Secrets of the Art

[Dr. Feelgood]

I have read that secrets, hidden techniques are traditionally with held from students until the Shifu feels the student is worthy, has demonstrated dedication, good character, and is able to be trusted.

Has anyone been "taken into the temple" by their Shifu? How did it happen? Did Shifu one day out of the blue come over and say "I am going to teach you this but you must not tell the other". Did Shifu invite you to secret one on one training? Lastly, did the "secrets" explain my things that you had practiced but did not know why? (Im thinking here about when I watch Shifu do the form there are sooooo many subtle hand and body movements)

[red_fists]

Hi.

I think that those "secrets" are a myth.

A lot of arts have more stuff than is taught to each System and only new Lineage Holders get everything.

Some styles teach certain forms only to Students who suits that form.
I.e.: Not all Students fit all Animals.

So I don't think that there are secrets or hidden techniques, but simply skills you have not learned yet or are not ready yet to receive.

Your sifu would do you a disservice by teaching you Skills that you are not yet ready for.

But than I feel it is up to the students to earn those skills by being the best Student that they can be.
But than that is just my opinion and carries no weight at all.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Some secrets are certainly not myth at all. It is reasonable to believe to a certain degree that a teacher will withold information from a student until they are ready to fully comprehend it. This notion holds in line and kind of backs up the classics when they talk about not giving up the near order to strive for the far. Some students at an early stage would be undable to grasp let only practice some advanced aspects of internal methodology therefore, some teachers will not bother to even mention it until they approach that level in their practice. Until then I have reason to believe that this practice still sometimes go on with traditional/genuine lineages of some Taiji styles./schools.

[Water Dragon]

There are no secrets. Sometimes, you're just not ready for the next level yet.

[origenx]

I'm sure most will be learning more advanced and/or dangerous techniques at higher levels.

These obviously wouldn't be taught at lower levels because beginners wouldn't be skilled enough to pick them up, or careful enough to use them responsibly. So it would be both pointless and irresponsible for the sifu to teach them to students who aren't ready or prepared for them.

[Esteban]

Hi,

imho, the "secret" *is* the martial art. The question is really "Who is considered a *student.* Once someome is accepted as a true student, then there's no point to holding anything back. In fact, it's just the opposite, ime. It's more as if the teacher is giving away "shortcuts." Of course, this doesn't mean "less practice"; it means that someone is told exactly what to practice. And, it's often the case that the "shortcut" is given *because* someone has demonstrated that he's worthy to be taught. Once that's demonstrated though, nothing should be held back. It's an old saying: "martial arts go from the complicated to the simple."

Respects,
Esteban

[Water Dragon]

Great post Esteban. Do you think it's possible that you are considered a student from the start? Maybe you just need to put the time into the basics so you can develop your "Gong Fu Body". Of course, the body will be determined by the art, but once you get that, the actual techniques come fairly easy.

[shaolinboxer]

The secret of kung fu is that you must figure out all of the secrets for yourself.

[Esteban]

Hi Water Dragon, Shaolinboxer,

In a way, I agree totally with Shaolinboxer's point. No one can understand something for you; the art has to be made your own, and you're the only one who can accomplish that. Teacher's can only be "fingers pointing the way." That's true. But, I was addressing what Water Dragon implies. Paying someone does not make one that person's student. The reasons someone is teaching you his art is, to me, as important as what he's teaching. We hear on this board all the time that some people are just being taught "health exercises." I don't know. I do know that a parent who is an expert martial artist will generally want his children to learn. The reasons why these family members often seem to be better is because of the student-teacher relationship, not because of the genes. So, just because one attends a class does not necessarily mean that one is learning everything. Much depends on the individual's talent, intelligence, perserverance, or what is sometimes called "righteousness." Anyway, "a word to the wise is sufficient."

Respects,
Esteban

My sifu's sifu withheld a lot of teaching from my sifu and his classmates in China, as that was the "traditional" way of doing things.

However, my sifu chose to show me the "real stuff" right from the get go. We decided that it would actually be hazardous to my health NOT to show a lot of the subtle nuances that make the style the style.

There are more advanced techniques that are withheld from me not because my sifu is testing me, but because I physically can't handle them. Our breath control is something that's taking me a long time to develop - rushing it would only hurt me internally.

When I open my school, I'll try not to hold anything back. But I won't teach techniques that'll hurt inexperienced beginners either.

[taooftaichi]

If we look at secrets as information that is not yet available to us, yes there are countless secrets in Tai Chi or any other field.

We should certainly expect that a qualified teacher will provide a student, when at the appropriate physical or psychological level, with the necessary information to continue their development.

Sometimes it is difficult for the student, especially at the beginning, to understand the teacher's perspective. Students may ask me to teach the next movement, technique, etc. before I judge they are ready for that step. I usually try to present my view so that they know I am not withholding information unreasonably.

I have had Tai Chi instructors who gave certain information only in private classes. They may also have had "closed" classes where only the members of that class were allowed to be present, no visitors or spectators. This was not to keep the information secret, rather it was to avoid a casual visitor from getting the wrong idea about Tai Chi or our training.

(ie I once had a visitor comment about a sparring class mentioning that I was "wide open" to any jab to my face. He did not realize, even though I tried to explain, that I was holding that position to make it easier for my student (who had just started to learn sparring) to see openings and take advantage. In the end it was necessary for me to "demonstrate" on him to clarify my training methods.)

What I may do, on occasion, is to give some small piece of information to a student I feel is ready and is showing promise to see what the person does with that information. How he/she responds will determine when I may provide additional guidance.

I think all teachers, at some time, "test" their students to determine when to move to the next level.

[taijiquan_student]

One of the most important things in MA training is you can't expect the teacher to suddenly give you the "secrets", and always be telling you everything. You need to find things out for yourself.

On the other hand, it is a fact of TCMA history that virtually all styles had "secret", or closed door systems/forms/techniques, etc. This is just a plain and simple fact of history. It's the way it was. In almost all martial arts (there's usually an exception to the rule in most cases) there was a public style, and a family/closed-door style. If you were a family member, or a disciple student, you would be given much more by the teacher than the regular public students.

[red_fists]

Hi TS.

Let me continue with a thought that occured to me.

So I study under a Chinese Master, but don't become a disciple. So I only learn a bit of the System.

Am I still allowed to open a Kwoon and teach the limited Version??
Aaah, forgot now I need to form a closed Door and inner style only to pass onto some Students and my Family.

And the style gets smaller and smaller down the Years. Naah, don't think so.
Put the Comics away.

Or could it be that in order to become an Instructor you need to become a disciple(Advanced Student).

In my style we have 2 types of Instruction:
1.) General that everybody gets.
2.) Advanced that People that want to become Instructors or study further after the standard class.
This is only taught by the Head of the Style, and only if you apply.
But anybody finishing the standard education can get into it.
The Key is finishing the standard training.

And I have found this to be true in all the styles that I have trained.
And yes, we are aware of the advanced Class from the word go in those styles.

I think most westerners suffer from too much ego and misunderstand "closed doors " and such.
Or could it be that the so called "secret" Skills might be Qi-Gong that is not apparent when observing a training class?

Just some thoughts, from a Person living in Asia.

[Daniel Madar]

There are indeed public and private forms of many systems. I think it's an undeniable fact.

To me, though, the difference between a student and a disciple is not the secret form.

To me, even the public forms require a huge amount of attention to detail and repetitious practice to do it correctly. A student can see the "correct way" a thousand times, and be corrected a thousand, and still make the same mistakes.

A disciple will be corrected once, and be able to correct 10 more errors with that one correction.

In the "secret" forms I've had the opportunity to see, the differences between the forms are significant, but subtle. What is the point of a teacher giving these small changes out to students upon whom they will be lost?

10,000 carp will try, but only one will enter the gate to become a dragon.

[red_fists]

Hi Daniel.

No doubt there are advanced forms that are only taught to skilled students.

What gets me. Why the labels of:
1.) Closed Doors
2.) Inner sanctum
3.) Disciples
4.) Hidden Forms

Sorry, but that sounds like a huge money making machine or plenty of ego boosting to me.

If those were so secret how came that everybody seems to know or have heard of them.

Yes, I have also gotten some exercises that were not given to my fellow students. But when I asked Sifu she simply said because Iwas ready for them and the would benefit me.
Does that make me a "disciple".
Other Students don't exercise as much outside the Kwoon as me and some others do.
Naturally Sifu pays more attention to our questions, as we naturally dicsover more flaws in our forms than other Students.

Does that make me a disciple?
I think those tersm above have to do with a lot of ego, more than aythig else. I learned something that others have not, etc, etc, blah, lah, blah.
I was appraoched by a Student that left my Kwoon and was asked how come I can do the Sword when none in her class ever learned it.

My replywas:
"You left before Sifu had a chance to teach you."

So did I learn a hidden from there??

Seeya.

P.S.:Daniel, pm me I got some Info for you. Some good news and maybe some bad news

[Daniel Madar]

your email didn't work. Hit me at zharoff@hotmail.com

I think the term disciple is being confused here, and perhaps it's my fault.

All I'm saying is that it's clear there are advanced exercises and forms. If a teacher choses to keep them "secret" or in the family, that's his/her right. It's been known to happen, and there's no denying that.

The other point I'm trying to make is that no amount of being nice is going to make you a disciple. If you want to be one, it takes hard work and skill and your teacher still makes the call. But there are students to this day who are designated heirs to a style, or disciples of masters. If a teacher has a secret form, obviously the disciples the one to learn it. If the teacher doesn't have a secret form, the disciple merely stands higher amongst the other students as the one to carry the banner forward on the grounds of their own hard work.

