Hung Gar Lineage

[South Paw]

I read the Lam Sai Wing Memorial Book from 1951 and some questions came up:

1. In the article on Lam Yo it is mentioned that Wong Lei, Chang Hong Chung, Ho See Kit and Chiu Kau are students of him. The book was edited by Lam Yo.
2. There is actually no picture of Chan Hong Chun and Ho See Kit in this book.
3. Why are there no pictures of these great masters together with Lam Yo in this book?
4. Are there at all pictures of Lam Yo together with the aforementioned masters?
5. I know the pictures of Chiu Kau together with Lam Sai Wing and also of Chan Hong Chung with Lam Sai Wing. Why are these pictures taken? Just for the fun of it.
6. In the book Wong Lei and Chiu Kau mention Lam Yo their 'Si Hing Dai', meaning Older Kung Fu Brother. They don't call him their Sifu, because it means and proofs that they were students under Lam Sai Wing. We write the year 1951! Chiu Kau already opening his school in 1931 and Lam Yo starting in 1933.
7. There are also pictures of students of Chiu Kau in this book, for instance Ng Shui Hong.
8. Why are there no pictures of Lam Yo together with Lam Sai Wing in this book?

Want to learn more and read more?

Cheers.

[illusionfist]

Well lets put it this way, you just dont take pictures with your sifu for the hell of it. There was a reason why Chan Hon Chung and Chiu Kau had their pictures taken with LSW.

Peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Illusionfist wrote:
Well lets put it this way, you just dont take pictures with your sifu for the hell of it. There was a reason why Chan Hon Chung and Chiu Kau had their pictures taken with LSW.

Amen to that, brother! Also, good point that you mentioned this is only a Lam Jo book. Someone should also point out that this Lam Sai Wing alumni association is a very small and secondary organization created by Lam Jo, and that there was a much bigger and more important organization created by the rest of his students

[South Paw]

Yes it is a Lam Yo book. And it is a pitty that Bucksam Kong, with all respect, printed some of these materials in his latest book on Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen.
On one hand it is good to see historical material put to print again, but the problem here is, that not all of this material is published and translated in Kong's book.
So the only thing people read now is Chan Hon Chung and Chiu Kau being students of Lam Yo.
Also in this book of Bucksam Kong there are no pictures of Lam Yo together with Lam Sai Wing.

Also in the three books with the Hung Gar sets presented by Lam Sai Wing there is no mention of Lam Yo.

I was told that after the Lam Sai Wing Memorial Book came out there was 'some arguing' about the text between old Lam Sai Wing students with their 'Si Hing Dai' Lam Yo.

[martin]

Dear Hung Kuen Friends,

We are some Hung Kuen practitioners from Europe. In the last months we see a lot about Hung Kuen on different websites. We therefore have lot of questions that came up. We also want to find out the truth.

1. If we learn in a school, who is our Sifu? If the Sifu does not have the time to teach us personally, do we have to call the instructor 'Sifu'. If you have a branchschool (under your own name), who do we have to call 'Sifu'?

2. What is the meaning of the word 'Sifu'?

3. Sometimes we see pictures: Master seating and student standing behind him (For instance: Master Y.C. Wong with Grandmaster Lam Jo). What is the reason for having taken such a picture, what do you use it for?
Does Lam Jo have a picture like this with Lam Sai Wing? If not, why not?
We know that Master Chan Hon Chung and also Master Chiu Kau have one with their Sifu Lam Sai Wing.

4. Is there a picture from Lam Jo with his Master/Uncle Lam Sai Wing, perhaps a picture where you see Lam Sai Wing teaching Lam Jo.

5. About the logo/badge from the Lam school:
Do only students of this school wear this logo/badge? And if we order this logo/badge, are we also students from this school?

5. Grand Master Lam Sai Wing wrote three famous books about Hung Kuen. About Lam Jo is NOT ONE WORD written in these books. Why ?

6. About the Lam Sai Wing Memoriable Association. Why was Lam Jo chairman? Why not persons from the older generation?

7. Why students under Grandmaster Lam Jo, use the (family-)names for 'Sihing / Sisuk / Sije / etc." as a kind of degree?

Regards from Europe,

Martin

[ngokfei]

Hi martin.

good questions, shame no one has found the time to answer them.

