"Tun To Fau Chum" and tendon

[cricri]

When I read pak mei guys' posts I feel that the concept of "Tun To Fou Chum" allows to generate power (or jing) with biomechanical principle.

In other hand, I am told that the jing is a work of the tendons.

Where is the principle of the jing? In biomechanic or in tendon? Are they complementary? If it is the case, I can easily figure out how to work out the biomechanical stuff (by the sets). But I do not see how do pak mei guy deals with the tendon work out.By a specific exercise? By tao?

I might misunderstood the concept of "Tun To Fou Chum". That concept and Tendon concept might be the same thing.

So where is the truth?


/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[kull]

cricri-

What do you mean by tendon? like the tendon that attaches muscle to bone? If so, then it is based on biomechanics. All movements can and are based on biomechanics from a western physiological point of view. Jing, is a traditional chinese physiological concept and may not be exact correspondence to biomechanical sciences, because of the diffrent interpretations ppl. have. I think jing can most accurately be described in western physiological terms as power. All moves in Bai Mei must have jing in it.

As for using biomechanics and tendon work, i don't quite understand what u mean by that. If u can explain further maybe i can give a little help.

[mantis108]

It has been a while since I last posted anything on Bak Mei. Cricri, my friend, this is for you.

This solely my understanding of Ging. It is one school of thoughts. Other Bak Mei practitioner may disagree.

To understand Ging, we will have to look at the Ying/Yang Taoist symbol. It is paradox in nature. It appears to be a wave (the fish) yet AT THE SAME TIME it appears as a partical (the dot within the fish). It is the "crack" within the "whip". The dot is the "Shock Power" (Gang Ging) which is what Bak Mei is known to have.

In Bak Mei, there are 6 External and 4 internal Power.

6 Externals are Teeth, Neck, Waist, Back, Arms, and Legs. As you can see these are more joints related which is why the External stage emphasized on power generates from the opening and closing of joints.

4 Internals (also know as 4 inner shooting power) are Swallow (Tun), Spit (To), Surface (Fao), and Submerge (Chum). These are done by esoteric breathing patterns.

the 6 External are the biomechanic and the Chaisse of an automobil; Whereas, the 4 Internals are, for a lack of a better word, CHI and the engine of the car. They are Ying/Yang. Ying without Yang is meaningless. However, they are only the beginnig and the fundation of Bai Mei. You will have to transform your automoblie into a local motive by learning a higher level of Ging - Jik, Chum, Sing and Gang.

So you see Bak Mei is both internal and external. It is relatively easier to start with the external and move onto other plateaus. This is how Taoism is important to the style.

Hope this helps

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[wisdom mind]

long time no see,
understandable...

thanks once again for coming through on the knowledge tip.


more fire education pon dem head

[meltdawn]

Thank you thank you thank you.

Meltdawn

[MoQ]

It is really great to see you all back..*sob* This is the best Christmas of all! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mantis108-... just when I think I'M esoteric, dang...

In my Magic Hermit Crab Style, TTFC is mainly just a descriptive name of The Posture and a general term for all the postural manipulations.
The Powers we use are the eight area force and the 3 border force, along with jerking, pushing, springing and sinking.

As far as these "gings" being in the tendons I think the reference is to the tight skeletal snap at the root of this type of power expression. Of course bones have no action on their own(except on hallowe'en!). It is not in the muscles, it is hindered by tension in the muscles. The sudden and explosive force can hurt the muscles if they get in the way("my neck hurt for DAYS"). The amazingly bloodless tendons(ging is anaerobic) are incredibly strong. If anyone has seen the Discovery special on cephalopods... Squid especially, seem to be virtually MADE of tendon(mostly polynucleosaccharides or something) and use what 2-legged landthings call "ging" for their movement. Their effortless, lightning fast attack (and retreat), is a ging study to rival anything airbreathers have contrived...

On a side note, we breath normally as if nothing is going on, except for the short bursts in or out adjusting with the diaphragmatic conditions of the postural manipulations...

[wisdom mind]

great breakdown MoQ. really thought provoking. maybe ill add after meditation...i like the way you wrote it as to keep certain critical aspects of the practice hidden while explaining it clearly to those of us who are involved with pak mei.

[fiercest tiger]

luk ging- is 6 body parts that mantis 108 has mentioned.

fou, chum rise and fall, tun, to swallow and spit are the movements that body and breath combined to create ging.(power) it is not mysterious.

hands and body have to work together to get ging.

luk hup is combined 3 external and 3 internal co-ordinates are used
-external are eyes, hands , feet (nrng,gerk,sau)
-internal are spirit,heart,chi (jing,sun,hay)

all movements have to have YAU KUNG....softness to hardness- the dots inside the circle means thatat any time soft and hard will change, and merge into each other.

combine all these with the -3 body shapes for fighting.....? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

Lovely to see this I hope it stays this way forever.

All very valuable statements, to add some ~ism to the equation.

