Mang Fu Ha Sahn ?

[buddhapalm]

May I ask how many of you practice a form called "Mang Fu Ha Sahn" or "Fierce Tiger Descends The Mountain" ?

It is practiced by Fut Gar players of the Leong Tien Chu line. He taught in the 1920's and onward.

I heard and read that the form is also practiced in the "Southern Shaolin Black Tiger System" and "Fong Yang" and "Beggar Style". (Beggar Style may be the same as Fong Yang, i'm not sure)

It could be a form that derived directly from the Southern Temple.

Any thoughts, comments and opinions appreciated.

Warmest Regards

Buddhapalm

[Ao Qin]

Hi Buddhapalm,

Not really relevent maybe, but there is a beautiful Bak Mei / Lung Ying older Hakka form that goes by that name. It's one of the most powerful sets I've ever seen - not many people do this set, I hope one day to learn it myself!

Cheers!

[buddhapalm]

Hi Ao Qin,

Is it possible to know how the Bak Mei / Lung Ying Hakka form looks like a little ?

Is it close short range techniques in a higher horse like typical Bak Mei, or is it featuring low horse stances and big circular blocks and backfists, palms and uppercuts. This is how mine looks like. It has the feeling of a tiger style.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[fiercest tiger]

i was wondering if thats mung fu chut lum instead of mung fu ha san?

fierce tiger exits the forest?

thanks mate:)

[buddhapalm]

Hi Fiercest Tiger,
No its not Mang Fu Chut Lum, though I have heard of this set by name, sounds similar.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[fiercest tiger]

i know of a form called fierce tiger jumps over the wall, thats in dragon and some ykm, pak mei schools.

ill ask around:)

[Ao Qin]

Hello,

It is definatly not Mang Foo Chut Lum, it is a harder form, lots of biu sao's, tight foo jows, and circular grabbing technique. The stances are very low. There is an older bow on the form, not Lung Ying, not Bak Mei, but what they call old session (the base Hakka Art to both of these Arts). It is certainly one of the more advanced sets I have ever seen in Lung Ying. However, I have never seen these older session sets included in the "modern" curriculums out there.

Mang Foo Tiew Cheung (Fierce Tiger Jumps the Wall) is an older session Lung Ying form, seems to me where some of the Bak Mei material must have originated from. This form is GREAT for the back - really loosens up the old spine!

There are other names for this set - can't recall them offhand, I'll check my notes.

Cheers - kevin

[Yum Cha]

I've seen Fiercest Tiger Returning to Graystains....

[fiercest tiger]

hahaha! spelt Greystanes...;) :p

do you have this form, ask seng sifu about it?

[buddhapalm]

"Mang Fu Ha Sahn"

Can anyone tell me which style this came from ?

Are there different versions ?

Do other versions start with three circular fist blocks in front, step into "sey ping ma" and left palm, followed by left clockwise circular block and right backfist touching left wrist area, followed by "Monkey Graps The Peach" ... many circular clocks, uppercuts, double palms and backfists.

If Lung Ying or Bak Mei has a "Mang Fu Ha Sahn" is it similar to the one I describe, or only has it just the same name ?

Buddhapalm

[Shaolin Master]

Buddhapalm,

yours sounds similar to our Futsan Hung Kuen form.

We also have Night Tiger catches prey, and a host of others.

[buddhapalm]

Shaolin Master

Can you tell me more about Futsan Hung Kuen ? I have heard of Hung Kuen and its usual forms, but not anything on Futsan Hung Kuen or "Night Tiger catches prey" form.

Is it related closely to Lam Sai Wing's Hung Kuen.

Sounds very interesting. I would love to learn more about it, on the forum or off. <teleka@pacbell.net>

Do you have a Big Buddha Palm Form ? nothing but palms, chops, slaps and pokes, slow and smooth like Tai Chi or Ba Gua.

I am researching the roots of some of my forms. My Sifu passed away 9 years ago, so I have to do my own history homework now.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[sanjia]

Ao Quin : Mang Foo Tiew Cheung (Fierce Tiger Jumps the Wall) is an older session Lung Ying form,

This set is practised by the Chinese run Lung Ying Jing Jung class in my town. You say 'older session', I am presuming by this you mean 'not mixed with Pak Mei'?

Melt, do you do this set?


