Ground fighting in the Internal

[maoshan]

I would like too know who uses ground fighting as part of thier training? A recent seminar sparks this question.
Can you roll if thrown? Do you know how to fall? If you hit the ground, can you get up? Do you feel that ground fighting is even in the Internal at all?

[taijiquan_student]

Yes, we practice groundfighting at my school.

My teacher was a wrestler in high-school, and one of his best senior students was a high-school and college wrestler, so we have some people who know what they're doing on the ground. I think it should be noted that while their previous wrestling experience is partly why they're so good on ground, they use taiji on the ground now, not pure wrestling.

We practice falling, too. It's actually called the 'tiger's back', and is different from the judo breakfall method. It's to explain, but you pracice it against a wall. You sink down, hitting the wall with the middle/upper part of your back as you round it outward (the rounding makes sure you're not hitting right on the spine), letting out a "HA" or "HOU" sound. This strengthens your back if you are slammed into a wall, and if you are thrown on your back you just do the same but rotate it for the ground. It has other uses too, and also gives your internal organs a bit of a massage/cleansing, but it's really hard to explain correctly over the net so I'll just stop here cause you get the point.

Hope that helped a little.

[EARTH DRAGON]

We practice ground hugging footwork in mantis, though I dont consder it internal, it is fighting from a fallen postition. I think that any system should be well rounded and contain every aspect of the whole, if not I consider it only to be a style not a system.

[count]

Since we've spent so much time with shuai chaio in the past, I'd say I'm pretty well aquainted with the ground. Met it a time or twice. But most of our groundfighting is either Mantis ground fighting or Da Tang. Da Tang is what the kids play in China and I always considered it internal;)
On a more serious point, our bagua has so much grappling that knowing what to do on the ground comes naturally, but I wouldn't say there is much ground fighting in bagua. I think the objective is not to be there;)

[kungfu cowboy]

I have to agree with count that avoiding the ground is the ideal, but what happens when you get there and have zero training? Or when you trip over something and don't know how to take a fall or roll out of it? Groundwork is ignored a lot, and thats too bad, as there are some handy skills to have.

[Stacey]

how is ground hugging footwork different than just a low stance?

[blacktaoist]

I have met people that practice the internal arts for years. And most of them can't even do a basic roll out. How sad."

BaGuaZhang have many Throws and takedowns. A practitioner most know falling techniques. But many don't know because they never practice falling techniques or groundfighting.

Groundfighting skills are just as important as standing fighting skills. I have seen many internal martial artist get taking to the ground, and when on the ground they didn't know what to do." I know because I was the person to take them down.

Most internal practitiners don't even have good root or real fighting skills when fighting standing. So taking them to the ground is easy, to easy."

Maoshan you know what time it is, people love to talk, but when it is time to show they skills, few internal practitioners have any real fighting skills.

I don't know why you make a thread on groundfighting, because you know many on this internal web page don't even practice freefighting. What makes you think they even know any thing about groundfighting.

But I can be wrong......... Maybe somebody will reply back to your thread and tell you you don't need to train in ground fighting, all you need to practice is internal forms and your chi will save you my brother..........LOL

P.S. I hear you are going to do your BaGuaZhang tournament this year. Is this true? If it is why did you not tell me at my workshop? Any way we need to talk, I have a few ideas in mind, Also I have a lot of students that want to fight in the PaKuaZhang full contact competition. You should know you can't hide $hit from me....LOL Call me about 1:30am. I should be home then. I'm very happy you are going to do this if what I hear was true........Call me to night.

Peace.
:rolleyes:

[red_fists]

Hi All.

A lot of internal Master told when asked if they teach rolling and falling the following:
"No we don't, because you will not need it" in a rather unfriendly tone of voice.

Now still being a fair newbie to the internal Arts, I cannot proof nor disproof that statement.

Having studied other arts I can roll and fall and am aware of groundfighting skills. But I don't want to go there unless I REALLY have to.

OTOH, from what I have read and researched in the literature it seems to agree with them, as the practicioner should have such a skill that he can evade/nullify those attacks and punches that might take him down.
The Tai Chi Classics and Treaties talk about this level of Skill a lot. But I don't know for sure who has got them today.
In short if I get taken down, than my Tai Chi was of insufficient skill and level.
If that is the goal, than it is up to each player to reach it and not a shortcoming of the style/system if they cannot get there.