Interesting way of looking at the Yin Yang symbol. Traditionally It meant that nothing is totally Yang nor Yin rather that there are vary extremes of balances. Thus in Yang there is a notion of Yin and vice versa.

Regarding the 6 Externals it is quite resolute that each those coincide in locking consider ...pressing your teeth, locking your neck, then waist and back arms and legs and now you are perfectly tense when they are in harmony. These six Externals are merely the main features that allow the body to function as one in the opening and releasing facet of executing Ging.

A simple method of observing the tendons and their relationships to such a ging concept is to twist the arm from the elbow down in a palm down the palm up then down etc...doing it with muscle tenseness then loose...it becomes clear that the faster more Ging motion arises when muscles are lapsed throughout and even as most people use the muscles to stop the movement via this method the natural anatomical structure prevents overturning so it can vividly be seen that the action is coincidential with the twist action that is effected to the bone structure via the connecting tendons/ligaments which are the elements that phase the muscles to the bone.

Therefore the motion has relied on zero major muscle generation thus making it fast, solid and Jingy ...this concept relates to what some call soft jing but to those knowing hard jing it is even more important.

Breathing of the Tun To Fau Chum also facilitate the generation of a power of the whole body where the stop or tensing like stage allows the impact to be sudden and solid. This breathing is conducted in many stages from the simple reverse equal lengths to the pumping to the flowing where breath is naturally flowing though the movements are forceful rapid and seemingly breath inhibited/coordinated/hindered. These levels also determine the advancement of the practitioner and should be ordered in such a way as to promote the natural.

Regards All
I look forward to a bright future

Shi Chan Long
"Master of nothing but self"

[meltdawn]

My martial arts experience is very short and limited as compared to others I admire on this forum; however, I have studied human anatomy and biomechanics in depth in relation to other sports. The concept of ging can be explained in terms of action and reaction.

First there is the ACTION. Muscles pull in opposition to each other. Tendons attach them to the bones (points of leverage) and ligaments hold those bones together. See Fierce? Even I can state the obvious. For movement to occur, the muscle contracts to place leverage (i.e. open or close a joint).

Since the Magic Hermit Crab Style (well, at least MY pure lineage) is a relatively soft style, the muscles aren’t the reason for power. However, to keep the body centered and balanced the opposite muscle group of the instigating aforementioned group on the OPPOSITE side of the body must contract. OK, just follow me on this, I do know where I’m going.

Secondly, there is REACTION. The ging can only manifest as the byproduct of efficient co-utilization of both sides. In the ACTION part, muscles contract and connective tissue is stretched. The REACTION part is the law of physics, that connective tissue is allowed to return the levered anatomy to neutral and NOT the opposing extended muscle group actively seeking to do so. BUT this can only be so if the body is relaxed. See next paragraph.

So we have the “6 Externals: Teeth, Neck, Waist, Back, Arms, and Legs” mechanically creating the ACTION. And we have the “4 Internals (also know as 4 inner shooting power) are Swallow (Tun), Spit (To), Surface (Fao), and Submerge (Chum)” which direct the ACTION. Only by complete study of these concepts can the martial artist effectively gain his power from the REACTION, which means allowing all of the above principals in practice fulfill their objectives.

Anybody falling for this yet?

Meltdawn

Hi,

In your message, you mentioned "learning a higher level of Ging" and goes on listing the 4 keywords.
If it is alright with you, care to further explain them, ie as to what they mean, how are they relate to Tun TOu Fou Chum, and how are the 4 keywords being classify as the higher level of Ging?

Feel free to email me privately if you want to. I believe you have my contact email.
Have a good day friend! Thanks in advance!

Integraman

[fiercest tiger]

i have also studied anatomy, and you explaination was good, although saying how to do it and doing it is another thing.

all muscles have to very elastic like to really produce ging. if you are very solid and do no stretching of the muscles then you will have very little ging. it would be all brute strenght not real ging(power) we are talking about.

2 man exercises, training devices specifically designed to develop correct muscles for punching and pulling etc, with stretching will create more power. you cannot get this just through form work.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[kull]

Ok i think i understand what u mean by thendon crici. I disagree with the concept of tendon genrating jing. Tendons are classified as "Dense Regular Connective Tissue" It consists of mainly collagen fiber and fibroblast (cells which produce collagen). Depended on type of connective tissue it may also contain plasma cells, adipocyctes, macrophages, and a few others. But NOWHERE does it conatain any mitachondria (responsible for cellular respiration) or any type of cells or tissue that can produce movement on its own. Muscles contain lot of mitachondria for ATP(energy) production and are designed to contract. Therefore "jing" is generated in the muscles not the tendons.