Mark S

[Ao Qin]

Hi all,

I found the reference to the form. It is also sometimes called "Sang Lung Wood Foo" (live dragon, live tiger?). Apparently a slightly different version of Mang Foo Ha Shan. There are several other "mystery" sets I have seen, which are incredible and amazingly beautiful forms in terms of power generation and fluidity. Of these old system forms (Hakka Form), all I have been taught is an older "Poison Snake" form (not one of the regular 2 PS sets).

Mang Foo Tiew Cheung (Wild Tiger Jumps the Wall) is also an older type form - less Dragon influence (a blended "new session" form to be sure though). I believe Bak Mei emphasized this type of power in their own system, and shares this in common (and borrowed some of it) from LYMK. It emphasizes the short, crisp, direct power. Mark - by "new session" I mean LYK's modern curriculum, blending the Dragon System with his Village System. By "old session", I mean the older Lam Family Hakka Style (Chu Gar?) - no one seems to know what this system was termed (it is hidden for some reason).

Mang Foo Chut Lum is of course Bak Mei. I have only seen pieces of this set - demonstrated by the "Tiger" of HK, on a expose on Bak Mei. Very soft and "chi gungish".

Hi Sui Fuw, - Thank you for your (somewhat) kind comments. I may indeed be that good fellow you mentioned! By the way, who the heck are my "friends" who are giving you a hard time? Did I not respond to one of your previous messages?

As to your questions, I have only seen these forms - I hope one day to learn them though! By whom? My Sifu of course, when he feels I am mature enough. If he is not familiar with the material, I am sure he would refer me to someone who could help me. My Tai Chi Style, yes, if I were to specialize, it would be Yang (hope that answers your question). Which temple is it from? I don't believe MFHS is from a temple - I believe this is simply a higher level of the old session system.

Anywho, hope that answers your questions...if you know anything more about these forms, it would be very kind of you to share it with us!

Cheers - kevin:)

[Ao Qin]

Hi Sui Fuw,

Please don't apologize! I always enjoy talking to those who share an interest in the Arts!

I was told that a student of Dragon Style would benefit more from the Yang Style (same power), and a Bak Mei student would benefit more from the Chen Style (same power). I have dabbled in Yang (short form), and even a little Liu Ha Baat Fa. I have not had formal instruction in them, nor decided which internal art I would like to really learn one day...for one thing I am not patient enough right now! Also, like you said, there are very few legitimate instructors in Tai Chi in my neck of the woods, and I don't want to waste my time learning empty movement.

I don't really understand what you mean by "lines of the circle are broken". As far as I know, both Yang Tai Chi and LY are considered "middle range" - not Northern and long like Chen, not short and South like Wu.

I have no clue which temple MFHS comes from - it would be very interesting to know though! Are there still temples / monasties in China that teach these Arts?

As for where I saw these forms performed, I saw MFHS performed at a videotaped demonstration of different Dragon Schools which came together in celebration, in 1996 (HK). I also saw several older forms performed at my Si-Bak's birthday celebration last December in HK. Stunningly beautiful sets, some of which I still have no name for, nor yet understand how they are related to the Lung Ying (sigh). My Sifu has also taught me one of these older sets.

Does anyone know more about the "older" Dragon Forms which are not included in the "modern" curriculum?

Of course I could be quite wrong about everything - that's why we're all on these forums, to learn more, and refine the knowledge of the things we think we already know!

Cheers - kevin

[lo fu la]

hello, many questions. Sui-Fuw , have answers?

Mang fu's
if tiger go's up, then it must come down? is temple on the mountain?

if lung ying internal, why it need tai gik? if tai gik long and made short,can not be small circle , must be broken? if hakka short and made long, will circle be too big, broken to ? if wall is in front, why not go a round long? only chen and yang taigik in guanzhou? how one tree and only two branch? are the other taig ikfamily unseen roots?

if lung ying survive 1000 years. can it only have one branch? old or new, which plum sweeter? does sweet matter if tree is strong? does sweeter fruit make more stronger sapling? who benefit from fruit, man who eats or ground who grows?

and hak ka/tai gik, if 'same power ', how so one win?

