Internal development: What does it mean?

[Fu-Pow]

There are three main internal martial arts. They all claim that if you study them your movments will become internal. What does this mean exactly? Are they internal in the same way?

[miscjinx]

The 3 Sisters – Tai Chi, Hsing-I, and Pa Kua – are internal styles and they claim to teach internal mechanics and new way of generating power. You can do aikido internally also. It is not what art you do, but how you move. If you learn internal strength and mechanics, you can do karate internally. This moving internally is the same for all the arts. If you move improperly (externally specifically), eventhough you are studying tai chi (or other) – you are doing it externally and not doing it correctly.

What does moving internally mean exactly? It is easier to show than to say and this has already been covered before on this board.

[Braden]

Are they all the same? At this point, it seems to me - no. I get very different sorts of things from circlewalking as I do from standing practice. I get again different things from the single palm change, although they seem related to the circlewalking stuff. What I've gotten from my brief exposure to one of Feng Zhiqiang's Chen Taiji form was entirely different again. It doesn't seem to me that further exposure to the taiji stuff in isolation would yield what I got from the bagua, nor vice versa. But again, my experience is VERY limited.

[les paul]

No two internal styles are the same. Much of what seperates internal styles and external is in the way that Jing is issued.

Many internal styles are also different from each other.

So your question has many answers.

What makes up the term "internal development" I would think is in the way one issues Jing(force) and the tools one uses to develope this force.

One might also include the Nei Gong and martial applications....considering many styles share these techniques

Paul Calugaru

[Chris McKinley]

If you want internal movement, just eat some Ex-Lax (is it me, or is there something twisted about marketing a chocolate laxative?) and practice the Valsalva maneuver.

[count]

Tai chi is like a rubber ball, hsing-i is like an iron ball and bagua is like a ball of string inside.;)

[blacktaoist]

MIND AND BODY ARE ONE.


PEACE. :D

[Repulsive Monkey]

Some one mentioned that internal arts suggest that they have a new way of generating power? This is rubbish, there is nothing new about internal cultivation and the forces used from it, these are the same forces that are used in nature hence the clear Taoist resonance that the 3 Internal arts have to nature.

[miscjinx]

Braden:

“Are they all the same? At this point, it seems to me - no. I get very different sorts of things from circlewalking as I do from standing practice.”

Your loosing the forest for the trees. I said the internal arts are the same because they all teach basically the same generating internal strength. I am a tai chi guy. I meet with a bagua guy. We find we are both generating internal strength the same way, the principles are the same, etc. The exact application/movement and the practices to learn how to do this are different, but what we learn is the same.

Les paul:

“What makes up the term "internal development" I would think is in the way one issues Jing(force) and the tools one uses to develope this force.”

As I said above, I find little difference in how one generates the force, the difference is only in how it is applied and the technique to develop it. What is being done to generate the force is the same in all internal martial arts – and that is just from talking with and watching tai chi, bagua, and aikidoists.

Repulsive Monkey:

“Some one mentioned that internal arts suggest that they have a new way of generating power? This is rubbish”

It is a new way of generating power than how most people (americans at least) and external martial artist generate power. Externalists use a lot of local muscle (ie their arms), body have the full body connectivity and movement, use tension, etc, etc, etc. Internal arts teach an new way to move and generate power from the norm (that I see in the US). It is not new in the idea of NEW. The context was a new way to move than the normal way or external way, not a NEWly developed way to generate power.

[Kumkuat]

develop peng jing and its manipulations of it.

[Braden]

Miscjinx - Could very well be. I simply shared my experiences. Although when you train different, it feels different internally, and the overt applications are different, I think it seems a little odd to call it the same. Although I do agree with you that they share peng as a basis for what they do.

[Daniel Madar]

Sprinting, marathons and hurdles are all running events, but training for each one will give you very different results and abilities. I think that internal arts are the same.

[red_fists]

Hi.

Here is what my Sijo answered when he was asked the same question:

"We train Tai Chi to become like a Child again, and to make us younger."

He also said:
"We train Tai Chi so that in old Age we are healthy enough to be able to enjoy those aquired Skills."

At first I didn't quiet understand what he meant, until I started to observe my little Son and watch him develop and grow.

Babies are born with little muscles, but can still generate a lot of strength, at the same time they are also very flexible(without even trying, sniff), and often sensitive to things that we are not.

As we grow up and develop, due to lifestyles and outside influences we start to loose a lot of those abilites as we are trained to use major muscle groups, start getting used to certain postures, etc, etc.
Now I see training internal as a way of trying to get back those "skills/natural abilites" that we were born with but have discarded them in favor of our Lifestyle.
Hope this was not too far off-thread.

[les paul]

Les paul:

“What makes up the term "internal development" I would think is in the way one issues Jing(force) and the tools one uses to develope this force.”

As I said above, I find little difference in how one generates the force, the difference is only in how it is applied and the technique to develop it. What is being done to generate the force is the same in all internal martial arts – and that is just from talking with and watching tai chi, bagua, and aikidoists



re: Guess again...........!

[miscjinx]

Les Paul,

Really?
Sam Wiley replied to the post in 'Power Generation in Bagua' as follows:

(NOTE: I would describe tai chi the same, and aikido only with the variation of collapsing into spirals instead of exploding. True Yang taiji is a bit more linear, but the Chen roots are very spiral).

"The Waist is an axle, the hands are revolving wheels."

This is a classic saying in Bagua, and it means that the waist must guide all movement. For instance, while you are walking the circle, your waist must drive your legs in the stepping, and when you change directions, your waist must make your body move. When you practice the form, your waist must drive all the movement. If you move one hand only, your waist must make it move.