First of all if you are a student in a school and the sifu is there, not retired (closed hands) then that is the person you call Sifu. Lately some schools are allowing their senior students accept personal students. Thats up tothe head teacher (sifu) proper title for a senior/instructor is Si Hing or Si Jeh. The most senior is Dai Si Hing/Dai Si Jeh

Sifu means teacher father. Very traditional name which used to have alot of status and privledges. Now we rely on achieving discipleship to mean something. But does the public really know what the responsiblities of being a dsiciple is?? hint. What kind of benefits do you get being a dad.

A branch school has its own sifu. Just that it is linked to the head branch but doesn't make the students of the branch direct students of the head teacher at the main branch (sigung).

the photo with the sifu is a recent thing. In the past when there were no photos you would recieve either a letter/document and there would be a public gathering of local MAteachers to announce a successor or graduating student.

are you talking about lam jo or wing lam in regards tothe patch. That patch (fu hok/tiger crane) is the name of the Lam Sai Wing lineage and is so the accepted logo of students from that lineage.

again good questions, but I don't have all the answers.

:)

Sifu is the word for the teacher of a craft.
A craft in this instance being cooking, or carpentry, or basket weaving, or fighting.
Sinsaung is the word for your children's teacher in primary or secondary school. There is no alphbet in Chinese and the source of the written words is from pictograms. The Word Sifu incorporates a part that means father. Kung fu schools like many organizations in Chinese society are based on family heirachy . In this cultural system it is proper and respectful to address family members by their title and not by their names for example Third Uncle , or Eldest Brother, or Sifu. If you are not a student of some Sifu you address him as Sifu Smith to acknowledge his position as a teacher as you would your Doctor with Doctor Smith.

If you learn in a school, Your Sifu is your teacher. If the Sifu does not have the time to teach you personally, You have to call the instructor Si hing ( Elder Brother ) since you two are your sifu's students and he is more senior to you. If you have a branchschool (under your own name), you still have to call your teacher Sifu.

Traditionally you stand behind or adjacent to your elders when they are seated. So when you pose for a portrait you have to stand behind or adjacent to your Sifu, thats all that means. Why you take a picture with your Sifu or your student is up to you. What is the picture used for? Well most people hang it up on their walls because they like the person that they are in the picture with. A small number of sorry, misguided, insecure people exploit such portraits for selfish reasons like political gain, but I digress here with my personal observations, lets move on.

I hope this is helpful.
Ciao.
:rolleyes:

[Wah Ren Jie]

Great post. Question for you. When using the term Long Shehr (sp?) when referring to a teacher, how does that title compare to the title of Sifu? Respects.

[Brad]

laoshi is literaly teacher while sifu, I think, implies more of a father/son or master/desciple relationship. Personally I prefer laoshi. Although I just found out that if you pronounce laoshi wrong(laoshu) you call your teacher a mouse.

I think we are all using different dialects here. My last post was referencing Cantonese. Anyway there are varing degrees of formality in Chinese colloquialisms.
:rolleyes:

[This message was edited by D on 01-17-01 at 11:27 AM.]

[Brian_CA]

I would like to address your question concerning, the tiger/crane patch of the Lam family. Yes only people who come from our branch should be wearing it. I do not believe that you can order unless you have trained under a student of the Lam Branch. To my knowledge, students of Lam Jo, Lam Chan Fai, Y.C. Wong, Lam Chung Sing and Buck Sam Kong where the emblem. I list these as there are the main ones that I know of coming from Sigung Lam Jo. There are those outside the branch that make claims of training under Lam Jo, but I do not know how legitimate they are.

Sigung Lam Jo created the emblem when he started his school.

I hope this helps

Brian Monnier
San Francisco, CA

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Yes, the patch is pretty much exclusive to Lam Jo's branch. I haven't heard of anybody else using it.

Keep in mind, anybody can copy a patch and try and fool you. So the best thing to do is look for the master's skill rather than his patch.

