"Internal," vs "External" strikes with gloves on?

[Merryprankster]

I've seen the concept of Internal and external strikes bandied about here, and have a few questions:

1. What, exactly, is the difference in effect after getting hit by one?

2. Are internal strikes typically delivered to the head? If not, why not?

3. Can you deliver an internal strike while wearing gloves? Let's assume grappling/NHB gloves as a standard...just because boxing gloves are so different from bare hand. So that's a 4-6 oz glove.

Thanks!

James

[Braden]

I think you'll find a wide variety of striking techniques in the chinese martial arts, to the extent which an 'internal/external' categorization is meaningless. Some argue that the 'engine' driving the strike can be generalized loosely to 'internal/external', but this is not the same as the strike itself, and is less pertinent to the concerns you raised.

[Satanachia]

But what is an internal strike?
And what is an external strike?

[Merryprankster]

Satanachia--

I've not a very good idea, hence the question.

A couple of people have suggested that an internal strike doesn't feel like much from a contact perspective, but makes you nauseous and dizzy and generally ill feeling for a good deal of time afterwards, and an external strike would be more like a good stiff cross or hook.

[Sam Wiley]

Internal strikes, as in Bagua, are typically delivered to chickens...it makes them explode.:p

Seriously though, I think that most people classify strikes that feel heavy or painful and that cause a lot of physical damage as external, and strikes that are not that heavy or painful and yet cause a lot of damage to the energy or nervous systems or the internal organs as internal. Sometimes, there is very little difference between the two, but generally the "internal" strikes are the ones that make you feel ill afterwards. Personally, I differentiate between the two by the method of generating power.

Internal strikes are delivered to the head. As an example, Double P'eng, from Taijiquan, is frequently used as a strike to the forehead. One hand grabs around the back of the head, and the other strikes the forehead. Rollback, also from Taiji, is often used to strike to a point just above the eye on the forehead. There are many more.

You can deliver and internal strike with gloves on. I have never hit another person with gloves on, but I would imagine the effect would be somewhat lessened. Of course, people don't walk the streets with gloves on, so we don't have to worry about whether or not the strike will be effective through gloves when it really matters.

[LEGEND]

Yeah but what if u live near the north like NYC and it's in the winter time and u get into a fight...u wearing wool gloves or something to keep warm??? Oh never mind...

[yuanfen]

Partial response to merrypranksters question-
internal and external has many different meanings. One of several different ways of distinguishing them IMO invoves the
relation between musclepower and proper ground and bone alignment-
the
latter requiring much less muscle. A true internal strike need not be limited to the fist. It can be delivered with palms, fingers, shoulders, elbows etc. Takes longer to develop than muscle power and lasts longer too. What it feels like depends on who is doing it and where it is done. In a seminar in Germany a couple of years ago-
a macho wise guy jumped Chen Xiao Wang from behind-
CXW's reflexive elbow to a point in the chest area put the guy in the hospital with out of rhytm heart fibrillations.

[Mutant]

3-yes you can deliver 'internal' strikes with gloves on.

2-you can strike anywhere with internal strike, head included.

1-it can feel like a ton of bricks hitting you, deep penetrating hurt...as opposed to hit or knocked on the surface by a pounding, internal strikes seem to blast through. they even sound sort of different when impacting. it doesnt impact the surface so much as penetrate. it can be done without impacting the surface, with the actual 'strike' delivered after contact has been established subtley.

these strikes are not limited to punches...could be palm, elbow, kick, etc.

a high-level boxer can develop a version of 'internal' striking without calling it that or classifying as such; it is all basic human physiology and energy. these are not exclusively for a tai chi master in silk pajamas, although it has been refined to a high level and different applications in cma and medicine.

internal strikes can manifest as described above, but can also be even more subtle and small in outward movement. this may cause some debate, but thats what i've experienced and learned in cma.

[Kristoffer]

If so, then give an example of a boxer who has an internal punch..? Describe how this looks please.

[yuanfen]

Kristoffer-

there was a rare moment in the ending if the second Liston-"Ali"
fight- a short little one inch type of punch and Liston went straight down. Liston was coming in.For a moment Ali had stopped dancing.Everything was just right- at that moment. many thought it was a fake. You have to slow down the film to see it.
It was a rare punch- but it can happen. Nowhere else could Ali repeat that exact moment- he depended on regular boxing power..
including speed and timing.

[Yung Apprentice]

I was under the impression that chi punches are different That internal MAs emphasise proper body mechanics, alignment, that sort of stuff. And then chi punches are taught, but not always used.

[Mutant]

I agree w/ yuanfen on that one, Mohammed Ali is an example of a boxer who could achieve this....by his own boastful admission, he could 'float like a butterfly and sting like a bee", and i don't think he was thinking 'external' and muscular power when he said that. he was describing what he could do that was decidedly different and above and beyond his peers, who where strong, yet stereotypically 'external' strikers.

And i can even recall Sugar Ray Leonard delivering strikes that appeared to have this kind of power in his prime, such as in the Leonard -vs- Haglar fight.

Remember how fluid, relaxed and explosive Ali & Leonard were with such precise form....and what i mean to point out is that its not purely internal/external or black/white, but it is attributes and methodology which can be developed....and that even a boxer's punch (reinforcing the 'gloves' point above) can have some of these attributes, much like certain 'internal' methods, in certain cases. Its not like your body goes away and you can magically make contact with your 'chi-gun' a-la mooney...your body is involved, and so there is an external element to some varying degree. And that its not 'magic' or elusive, but a part of our natural being which can be developed.

this boxing example was not my invention, but was pointed out to me by sifu qinrong yu, who knows a heck of a lot more this stuff than me.

[Fu-Pow]

My understanding is that internal punches are much more dynamic than external ones. Meaning that the punch travels throught the body like a twisting wave opening the joints as it goes along and letting the chi pass through. When you connect it is with a stretchy wave- like power not with any real muscular exertion. As you complete the punch the energy gets sucked back in to the dantien. At least that's been my experience. One time I was practicing my Taiji punch with a lot of power and it felt like electricity instantly ran down the underside of my arm. It kind of hurt. I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong or this was actually a well executed internal punch.

The major difference in terms of how it looks is that an external punch hits with the hand bones in a straight physical alignment with the shoulder and the wrist. In a internal punch the elbow is sunken down and the shoulder is relaxed.

[Merryprankster]

yuan, mutant,

I once watched a fight between two less well known boxers... it was around the 150 range.

One of the guys threw a short left hook and danced out of range. The other guy kept fighting for about 5 seconds, then dropped like a rock, clutching his stomach, looking like he was trying to keep his insides inside.

Something like that?

[David Jamieson]

mutant warrior is correct :D

peace

[Braden]

MP - I'm assuming by internal/external you're referencing the internal/external martial arts distinction. If this is correct, I'm not sure where people got the idea that internal strikes don't hurt at first. But then again, people who don't actually practice the internal arts have LOTS of wierd ideas about them... They feel like a tonne of bricks hitting you. Internal arts do have striking mechanics that aim for the internal organs to rupture them and do longterm damage, but so do the external arts.

Like Fu-Pow said, one of the overt differences you might notice is that internal alignment has elbows sunk and shoulders relaxed.

As for the original question, it's like asking 'Can you swing a stick while swivelling on the ball of your feet, as opposed to the heel?' You're asking about something that's 'further back' along the line. Both external and internal arts will have various striking mechanics related to specific surfaces and usage of the hand, some of which would be more impaired by gloves than others.

You should enable private messages. :)

[red_fists]

Hi All.

Here is the difference that I was taught.

External Punches:
Use only pure muscle power and muscle strength.
Do a lot of external damage.

Internal punches:
Verty little muscle power is used.
The power of the punch comes from the tendons,
proper Body alignement.
Energy traveling up from the Feet via waist shoulder to the Fist.
The whole Body movement, breath and balance are used to deliver a devastating strike. No damage on surface but internally it looks different.

Said that internal Martial Artist still need to learn to do the external bits first.
Internal techniques take a lot longer to learn/master and the Arts take longer to get somebody ready to fight.

Also it takes a physically strong Body to be able to do those internal exercises.

Strenght --> Softness --> Strenght/Power

Advantages:
Lesser fatique to the practicioner.
Can be done until old age or trained by phsyically inferior people without high risk of Injury.

Said that I think that all high level Martial artists tend to develop good internal power regardless of style.

Hope this helps.

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

The way that I have seen it discussed, at least on here, is something of a difference in the way the darn thing feels... an internal strike might be more like blunt trauma...

I've been hit in the stomach with a thrown 35 lb weight (victim of improper cage placement) and it didn't HURT exactly, but it made me feel queasy for a bit.

So that was more what I was searching for--something along those lines.

I do realize that what you are discussing is a difference in power generation.... I think :)

[Braden]

MP - Even within the one school of only internal art that I study, there are several striking methods, all of which feel considerably different to the recipient. Some methods give the queeziness, some methods feel like you were just hit with a sledgehammer. They all use the same basics of body movement for power generation.

They can DEFINITELY leave a mark though.

[red_fists]

Hi MP.

It also depends if you just got hit or if the Person added "Fa-Jing" (Power Discharge) to the punch.

Most internal Arts that I am aware of also don't differentiate between a strike/parry/deflect/punch it is the same movement.