Fighting, what do you do?

[EARTH DRAGON]

Last friday night I was walking out of a bar with a freind and I heard a glass break right behind our feet. My freind turned and said whats with the glass? I turned and saw 4 guys younger walking towards us, I said do you know them? he said no, the first guy replied you remember me? as he looked at my freind, we all exchanged words and I found myself realizing that we were going to have to fight even though we didnt know why or for what reason. I looked around and saw one guy pushed my freind, I looked at 2 of them and caught myself analizing how I was going to attack, I said to myself I take out this guys knee and hit the other in the throat, and then scream at the 3rd to see his reaction. I also spotted a snow shovel stuck in the snow and thought If it gets out of hand I was going to pick it up. I thought about what was going to happen and when and if I should strike, just then my freind said again whats your problem? the angry guy said you know my problem steve, my freind said who the f**k is steve he said are'nt you steve so & so my freind said no and we all walked away. I was telling my freind about what was going through my brain and realized that it could have gotten real ugly real quick. You never know who knows what in a confrontation, and I could have relly hurt these guys over a case of mistaken identity.
I just would like to know what goes on in peoples heads right before the fight? also do you think that martial artists have an unfair advantage over street fighters or non trained fighters. I have worked as a bouncer for many yeqars and seen some really bad fights and I realized that most people cant really fight, they throw wild punches and act histarical. what would be your reaction???????????????

[MightyB]

You never know what you'll do in a situation like that. It looked like you and your friend did the right thing by getting yourselves out of that situation. It's admirable because not many people have the self confidence to walk away.

Personally, I would never underestimate a streetfighter or any untrained individual. Being a martial artist doesn't make a person invincible and anything can happen in a fight. They might've had other more dangerous weapons, and they may have had other people waiting to help them if they started to get their behinds kicked. And, from what you've posted in other threads, I don't think that you're the type of person who feels comfortable hurting people which you would have been forced to do.

ED, you did the right thing,

The B

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thanks for the reassurance, I have'nt felt like fighting in a very long time. I am way beyond proving myself and have matured alot in my outlook on life but sometimes you may be forced into a situation as I felt friday night. It went beyond verbal when the guy pushed my freind and i am not the type to watch someone get beat up so I would have been forced to hurt somebody and I still didnt know why? scary feeling to visualize how you are going to take someone out as opppsed to just defending yourself. Other than bouncing which is just breaking up fights I havent been in one since I really learned how to hurt someone and that scares me. And it is always the untrained guys that have the biggest mouth. I am always worried about the guy who doesnt say anything that means he thinking.......

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Earthdragon,

it's probably different for everyone. If out numbered 2:1, best not to wait for them to make the first move - let alone letting one of them push your friend. You were probably lucky the situation diffused the way it did. Any hint of hostilities its time to go in hard.

Back in the early days when I wasn't in a wheel chair, I would have hit the nearest guy as the attention was focused on my friend. If possible, push the guy into the crowd of 3 - using him as a shield. Grab the shovel and use it like a broad sword.

Hopefully this would take out 2 guys (best of all 3), then the odds would be 2:1 in our favor. If not a swinging shovel should make them think twice about advancing.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Well thats the problem, I was thinking like that which is something I do not like doing. I am 35 years old and advacned far past the level of fighting in the streets. I felt terrible becuse I WAS thinkng way. I feel like the more you learn the less you want to use it. Untrained fighters throw wild punches and get hit a couple of times maybe a black eye or bloody lip, but trained fighters can due some severe damage. The last fight I was in I caused a mutiple compound elbow fracture. After the guy threw his punch I caught his elbow and broke it backwards I moved so quick I really didnt have time to think for if I did I would have just blocked or redirected the punch but instead I acted like a a$$ and ruined the guy for life and to top it off got sued which I probably deserved...... anyway I dont like to fight and hate to be put in the postition to have too...and it is scary for me to think like that I am all about knowing without using.....

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

EARTH DRAGON
I wasn't going to jump in on this one but I have been reading it. Your last post prompted me to respond. I feel you acted correctly AND THOUGHT correctly. I'm 47 and at the slightest hint there could be trouble I start working on a game plan. When I was a kid you went home with a black eye or fat lip. Nowadays any fight could be a matter of life or death (we're raising a nation of punks) so there's nothing wrong with mentally preparing and planning. To not do so would be foolish. The fact that you didn't jump the gun and initiate the real violence is a tribute to your training and maturity.

