Question for Wing Chun players

[Ray Pina]

Not a troll, curious:

What is the hardest this you have ever succesfully (no damage to fingers) bieled?

[black and blue]

EF,

Please rephrase... this question makes no sense. Repost, sir, repost...

:)

[NafAnal]

Just a guess but i imagine he means finger jabbed...

[red5angel]

EF, if you are referring to jabbing fingers then after some conditioning you should be able to jab as hard as you punch. This takes some patience to reach but isnt impossible by any means.

[Ray Pina]

So what is the hardest object you have ever biued: punching bag, wood, brick, side of beef?

What can the Wing Chun player's finger handle? How do you test it? Develop it?

[red5angel]

Its all relative, like anything else in the martial arts. I use my sandbags, when I do punching I also do jabbing. I dont need to do anymore. If you wanted some sort of Dim Mak super death jab then I suppose you could go around jabbing rocks, cars, your freinds skull etc.....
Thats how you develope it, start small and work your way up.

[Ray Pina]

I used to hit beans when I was also doing iron palm. I used to claw them and spike them with fingers but I have never hit anything solid with my fongers, I prefer the palm or fist, I don't trust the fingers. Break a finger and you'll have a hell of a time fighting. Also, I don;t think the eyes are as easy to hit or penetrate as many people believe.

My wing chun friends are always talking about the biu ji, but I'm not sure any of them have ever struck anything but the air with it. Wanted to know if there are some players out thete striking solid object with it, have tested it.

[red5angel]

I have never hit a person with it, so I am not sure if it "works" but much like a fist, I can assume it would hurt, especially if I were accurate!
I started by standing in front of the sand bag, and each day hitting just a little harder. My theory on the jab is that it is used for all the soft bits and so doesnt need a lot of conditioning, just a little. I dont plan on using it much either but better to be prepared.
Are you still having issues with WC EF?

[hunt1]

Bui is to be used against soft targets,throat ,armpit,solar plexus,temple ,etc.Special conditioning is not necessary to strike these areas.It should be noted that the intended striking areas could all result in serious if not fatal consequences.

Most bui stikes flow from a control move such as lop sau.The reason is that the targets tend to be small and are difficult to hit unless the stiking area has been slowed or stabilized.

Yes i have used these stikes.

[black and blue]

Strike hard with soft and soft with hard, EF.

No point using finger jabs to rock hard bone... if we did, fingers would be ruined and no-one would be typing on this forum.

:)

[Ray Pina]

No red, I'm not having any problems with Wing Chu, just curious. I like to see what others are doing out there, what they are capable of. I apreciate your comments and honesty.

I like that you said you hit the sand bag everyday and didn't tell me you were beuing cinder blocks. I aprecaite that, and I would think your method is the proper method.

Best of luck to you and your training. I can see how that can be a penetrating strike if hitting the throat, not so sure about the eyes: small moveable target and stronger than some think. BUT, the right strike on the right day can put anyone down.

Thanks guys.
Ray

[Kuen]

I've thrusted through a brick before to entertain the neighbor's kids. I conditioned my fingers by doing push ups on them and striking the wall bag which we fill with pea gravel.

[yuanfen]

Evolution fist-
you are not in wing chun- why do you ask about finger work?
Most folks are not advanced enough in understanding the biu gee form. Merely hitting bags and surfaces is not enough to understand the role of the biu motions. Your question about how hard a surface can be hit etc wont give you an idea about good usage of the motions.

[Ray Pina]

I understand the motion actualy, I have studied Wing Chun. I also know that as the beu is being raised to hit me from a top position, I can raise from below and actually beu myself if I wanted to, though again, I prefer the palm.

What I wanted to know is how devestating this blow can be. I hear a lot of talk about this strike, but I wonder how many have the ability to pierce bricks like the gentleman above. The eyes are a hard target to hit, being that the head is mobile, and, the skull is quite hard, especially the top half if one misses. A jammed finger is not a bonus in a fight.

I know a lot of wing chun guys, but I don't know many, if any, who would thrust even into a man's chest with his fingers. I know its the throat that is being aimed for, but the person will not just stand there. Can the fingers take a counter blow, a double handed shielding/counter-attack?

You sound comfortable with this method, in your opinion, what percentage of wing chun players, mediocre and above, share this skill?

[black and blue]

The motions relate to sweeping the fingers across the eyes, rather than simply stabbing in?

Is this right?