By learning to use your waist to lead movement, you enter into the area of whole body power. Soon, your whole body will be powering movement, with your waist driving everything along, like a catalyst. Basically, the waist sends the power out along the extremities. You can achieve great power this way.

On top of this, Bagua uses a lot of torquing movements, winding the body up in great tight spirals and releasing them. It's a bit like a bomb going off. Most of the movements in Bagua are done in spirals, but there are a few that are vertically powered....
---------------------

This description sounds right to me (but so too for other internal arts). If this doesn't sound right to you, perhaps you could share what you know instead of just saying 'guess again.'

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

This is a very good question because it is the type the shakes the brain. For what it is worth, internal development, I feel, depends on intent. I say this because most Tai Chi practitioners, in the beginning, go through the choreography of a form and have no idea what they are, actually, supposed to be experiencing.

I believe "intent" plays an important role in the development of the internal. When you perform a Qigong exercise or a movement from a Tai Chi form what are you doing? Where is your mind? What are you concentrating on?

"Intent" makes the Dan Tien roll and the Chi flow. It fires you up because, more than likely, you are performing a self-defense movement. You want to overcome your opponent.

Internal development is necessary because, I believe, it strengthens the whole body. It is better than weight lifting etc.
If your vital organs are working your body is working. You don't want to be a Steve Reeves or Arnold Schwarzenagger. You want to be a "Jackie Chan". He is as strong internally as the two I just mentioned, are strong externally. Which would you rather be??? The choice is up to you.

xiaotiema

[dubj]

"This moving internally is the same for all the arts."

An art that would be intersting to do internally would be capoeira. Would the jing be the same?

[red_fists]

Hi Dubj.

I think some of the Jing could be expressed, doubt if the system could use/express all of them.
Some of the Jing seem to be solely used by the "internal" Systems.

Just my humble Opinion.

[Zantesuken]

Internal movement? Well I dunno about akido and stuff cause personall i'm kinda biased against japanese ma in general but eah like that waist as an axel quote. but don't forget power just doesn't come from the waist. it comes from the spine, kidneys, shoulders, head, knees, the bottom of the feet, and so on. the 7 stars i think that's what it's called.

[Zantesuken]

argh there's mor ehere! and to dfed****o you're basicallyr ight. internal power is basically the fusion of your intent and your chi so it goes anywhere you want and you genrate jing and stuff.

and somehow i don't think capoeria can be done internally cause it's al ot of leg muscle work but then again i could be wrong

[les paul]

It appears that others understand internal power as being the infusion of Yi, the Xing and............ I would also include your Li as a determining factor.

If all arts had the same power generation, (i.e. the hips) then they would all have the same techniques, thus being the same in all respects.


We all know that's not the case.......

Internal power isn't just movement, it's in the mind........It's in your intent and in your heart or your mental fortitude (i.e. your Li)


Paul Calugaru

[Zantesuken]

I do'nt think li would be a determing factor. other external styles do have a practise of internal stuff but it's not as powerful as internal styles. i pushing around with my grandma today who's tai chi is a lot better than mine and she wase xplaining yi and stuff.

anyways her normal push hands is pretty cool cause she's like a wall but when she pushed back she said she was gonna push with yi and i lost it then hah. time to go train some more

[Kempo Guy]

I read a good article on Tim Cartmell's site on Internal vs. External at: http://www.shenwu.com/Internal_VS_External.htm

(Maybe this link has been posted before...?)
In any event, have a read, it talks about many of the things you guys have brought up...

I also recently read "Warriors of stillness vol. 1 & 2" by Jan Diepersloot, which gave me a different perspective of internal "development". Good read as well.

Since I'm only a beginner I don't have much to share, but thought this information may be helpful for some of you...

KG

[TaiChiBob]

Internal development? hmmm.. perhaps its a two-fold experience.. one is to build a reserve of Chi, and the other is to develop a technique (or learn an existing technique) to move/control the Chi you have stored.. I think someone has hit upon a key with the description of intent.. i can practice existing techniques all day long, but.. without clear intent as to the purpose and effect of these techniques i am simply mimicking someone else's experience, not having my own "Chi experience".. If my intention is to impress others, cause needless harm to others, or any other such ego-enhancing intent, i may develop Chi, but it will be like trying to get the truth from a politician (oops, a freudian slip).
My own approach is to understand the goal, don't confuse the ritual for the result, and be sincere in my efforts... oh yeah, and don't lose valuable time and effort arguing about things that are based on opinion..
"we each climb the same mountain.. different paths, same mountain".. (see you at the top, i hope)..

[Fu-Pow]

Well I posted this a while ago and it seems I have daily revelations about Taiji and then I discover I was dead wrong.

One thing that I've done recently is increase the amount of standing meditation that I do. I've also really tried to relax more.

The effect is that I've noticed a warm feeling around my Dan Tien and it kind of feels like some kind of warm liquid is moving back and forth around in there.

When I do the "embracing the tree" posture with my hands in front of the Dan Tien and really try to relax it felt like some energy was moving back and forth between my middle fingers. This energy is in sync with the energy moving back and forth in my Dan Tien.

I'm guessing that this is "Chi."

Now the problem is that when I start the form and try to move the "Chi" out of the Dan Tien to my extremities it doesn't want go there.

I'm assuming that this is the end goal. Not sure though.

I'm not sure if "it" (the Chi) won't move because there is simply not enough of "it." Or if I'm doing the form incorrectly and this is keeping "it" from moving out.

[Zantesuken]

FU pOw! hehe it's supposedly good that ur dan tien's warm. if you start the form and the feeling dissapates i guess that means more tree hugging for you :p.

meditation builds your sensitivity and gets the chi walking so i guess the only way to get it to go with you is to get a better awareness of it. but supposedly warm dan tiens are good signs