"Jing" can better be explained by the diff. types of muscle in the body. there r 3- SLOW OXIDATIVE FIBERS, FAST OXIDATIVE GLYCOLYTIC, FAST GLYCOLYTIC. Fast glycolytic has the largest diametere and produce the most powerful contractions, but they have few blood vessels and few mitachondria, therefore they appear white (like tendons). We all know how fast and powerful a shark is when it attacks its food. Interestingly when u dissect a shark lot of its muscles appear white. I don't remember the percentage of white to red muscle, but i know it is high. I haven't studied the squid so i don't really know its physiology, i do know it is made up of mostly connective type tissue. I think it moves by sucking and shooting water out, like a jet engine does to air.

[kull]

Polynucleosaccharides? = multi nucleous sugar cells?

[meltdawn]

Thanks for more in-depth description of the parts to which we refer.

You state that you believe that the muscles create ging, not tendons, correct?

I am stating that the muscles create the ging (ACTION) but are NOT the ging (REACTION). You can use your muscles as levers to push against a wall all day, but you will never manifest ging.

Example of ging:
You have a rubber band around two fingers. One finger is lever and one is fulcrum. You pull the rubber band with one finger (ACTION). Then you release it, letting it fly. What does it do? Ging! REACTION. Now the rubber band has spent it’s energy, and since it is no longer connected to either fulcrum or lever, it cannot create more.

Take the rubber band with two fingers again and pull, but this time do not allow it to fly off the finger when you release. Let it snap back, then pull it apart again. This is an example of the human muscular system. By contracting muscles, you create energy. Allowing the levered anatomy to then do it’s job and snap back is releasing that energy. Since we have opposing muscle groups to flex and extend, we can control and recapture that energy. When your finger stops the rubber band from returning to a neutral state, it is using the opposite set of muscles to what created the action. It is preventing the complete release of energy (controlling and recapturing).

On to the condition of the rubber band. The benefits of stretching are many. To create more elastic connective tissue allows the ging to travel further and faster. However, the muscles creating the ging must also be capable of producing a strong initiative and recapturing quickly. Over-flexibility sacrifices strength, and under-flexibility sacrifices ging.

As FT states (did I just say that out loud?), saying it and doing it are two different things. The mind must be aware of all phases and capable of directing the action. The mind itself has action and reaction: it issues demands for action, receives input from the reaction, and rebounds onto the next scenario.

One big happy circle.

Meltdawn

[mantis108]

Hi everyone,

Good to see you guys. Like my friend MoQ said this indeed going to be a special X'Mas, Even Integraman is back (How are you pal?)

First off, it is not without great hesitation that I responded to CriCri's post. He's a great guy and a good friend. Can't let a friend down. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also would like to bring the discussion of Bak Mei up a notch which is why I posted the above and to hopefully inspire a more in depth understand of the style. Beside, I love technical discussions.

Let me have a chance to address my friends first:

Kull,

It a pleasure to have your input.

Burn the Wikked,

There is still fire in you.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Meltdawn,

Thank you , Thank you and Thank you /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MoQ,

Interest insights as alway, thanks.

ShaolinMaster,

Indeed, it is nice to have valid technical discussion and your input is greatly appreciated.

Integraman,

Direct and to the point as always, my friend. Please see my following post.


Almost forgot...

FT,

Hello, kitty.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[mantis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In your message, you mentioned "learning a higher level of Ging" and goes on listing the 4 keywords.
If it is alright with you, care to further explain them, ie as to what they mean, how are they relate to Tun TOu Fou Chum, and how are the 4 keywords being classify as the higher level of Ging?

Feel free to email me privately if you want to. I believe you have my contact email.
Have a good day friend! Thanks in advance!

Integraman [/quote]

I mention briefly about the 4 Gings because the orginal question was about the Tendon and TTFC. Since you are interested and I am glad that you have a keen mind picking it up, I would hope to further Bak Mei technical discussions.

TTFC is the bread and butter of Bak Mei. The teachings of this style are closely related to one and other. It is like the Ying/Yang symbol that they are integral parts of a larger whole. Understand the 6 Externals and 4 Internals is only the begining meaning you have acquired certian proficiency but really doesn't mean you are a master of the style. The 4 Gings, which I mentioned, has 2 layers. On a superficial understanding of them would seem that they are merely a discription of types of power. IMHO, they are not just that limited. There are in fact mile stone (stages) of proficiency and manifest in that order also. Jik (straight), Chum (sink), Sing (elevate) and Gang (Shock) are stages of developement.

Jik Ging: As a power, it is direct and forward (this is of ulmost importance). In Bak Mei, one forges ahead never back out. This is evident in the format of forms like Jik Bo, Gau Bo Tyui, Sap bat, etc... The accomplishment of this stage is techniques are clean and crisp. Extended tools never needed to be retrack. It charges on relentlessly.

Chum Ging: As a power, it is "heavy" and sticky. Let said you "Chi Sau" (to borrow a Wing Chun analogy) with someone you can wear the guy out if you have Chum ging in your Tan-Bong-Fook. The achievement of this stage is the Iron body. With the TTFC and other Kungs. They "sank" into your bones (rather developed thick proctective "tendon" so to speak)

Sing Ging: As a power, it is "light" and uprooting. This leaves the opponent feels that he can not root himself properly and that you provide not a hint of leverage for him. At this stage, you have full command of your body even the "outer kidneys (for guys only). You want to drop someone you drop him with great ease.

Gang Ging: You are pulsating with energy. You are awaken. Any angle, any plane, no problem. It "frieghtens" and "shocks" (as in electric current) people; hence, Gang Ging.

All in all, there are always the 6 Exs and 4 Ins. Just that they are transformed into higher plateau.

Anyway, just sharing my limited knowledge.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[fiercest tiger]

very good answers from everyone, it shows that we all seem to know about this topic /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i look at fou chum tun to as the motor, the rest of the body is the delivery system. a question for everyone with training FCTT, are you taught dip gwat gung- rib, muscle training when learning these 4(FCTT) OR your not taught this? i think you should at lest understand the rib training, because it can really open up doors for you FCTT skills.

thanks guys! oh and gals


/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

I really appreciate your response to my questions.
I truly value the willingness of you to share your knowledge not only with me, but with the rest in this open forum.

Integraman

[MoQ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Fast glycolytic has the largest diametere and produce the most powerful contractions, but they have few blood vessels and few mitachondria, therefore they appear white (like tendons). We all know how fast and powerful a shark is when it attacks its food. Interestingly when u dissect a shark lot of its muscles appear white. I don't remember the percentage of white to red muscle, but i know it is high. I haven't studied the squid so i don't really know its physiology, i do know it is made up of mostly connective type tissue. I think it moves by sucking and shooting water out, like a jet engine does to air. [/quote]

Other than the waterjet propulsion miss, this is pretty much my point. Good to have the help from the young and schooled.

Of course Meltdawn has a good point with the reaction thing. It being all fig.8's, since there are no straight lines per se, where it starts and ends may not be the point.

The "muscle" idea is fine, except that naturally it's the tendons that attach them to the bones and we all know we aren't talking about "strength".

It's cool that everyone is their own resident expert. It's great to have one around the house... *moan*

[kull]

You are right! What you describe is what is called the "myotatic stretch reflex" This reflex action is a muscle contraction in response to sufficient froce encountered suddenly that cause it to stretch. it happens to prevent tearing of the muscles. Therefore it is a very powerful contraction, even more so than any consciously generated contraction. The first ppl. to do studies on this as the eastern european countries namely the Russians. They called it shock training, i think.

When we see how a tricep moves in a punch or chop in bai mei it becomes more clear. For all bai mei ppl. iam sure your teacher would say THROW ur punch out and let it snap back naturally, don't pull it back, then quickly go into next move, right. When the tricep contracts and extends the arm ,as in punching, the force generated by the fast glyco. fibers is so powerful and quick that it snaps the forewarm backwards stretching the tricep, when this happens the "stretch reflex" contracts the muscle to stop the movement, b/c of special fibers called intrafusal fibers, surronded by nerves that sense this could damage the muscles. Since muscles have elastic qualities (as stated by meltdawn) they can store a portion of this energy generated by the stretch reflex and subsequent extention type contraction would be even more powerful. Research has shown that a muscle that is streched b4 a contraction will contract more forcefully and rapidly (Bosco & Komi, 1980 Influence of countermovement amplitude in potentiation of muscle movement). But in order to take advantage of the stored energy the subsequent muscle contraction MUST be smooth and done QUICKLY as possible. Otherwise look like taichi, LOL, just kiddin, no offense to TC ppl.

That is why bai mei moves are "jingy" like spring and done at top speed. Of course the ancients did not analyse this way. They were able to intuitively apply this with terms like Fa jing, qi, nei gung... But i still can't figure out how other phenomenoms of qi works like bai mei iron shirt, LOL.

[kull]

Oh yes, we can see this action in many bai mei exercises to help improve power and also in modern training sports. We have seen boxers who do push ups quickly and clap while in air. This exercise takes advantage of stretch reflex response.

[meltdawn]

Oh, wow, this is great!!!

Kull, thank you for the awesome compliment in putting technical terms and research behind my suppositions.

FT, thanks for acknowledging my gender.

Mantis, you da man. Awwww yeah, baby!
I have more questions:
"Jik (straight), Chum (sink), Sing (elevate) and Gang (Shock)" Do you suggest they be learned in this succession due to advanced concepts?

Since these are ging manifestations of which we speak, they happen in an instant. Describing each in technical terms seems important to clarify my own understanding. Please tell me if I'm on the right track.

jik = linear power (uh, in a circular sense)
chum = downward levered power
sing = upward levered power
gang = wow, this one is tough. Would it be suction power? Sorry, having a hard time... I mean more like a strike aimed to take the opponent's innards out.

Thank you, you've taken my study up a notch. Now I'm going out to practice!

Meltdawn

[mantis108]

Hi all,

First off, thanks for the support from all of you. Including you, FT. I am impressed that you don't put the "I knew more than you do" statment. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Freshing indeed. Also, it is wonderful to have inhouse scientist on Bak Mei's side. *thumbs up*

Integraman,

My pleasure my friend. I often think that secrecy thing put the study of a wonderful art in jeopardy. Many real meaningful stuff lost at great cost to the generations to come. One of the reasons why I decided to post again is that I saw a VCD (thanks to LU) on Gau Bo Tyui from Mainland China. It is sad that it went onto the lost path of WuShu. I was horrified by it. Besides, my friend, I know you would put it to good use. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I believe in lead by example. If I am to learn from others, then it is important to "throw a piece brick to entice a piece jade." Anyway, thanks for your Kind words and support.

Meltdawn,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Jik (straight), Chum (sink), Sing (elevate) and Gang (Shock)" Do you suggest they be learned in this succession due to advanced concepts?[/quote]

As stages, yes (except Gang (enlightenment) can happen any time). Also, they are more the result of the work being done. You might said there is nothing to learn. It would be a natural progression.

As power, you can't really divide them. As a Taoist, one can hardly fall into extremity.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Since these are ging manifestations of which we speak, they happen in an instant. Describing each in technical terms seems important to clarify my own understanding. Please tell me if I'm on the right track.[/quote]

Again, labeling things are for the intellectual mind not for the intuitive teachings.

[qoute]jik = linear power (uh, in a circular sense)
chum = downward levered power
sing = upward levered power
gang = wow, this one is tough. Would it be suction power? Sorry, having a hard time... I mean more like a strike aimed to take the opponent's innards out.
[/QUOTE]

Jik articulates directness, economy of motion, etc... like fire and water.

Chum is like lead

Sing is like mercury

Gang is Vajra (thunderbolt, golden pill, or whatever label). Think of it as alternate current. Meditate on the 8 Trigrams primodial arrangement (as a Mandala), it articulates the explosion and inplosion concept. It's always Ying/Yang.

Side note: I Ching has lost of Taoist wisdom in it. It goes hand in hand with the study of Bak Mei.

Hope this helps

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

Mantis108,

I agree with your POV that the theory and mechanics of power generation is dualistic in nature, meaning that one aspect cannot function mutually exclusive of another aspect. They are complementary in nature. For those who has difficulty to understand Tun Tou Fou Chum, one easier way to understand this at least in my understanding is to that anything that goes up must come down, and anything that goes in must come out.
The understanding of external harmonization and correct physical structure have to take precedent over Tun Tou Fou Chum as inability to grasp and internalize the correct structure implies the failure to fully comprehend Tun Tou Fou Chum.
While I applaud the breaking down of the power generation mechanics into biomechanical manners, it is only partially "correct" in the sense that biomechanical understanding will bring you only to this far, but as advised by our friend, Mantis108 which in my opinion is very true is that the contemplation and meditation of the dualistic principles can shed many confusion and bring about enlightenment.
Hope this helps.

Integraman

[Shaolin Master]

Western Anatomical Features :

TENDONS
- A Muscle is usually atached to bone/or cartiladge via a tendon.
- A Tendon is a tough cord of connective tissue composed of closely packed collagen fibres. It is extension of the deep fascia and/or the epimysium surrounding the muscle. It extends into the priosteum that covers the bone.
- Other than simple being attachments, tendons add length & thickness to muscles, it is extremely important in reducing muscle strain and it adds strength to muscle action.

MUSCLE ACTION

1. Agonist (Prime Mover) - ie primary muscles responsible for movement.

2. Antagonist (Anti-Prim. Mover) - Opposes the prim. moverement in a subtle way. Not when contracting but only at the end of a strong contraction to protect the joints [cooperates rather than opposes]

3. Synergist - together as an in-between joint when a prim. mover passes more than one joint.

4. Fixator/Postural Muscle - provides a stable base of action for the prim. mover. Usually steadies the proximal end (ie arm) while actual movement is occuring at the distant end (ie hand).

According to the 3 'general' overall jing definitions -
Hard Jing - Visible as tensded muscles

Soft-Hard Jing - Like a Whip , great deal of
force in short span of time, done with the elasticity and counter supporting motion of the tendons, instigated by muscle pulses.

Soft Jing - Less visible less muscle tension very fluid and flowing supported by Qi at the more adv.level.

According to the Chinese view:

'LI' Muscles strength/power is derived from bones and muscles.
'JING' arises vire tendons, supported by Qi and propagated by pulse like muscle interaction between changes,

Thus as tendons are emphasized muscle fibres can be relatively relaxed thus Qi is more flowing ..more so at the advanced viewpoint. Utilising the tendons as such it is easier to become flexible and more elusive.

To Compare LI-Muscle Pwr & Jing-Pwr.

-Li stagnant, Jing is fluid
-Li is dull, Jing is sharp
-Li is Rigid (Sluggish/Stiff), Jing is concaved(Smooth/agile/alive)
-Li has shape (Can be seen), Jing no shape(needs to be felt)
-Li is Diffuse(spread), jing is concentrated

The more the muscles relax the more Qi can be used, allowing tendon elasticity and propagation to takeover the manifesting control of the motion keeping it flowing in a pulse like fashion.

Root are the legs, Waist is the director, Back is the emitting support of force.

Methods of manifesting Jing rather than Muscle power are by observing some of the following points :
- Spirit makes action alive
- Balanced (action & reaction counter balanced)
- Relaxed Body
- Whole body as one
- Like a Pulse
- Accumulate before generating ( like a bow & arrow...coil body, hollow the chest, arching the back, compressing and coiling like a spring)
- Make the generating effort as above unseen
- speed in action, that usually does not exhaust rather the momentum of one jing action to another makes it even faster.
- Supported by Qi.

Til Later
Shi Chan Long

[Shaolin Master]

Jik - Straight & Direct, pinpoint and threw without hesitation of inbetweens. Forward surging

Chum - Heavy but maliable

Sing - Flowing but connected, transformable but rising without losing source

Gang - Sudden without motion, from all directions without aim for a direction, direct but non pinpointing, everywhere but from only one source. Like a canon.

Regards
Shi chan Long

[cricri]

I would like to thank everyone for your very valuable information. It is very instructive.

What I now understand is that TTFC is a combination of body motion and breathing in order to create and direct a ging. There are several kind of ging.

Regarding the influence of tendons in ging, you explained mechanics of power generation . You mentionned the concept of action/reaction phenomenum, the concept of the eight area force and the 3 border force, the importance of the breathing, the need to have relaxed muscle, the importance of the ribs work (?)...

Most of these concept is related to a biomechanical concept. There is no link with a physical ability of any kind.

Meltdawn and Fierce Tiger talk about a muscle work out and a stretching work. And Fierce Tiger said that form work cannot allow us to have a good ging. So hight level forms have no meaning.And does it mean that Pak Mei kung fu is not in the forms but in specific exercices?

Now let's assume that I know how to generate a ging. With all these concept I do not see how to have a better ging. So how would I be able to improve my ging? In every single technic ofa sport there is a technic part and a physical ability part. So how can I increase the physical ability for a ging? in stretching?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nota : Mantis, I would like to thank you for your kindness and friendship for me. I do appreciate it.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cricri,
Some thought:
1. Find a teacher who understand these concepts and willing to teach you
2. Daily practice to acquire the "body knowledge"/make it second nature to you
3. Further finetune your Ging
4. Refinement comes under consistent practice and good guidance under knowledgeable teacher
5. More advance methods to produce more forceful Ging
6. Correct practice of weaponry at a more advance level also helps.

Of course this is my own opinion.

Integraman

[fiercest tiger]

IMHO i teach form and 2 man exercises that develop the muscles of the legs,waist, ribs,arms and back.
you can also have training devices that are used to direct chi to the correct muscles that are developed for certain punches etc.

you can get ging forms, but like shaolin master said, ging is more felt than expressed which is correct.

high level pak mei is done with soft ging fast. does that make sense???

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[meltdawn]

This is waaaay toooooo much to assimilate in one sitting. especially on a Sunday night after a full day of work.

Mantis, I see that you answered my questions before I spoke them. Guess I should pay attention to what I read! And my western thinking only gets more in they way... sigh...

I want to reply more, but time (and brain power) permits only one thing: I've been reading muscle/tendon changing, marrow/brain washing stuff again. Internal and external are inseperable. While I continue to seek a physical meaning for the answers, I must remember how much my qigong has helped. And I CAN'T physically explain that.

"I was Ghengis Khan... no, not my screen name... I WAS Ghengis Khan."

[cricri]

Hi integraman,

I do agree with you on your thoughts. But I did not want to know how to learn to have a ging.

The purpose of my question was to know, according your opinion, the type of exercice in order to improve your ging. It is like in a lot of sport. Some hight level athlet know how to do their technics (they assililate the technic, they understand all the biomechanich of their technics). But they do some bodybuilder exercice in order to improve their technic. And the exercice motion might be not related to the technics.

For instance fierce tiger said that he is doing some man exercice for developping muscle. So he might think that ging take his source in muscle. Some said that ging is coming from the action/reaction principle of muscle. So I just wanted to know what kind of exercice they are doing to develop that characteristic of the muscle.

That kind of question can also give the different ways to approach Pak Mei style.

It is only my point of view. cheers
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[kull]

Mantis108- thanks for compliment but i not scientist, just have BS, lol, working on MS.

Crici-
When some ppl. decribe ging as develope in tendon some say muscle, actiually it is both is correct, depending on point of view taken. In Traditonal chinese physiology, we never differentiate tendon from muscle, the "jin" was responsible for movement and disorders that involve jin have impaired movement of limbs. It is only when modern bioscience was intro did we incorporate tendon as connective tisse, and muscles as movement. So when u ask what exercise develop ging, remain loose and relax never use ur muscle, use ur internal energy liu ging (6 external), 4 nei ging (4internal) this is traditional pt. of view. Develop power=force x speed of muscle contraction, this is modern physiology.
hope this help.