This is something I heard - I'm yet to learn the third form.

[yuanfen]

black and blue- on finger work. As I mentioned before without learning the biu jee well and "shaping" the body for serious biu work best to stick with fists, palms etc. The delivery, the instrument and the stucture all have to be in harmony. Simple imitation of Bruce Lee finger jab wont work and you can get your fingers broken. In my judgement wing chun hand work is unexcelled and the fingers are part of the hand--you have to train the fingers to work together and there are quite a few finger formations. Finger work is not for jabbing at eyes at boxing distance, can be more readily blocked- it is for very very close quarters work....closer than boxing.
Sweeping across is too superficial. Sweeping in is often better.
Fingers are also useful for qinna work when the right motions are developed.

[Ray Pina]

Interesting.

[red5angel]

Hey EvolutionFist, I think I have to agree with Yuanfen, besides he has much much much more experience then I!!!
I think he has an important point though. There is a lot of Wing chun out there. not all of it is good, the sad thing may be that most of it is bad.
I think the problem is because WC is suffering from the same diseases that Karate and Taekwando have suffered as of late, too many people claiming to know it. some of these people have some extensive training, but most havent had more then a few years, or are off doingt thier own thing without really understanding what it is they are supposed to be doing. WC is a subtle art, there are nuances that take some time and some attention to be discovered and understood.
We had a seminar recently and had a good cross section of the WC schools in my area. The guy who came to give the seminar could have wiped anyone in the room all over it, no problem. The difference between him and th erest of us? He had pretty much dedicated his last 12 years to WC (With priot experience in karate and Taiji), he had studied it intensely and not only that he practiced it a lot. he had come to understand the things that even some of the sifu around here dont understand.
Biu Jee I see miysticized a lot because it is the third and final form of WC. Alot of people seem to miss that it has some great tools, but the most important form is the first. Its sort of like building a house, the first form is the foundation and all the rooms you need to have a house, without it, you do not have wingchun. the second and third forms are just expanding the house itself. they are important, but the first form is the most important.
Not only that but you have to understand the concepts inherent in the system, like any other art. If you dont, you wont have it.
At the seminar, my old sifu, very athletic, in good shape, old kickboxer, used 'his' wingchun against the guy teaching. He couldnt hold a candle to him, too tense, too reactive, movement too wide open, no root, bad footwork. It looked good, and against a beginner he would probably not have a problem winning. But he didnt get it.

[Ray Pina]

Agreed.

[red5angel]

I know in the past you have had issues with WC. For me there is a lot to WCs' simplicity. alot of people use the anology, probably for other martial arts as well, but WC, to me, is like chess in a lot of ways. Its easy to teach someone the movements, forms, etc, even the principles. You could probably teach someone in a month everything about wc on the outside. But like chess, once you learn how to move the pieces, you have to learn the startegems, the combinations, the subtle way each and every piece becomes a part of the whole.
I believe it to be extremely effective, if used correctly. I hae seen a few martial arts performed, and some performed well, but none have ever convinced me like WC that they are as effective and as logical as WC. This isnt to say I do not think other styles are effective, just not for me.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with you. My problem with Wing Chun, and its not like I really have a problem with it and go around harboring some anomosity, just that I know a lot of WC guys, is, like in chess, one wasted move will cost you the game.

I believe Fuk Sau and Tan Sau are strategically wasteful because they do not accomplish enough. The do accomplish something, but not enough. Point being, you are trying to get a position that is not nessesary an advantage if you waste your movment just to get that position.

I think Fuk Sau should be attacking the attack, slipping outside, then continuing the attack with a focus on the lowered elbow to maintain control. Tan sau attacking the attack, slipping inside and then continuing the ttack. Maybe at a higher level it is this way.

Anyway, these are just things I think about, and like someone said above, its not Wing Chun, its that there is a lot of bad Wing Chun out there, as in many styles. So, I guess I shouldn't say Wing Chun can be wasteful, just that some WC practitioners are wasteful.

[yuanfen]

Dear Evolution fist_ some of your points are well taken- others involve some misunderstanding of wing chun. I dont blame you for that. I was accused on another thread by non wing chunners of "dissing" some wing chun teachers- not true.Non wing chunners by "watching" some wing chun dont often understand where the real art is. But, as taichi has been for a while wing chun has become too popular too fast and lots of folks dont understand the art deeply, dont devote themselves to sustained
instruction and development and dont understand the meaning of the motions. You mention fok sao and tan sao. They are NOT
'techniques"- they are families of highly refined motions. Just as without proper polishing and learning of swordsmanship- a sword is justa piece of metal- to some extent that holds for the forging,
polishing and understanding the balance and motions of tan sao and fok sao. With the right wing chun timing one quick move of fok or tan or bong can simultaneisly defend and attack- not two moves.
Nothing wasted.