[tonker]

FOR THE INQUIRING MINDS,
THERE ARE MANY PICTURES OF LAM JO AND HIS UNCLE.
JUST LOG ON THE LAM FAMILY WEBSITE,

WWW.HUNGKUEN.COM. (http://WWW.HUNGKUEN.COM.)
TRUTH DOES NOT LIE IN EMOTION ,BUT IN FACTS.
THE TRUTH IS WE HAVE BEEN LIE TO BY OUR SIFU'
EVERY BODY WANT TO BE LINKED WITH THE ELITE.
THE INTERNET HAS MADE THE WORLD MUCH SMALLER.
BEFORE THE COMMING OF THE INTERNET
WE ACCEPT WHAT OUR SIFU TOLD US,BUT IF YOU DO A LITTLE RESEARCH THE TRUTH CAN BE ASCERTAINED.

LET' NOT SHOW DISDAIN TOWARDS THE LAM FAMILY,BECAUSE OF YOUR BLIND LOYALTY TO TO WHAT YOU BELEIVE TO BE TRUE,FOR BELIEVING AND KNOWING
ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH
IT WILL MAKE YOU FREE.

UNTIL YOU HAVE MET LAM JO AS I HAVE AND FELT HIS
AUGUST PRESENT YOU WILL HAVE DENIED YOURSELF A TRUTH THAT WILL MAKE YOU FREE . THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD NOT DENY YOUR SIFU,I'M SURE THEY MEANT WELL.
WHEN YOU LIE YOU BECOME A MURDERER OF TRUTH.

BEFORE NOW MOST OF YOU WHO ARE GETTING ALL BENT OUT SHAPE CONCERNING THE ALTERCATION BETWEEN CHU
CHI LING &AND THE LAM FAMILY,NEVER KNEW THEIR WAS
A GENEALOGICAL DIAGRAM OF LAM SAI WING. SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND, KNOT AND THE DOOR OF KNOWLEDGE WILL OPEN.GO TO THE LAM FAMILY WEBSITE.DON'T
BEE AFRAID TOO FREE YOUR MIND

PEACE,
TONKER

[illusionfist]

Its fine to substantiate truth, but at least use irrefutable proof. Everything that has been presented so far has not been conclusive, and oftentimes, very misconstrued and taken out of context. Stories have changed since the initial argument began.

Peace :D

[bean curd]

what you posted, you gotta be kidding right. what you been smoking !

you assume to much !!!!!!

you don't know who is on this site, who writes and who knows who, all you know is your world, and who you have met.

if what you have heard, read, and met meets your satisfaction, then i am happy for you, however your condisending remarks, shows your character

[Je Lei Sifu]

Why is it that the entire Hung Ga community is being mislead by their sifu, sigung and so forth, and the Lam's become the saint of truth a knowledge of what is?

The Lam's are not the breeders of a nation.

War and no respect

Je Lei Sifu

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

[sifuchuck]

I'm confused. Aren't you of the Tang Fung line? you guys aren't declaring war on us are you? I mean, except for a couple of old ****s like me, all my students are just little kids.... did I read your message wrong? I hope so--

All respect and peace.
chuck

PS :D

[Je Lei Sifu]

SifuChuck,

No I am not declaring war at all. Instead of my usual comment of saying peace to everyone. I just did the opposite of by saying war. That comment was not being made as an assualt on the Lams nor was I representing the Tang Fong people at all. It was not meant as a challenge to anyone either.
In most cases in the past I stay neutral on a lot of issues, however, it is hard to stay that way when someone is trying to tell you something that is not true and try to force feed you into believing that it is.

The only thing that I wish for, is that things can be resolved as soon as possible. It does not matter what the Lams believe nor do it matter what I think or believe. The bottom line is that all of us within the Hung System are a family. And it does not matter which branch you are born of, because we all come from the same roots. If we cannot respect the lineage within our own family, why should any other family within the Mo Lum respect us.

Peace and Respect

Je Lei Sifu

SifuChuck, if you would like, email me at Je_Lei_Sifu@Juno.com
:cool:

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger