trigger on a man framed in your sight picture guilty only of being on the wrong side of the political equation is nowhere near as "easy" as some would have you believe. The image that at some point in time the guy was a young child who looked up at the night sky and gazed in awe and wonder at God’s creation was never lost on me. That level of discipline can be found, nurtured and developed in TCMA.

The ability to shoot-move & communicate while wearing the skull fragments and splattered brains of what was the troop on your immediate flank is reflective of high level sustained focus while under duress which can be developed through proper TCMA practice.

To sum it up - Undergoing the rigors of real, authentic TCMA training and practice over much time leads to a rock solid belief that it's all a process and everything is transient in nature. No matter how fu*cked up, no matter how painful, no matter how miserable, no matter what, remaining focused, in the moment, and 100% committed to achieving the intended outcome will produce the best result possible.

Whether or not that means you get to see the sun rise another day is always suspect but never a question. I know of far better soldiers than me that are maggot sh*it in the jungles of South-Central America while I’m still breathing in and out, go figure :)

[brucelee2]

JF- good response, thanks. Anyone else here former/current military wanna kick in their 2cents?

[joedoe]

Where is qimaster when you need him? :)

[guohuen]

Huge advantage! I know better soldiers than me that are maggot dung in the jungles of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.
You survive because you have enough will and chi to take a 60 away from a bigger guy that's wobbling and about to drop on a force march.
You survive because you have the will and chi to swim 2 miles to shore with a 70pd. field pack a 6 1/5 pd. rifle and a 3pd. steel helmut after the gas bottle breaks off your life vest on a jump.
You survive because you have the will and chi to walk point with a compass at almost a double time in triple canopy down the ridge lines at night for twenty clics so your platoon can be dusted off after 5 days incountry with contact everyday.
You survive because you have the will, chi and enough heat in your lower dan to not succumb to hypothermia by starting the fire in your dan and pressing your rifle butt hard into your cheek to stay awake and to keep your face out of the water and clenching your jaw to keep your teeth from rattling so you can wake everyone else up.
I'm sure others have good examples.
Peace

[JF Springer]

Right on point my Brother by a different Mother :) We've all seen people who appear "superior" in every sense of the word from a physical perspective get wiped clean out because their mind and will were WEAK.

All kinds of technically superior people running around who Star Down big time in a controlled environment but fall apart under less than ideal circumstances.

That's the biggest advantage I see to having been down in "blood and the mud." He*ll, let's face it, your Ranger School is primarily geared to break a man or force him to confront his breaking point. Same deal with the SFAS Course. People died during my cycle and out of 458 pre-qualified, pre-selected candidates who started the SFAS Course, there were only 161 of us left standing at the end. That was only the first gate to clear as there were 3 others.

The technical and tactical are necessary, and indeed, these are the elements that define an art. HEART is what defines the man, HEART is what transforms the tactically and technically proficient man into a Warrior.

[guohuen]

Ouch! That's rugged! No one died in my cycle. A few classes before me two Pakistani officers flunked out and were shot back home and a few classes after mine eight ranger students, the pilot , copilot and crew chief died hitting a mountain in Ga. in the fog. Two students survived. Five of the guys that died were my pals. Our class started with 200 and 70 graduated. 75 medical discharges, 50 dropouts and 5 failures on points. Your right, it's all about finding the wall. I don't think I learned anything new as I had already been assigned for 5 months and had more intensive training with the unit. I did hit the wall a couple of times and work around it, but I lost 27LBS. I didn't have to lose.
Peace Brother! Toney

[DelicateSound]

If you're reading this Sifu Abel - THIS is the kind of thread that makes me feel stupid and 17.

Man, I have a lot of respect for you vets. Makes Apocalypse Now seem like Bambi.

[Ralek]

Your not going to have a machine gun when you are just walking down the street. All that military training where you shoot guns will go down the toilet when you get into a fight in the real world cuase you don't have guns. Military stuff is with guns and bazookas and stuff. Not hand to hand.