BTW, similar things are also said about some other non-Chinese internal Arts.
I know I didn't say "yes, it exist" nor "no, it doesn't", just sharing what I have heard and read.

[Shooter]

Ground-fighting and "submission" wrestling makes up at least 50% of my training outside of solo-practice. Nothing changes in terms of the 8 Gates...it's ALL Tai Chi.

In answer to your questions, moashan, yes, when people join our Fast Wrestling program, the first things they learn is ground navigation skills; how to fall, roll/recover, counter-rotate, get back to the feet, sweeps from guard, passing the guard, bridges, reversals, etc.

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

I think Bagua has a lot of ground training built in. The lower basin trains kicking and moving in just about the lowest stance possible. If one is able to fight from this posture I feel they will have a good foundation the be able to handle being are the ground.
Just a thought.

[Kumkuat]

no ground fighting. Well, there is in taiji, but it's not wrestling on the ground. It's just some attacks on the ground so you can get back on your feet as quickly as you can. No falling techniques like Judo or Aikido. You can't use falling techniques on most taiji throws anyway. Anyway, about falling, I know how to fall with my hapkido and aikido background. But it didn't do real good when Yan Gao Fei came over and threw me on my face a few times. Taiji throws has some devastating throws too it seems. Your arm might be dislocated by the time your face hits the floor.

[maoshan]

I made this post because after seeing things that I saw at your workshop it dawned apone me, how do you learn an application with out the counter? In other words, If the particular throw is being taught to you or demonstated on you, how are you not taught not fall? Every Japanese stylist I've ever met could fall, roll, ETC...
This is just plain rediculus! Every MA should know how to fall.
and the fact that there are people claiming to have yrs in the arts and they don't know what to do when the ground is rushing toward them is beyond belief. Most beginners know only the ground in the fundamental stages of fighting. After maximum 2yrs
you should be able to as they say "Roll with the punches".

Between this and the fact that after some yrs of training, in particular the Internal, they have no power or root.
Come on Man, The fight is over the first time you hit your head on the ground because you don't know how to fall.
I don't know all who, but i know that alot of people on this forum
are lying thier a$$e$ off with all the experiance they spout. all the training they do. I know for a fact that the Blacktaoist and myself train this way and a few other people that are on this forum.
How? because only those that train can know.
It's a knowledge that cannot simply be put into words, only experianced.
for those that are perpatrating their fantasy, your messing with the minds of the beginners that truly want to learn.
Have some compassion.
Not to say that I'm a master, But that is my goal. and from what i'm seeing most are playing at it.

Practice, Train, Research, Experiance
This builds true skill, not talking and imagining things

:mad: Maoshan

[count]

Groundfighting skills are just as important as standing fighting skills. I have seen many internal martial artist get taking to the ground, and when on the ground they didn't know what to do." I know because I was the person to take them down.
This is true even with people I have been training with for years. If they aren't used to being on the ground the seem to "drown" and panic. But IMO good chin na works on the ground and standing up. Besides, there is no longer that gap to close and elbows, knees and headbutts hurt alot more with the ground behind it. Blacktaoist, do you teach your students something different to fight with on the ground or is it just something in strategy you think has to be adjusted? :cool:

Every Japanese stylist I've ever met could fall, roll, ETC...rediculus! Every MA should know how to fall.
The training we do for falling is different the the falling training in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, etc... With good reasoning too. For that reason I don't see a need to look at what other "stylists" are doing. It's not as practical. But I guess if a teacher didn't learn enough of their system, they might have to supplement their program with some Aikido shoulder rolling or some Judo slapping. It's simple and effective. Fun too. But to answer your original question maoshan, the rolling in our CMA IS more internal and not only designed to protect the internal organs but even massages and conditions them.

taijiquan_student,
Your method of falling sounds the closest to what I have been taught. What do you do with your arms and hands when you hit the deck that is different from say Aikido? I like the idea of this wall training so could you elaborate on that a bit. Sounds useful! It seems to me that someone with good balance and root can have an easy time stying on their feet, but getting slammed into a wall in a dark bar or an alley or something could be quite a shock. We do some tree training in bagua and baji which helps. But I'm always sore for days after. Got any other tips besides the "HA" or "HOU" sounds.:)

[maoshan]

Peace,

What's up Count?
And by the way thanks for that e-mail.