On a side note, I find it an interesting exercise to play the what if game whenever I'm in a crowd like at a party or such. I try to assess the fighting abilities of others based on how they move and ask myself what I would do if I had to face one or more of them. But then, I'm a avid daydreamer anyhow. :D

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Hua,

The situation that Earthdragon presented would appear that the 4 people had already jumped the gun by pushing his friend. How much ground are you prepared to give when the enemy is at the gates?

In any case getting sued you lose some money, getting killed you lose your life.

[isol8d]

Talking your way out of it, you get away scott free. Diplomacy was the right answer to the situation of mistaken identity. Analyzing the combat aspects of the situation is the right thing to do. Pulling the trigger, on the other hand, could be a rash decision. Does rigorous training in a combat martial art put more responsibility on your part? I feel it does for me. It's like carrying a loaded gun, just because you can point it and shoot it, doesn't mean you should. The ethics of training to be a chinese boxer may or may not be taught by your teachers, but I can guarntee that they were in your style at some point. As for using the shovel as a broadsword, you're bringing yourself a lot of legal troubles there. ED and his friend were just outside a bar, meaning there were probably other people in the bar. Using a shovel as a weapon would probably constitute deadly force. A four on two situation, would probably mean at the worst, you get beaten. With people in the area, the likelyhood of murder is not high. You pick up the snow shovel, and it gets a lot higher. I'd rather suffer the aches and pains of bruises and cuts, than the torture of being incarcerated for the death of a human being.

Guess that's just my twisted sense of morals.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ego_Extrodinaire
In my view the more you know the more you should be able to tolerate. The more confidant you are the longer you can wait especially if you think the situation can still be diffused. BTW, I can see why you would be quicker to fight. Your from Jersey. :D Don't take offense, I grew up there and that's what we did when things got boring. Fortunately for me I grew out of it (I think). :D

[EARTH DRAGON]

The last few posts have raised another good question....How far is to far? I always figured that arguments were just verbal, but the minute someone put their hands on you its fair game. However some people feel like its to far once a punch has been thrown. How far is too far for you ?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Earthdragon,

Rather than looking at things form a morale view point, Kung fu teaches situation awareness. In the scenario you mentioned, what if the two of you had walked on ignoring the breaking of glass behind you, or peeping out of the cornor of your eyes to see what was coming. If you could lose them in a crowd all the better.

If confronted with the 4 of them, start by telling them to calm down, keep their distance, you don't want no trouble etc. Move around, make yourselves difficult targets which lets you observe the strengths and weakness of your opposition.
Perhaps after a period of observation, the sitaution starts to desolve and both parties can go on their way.

But if it does become physical, then all gloves are off. Waiting for teir fist punch to land or allow them to grab is strategic suicide. Basically, I would have gone physical if i felt my trategic position being compromised. This may simply mean they are positioning themselves to make an attack.

There was an areal combat incident when a US jet shot down an iranian fighter because it acted aggressively, ie. intersecting its path over international waters. The US jet didn't wait for the opposition to fire a missile and resort to flares for defence. After a few evasive manuvours initiated by the US jet which were countered by the Iranaian fighter, the US pilot correctly shot it down with a missile.

I see kung fu as a weapon system and i would say 8-step mantis is a very good one. However, one would be foolish to underestimate a numerically disadvantages situation. Each of the 4 opposing parties might not be well trained, but who's to say they weren't setting you up for an ambush especially if you're not in familiar territory. I would also treat a shove coming from a member of a group of 4 a very serious situation compared to a shove from a one-on-one confrontation.

The incident in Somali is an illustration of an elite fighting force being taken down by an opposition less well trained in an ambush situation. I would say the first lesson in situation awareness is never underestimate an opponent.

What Isol8d suggested is fool hardy, the worst that could happen to you is not a few brusies, but death! No battle in history has been won by letting an opposition smash you for a while and hopeing they'll go away. Rather battles are won by making the other side suffer more than you do. That means gaining the upper hand and neutralizing the threat. If it involves using a spade to even the odds, then a spade it is!

what do you think?

[EARTH DRAGON]

Excellent point, I was triyng to walk away, I even asked the guy why he threw the glass. He didnt answer and kept walking up behind us. I have walked away from stupid people many times. I don't drink and have seen many people act stupidly when under the influence, but I can assure you that I would have kept walking until the push came then I had to stop to evealute the situation. Which was not looking real good. I also had to realize that I was with a freind and cannot predict what he was going to do . If he started fighting It would have a bad situation, I would have loved just to break them up but then I would have put myself in a voulnaralbe SP? position.

It is scary sometimes when things look like the have only one way out, and I hate being on that type of situation but sometimes they do happen even when you are wlking down the street minding your own business.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Eartdragon,

That's correct. things can trun on a dime and escalate quite quicky. In bars and such, with a ll the glass around, even an untrained person can potentialy be very dangerous. A broken bottle is just a bad as a knife

[isol8d]

"the worst that could happen to you is not a few brusies, but death!"

True.

"No battle in history has been won by letting an opposition smash you for a while and hopeing they'll go away. Rather battles are won by making the other side suffer more than you do. That means gaining the upper hand and neutralizing the threat. If it involves using a spade to even the odds, then a spade it is!"

You totally missed my point. More battles may be won by might, but wars are won by words. I'm just saying don't jump the gun and START the fight. If EarthDragon would have done as you suggest, he would have been in a fight. A 4 on 2 fight. He did not, he talked his way out, therefore he was NOT in a fight.

Getting in a fight, the worst that could happen is death, as we have pointed out.

Not getting into a fight, the worst that could happen is not death.

Therefore, by taking the foolhardy headstrong approach, you could die. By waiting the situation out until the appropriate time, you can avoid the fight altogether.

Of course, I almost always carry a weapon or two (baton & knife) on my person when I am out on the town. That also changes odds.

If one of the guys lunged at me, and I could use a spade as a weapon, sure, I would.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"You totally missed my point. More battles may be won by might, but wars are won by words. I'm just saying don't jump the gun and START the fight. If EarthDragon would have done as you suggest, he would have been in a fight. A 4 on 2 fight. He did not, he talked his way out, therefore he was NOT in a fight."

ED would not be jumping because the opponent has already made the first strike, like i pointed out before, if an opponet puts up an offensive posture and doesn't back down, the opponent is deemded to have made the first strike. I would say that the defender has every right to use reasonable force to neutralize the threat.

Yes wars are won through political dialogue supported by having a beat up opponent, be it Germany after WW1 or Japan after it had been atomized!Herein proves my point.

"Getting in a fight, the worst that could happen is death, as we have pointed out."

There are few cases where a crowd pushes you around for a while and leaves, but thats an exception then the rule. Better odds in going physical when negotiations break down. When an opponenet has made the first move, negotiations have already broken down. These are the rules of engagement.

"Not getting into a fight, the worst that could happen is not death."

If you don't hit back what's stoopping the opponenet from killing you? Maybe they'll stop out of their kindness of their heart as you're hanging on to your last breath.

"Therefore, by taking the foolhardy headstrong approach, you could die. By waiting the situation out until the appropriate time, you can avoid the fight altogether."

So how much ground are you prepared to giveup? how many punches must the opponent land on you before you decide it is time? What if when that time comes, you're not in any position physically to act - too badly damaged?

"Of course, I almost always carry a weapon or two (baton & knife) on my person when I am out on the town. That also changes odds."

That is illigal!

"If one of the guys lunged at me, and I could use a spade as a weapon, sure, I would."

That guy would reach you before you reach the spade

[Shadowboxer]

Hey Earthdragon,

Glad to hear you are OK and nothing serious occured. I would say "too far" is when you or your friend has been assaulted. I think we can all be pushed and not get hurt. A punch is a different matter. If a punch had been thrown at you or your friend, then intercept it, deflect it, warn them they are about to get seriously hurt. Luckily, for them it was a case of mistaken identity.
Wednesday night, my roomate and I returned from a couple of games of darts and beers. We walk into our place and then there is a knock at the door. One of our neighbors wants my roomate to move his car because it is in "his spot" that he never uses and because he can hear the car door when he is sleeping. We have young upstairs neigbors that play instruments until 2 in the AM several days a week. Anyway, he goes out ot move the car... minutes later I hear yelling and run out there. They are arguing and are bascially in each other's space. I begin wondering if this is going to turn into a real fight or is it just verbal. If it did I was planning what to do. Do I just push him to the ground and not seriously hurt him since he is my neighbor and this could cause more problems in the very near future? Do I let the 2 of them fight and just make sure neither gets seriously hurt for the same reason? Or do I cause serious damage? I said nothing while they argued and decided to just make him realize he was outnumbered if it came to blows. Luckily it didn't. My roomate pointed at this guy and who slapped his finger out of the way and I thought it was on but that was as physical as it got.Cars got moved and people just got called names. I guess the testosterone was running a bit high that night. Nobody got hurt.