[red5angel]

EF, I also think that if you are wasting movement, you are not doing WC! Really, at higher levels WC should flow, like you always hear, you should stick to your opponent.
Although Yuanfen has a better understanding of tansao, fuksao, I do understand that thier usesfulness is not glaringly obvious, especially if you look at the form. Just looking doesnt get you anywhere. Studying it will reveal the secrets!
I look at it this way. I felt the same way you did about fuk sao for a time, I couldnt understand its use at all. I have since then seen some pretty good uses of it, no energy or motion wasted. Wing Chun was designed ot be direct, to the point, no energy wasted. If you see something that is goin against that idea, I would say one of two things, respectfully of course, you are either not seeing it right, or you are not understanding it right.
Like I said, WC is complex, there are a lot of things that many people dont understand, like soft power, or sticking to your opponent, or sensitivity. Even in my class, with people who have been studying for a while, I see that they hgave a hard time uderstanding some of the concepts. Some of this is just do to lazy ness. some of it is due to misunderstanding or stubborn refusal to understand.

[txwingchun]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

I think Fuk Sau should be attacking the attack, slipping outside, then continuing the attack with a focus on the lowered elbow to maintain control. Tan sau attacking the attack, slipping inside and then continuing the ttack. Maybe at a higher level it is this way.

Anyway, these are just things I think about, and like someone said above, its not Wing Chun, its that there is a lot of bad Wing Chun out there, as in many styles. So, I guess I shouldn't say Wing Chun can be wasteful, just that some WC practitioners are wasteful.
I agree there's alot of garbage out there and I'm nowhere near a high level yet but the way we apply our tan sau is the way you describe attacking the attack moving inside. I haven't worked with the fook sau yet. I never percived you as having a that much of an issue with Wing Chun from earlier posts jsut with the way alot of it is taught. But I don't want to change the subject of you thread. I'm not anywhere near the Biu Jee level yet but would be interested in hearing how others train thiers.

[Nichiren]

I have trained WC for 5 years and I haven't reached Biu Jee level yet but according to my SiSuk the Biu Jee form contains the "deadly" techniques of WC. It is called to "draw ones energy through the fingers" and are to be used on soft areas like throut, eyes etc. There are also techniques like the spade hand, short elbows etc. in the Biu Jee form.

Beacuse of the nature of these techniques you don't often see
them in training, little margin of error...

If you are interested in extensive information post the question on the WC forum and ask e.g. Sihing73 to answer.

[Ish]

Nichiren, Is this normal in your training for a student to train for 5 years and still not start the third form. I only ask because i started to learn this last night and i have only been training for two years. I do train more than a lot of my fellow students but i would like to know how long everyone took to learn the third form. Not just the time in months/years but how often and how long you were training.

[red5angel]

Hey Ish, just to throw in my 2 cents worth, my class doesnt learn the third form for atleast 2 years, but probably more like 3. We have to have an strong foundation in one level before we go on to the next. For example, we do stance and rooting for a long time before we are ready for Chum kui.

[Ray Pina]

YuenFen, you make a good point. The more popular an art becomes, the more people it draws, this includes the short-timers, the in and outers, who take a small piece then move on and claim Wing Chun and pollute.

I guess in a sense I am one of those guys. I learned Wing Chun for about 3 and a half or 4 years while studying Hung Gar, but I got an opportunity to learn S. MAntis from a good teacher who taught in a manner that I liked so I began to train with both sifus. Politics got involved, and then I had the opportunity of a lifetime to train with my current sifu. I will say that I studied Wing Chun, and it taught me a lot, the sticking and sensitivity is priceless.

I can't claim to know the system, just what I took away. One thing I do see now that I'm learning internal when I play with Wing Chun is this: a desire to follow the hand, maybe sticking a bit too much. When somone runs outside, they tend to try and cling. I'm learning to be like a mouse trap now. When someone runs outside I let the strike fly on that moment of disconect -- I won't chase it anymore. Maybe I would have gotten to the same place if I stayed with Wing Chun. Who knows.