I really don't care what kind of recovery they do. just do it!
A fighter of any kind that doesn't know what to do in a ground situation is beyond reason to me. Inparticular, the fact that most people don't know how to fight in the first place and because of that fact, most incounters end up on the ground grappling.
What about the lucky strike anyone can get off. Once off balance you have to know how to recover. I agree, we as internal stylist don't look at fighting off the ground as the norm, but i'm also a monkey stylist. I'll take you down in a second once i see your off balance. If you can't take the fall, roll with the blow, position yourself as you fall instinctivly. you have a problem with an experianced fighter with an over all ablity. I can do circles on the ground. Not that i was taught this it came out of the training. fighting people better than me who took me down and gave me the experiance i needed for real combat.

Ain't no half steppin.

Maoshan

[Internal Boxer]

I think at the highest levels of the internal arts there is no real rolling around on the ground as with Wrestling and Judo etc, but there are some interesting ground fighting techniques as demonstated by Rick Hernandez who studies Kuntao. www.improvisedcombat.com Kuntao I understand has its origins in Bagwa & hsingyi as these arts came to Indonesia and remained undiluted in their fighting spirit and applications.

To be honest all the internal arts teachers I have had do not demonstrate ground fighting as in one sense it is not a great situation to be in as if he has mates they will want to kick your head in.

But I am a firm believer in training in all outcomes, so a lot of my training does involve randori (I think thats how you spell it, in randori you just freestyle fight going with the flow and doing whatever comes natural, conseving energy, if you force it and tense up even if you are fit you will tire in no time, and they will nail your a$$) I train with 3rd Dan Judo guys. The sticking and listening they demonstate while rolling around on the ground with you his excellent, even though you are on the ground actually improves your standing grappling skills as well. I would say ground fighting with well trained grapplers is a must for everone, no matter what their style, internal or external there is so much to learn in it. By this I do not mean endless techniques, but applied free style fighting to subconscious drill and condition your body . Mao & TBT its thanks to lads like yourselves and others on this forum, that do a good job in trying to get the recognition that the internal arts deserve as fighting arts keep up the good work.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Ground hugging footwork it totally different than just doing low stances. Low stances are for building endurance, leg strength and powerful rooting. GHF is a fighting application that teaches you how do fight from a fallen position or to come in low on your opponent and work on his foundation and end up in a leg lock or ground trapping lock that allows the mantis practioner room to move arond his opponent while remaining on the attack. It has 240 different techniques although most are variations of one technique or another. We actually have some throws that you fall with your opponent and roll right into a uncounterable lock. These are considered ground fighting and low mantis applications......

[Mr. Nemo]

Maoshan and blacktaoist: You say that you practice groundfighting at your school; I'm curious about this, as I wasn't aware that bagua had any specific groundfighting. Could you elaborate on what your training is like?

Also, I'd be curious to know whether the groundfighting you practice (this is for anyone, not just blacktaoist and maoshan) involves primarily defending and try to stand up again, or if you utilize any offense while on the ground.

I'm also curious about the ground hugging stuff earth dragon is talking about. Is this "low mantis" a similar position to the open guard? What do you mean by "fallen position"?

[EARTH DRAGON]

While the lowmantis is a fighting stragety it should not be confused with wreslting or a guard or mount postion. Low mantis is ground fighting tecniques that allow the practioner an edge when fighting on the ground. 8 step is very effective and ground work is a must for a well rounded system. If you dont have ground skill you are missing a big part of all aspects of fighting. You cannot depend on always standing up when fighting for most fights go to the ground, if you find you have no experience there you will find yourself in akward territory and probably lose.

Ground hugging foot work allows you to come in very low on your opponent and use off balancing and leg locks to bring him down and then apply skills on the ground. Or if you are taken down or slip we use lowmantis to make ourselves dominate on the ground and apply various tecniques to render them helpless, some involve locking and using your body weight to break or fracture the bones and or tear the ligamnets.

We never worry about trying to stand back up from a fallen postition, this takes way to much time we have a lot of arsenal on the ground so we feel just as comfortable on the ground as we do our feet......

[shenwu disciple]

Wow,

I didn't know that Bagua had ground fighting techniques. According to Tim, Xing Yi had some ground grappling, but it was nothing compared to what the Gracies developed.

And yes, we practice Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in addtion to other internal arts.

As far as a strategy is concerned, it depends on what I'm training for and who I'm training with. If the guy is a lot bigger than me, I usually don't want to spend my time on the ground w/him in my guard. I'll either try to submit him from the guard, or sweep him and work from the top.

If I'm in some sort of grappling competition, I'll look for my opponents weakness and exploit it. Por ejemplo, if he sucks at throws, I'll try to throw him as hard and as often as I can. If his ground techs suck, I'll work for a submission from any position I can get.

If we throw in striking on the ground, then I'll try to get to a dominant position, or try to get back to my feet

[red_fists]

You cannot depend on always standing up when fighting for most fights go to the ground, if you find you have no experience there you will find yourself in akward territory and probabl

To me this sounds exactly what the Gracies/UFC/BJJ try to make everybody believe. Which seems to be a new fad in the MA Scene. Because all of a sudden every style NEEDS to have Groundfighting skill ala UFC.
You sure you didn't copy that from one of their web-Sites??

Which is contrary to what I have encountered and been taught.
Most Fights, IME, don't last long enough to go to the Ground.
A fight longer than 1~2 minutes is highly unusual.

While Groundfighting skills are needed, I don't think we need the "wrestling/Jujitsu" style skils.
Also I was taught that Ground fighting is more of a mindset than a Skill set.

Wrestling style groundfighting, Choke-Holds and Submission holds are fine in an environment where it is 1 on 1 with NO possible outside interference.
They should be trained, but not relied on to win a fight.

And when facing possible multiple attackers I want to be as little as possible on the Ground.
And today it is very possible that somebody will step into a fight and try some funny stuff.

Never mind that circumstances and surroundings might prevent a ground fight (narrow Passage, crowded Pub,etc.)

But than that is just my Opinion.

[Mr. Nemo]

Red_fist: That quote you posted was from Earth Dragon's post, not mine. Secondly, the idea that "99% of all fights go to the ground" has been largely discredited - but only the "99%" part. Fights still have an excellent chance of going to the ground, even if neither of the fighters is a trained martial artist.

Also, the "UFC" does not promote the idea that groundfighting is the only valid form of fighting. That may have been the case in the early 90's, but since then, strikers have participated and been successful in the UFC. However, all of them had some sort of grappling experience.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I think you quoted me , but anyways what I said is true and has nothing to do with bJJ or the gracies, our style has been around for a lot longer than BJJ.So ground fighting is not a fad but a real look at fighting situations But it is statistics that more than 90% of fights end up on the ground. unless you can knock out with 1 punch or it gets broken up you will almost always fall when fighting either by loss of balance or by getting tackled. If you have not experienced this you have not been in many fights. And the people that talk about ground fighting not being a real part of actual fighting are just justifying their meanes for lack of knowledge when it comes to their art not knowing.

[blacktaoist]

Count)Blacktaoist, do you teach your students something different to fight with on the ground or is it just something in strategy you think has to be adjusted?



Mr. Nemo)You say that you practice groundfighting at your school; I'm curious about this, as I wasn't aware that bagua had any specific groundfighting. Could you elaborate on what your training is like?


BT) There are many throws, takedowns and groundfighting techniques in BaGuaZhang methods. A Ba Gua pactitioner can utilize the Ba Gua movement hiding flower under leaf as a throw, takedown, elbow attacks, twist the neck throw and even a arm pit hold. Ba Gua have many grappling techniques in the form that can be adjusted to flow in any standing or groundfighting situation."

Mr. Nemo) Also, I'd be curious to know whether the groundfighting you practice (this is for anyone,


BT) Unlike most Ba Gua teachers I teach my students techniques due to their body form , structure, personality and comprehension level of each of my students. Most of my student are fighters and have been in street fights, so many of them have already establish a realistic viewpoint to fighting.

The only other method that I teach is grappling with an opponent on the ground using holds, locks, and strangles, most of this knowledge come from my judo background. I combine judo techniques with my Ba gua techniques for a better more practical form of combat whenpracticing grappling on the ground.

I hear internal martial artists say all the time the major objective is not to let your opponent take you to the ground."