So, are you a disciple? You may be one day. Stick with it.

The issue of abuse of the terms secret, closed door, and disciple for marketing purposes are entirely separate in my mind.

[taijiquan_student]

Hi red_fists.

"And the style gets smaller and smaller down the Years. Naah, don't think so. Put the Comics away."

Look at what happened with taiji...

"What gets me. Why the labels of:
1.) Closed Doors
2.) Inner sanctum
3.) Disciples
4.) Hidden Forms

Sorry, but that sounds like a huge money making machine or plenty of ego boosting to me."

This is not some modern money-making idea. It is the way it has been in China for hundreds of years. Yes, there actually were closed door students who learned different forms from the general public students. I can't tell you WHY the labels are there, just that they are, have been for a loooong time, and are not an ego-boosting mckwoon-scam invention.

"Does that make me a disciple?"

I don't know. Are you initiated as one, or are you considered a disciple student by your teacher?

"So did I learn a hidden from there?? "

It's not technically a "hidden" form if everyone who reaches a certain level learns it. A hidden, or "mi chuan" (hidden/secret tradition) form is one taught only to family members, or to trustworthy disciple students. A teacher would rarely have more than a few disciples, sometimes only one to carry on the lineage.

Respectfully,
--t.s.

[prana]

Originally posted by origenx

Good to see you are back ere !

[red_fists]

Look at what happened with taiji...


Do you have proof of that??


It is the way it has been in China for hundreds of years. Yes, there actually were closed door students who learned different forms from the general public students.


Again please, furbish me with details where I can verify that fact.

And pls, no "my Sifu said..", "Or in my Style.. " .

I want preferably authentic historical non-style related documents that state such a fact.



I don't know. Are you initiated as one, or are you considered a disciple student by your teacher?

Nah, he sez he doesn't run a Cult.
No Disciples here, sorry mate.



It's not technically a "hidden" form if everyone who reaches a certain level learns it. A hidden, or "mi chuan" (hidden/secret tradition) form is one taught only to family members, or to trustworthy disciple students.


And what if there are no Family Members or trustworthy disciple students around.Will those hidden skills simply fade away with the demise of the Master??

Sorry, I still do not buy into that.
It sounds way too much of a western concept to suit the Asian mindset.

YES, Family members and advanced students will get better training and more intense instructions.

Again, pls, provide proof of those statements and facts that you state.

Peacefully

[Daniel Madar]

Peter, you live in Japan. Think of disciples as guys who receive Menkyo in traditional Koryu. How is this so different?

Actually, I think the trend today is to open up alot of the secret teachings. For years Mah Liu Liang taught the fast form secretly to his top students. It was not publicly revealed until 1980, and now many people seem to know it. Early on though, it was only taught to disciples. This is fairly well documented.

It is also heavily denied by the Hong Kong and Beijing Wu schools who said Mah made it up to lend legitimacy to his claim of being the sole inheritor of the system. Though if that were true, why did he teach people far in advance of revealing it publicly in 1980?

My teacher is a throwback in that regard. She's STILL pretty secretive. She knows the fast form, but doesn't teach it. Heck, she's only taught the Wu Jianquan form twice in ten years. She's never taught the fast form, yet...

I think that's a fairly good example. I can research it if you want, but it should be easy to confirm, and it's dinner time for me.

:)

Drop me a line at zharoff@hotmail.com

[red_fists]

Hi Daniel.

Granted I see your point.

But "Menkyo" is a Instructor licence.

The "Menkyo Kaiden" is the "Full Transmission" licence, after which you can than go out and create your own system or make changes to the current one.

The "Densho Scrolls" are the proof of being the Head of the style, this scrolls normally contain the full knowledge of the System and are only passed onto the next "Soke" or Lineage Holder.
As far as I know the TCMA didn't follow this System of Skill/style transmission.

But anyhuh, time to break out the Lunch.

[Daniel Madar]

Chinese system is different because in Japan MA were a lot more respectable. Having a clearly defined system was important because running a ryuha was often times a financial as well as martial enterprise. The Yagyu made quite a tidy living off teaching the Tokugawa for example.

Chinese systems are different because MA was not the sole domain of the wealthy upperclass. MA's were often but not always members of criminal organizations or acted as bodyguards. Prevalent wisdom--which I have no basis to judge either way--states that literacy was relatively uncommon amongst martial artists in china, so a written record like the the Menkyo system seems to be unlikely.

Hope that helps.

Like I said, check out the Wu style background, I think it's a pretty good example.

BTW, thanks for typing out the whole menkyo vs menkyo kaiden thing. I knew it, but I only mentioned it as a point to help you for reference. I didn't think about others who might not have been familiar with it. My bad.