[kull]

oops sorry
power= strength x speed of muscle contraction

[mantis108]

Hi All,

It is wonderful to see the amount of input that is on this thread. Hope we can have more of these kind of discussion. I really have to thank everyone's support and kind words. This has been an encourage experience. Thank you all. CriCri thanks for a wonderful thread.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[cricri]

thank you for your answer.

So when you said that to develop ging I have to remain loose and relax that I never have to use my muscle, and that I have to use my internal energy It remind me the way how the tai chi chuan ppl are working. So working quick is a non sense at a certain level. right or wrong?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

nota : what means "lol"?

[Ross]

"power= strength x speed of muscle contraction"

This formula doesn't really explain things for me at all.

Power (watts) is the rate at which work is done so

Power= force x velocity.

Know this sounds picky but there isn't really a recognised method for measuring strength that two people can agree on. I wouldn't equate strength with force as there are many types/definitions of strength...

Can someone clarify further or send me an e-mail to keep this from clogging the thread?

Thanks, R

crm3a@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

the Kull equation a bit simplistic and truely it cannot be defined as such.

One would more appropriate to state it as a function.

Eg.

Power = f(mass, muscle contraction, bone density, tendon elasticity, Qi flow, Joint cushioning, muscle strength, direction, air resistance, reaction force handling, conditionin......and a million other things)

Each one of those then are a function of something else.
Eg Muscle Contractions = F(whatever cells, chemicals etc....)
Qi flow - F( diet, yuen Qi, Jing, Shen, Time, Month, year etc.....)

However these are never definitive.....nor correct as such nothing is. They are just methods of explaining at differing levels of comprhension.

The truth of the matter is that attempting to explain concepts scientifically is nice and interesting but only through thorough practice will correct powers and energies arise. Even if you new this goes with that in a million scientific philosophical ways.......the one who does that practice correctly will achieve their aim.

Cricri,
TaiQi - From Internal to External
BaiMei - From External to Internal
But balance in end in both....
So different but same....hehehe.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

[fiercest tiger]

GOOD TIMING AND SPEED= POWER

STRENGTH WILL COME WITH PRACTISE BUT TIMING, SPEED, AND GOOD BODY MACHENICS ARE MORE IMPORTANT.

just practise and develop each strike with power(ging), dont worry if it is springy etc, your sifu will show you how to punch correctly!! i hope.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[kull]

R-
Yes ur right that there r many definitions of strength- speed strength, endurance strength,...etc. Bodybuilders, powerlifters, boxers, all exhibit diff. combinations and manifestations of strentgh, speed, endurance.

ShaolinMast.- Thank u, yes that formula isn't quite true, and it is quite simple. ur right power is a FUNCTION of factors, speed and strength, all things being equal. It is not a multiple.

Fierce Tig.- yes ur right too, timing is very important, especially in activity like martial art, and strength will come with practise, this is what they call neural adaptation to training. But crici was asking about ging, and how to develop.

Crici- what do u mean that working quick is a non-sense? LOL=laugh out loud/lots of laugh, chat room expression. Again when they say don't use muscle but internal energy, u have to remember they r describing a phenomena through chinese physiology, not contemporary physiology.

[meltdawn]

Ahhhh, back when we were all friends...

Oh yeah, we still are. Just that this one happened to be troll-less.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[Buby]

I wonder how it got up there?

Buby

[tnwingtsun]

This topic and posts are like a breath of fresh air.
Question,Does the shock force emit(or can it)
pulse in a 360 degree arc or is it limited
to one azmith?
The reason I ask this is that I've seen what appered to be this gang or shock force
gernerated in all directions at once.

[CannonFist]

This shock force can emit in multiple directions due to the dip gwut (rib cage fold) and tun, tou, fao, chum mechanics as opposed to merely generating power via turning the waist.

I think the dip gwut and tun, tou, fao, chum is an important link in power generation.

The other vital link of power generation is the "elbow force" which is the specialty of Wing Chun.

[meltdawn]

tnwingtsun:
Would you further elaborate upon your experience? I would assume you don’t mean "seen" literally.

I think this would fall outside the realm of TTFC. Even yuen, circle, still contacts at one point (is this what you mean by azimuth?). These principals in application necessitate the use of physics and body mechanics to focus power, not disperse it. We can debate the effect of the contact, whether it be stopping or penetrating, but it is still a single contact. No matter the energy behind it, one still needs to aim.

On the next level, the four internal powers, I would suppose gang ging might describe the experience you witnessed. One who has achieved gang has full control of all external and internal powers, thus can manifest them on any plane, no limitations. I think all of us must purely speculate whether or not it can be manifested on ALL planes (versus multiple) concurrently, as you ask. How would you experience an arc? A tornado, perhaps. But the human body has form and constitution. I would think one must have other than martial kung fu to exhibit this ging.