What bull$hit." these are martial artists that never had a real fighting encountering." Because in a real fight no matter what style you practice internal or external the objective is to take your opponent to the ground hard." How you utilize your method to get the job done is due to your own skill level and fighting tactics and spirit.

There are many people that I have met and learn from that don't even practice the so-called internal martial arts. Many are good fighters from other systems of martial arts, their very good at bridging the gap , clinching, smothering your offensive or defense methods. And most the time I have seen them take many internal practitioners down hard to the ground, and when they were there they didn't know what to do. How sad.:(

My opinion is a internal martial artists should keep an open mind to accept and absorb the effective techniques or should I say elements of other styles and combine them with already establish tecniques, in turn it will help to bring an internal martial artists skill to a higher level and establishing realistic training goals.

I hear many internal martial artists say: perfect practice makes perfect".

But the genuine true is realistic training makes perfect practice".


Peace, practice and live long.


:D

[red_fists]

Hi Mr. Nemo and Earth Dragon.

IME, the 90% mark does not hold true.

I am talking from experience of observing and having been in Pub and Streetfights for over 15yrs.

I am a Biker and have seen plenty of fights in lots of different situations, and very few went to the Ground(less than 5%), and normally the fight was over when one Person went to the Ground knocked out or severly stunned.

Those fights were conducted by both trained and non-trained fighters.

Yes, I have learned Groundfighting Skills in a few MA that I studied.

I think ground fighting is a valuable skilll to have, but would not want to rely on it to get out of a mutiple fighter situation.
Which, IME, are the most common fights today.

I do not talk about tournament or similar fights as I have never been in any of those.

[red_fists]

Hi.

This is a serious question and not meant to be funny or anything.

Q: If 90% of all fight go to the ground, why do so many styles not emphasize that aspect of their Art, or train more to enhance those skills??

Most System I have seen and encountered:
practice takedowns,
throws
Submission/Choke holds
and finishing maneuvoers(sp.) on prone Opponents.
But few emphasize prolonged fighting from a prone or ground position.
The general attitude seems to be get your opponent down, but if you get taken down get up as fast as possible.

Now it is my belief that the founders of those system and the generations after them would have rectified any flaws in the system as soon as it became apparent.

Any toughts.

[Mr. Nemo]

I often hear the assertion than statistically 90% of all street fights go to the ground, and I've never seen the citation to back it up. In addition, almost everyone I've ever talked to (including BJJ stylists) has said that this has not been their experiece.

Now, I'm not saying fights don't go to the ground, or that ground training isn't a necessary part of a complete martial training regimen, but that the statement that "90% of all fights go to the ground" is an urban myth.

[red_fists]

Mr. Nemo.

Thanks, looks like we are on the same Page.

And effective groudfighting of course depends on a lot of factors.

One of my Sensei once answered why we don't learn moves in case we are taken down.

His answer was:
"I taught you a lot of skills and moves, it is up to you to make them work in every situation under any circumstance. "

Have a good day.

[kungfu cowboy]

No disrespect, but if you didn't learn any for the ground how CAN you make them work, since he didn't teach any skills for THAT particular situation? That seems a bad argument for not teaching what you need for a given environment. :confused:

[red_fists]

KC.

If I can kick the Opponent from a lying down Position using a snap kick, how is the kick different from a standing one??

Granted it might loose a bit in strength & effectivness.

Or will a pressure point strike or Eye poke be less effective because it comes from a "downed" Position??

What he said your defense and attacks should work regardless of you are standing, sitting, or lying down.

That is the same reason why we train 10 counters for each attack, cause there are no guarantees it will always come from the same angle, height, distance,etc.

But different styles and different teachers have different ways of training and teaching.

[EARTH DRAGON]

While I am not sure that 90% is the set in stone percentage I will atest that 7 or 8 out of 10 fights I have seen ended up on the ground. Sure there is the rare occasion that the 1 punch knock out worked but this is extremly rare. Most fights go to the ground for the main reason loss of balance, second being pulled down and third being thrown. While it is not for use in circumstances wich incorporate multiple attackers, this changes every strategy even on your feet so we can not include that in disscussion.

But as redfists says
Most System I have seen and encountered:
practice takedowns,
throws
Submission/Choke holds
and finishing maneuvoers(sp.) on prone Opponents.
But few emphasize prolonged fighting from a prone or ground position.
The general attitude seems to be get your opponent down, but if you get taken down get up as fast as possible.