I am new and wish all kung fu brother here Sang Nin Fi Luk

[brothernumber9]

There is a form in Hung Fut called "Mang Fu Ha Sahn" just as you described, fierce tiger decends the mountain. Perhaps your school does teach a little hung fut or perhaps the fut ga of hung fut is the same as that which you study

[EAZ]

Originally posted by lo fu la
Mang fu's
if tiger go's up, then it must come down? is temple on the mountain?



Hello,

Is it possible that you are refering to a specific movement (in fact the principe one!) of this form in Pak Mei?

[lo fu la]

hello, EAZ

if your Master not put eyes on it,not means he sneaky, no? means student must learn from inside AND outside, yes?

so "possible" mean only one option,form mean how many? your teacher like you for pay attion in class!!!

comment est-ce que le temps est en france cette saison?

[EAZ]

Not quite sure I understand your comment (if I was meant to understand something). Did you say something nice to me? :-)

Could you try to restate your thoughts: were you refering to specific technic of the Tiger comes out of the forest/down the mountain form?

You can always write to me in French !



Originally posted by lo fu la
comment est-ce que le temps est en france cette saison?
Weather is terrible here, to answer your question. Wonder what it's like where YOU live? ..............:D

[lo fu la]

hello, EAZ friend

hard to say, best to show! inn your pakmei, only one move not make one form, gam one form DO make "one" move,.. that the eye? SO i mean think bigger, not mean so "specific" technique. to SAY it maybe help some, hurt me...but i try:

tiger jump wall
tiger get off mountain

where "sui-fuw" temple there?HAHAHA

maybe i am not good to explain? seem easy to me?somtimes can not see the sky if not told what too look for!


trop froid pour moi aujourd'hui, hahaha!!!!! vous a chinese nouvel annee?

[Ao Qin]

Hi Sui Fuw,

I apologize for not being more attentive to this forum - however, I hope you yourself are still "on" it.

You raise some very interesting points. However, every frigging time I try to respond (three times now), this forum boots me off - says I am not logged in (although I am), and I waste half an hour of my life - deletes my post for goodness sake! A week later, I am still trying to respond.

Best seemingly, to keep ones answers short and sweet!

Anyway, I can't stand abstract public fencing and mystery! If we must, let us "banter" publically, at least about easily understood, "open" topics.

If you have specific questions (to test my sincerity?!?), or are willing to help me in my own development (without feeling threatened in turn), I am always willing and able to engage in honest conversation, in front of or behind closed doors. I can share very little in return, but perhaps there is some "merit" to be gained in helping others, along this great path!

Cheers - Kevin (hkbark@mts.net)

[Yum Cha]

Eric, je sais que nous avon une pettit amis avec deu nom de plume. Une ete lo fu la.
Pardone ma Francais mauvais, mein Deutsch ist viel besser!

[EAZ]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Eric, je sais que nous avon une pettit amis avec deu nom de plume. Une ete lo fu la.
Pardone ma Francais mauvais, mein Deutsch ist viel besser!

Doch ! Es gibt nach ein personnen mit vielen namen? Und wie sagt man die zweiter vorname und was is seine name?

Vielen danken fur diese "heads-up" :D

Aber ich glaube das alle kan unsere spechen verstanden !

[lo fu la]

cheng, kui bin wai a?

[tnwingtsun]

Hello lo fu la

[Yum Cha]

EAZ, Sie sind ja voll mit uberachungen...

Ja, es is mir egal ob die andere koennen uns verstehen, wir sind sowieso beim komiche spiele...

Sie mussen ja auch aber erinnen das vielen Amis koennen nur ihr eigene sprache, oder Franzorsich. Ministens, wir sprechen uber nur die eine, und der so genante "Lehrer".

Ich glaube das madel ist die eine aus dem suden in der USA, das lange dune staat im sud osten? Sie mochte nur der andere terroriseren. Sie had ein wut an! Wir werden mal sehen ob sie im kriegt oder nicht. Ich mochte nur zuschauer werden.

Hoffentlich ist meine schlechet buchstablieren keine belidegung an ihr Deutch sprechende leute.

[EAZ]

HAHAHAHA !

[EAZ]

HAHAHAHA !

Oh well...

[buddhapalm]

Dear brothernumber9,
Sorry for the delay in my response.