Someone else MUST have another opinion…

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[fiercest tiger]

The ging would be like a duck or dog shaking the water off its body. it should go in all directions, although cannon fist brought up the dip gwut / rib power which i think links with the elbows.

meltdawn- does your school work on the 3 body shapes, you mentioned yuen(circle) what about the other 2?

just my cents worth!

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[meltdawn]

But wouldn't that be more of a waist generated effect?

I desire correction from tn if I've misunderstood him, but I think he's describing more of an explosion. Gang ging evolves from a culmination of the use of all body mechanics and and understanding of their issuance of power. So possibly we as mere mortals are too slow to understand that which appears to be omnipresent. The master appears/feels as if he has "exploded" in all directions simultaneously, but the event is more like a highly tuned rapid fire attack.

"you mentioned yuen(circle) what about the other 2?"
Yeah, what about them...

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[WenJin]

Practise San Jan long long time. Power is non resolute no waist no hip no open closing lung just all. Don't understand well honestly neither do I really a teacher explained to me I felt but did not understand :(

[Shaolin Master]

In each power the pulsating wave occurs so that there is a particular emphasis and particular mechanics. So for some issuance there is a need for the 6 EXTERNALs to be addressed differently, then supported by 3 INTERNALS....within there is the outer issuance of Tun Tau Fau Chum as well as things like Dip Gwut, Hau Hun, Dan Lok that specifically support adequate issuance of such energy.....The point is that they occur separate.

In Gang Geng it is all together (though in chain, they are trained so that the second before one and the other becomes non existant) thus being at an instant ......

San Zhan in Fukien arts, San Bu Jin in Sth Mantis & in BM Gau Bo Toi are the key....but who practices that way :).....again and again slow fast, medium, one geng two geng more gang geng then is the lore.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[fiercest tiger]

you cannot have one without the other waist, dip gwut,ttfc, hum hung bat boy, 3 posture, chum boy chum jarng all are used together. luk ging, luk hup all as one! :rolleyes:

do you practise the other 2 body shapes in your dragon?
what are they used for?

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

Hehe....without objective there is no Geng of any sort. See Classics talk "all as one" an easy statement but for learning adequately objective changes and at the end Gang become one again....sounds like a circle but it is the only way no short cuts no theories life....
Oh yes a little of everything in anything but where is it going to.
Unfortunately this could be spoken of forever....solution go and practice don't think and one day you will know.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[This message was edited by Shaolin Master on 04-19-01 at 10:37 PM.]

[meltdawn]

Shaolin Master:
That was an excellent description.

tnwingtsun:
Waiting for your feedback.

FT:
When you roll your eyes at me, why would I be eager to be open with you?

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[fiercest tiger]

your last comment was the two body shapes WHAT ABOUT THEM ! i asked you if you practise them, your comment seemed alittle rude, but thats cool if you dont want to talk to me! :(

shaolinmaster
correct, just practise right! dont talk to much theories know your practical!! :cool:

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[tnwingtsun]

Hold on,I haven't forgot,
I'll get back with you latter,
just stopped in for a quick look,
and yes,I did see it happen.
FT and meltdawn,shake hands please.
Be back in a while :)

[meltdawn]

FT
First off, I disagreed with your comparison. I did it in an open and sincere fashion and put forth opinion to follow through. None of my post was meant to irritate you.

"your last comment was the two body shapes WHAT ABOUT THEM !"
No, it was not. YOU brought them up. YOU are the sifu. Dangerous to assume I even know of what you speak.

"i asked you if you practise them, your comment seemed alittle rude, but thats cool if you dont want to talk to me!"
You've baited me and numerous others upon this topic more than once, please excuse my conclusion-jumping. Why don't you first share your knowledge on this subject, hopefully I can learn something from it.

Civility IS the name of the game here, so leave out the blatantly condescending emoticons, please.

TN:
"Shake hands"?? You sound remarkably like a moderator! Somebody get a torch and a rope, there's a gonna be a hangin'!

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[tnwingtsun]

TN:
"Shake hands"?? You sound remarkably like a moderator",lol meltdawn,thanks for the comp.

This topic was worth bringing up again in the silence
thats been around.

Spinning top energy,could this analogy fit
into the puzzel?

NOTICE-This post is troll proof,that means
I shall not respond to trolls on this thread. :p

[cricri]

I am very happy than that thread leads to so much passion in the answer.

The answer were very interesting. My way to get on a subject is to answer to basic questions as : what, how, when, who, where...

In that thread I wanted to answer to the question what is jing. As for me jing has the same principle in every single martial art I wanted to know the pak mei approach.

But I knew that defining the jing is not very easy So I wanted to know how to get Jing. Because any exercice has a goal. So knowing what is the exercice can help to know the goal to aim. And knowing the goal of an exercice helps to understand the jing.

I am sure that all your answers will help me to move forward in my practise. So thank for your contribution in my own thruth.