Not always as I stated our system says if you fall rely on locking and breaking for it takes to much time to try to stand up and just becuse you have not trained for it doesnt mean that it is not important.
I recall learning a block in karate that is used for blocking a strike from horse back. I figured why practice this block it's not like I will get attacked from someone on a horse. Does this mean that I shouldnt practice this block or am I taking part of the style and changing it to my likeing? or what I think that will or will not happen ??????

[red_fists]

I recall learning a block in karate that is used for blocking a strike from horse back. I figured why practice this block it's not like I will get attacked from someone on a horse.

To be honest that block sounds like it could work from a kneeling or semi-kneeling Position when your Opponent is standing in about the same relation to you.
Hip at about shoulder height or just a bit higher.

Bit of modification could work from sitting as well.

Naahh, I am way of base here. :)

[maoshan]

[Maoshan and blacktaoist: You say that you practice groundfighting at your school; I'm curious about this, as I wasn't aware that bagua had any specific groundfighting. Could you elaborate on what your training is like?]

Ba-Gua doesn’t have any specific ground fighting techniques. There are countless applications in the single change palm alone. On my back I can execute the single change and snap a neck utilizing the coiling method.
All the styles of Ba-gua have a tremendous amount of throws and trips and flips ETC…
Let’s remember people, Ba-Gua is a principle and not a style of standardized
Techniques like Hung gar or mantis. Dong Hai Chuan taught Only Experts with the exception of two. His prerequisite was a strong martial background
So no, he didn’t teach ground techniques. Why should he when they were already expected to know them?
All of this about a particular rolling technique is bull$hit. You don’t know how you’re going to fall, no one does. It’s about the experience of knowing what to do when you fall. We fight free style and in that fighting we use all we were taught, from various styles. All applied with Ba-Gua’s principles.
Another point,
Ba-Gua is a multiple opponent martial art. In fighting against multiple skilled fighters don’t you think that it’s apossaibilty that you could go down?
If you don’t; you’re dreaming. There’s all ways some one better than you.
Combat is combat in all its facets. To confine your self to one aspect and think it’s the whole then you’re in for a deadly awakening.
As for Ba-Gua in particular and ground fighting? I’m selling a video right now on my site which I’ve titled “ The Baddest Ba-Gua Demo Ever” For all of you individuals that think that Ba-Gua has no ground work, on this tape, not only are there styles of ba-Gua never seen in the west, There are two old men doing ground work as part of their demo I can’t call their names as I write this but one master on the tape is Sha Gao Zhang. In fact all of the old men on this tape have passed at this time. The point is they got it from their teachers. For those interested, check out www.heavenlydivinepalm.com

What does that say about those that are asking about ground work in Ba-Gua? It says, MORE RESEARCH. Hell the same goes for Tai Chi as well as Xing-I.
And I just remembered something Cheng Ting Hua was a Shuai Chuo Master.
Come on! No ground fighting?

[Also, I'd be curious to know whether the ground fighting you practice (this is for anyone, not just blacktaoist and maoshan) involves primarily defending and try to stand up again, or if you utilize any offense while on the ground.]
See above.

Red Fist
[To me this sounds exactly what the Gracies/UFC/BJJ try to make everybody believe. Which seems to be a new fad in the MA Scene. Because all of a sudden every style NEEDS to have Ground fighting skill ala UFC.
You sure you didn't copy that from one of their web-Sites??]

I kind of agree with you, but where I’m coming from has nothing to do with the Gracies. Hell the UFC was a joke. If your level of skill is such that you don’t have to or are taken to the ground, you’re truly a master and no disrespect
I doubt that. There’s always someone better.

[Most Fights, IME, don't last long enough to go to the Ground.
A fight longer than 1~2 minutes is highly unusual.]

This is true in most cases, but what about that one guy who is your equal? It could last much longer and chances are that you are going to go down.

[While Groundfighting skills are needed, I don't think we need the "wrestling/Jujitsu" style skils.
Also I was taught that Ground fighting is more of a mindset than a Skill set.]

I totally agree, I never learned these styles and I can still roll.

[And when facing possible multiple attackers I want to be as little as possible on the Ground.]

We all share that feeling, but what if it happens? What if the guys are skilled Fighters?
[And today it is very possible that somebody will step into a fight and try some funny stuff.]