I have more hand to hand combat experience that most war veterans from various branches of the military combined. I have been raised in the ghettos of Frederick and have seen and participated in violent street conflicts and i have fought a taijiquan instructor and knocked him out. In chinese taijiquan means "Grand Ultimate Fist". So that makes taijiquan the best kung fu. And i destroyed the "Grand Ultimate Fist" style so i have destroyed the best style kung fu has to offer. I have also defeated various san shou champions.

[jon]

There is humor and there is plain bad taste dont confuse the two.

"All that military training where you shoot guns will go down the toilet when you get into a fight in the real world cuase you don't have guns. Military stuff is with guns and bazookas and stuff. Not hand to hand."
- All your spineless insults will go 'strait down the toilet' the second you actualy come face to face with someone who has actualy been in 'military stuff'. Why dont you join the military? It would be a walk in the park according to you. Plus im pretty sure they always have positions 'available-expendable' for people like yourself. Young dumb and like a can full of bright red tomato juice. The term 'fragbait' comes to mind.

"I have more hand to hand combat experience that most war veterans from various branches of the military combined."
- Yeah i can scrap too, that doesnt mean squat to someone who defends there country for a living. Its only a shame they dont get to pick who they do and dont protect. Else you my friend would be in a whole world of hurt.

"I have been raised in the ghettos of Frederick and have seen and participated in violent street conflicts"
- Tell that to a soldier fighting in a third world country over and argument he hardly understands himself. I would bet you sleep much more confortably than they do. Your little street games dont mean a thing when your playing for keeps.

"i have fought a taijiquan instructor and knocked him out."
- Your not the first are proberly wont be the last, if you took on a well renound one i might be impressed. What was the name of this 'instructor'?

The rest of your post just went back to good old fashioned Ralek and i can live with that. Just please reframe from posting your ignorence in a thread where there is actualy much to be learned. Keep it in your usual trolling and style vs style threads, its better recieved. Like i say big difference between humour and just plain insulting.

P.S Thanks for your insight JF Springer and guohuen, your country is lucky to have men like yourselfs:)

[Ralek]

Hello!!!!! Didn't you read my post??? I didn't say that military stuff was not hard and did not work. Someone with a gun could easily defeated hand to hand fighters like Mike Tyson, Rickson Gracie, Vanderli Silva, ect. I admit that military fighting can easily defeat hand to hand fighters.

But military fighting is only for guns and bazookas and stuff like that. The best military fighter in the world who knows how to drive air planes and shoot machine guns could be easily defeated by Mike Tyson on the street becuase on the street you don't have air planes and battle ships and machine guns.

So that's the difference between military and hand to hand. Being a good air plane piolet or machine gunner does not do anything for your hand to hand experiecne.

[Silumkid]

Ralek,

How much you don't know fills volumes. I hope JF Springer sees you talking smack about the military and uses it as additonal fuel to whup you bad. And if for some reason, he doesn't, then I hope you still have this bug when I get around to that part of the country. I'd love to educate you military style, boy.

You can talk smack about styles and how you ride Gracie jock all you want, but you WILL NOT disrespect the men and women who gave their lives so that you can continue to be an idiot.

[wushu chik]

HA HA, you go big bro

[KungFuGuy!]

Ralek, I think you didn't read JF's post. He never claimed that his army training makes him a better hand to hand fighter (although I'm sure it helps with more than one aspect), he was saying how his martial arts training has improved his soldiering skills. Your post is out of place and makes you sound even more stupid (somehow).

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, Ok I know,

Basically he's saying the militery teaches ARMED combat skills not UNARMED skills. In the un armed arena, WE are better trained.
Now, I have not been in the military, but one of my trainig partneres is a former Marine, and his basic position on things is similar to Ralek. HE claims it's his Kempo training that made him such a good fighter, NOT his military experiance.

It makes sense to me. *If you train to shoot guns, that's what your going to be good at. If you train to fight empty hand your going to be best at that. It does not matter where you trained, military or otherwise, its WHAT you train that counts.

Now, the military does give you many atrributes that a traditional Kung Fu system does. BUT it also gives many atribute that Traditional arts no longer can, like getting into REAL life and death, under unsurmountable pressure. The Traditional arts can't put you "In the ****". And unless you've been in it, you will never know what your made of, or reach your highest potential due to lack of experiance. In that , the perticular skllls are irrelevant, it's experiancing the extreame conditions that tests a man's medal.

And if I may quote my freind "someone trained in both martial (empty hand) and military arts is NOT to be messed with". Now, Take that person after he's seen action and has known the pressure of life and death struggle, your talking one dangerious man...........................................

RD

[anton]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon


Basically he's saying the militery teaches ARMED combat skills not UNARMED skills. In the un armed arena, WE are better trained.
Now, I have not been in the military, but one of my trainig partneres is a former Marine, and his basic position on things is similar to Ralek. HE claims it's his Kempo training that made him such a good fighter, NOT his military experiance.



His point may or may not be true (as soldiers are also trained in unarmed combat)...... But that's irrelevant. Read KFG's post. Ralek's post is off topic and disrespectful. His argument came out of nowhere. As KFG already mentioned: JF never claimed that soldiers are better fighters than non-military martial artists (although there is a strong argument to say they are). This is just another attempt by Ralek to hijack another thread. I suggest we now return to the topic and stop feeding the troll.

Have any of you military guys done any qigong? If so, did this help you cope mentally with the realities of war?

[JF Springer]

**Your not going to have a machine gun when you are just walking down the street. All that military training where you shoot guns will go down the toilet when you get into a fight in the real world cuase you don't have guns. Military stuff is with guns and bazookas and stuff. Not hand to hand.

Totally wrong. Military science is focused on developing and perfecting the attributes necessary to perform one function and one function only, kill the enemies of America.

**I have more hand to hand combat experience that most war veterans from various branches of the military combined.

Absolute bull$hit as you have nothing to draw upon as a source of information. I spent my time in a US Army Special Forces ODA, that's what Hollywood calls an "A Team" stupid $hit. We trained unarmed hand to hand every single day, full out, no pu$$y pads or "wrasslin" mats. You know nothing of close quarters kill. I'm fixing that for you on the 25th.

**I have been raised in the ghettos of Frederick and have seen and participated in violent street conflicts ...

And I cut my teeth living in the Bronx, NY. Punks like you wouldn't make it down from the Grand Concourse.

[guohuen]

Hahahaha, oh young Mr. Ralek. Why did you turn off your email? I wanted to talk to you in private.
Jack Springer is a Patriot and a Hero and a Master that has devoted himself to helping people like you! How dare you be insulting or threatening to him! I know your not a real street punk because I was one.I know that this is just creative writing for you and it's all supposed to be good fun. You've gone too far.
If you choose not to apologize to the people whom you were rude to, you will never know when I'm going to appear and backhand you in the mouth. There will be nothing you or anyone else will be able to do about it. Trust me on this. If you turn on your email I'll tell you who I am and you can ask the Howard County Police about it.

[JF Springer]

D@mn, once again, hats off brother :) Hoffman Street, Little Italy section, right across the street from Fordham University. Free fire zone during the late 1970s. Cops quit responding to emergency calls as they were being set up to take roof top sniper fire. A man was his own "law" from Judge-Jury-Executioner. I hear that the Bronx has become a "National Jewel" in the urban renewal efforts. Thinking back on the burned out badlands I knew it's impossible to picture.

If you get into Maryland don't waste your time with this Troll punk. Pay me a visit and we'll go for some decent food and "tell a few lies" about the days of rage :) There's a whole underground of SpecOps people in my area. He*ll, there's even a plank member of the original SEAL Team right down the road from me. Now that guy has some interesting insights as to what really went down in VN.

[Royal Dragon]

Admitedly, I know little of the military outside of what little those that do have told me.

Do all branches do extensive hand to hand training? or is it just Special forces units? I was always under the impression that the military trained the mental attribtues nessasary for deadly combat, not nessasarily the actual combat systems to a great extent, at least not the extent we do as martial artists because firearms use is a higher priority.

Also, how much of that is Traditional Kung Fu and how much of that is unique to the US Military?

I spent a short time under Master Steven Abbate (Well, his senior Rocky Lombardi anyway) And from his desciption, it sounds like Asian Martial arts as well as boxing (My dad boxed in the army)were a big thing in the military. I'm curious, is that extra curricular, or is it part of mainstream training?

Royal Dragon

[guohuen]

Cool Bro! I have a Mom and a Sis in Md. I'll be visiting sometime this year. Sheila and I would love to have you out to dinner.

[JF Springer]

*Admitedly, I know little of the military outside of what little those that do have told me.

Cool, keep it that way.

*Do all branches do extensive hand to hand training?

Depends, the US Marines have been looking for a standard accelerated hand to hand platform for years. Last thing I know they were trying out was something designed by Tony Blauer, based on "line drills" if you know that format.

*... or is it just Special forces units?

SF is a term unique to the Army. Each branch (Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force) has a number of Special Operations units. These generally range from Direct Action (Rangers) missions to long range, deep penetration intelligence gathering.

*I was always under the impression that the military trained the mental attribtues nessasary for deadly combat, not nessasarily the actual combat systems to a great extent, at least not the extent we do as martial artists because firearms use is a higher priority.

Well, yes and no, a true "Zen" answer :) Above and beyond the mere technical attributes associated with TCMA what do you find? Ah yes, the mental and the spiritual aspects of the art. So what do many MA prize most? Anyone can get the "block, punch, kick, lock & throw" stuff down reasonable well with a fair amount of practice and proper instruction. What cannot be "taught" but only "learned" are what you referred to as the mental attributes. It takes time and repeated exposure to become acclimatized to the ultra violent.

*Also, how much of that is Traditional Kung Fu and how much of that is unique to the US Military?

Can't speak for anyone else but on my team every guy had something and brought it to the table with all the gusto they could manage. Ranged from Wing Chun to Mongolian Wrestling.

*I spent a short time under Master Steven Abbate (Well, his senior Rocky Lombardi anyway) And from his desciption, it sounds like Asian Martial arts as well as boxing (My dad boxed in the army)were a big thing in the military.

Depends. If you look inside a traditional Army Infantry Line Unit you'll find guys that go at this thing 7 days a week. If it's some pogue support unit you'll find guys going at the coffee and donuts 7 days a week :)

*I'm curious, is that extra curricular, or is it part of mainstream training?

IME, once you're qualified in a Combat Arms MOS and assigned to a Line Unit there's no such thing as "extra curricular" activities. Basically, everything you do is somehow related to increasing your combat abilities. Take a look at the guys in the 82nd Airborne. They are harder than wood p*ecker lips straight across the board.

[Paul]

If it's some pogue support unit you'll find guys going at the coffee and donuts 7 days a week

haha. That's pretty much accurate. I was in support units in the USMC. hand to hand combat wasn't stressed.

The marine corps has a new martial arts program now. Everyone is required to put time into and they have belt rankings and the whole nine yards.

[Royal Dragon]

LoL!! That line was funny.

Seriously though, thanks for the info.

Gian

[DelicateSound]

Man oh man. Ralek's ignorance is superior. Jack, please waste him. Painfully.

Paul - Love the www.despair.com quote! I like:

DOUBT: Its a battle between you and the world. I bet on the world.

LONELINESS: If you find yourself battling with lonelyness you're not alone. And yet you are alone. So very alone.