In your Hung Fut version of Mang Fu Ha Sahn, is it similar to how I described it :

- Salute
- 3 inward circular fist blocks
- step into horse stance and left palm strike, right fist at waist
- left hand clockwise circle block towards left and leave it out
- followed by right backfist stricking towards left wrist area (bridge)
- monkey grabs peach, two arms circle block together and followed by double palm/grab to groin.............

...... lots of double palms, double circular open hand blocks, left palms and right uppercuts and backfists and a kick.

Also does your Hung Fut feature:

- Lien Wan Kuen / Continious Fist
- Fung Mor Kuen
- Kong Lan Kuen
- Dai Fut Jeung / Big Buddha Palm
- Yin Yang Pole
- Eight Door Pole
- Three Peaks Fork

I can also be reached at teleka@pacbell.net

Thanks

Buddhapalm

[EAZ]

Beginning of this form is the same in our Pei Mei practice, then some of the moves you mention are present, others not monkey move sounds like what we do though I never heard it called like this. But yes lots of double attacks or double blocks.

Interesting.

[buddhapalm]

EAZ,

If this set is practiced in your Bak Mei and also Hung Fut it is very interesting.

I have also seen it performed by descendants of Leong Tien Chu (taught 1920's) who taught what he called Fut Gar, but I dont think it is mainstream Fut Gar. Leong Tien Chu taught T.Y Wong (Wong Tim Yuen) who, in San Francisco taught Leo Fong and others in the 1940's- 1960's. Leo Fong wrote the book "Sil Lum Kung Fu" featuring the form Lien Wan Kuen, which I also know from my lineage.

Mang Fu Ha Sahn is also listed in "Beggar Style (Fong Yang Style ???), but I have not seen it. Black Tiger was said to have it too.

My Sifu called the double hand circular move then strike to groin - monkey grabs the peach. I dont know if thats the actual name for the move, or perhaps his humorous way to describe the move.

After Monkey Grabs Peach:
- another left clockwise block and right backfist to wrist
- R, L. circular out blocks and R. uppercut
- double, low, left scissor cross block to left side
- left inward double block
- step in and double palms to face and chest
- last three moves repeated except on other side.......
.......................xxxxxxxxxxx.........
- step into right bow stance and right uppercut
- turn to left 90 degrees, into R. cat stance, right hand turns into crane beak and hooks back to right waist
- followed by left palm strike in right cat stance...........
.......xxxxxxxxxxx................
- another left clockwise block and right backfist to wrist
- jump 180 degrees in the air and double backfist in full horse.....
.........xxxxxxxxxxx.............
- L. bow stance, right reverse/ping choy punch
- spinning jump to the right
- left downward punch in R. bow stance
- R. hook, L. hook
- crossing step jump to left while blocking and L. backfist in horse
- twisting horse 180 degrees L. and R. downward hits
....etc ....etc.....end

Does this still sound familiar still ?

There is a good chance my system picked up this form in the Gwongjow Chin Woo assoc. before 1950's. Did your Grandmaster of Bak Mei have any connection teaching there at all.

Lastly does your Bak Mei feature Big Buddha Palm, a slow, soft palm/poke,slap and chopping set. Lots of waist twisting and tai chi wave like blocks and movements.

Any information is most appreciated.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[brothernumber9]

I regret that I have only seen the form twice, in our branch it is a very high level form, basically once one learns this form and with our Sifu's approval they are a Sifu. However the movements you describe are very similar to what I remember as I do not know the form myself. We have a form called linh wan kow da kuen, after dynamic tension in horse stance the first three sequences are chun pow to left, single leg block, chun pow to right, is this similar? I believe we also have a fung mo kuen, I'll verify it with my sifu and classmates, the others I don't believe are in our branch but I'm no expert. The 8 diagram pole form you mention is it chun yung bagua guan? we have such a form, an excellent staff form. Here are some names of some other more common forms we learn, you can cross reference them. Dai Mm ying kuen, siu mm ying kuen, say fung kuen, dai lohan kuen, hung jay guan, double tiger, tiger-leapard, iron tendon, one arm form.

[buddhapalm]

Dear Brothernumber9,
Thanks for your reply and help.

I would appreciate it greatly if you can check on the moves with your classmates or Sifu to see if our Mang Fu Ha Sahn match.

Sorry I dont know what "chun pow" means. In my Lien Wan Kuen we:
- open
- cross hands across the body like hugging yourself almost
- slide left hand outside along right arm, right arm pulls back to R. waist position, left palm continues to hit to the left in full horse.
- left circle block
- right low swing strike to groin on left side, L Bow stance
- step with right in horse facing opposite direction and R. backfist downwards to head
- step back into L cat stance, block and left palm to heart
- step into full horse with right leg and right punch, body in line with punch..........

Does it sound like a similar Lien Wan Kuen ?

The stick we have is actually Bak Moon Gwun or 8 Door pole, I dont know if the 8-Door signifies 8 Directions or 8 styles. It is an eyebrow height pole with lots of sliding the stick from one end to the other.
- open
- go on one leg
- scoop down and go to L bow stance and R. hand poke with L hand blocking up
- fair maiden pushes the boat .....

Is your Dai Lohan Kuen a palm set ? and is it slow ?

Thanks so much

Buddhapalm

teleka@pacbell.net

[EAZ]

Originally posted by buddhapalm
EAZ,

If this set is practiced in your Bak Mei and also Hung Fut it is very interesting.

I have also seen it performed by descendants of Leong Tien Chu (taught 1920's) who taught what he called Fut Gar, but I dont think it is mainstream Fut Gar. Leong Tien Chu taught T.Y Wong (Wong Tim Yuen) who, in San Francisco taught Leo Fong and others in the 1940's- 1960's. Leo Fong wrote the book "Sil Lum Kung Fu" featuring the form Lien Wan Kuen, which I also know from my lineage.

Mang Fu Ha Sahn is also listed in "Beggar Style (Fong Yang Style ???), but I have not seen it. Black Tiger was said to have it too.

My Sifu called the double hand circular move then strike to groin - monkey grabs the peach. I dont know if thats the actual name for the move, or perhaps his humorous way to describe the move.


I could be wrong, as I may be missinterpreting your words but....

Just about all the moves sound familiar, except one of the jumps and the strike of the backhand. The only thing that seems differnet is that our version of the form is a lot shorter (as are all advanced forms of Pei Mei).

The final move to this form is a kind of sideways rip with tiger claws (if you look at the netherlands Pak Mei site http://www.petervanaartsen.demon.nl/ you will find a picture of this unders "forms " section - atleast this is my interpretation as it is a move found knowwhere else in Pei Mei to my knowledge, except his fingers and poster are slightly different from ours).

I think most people will not comment on this form here as it is very secret in all branches of Pei Mei. I have never seem it elsewhere so I have no idea if our version is like others in Pak Mei. However, it seems to have a lot in common with your description.

As food for thought: Pei Mei was brought to Vienam before 1950 by an early student of CHeung Lee Chuen who used to be....a Choy Lee Fut practioner before switching over. However this form existed before him in Pei Mei before this. Furthermore the person I learnt this from learnt directly from the Sifu that came to Vietnam, so our version, whereever it comes from, is pre 1950 if that is any help.

So either....
a) are version is the version taught by CLC at that time in Pei Mei. And apparently this form though said to be original of Pei Mei was part of the great meltioing pot of forms that particular styles toke from and modified into there own.
b) The Sifu who came to Vietnam hadlearnt a variant of the form in his Choy Lee Fut past (he was apparently already a master of teh style at that time), and brought in Choy Lee Fut elements to an original Pei Mei base.

I cannot prove either as I have yetto see another school of Pei Mei (Pak Mei) demonstrate it.

The interesting thing you add is that it is also classified as beggar style. This style was apparently learnt by CLC in his youth....

Hope this helps (and in any case you have created a new question mark in my brain to thanks - I think ;-)

All the best,

EAZ

[Tiger on Duty]

i have heard of this form in pak mei, thou we do not learn it, the storie goes that cheung lai cheun developed it and taught his cousin from dragon style and some of his external students however over time he decided that he didnt really like the form and so only some students knew it his right and left hand men nam king and my sigung chen goh wah did not know it and so we never learnt it and my master hadnt even heard of it until one of our students was chatting witha hk dragon/pak mei student from chueng lai cheuns cousin told him he also said that all the forms chueng lai cheun ever created are still taught no matter if grandmaster chueng discarded them or not. as always with pak mei how much is truth and how much is not is uncertain, but i hear it is very similiar to tiger comes out of bush/forest powerful short fist mainly tiger techniques.