The very reason to embrace all combat methods.

[Never mind that circumstances and surroundings might prevent a ground fight (narrow Passage, crowded Pub,etc.)]

Which is what Ba-Gua is all about, adaptability.

[Q: If 90% of all fight go to the ground, why do so many styles not emphasize that aspect of their Art, or train more to enhance those skills??]

Simple, Most of the people learning Martial arts are learning from commercial schools whose instructors for the most part don’t know
True martial arts to begin with. Yeah they know the forms and some of the applications, but the true fighting? NO! And it shows. Another reason is the practitioners themselves. They might talk a good hype but they aren’t willing to go through the hardship of acquiring true martial ability. So they play it off with the hopes that someday someone won’t pull their card.

Kung Fu Cowboy
[ No disrespect, but if you didn't learn any for the ground how CAN you make them work, since he didn't teach any skills for THAT particular situation? That seems a bad argument for not teaching what you need for a given]

Excellent point

To sum up, a true fighter trains for all contingencies. When I was young, I was trying to learn all kinds of styles and one of my teachers told me, you can never learn them all but you can know about them in order to deal with them.
My experience has taught me that this is true. Just because a particular aspect is not emphasized is no excuse for not knowing about it and not being able to deal with it.

Maoshan

[Internal Boxer]

Earth Dragon & Red fist: This may seem contradictory but you are both right, for you are seeing this based on your own experience of fighting.

In the one hand it would be better not to go to ground if you can avoid it as there is often his mate wanting to kick your a$$ . But if you have never trained with a skilled grappler or say a Pancrase expert then you will find that if you ever meet someone skilled in this area you will get your a$$ kicked in the street, cause the skills the high level guys have are superb, it will be hard to get strikes in or get him off you to hit him unless you have trained with them to feel where the weaknesses are in a grappler. So do not worry about submission techniques that involve arm or leg locks too much unless they can be quickly and easily executed to break the limb. I prefer neck cranks, strangles and sleeper holds. So Red Fist go and train with a 2nd Dan Judo guy or above and it will be valuable time spent, for you will find the subconscious listening, sticking and loading skills will aid you standing grappling as well!!

[red_fists]

Hi internal Boxer.

Thanks, for your advise,.

I will go and see the local BJJ guys as soon as I got my Knee problem sorted out.

Seeya.

[taooftaichi]

I agree that without specific training in ground fighting it is likely that someone who is taken down, or falls down, will be at a major disadvantage.

(By the way, what about throwing yourself down to take the initiative as may be done in Monkey style or Drunken style Kung Fu, among others? and to take the opponent down with you)

I practice and teach ground fighting techniques, trying to stay within the confines of Tai Chi principles as much as I can. I see that in fact if one has a good foundation in principles, techniques may be applied successfully standing, sitting or laying down. The main problem would probably be the disorientation of the defender if he/she has not experienced fighting in a different plane or being forcefully thrown down.

However, one point. Whereas I understand and agree with the discussion about a complete martial art, it seems that very often these discussions end up as if someone is trying to examin what to do against a highly trained martial artist in self defense. I don't know where you guys are, but in the self defense situations I have been in (over the years quite a few, because of my travels and work) I was attacked by untrained individuals and my Tai Chi experience easily handled them. Of course, street-fighting experience can be some of the toughest and most practical around, but let's face it, it's not like you're fighting Bruce Lee!


Again, I agree you need to be well rounded in martial arts, including ground fighting experience. I try to improve my art and applications as much as I can. But I like to keep the training rooting in reality. We're not living in ancient China. Not everyone you encounter in self defense will have exceptional martial skills.

[Internal Boxer]

taooftaichi

I agree with you entirely mate, it is not likely to meet a skilled martial artist in the street. But I found it an enlighting experience how an external and extremely popular martial art like Judo has such body skills. I understand to get your black belt in Judo you have to beat 10 guys one after the other, thats why dan gradings have such skill, I just wish the same quality development was a statuatory requirement in other arts where there is a tendency to give black belts out too easily.

Having said that there is a lot of boxing gyms in my area as well as dojos. So I do not see anything wrong with training in such areas cause what I realise now is that if I did not train with these guys there would be a massive ***** in my armour if I ever had the missfortune of getting into a fight with one of them.