Its like that saying I guess, we are all trecking to the top of the mountain, we just take different paths. I do know this, my sifu is up there, and sometimes he makes it seem so far away -- man, he is too good. Not normal (sorry, had class last night and a lot is on my mind).

[red5angel]

EF, I know that so far in my experience, all of the people I have come across who have real skill in WC, have been studying for a minimum of 8-9 years, if not more. I am not sure if this is standard with other arts or not, but this has been what I have experienced so far in WC.

[scotty1]

8 or 9 years? Would you say that is the same, less than, or more than the time it takes to get "real skill" in other styles?

I tell you, I am seriously considering studying Wing Chun, starting my training in Asia in May, and I have learnt a lot about it through 'eavesdropping' on Yuanfen and Red etc. defending against Evolution Fist! :D

Keep it up guys:)

[Ray Pina]

I hope no one takes my posts as attacks, simply critical discussions on a MA board.

I think one should become a good fighter after 2 or 3 years. After that, it is just the continuation of the martial lifestyle, always improving, adding and yet refining.

I was always under the impression that Wing Chun was actually created to be taught quickly, TO GET REVENGE FOR THE TEMPLE (;) ). There is no denying that after 8 or 9 years you better be good. After 8 or 9 years I should be able to perform open heart surgery if I practiced that the way I train. I guess my question is, do you want to take Wing Chun to the grave, or move on, maybe see what is behing door number two, check out internal?

And I know, Wing Chun is internal.:)

[red5angel]

scotty1- I am not sure if it is like this in other arts, and to answer EFs view on combat, I think you become an effective fighter long before that 8 years is up, it is just that the real quality skills, the real comprehension of the art itself doesnt come for sometime. Does this make sense?
EF, I personally will probably study WC in earnest of the rest of my life, I really like it a lot, and do not feel I need to go elswhere to find what I need. It is both external and internal, as are most chinese ma. I will at soem point probably study a more internal art, but not for some time, and I will most liekely never train for combat outside of WC.

[red5angel]

Oh yes and to answer your question EF on speed of training, well, you can train a person teh entire WC system in a month, or there abouts. This may give them some fighting a ability, like studying boxing for a month, but you wont be able to master the system in that time by any means.

[red5angel]

Also, again! EF dont worry about offending me, we haved discussed WC before and you have since shown me that you are curious and are interested in learning, not trying to troll, I appreciate the conversation, well thought out.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with everything you said. You can get the flavor of the sytem and bang around after a short while. With time, experience, its only natural to become more refined, honed.

Best of luck with your training.

Ray

[Kuen]

I have studied several martial arts and one of the reasons I stick with WC is that I can take it to the grave with me. I just don't see myself practicing the karate, western boxing or Thai boxing I've studied in the past when I'm an old guy. Plus the depth of WC fascinates me and I like the self teaching aspect to it as well. The great paradox of WC is that it's so simple and yet it isn't.

[TenTigers]

The beauty of styles like Wing Chun and Hung-Ga, and other arts is that it can be taught at many levels. At the base level, you can bang around, and be pretty nasty. At higher levels, it becomes more and more refined, and the doors of possibilities open up. Hung-Ga for one, becomes VAST, when this happens. This is why, although I have studied other arts, and will continue to do so, I love Hung-Ga. iThe learning just never stops. Each concept changes the entire art.

[red5angel]

Well said Ten Tigers. I like to look at it as a progression. Sort o flike starting out playing tic tac toe, a simple game, takes a few tries to get it right but once you have it you can play it well. Then checkers, more complicated, alot of variation, and less restrictive. From there you move on to chess, very dynamic, still simple and straight forward but it takes a lifetime to master.
That is why I will stick with WC, I believe that to study another art woulkd only be to take away from my learning in WC.

[TenTigers]

I suppose it could also compared to Go. You can play it at a simple child's level, but the strategies become more complex than chess at higher levels. I play it with my daughter, then her mom comes and wipes the floor with me. Her Gung-Fu is too good for me!

[Nichiren]

I wish I could train WC full time, e.g. 8 hours a day, but I have to work. I'm happy if I can manage 8 hours of quality training a week.

The best WC practitioners I have come across are the ones that have been Pashtun?(lives in the kwoon) students at WT. They train full time and are wicked good. Some of the ones I know have been pashtun for over 3 years. Thats ~40h*52*3=6240h of training over 3 years! :eek: