Sport fighting - the future of martial arts?

[Mr. Nemo]

With san shou/san da gaining popularity both in the USA and China, and with mixed martial arts slowly gaining acceptance among the general public in the US (and having essentially already gained acceptance in countries such as brazil and japan), sport fighting is bigger than ever, and sport fighters are more skilled than ever.

Cung Le's recent victory over UFC fighter Shonie Carter in a san shou match shows the mixed martial arts community what many of us had already figured out - chinese martial arts have the potential to be competitive in mixed martial arts competitions. Japanese shootboxers have already had success in mixed martial arts, and modern san da is essentially the same format.

Almost all martial arts today have a sportive aspect. Arts such as boxing and wrestling are almost purely sportive. Other arts such as brazilian jiu jitsu, judo, muay thai, karate, and tae kwon do have well-established sport sparring formats. Tae kwon do, judo, wrestling, and boxing are all olympic sports, and someday we may see olympic submission grappling and olympic sanda/sanshou.

All this background and exposition lead up to this question: should the focus of all martial arts change from self-defense to sport? Bear with me here.

First, in my opinion, "martial arts" as we know them are not a particularly effective form of self-defense. The self-defense benefit of purchasing a can of mace or a stungun are comparable to those of several years of dedicated martial arts training. The self-defense benefits of buying a gun can in theory outdistance those of an entire lifetime of martial arts training. It's often said that the most effective martial art for multiple opponents is cross country running.

Is it really a sensible investment of time, several hours a week (or more) for several years on the oft chance that you might be mugged by an unarmed man, and use your martial arts training to save yourself the $20 that was in your wallet, and the couple phone calls it takes to cancel your credit cards? Of course this is an exaggeration; my point is, self defense alone does not seem to me like a sensible reason for training martial arts.

This is not to say that self-defense is a lost cause; however, if you want to train in self-defense, your time would probably be better spent learning things like situational awareness, verbally diffusing problem situations, the sort of thing that's taught at police stations and community colleges rather than your local dojo.

The other principal application of martial arts that is unquestionably "martial" is ring fighting (or cage or mat fighting, depending). I often read that kung fu was designed for real fighting, and real life or death situations, rather than the ring. However, it is a different world today. One master challenging another will probably land in prison, rather than as a respected member of the martial arts community as was the case in China back before any of us were born.

Ring fighting, on the other hand, is legal (provided the rules are approved by legislators and all that), and is the closest thing martial artists can sensibly have to the old-school "challenge match".

This is not to say that if you don't train for ring fighting, you're useless. What I'd like to see in kung fu is increased participation in ring sports such as sanshou or koushou, and hopefully more of a focus on training for these types of events. The way I see it, we have in sportfighting a tool to gauge our own skill, and as a lens through which we can more truthfully evaluate our own arts.

[respectmankind]

MA, its true form is being fed to the dogs. Although a ring fighter might, on a personal level have purity, detachment, and intimate knowledge, the way ring fights are set up, it can not be translated, or atleast very easy.

[Mr. Nemo]

"MA, its true form is being fed to the dogs. Although a ring fighter might, on a personal level have purity, detachment, and intimate knowledge, the way ring fights are set up, it can not be translated, or atleast very easy."

I'm not sure I quite follow you. What do you consider to be the "true form" of martial arts? And what is the thing that cannot be translated?

[respectmankind]

I am just saying it is becoming more coorporate. I was not responding to what you wrote, but your topic. It is a buisness more than a art now. :(

[Nichiren]

I think I read in a Gracie BJJ book that the reason Judo practitioners won over the JJ practitioner in Japan during Kanos days was that it is more effective sparring hard with less dangerous techniques than sparring soft with "deadly" techniques.

This is why I think sport MA has a future but personally I would like to see a compromise. And I believe the compromise is there today in many MA! Real e.g. karate doesn't start until you earn the black belt.

[Ryu]

You're probably right... and it's been a careful analysis of myself that has brought me to the conclusion that I do "martial arts" for self-defense. And because my main focuses are on self-defense and the injustice of people being in danger, etc. I am gearing myself more and more for things like awareness, verbal difusing, firearm skills, knife skills, OC, etc. I'm more and more interested in how Police fight rather than how Royce does...

The one story MerryPrankster told about how one of the NHB champs was held up, and gave the guy the keys to his car or something like that really made me realize something...

My interests lie in how to protect myself and others. That doesn't always deal with hand to hand stuff.

Ryu

[SevenStar]

"I think I read in a Gracie BJJ book that the reason Judo practitioners won over the JJ practitioner in Japan during Kanos days was that it is more effective sparring hard with less dangerous techniques than sparring soft with "deadly" techniques. "

I think you're on to something. That is the reason that some schools give for not sparring. Without that element, how do they know what they're capable of? they don't until they have to use it, which is not the best time to find out. I think sporting events are a good thing, for the most part. The CMA training would have to be modified a little, but you can still keep all of the traditional elemtents. You can combine it with contemporary training methods.

I train forms for an hour a day,do stances, calisthenics and conditioning but I also shadow box, jump rope, work the bag, spar, etc. combining the training methods makes for good training, and adaptability to the ring, should you desire to step into one.

[respectmankind]

i find i train in MA for the same reasons RYU, protection of self and others, stop injustice if in my presence (my most hated of all things) but also for the mental aspects, awareness, shrewdness, tact(ics as well), many other items as well. I find although, I have a greedy reason I just recently admitted to, I have trained many years for power. Not that I did not want to genuinley help people, but just the psyche you get, for me was a large reason.

[SevenStar]

agreed Ryu, self defense nowadays involves awareness training, like looking under the car as you walk toward it and walking a few feet away from the corner of a building so you can glance around it as opposed to blindly walking passed it and risking an ambush.

[Ryu]

Of course, but if you are going to do any physical martial art skills at all, you've got to do it with hard training in mind. I agree with the "competitive" mindset. You've got to lift weights, spar, hit the bag, spar some more, etc. Drill drill drill, and drill some more. That to me is part of "reality." Regardless if you are a UFC fighter or not. I'm not, and never going to be one, but I need to work with resisting opponents.

Ryu

[SevenStar]

That's another thing though...it seems like many people today don't want hard training, they only want to go to class once or twice a week and do nothing else.

[dezhen2001]

i think you hit on a good point there Sevenstar :)

Many people nowadays only go to class once or twice a week. For 'self defence' and 'health'. It really seems more like a hobby now than anything else. How many people do you know that train every day for at least 1 or 2 hours?

To me most martial arts seem like an aerobics class or commercial fitness class - you pay your money and do a class or a couple of classes a week. That's it. There is a coach or instructor, but not really a 'teacher' in the true sense of the word. But to learn the real skill, it's something that has to be done every day! I mean most people think i am real crazy when i tell them i train for at least 2 hours every day! :D i still suck though - but i would be worse if i only trained for 4 hours a week! My Sifu gives me something each time i am in class, but it's something i have to try and work out and understand in my own time, not just in class!

just my thoughts,
david

[Merryprankster]

Mr. Nemo--

Total side note, and it takes nothing from your points. Most of us MMA types are quite fond of Cung Le and other top notch San Shou competitors. Truly badasses in the highest sense of the word.

What SevenStar and Ryu said. I find myself saying that alot.


As far as is sportfighting the future of Martial Arts... I think it's too early to tell whether this will be the primary component of MA or not. What I mean is, if you are asking whether it will be ASSUMED that when you go to an MA instructor, you are looking for sportive competition, I don't know. I think it's too early to tell that.

I do think sportive competition has the potential to improve MA quality. However, it must be embraced in some way by most factions for this to be true across the board.

Mark my words: The current sport rules of Olypmic TKD are more or less full contact, (visible shock to body, knockout is a way to win, not a penalty) and, while the lack of leg kicks and head punches) is a weakness, the emphasis on the Olympic style TKD is going to IMPROVE, not hamper the progress of TKD as a fighting art.

I'd like to respond a little to respectmankind's thoughts on the spiritual, and in NO WAY do I want anybody here to take what I have to say as a characterization of Rmankind himself. It's a general thought on a topic he touches on, but which I think is awfully important.

Here's the kicker. Martial Arts are martial. They are first and foremost that, or else they wouldn't be martial arts. The spiritual stuff is an add-on. An afterthought, or perhaps, intrinsic only because of the culture that developed it.

People seeking to gain spiritual understanding from study of the martial arts, who do not couple it with intense spiritual training, are basically dabblers--hobbyists. This is fine, if it helps you live your life, as long as you aren't fooling yourself (I've met more than one MAist who seems to equate experience with improved spiritual awakening...) In other words, if you are going to MA PRIMARILY for spiritual growth, you need to sit down and re-evaluate your schedule.

It is intensely difficult for most to attain spiritual enlightenment, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. It contains the same amount of dedication and discipline as any MA does.

I wouldn't go to seminary to learn physical combat.
I wouldn't go to a MA school to become enlightened.

Now, If you are a monk of some sort (shaolin type), then this is all you do... you eat, sleep, and breathe spirituality in your training and daily existence. But AGAIN, this is HARD WORK. It's not a some of the time thing... it's an all the time thing. Most of us can't possibly do it, or more likely, I should say, most of us won't. And even the ones who become monks aren't always considered enlightened by the end of their lives!

That doesn't make that monk superior--it makes his life different. He makes his life training and spirituality to the exclusion of other things in life. That's ok, it's his choice. How about being a father? Or a good husband? Is he better than they are? Or maybe the surgeon who saves lives daily?

Not better--different.

My only point in this is to point out how hard it is to master something, be it physical, mental, or spiritual, and that if you go to ONE thing, say the physical (martial arts) mostly for its relatively minor spiritual component, then you are deluding yourself.

Unfortunately, many people fool themselves this way.

And this is where it ties in to rmankind's comments--it's the responsibility of the instructors to explain that to potential students--that if they are looking for spiritual awakening, the Zen class meets at 1230 at the local Y every other Saturday.

[Ryu]

Great post, MerryPrankster.

[Xebsball]

I think there will be space for both sporters and selfdefensers in the future, but i think in the end people will end up doing both at he same time.

Personally i never cared for self defense. There are too much guns out there and no man can fight a gun.

Sportification for self defense can improve anyones training (like how jujutsu became judo for example), but it gives you no garanties.

Vanderlei Silva had his car hijacked. They point guns at him and say, drive. He drives till the thieves are in a empty area. They tell him to get out of the car and leave him there. Done, car gone.

There was this other NHB guy, cant remember his name. He is going out from this club. When he is going to get in the car 5 guys with sticks and stuff like that say give me the keys. Then they say something like i know where you live and stuff. So now he fears that they might show up a his house and hurt his wife and kids. So he fights them - and is beaten up badly. He was sent to the hospital, i dont know what happened later.

So now we have this.
Sport Fighting -> no garanties on a life and death sitation
Self Defense -> no garanties on a life and death sitation
Sefl Defense with Sportive aproach included -> no garanties on a life and death sitation

[ShaolinTiger00]

Can you imagine the huevos it must have taken to hijack V. Silva?
*shakes head* Humans are amazing.

[Ryu]

It doesn't take any huevos...
Cowards with guns do a lot of things. Silva couldn't do anything, and it's that point that has always angered me about reality.

Glock fu is superior.

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

Liked this thread and the tack it was taking.

TTT go******!!!