Power Generation in Bagua

[jon]

Hi everyone, Im a five year student of Hung Ga and have just recently started training under a very skilled sifu in Bagua. Im planning to stick with both styles but obviously keep the practice seperate and not attempt to mix the skills untill im ready.
I have only had a few lessons [detailed ones though] and already i have noticed there is a lot more in the back and spine and kidneys in terms of power generation.
Is there a chance someone who understands Bagua well could tell me a bit about the powerchain for the system and how it expresses force. Im just wanting to compare with my Hung training which uses a lot more pushing though the floor and moving the back as solid unit.
Any replies would be greatly appreciated.

[Sam Wiley]

"The Waist is an axle, the hands are revolving wheels."

This is a classic saying in Bagua, and it means that the waist must guide all movement. For instance, while you are walking the circle, your waist must drive your legs in the stepping, and when you change directions, your waist must make your body move. When you practice the form, your waist must drive all the movement. If you move one hand only, your waist must make it move.

By learning to use your waist to lead movement, you enter into the area of whole body power. Soon, your whole body will be powering movement, with your waist driving everything along, like a catalyst. Basically, the waist sends the power out along the extremities. You can achieve great power this way.

On top of this, Bagua uses a lot of torquing movements, winding the body up in great tight spirals and releasing them. It's a bit like a bomb going off. Most of the movements in Bagua are done in spirals, but there are a few that are vertically powered, a bit like Xingyi (at least in my style, I can't speak for all of them).

Hung Gar is a great style. I would imagine that it and Bagua would make a great combo once you reach a time when they both come naturally to you.

[jon]

Thanks a lot for your reply, there doesnt seem to be many other Bagua players willing to talk about there system here which is a shame.
I actualy experienced a bit of what your talking about today, there is a lot of waist movement and your also very correct about the waist and spine leading the movement.
Thanks a lot for your reply Sam and please if anyone else can tell me a bit about there powerchain i would appreciate it.
Plus if anyone has come from a Shaolin based art into an internal one i would also be interested in hearing the experiences.

[count]

Sams post was very good. Stick to the songs and you'll get it all. Look around, there are bits and pieces of what you are asking in every bagua thread. Do you have a more specific question???

[Sam Wiley]

Jon,
If you haven't been introduced to the songs or "classics" as I call them yet, you can find them in Liang Shou-yu's and Yang Jwing-ming's book Baguazhang: Emei Baguazhang . They present some pretty good translations, and even provide the original Chinese for those who read it so they can make their own decisions based on the original text. You might even find some extra applications that your teacher doesn't teach you for osme moves, as well as some pretty good training methods. Erle Montaigue has a book in PDF format on his site called Internal Gung-fu Volume 1: Qi , in which he presents the classics of Sun Lu-tang and Chiang Jung-chiao (which are also in Yang and Liang's book) with his own interpretations. Both books talk about the 8 palms, circle walking, change, etc. Neither really talks about power generation because that's something a flesh and blood teacher must show you. There are several other good books out there on Bagua. You'll probably be able to find them at a good book store.

I found that proper power came after a couple years of dedicated and proper practice. By the time I learned that I was supposed to be doing these things, I already was. I guess that's the beauty of a Taoist art.;)

One reason that some people are loathe to give up information on correct practice is to see if you have instinctively begun to practice correctly. We don't want to tell you about certain things because then you'll start looking for them and they might not come about. I know that sounds a bit harsh, but if you just keep practicing every little wrinkle will iron itself out, I promise.

As Sun Lu-tang was fond of telling his students, the most important secret to skill in the martial arts is...practice.:)

[jon]

count
I posted a bit before i really looked around properly, your right there is quite a lot of information around i was just being lazy i guess. I dont have any specific questions more just interested in others experiences with the art and how they view powerchain in it.
By powerchain i just mean how you generate force.

Sam Wiley
I just got the songs-classics today:D Seems like i got a bit of study to do but i was ammazed to see most of my questions are answered in that! I wish Hung had something like that actualy now. I also got the Tai Chi Trestie by Chang San Fung and a whole bunch of other cool stuff.
I know what you mean about experiencing it for myself, i guess i need to just let what happens happens and experience it for myself. My sifu also showed me some kicking skills which i was very impressed with i had no idea there was such kicking potencial within the style.
Anyway thanks for the replies so far and anyone else please feel free to add there views and experiences.

[count]

Actually Sam,
There are no GOOD translations of the songs. In fact, even in the original book by Li Zi Ming in Chinese, many of the characters are inaccurate. Probably some of the scholars who wrote what he told them made mistakes. Nothing beats the direct transmission from a teacher who knows. I did not read any version until after several years of training and when I did get some good translation of the songs from my teacher, I realized it was only what he had been telling me all this time. It's like Master Hsu would tell me when I asked about good books. He would always say "go to the mountain"

Jon,
Power generation can be found in many flavors in bagua. Horizontal, vertical, oblique etc., etc. You can bow and snap the spine, you can wind and unwind. The best advice I can give a serious beginner is twist until you can twist no more. And than twist some more. Once you are wound let yourself unwind. Let your kua relax during your training. With correct form you will reach the maximum open/close . Keep your knees together as you move and twist inward. You must spend your time on the circle (or square) until you get it. The main power chain in bagua is called "Lo Chuan". It is a spiral that can best be described like a snails shell shape. Just keep everything moving in and out of this spiral continuously. Bagua is constant, continuous change. Hope this gets you going.

[Sam Wiley]

Count,
I didn't read any of the songs until I'd been practicing for several years, myself. I did not know that there were mistakes in the original, but I guess if he was dictating to someone who did not really practice the art, then there are bound to be mistakes. But you're right, there's nothing like transmission rom a teacher.

Jon,
A lot of Bagua people nowadays like to study the I-Ching and a couple of other philosophical works and find similarities to Bagua in them. They say it helps them to understand Bagua better. After a little while, you might want to look into it and see what you can draw from such study.

[shaolinboxer]

"Plus if anyone has come from a Shaolin based art into an internal one i would also be interested in hearing the experiences."

I have gone from studying with Shi Yan Ming (USA Shaolin Temple) to studying aikido.

What is it you are interested to know?

I can say that the knowledge of dynamic spirited attack I got from shaolin has helped me better understand the weak points of my aikido.