Low sets

[EARTH DRAGON]

I was just wondering how many of you gentleman practice the low set of tai chi?

I was showed it once by my shrfu and since then it has amazed me, I try but find that is is quite hard to relax and focus when your legs are burning and shaking.

He told me of my shy yi (techers teacher) wei xiao tung practicing the 108 under a low 4 foot platform to increase his rooting and lower wei chi absorbtion.

So I was just wondering if you do, or every tried? thanks E.D

[Daniel Madar]

I'm actually amazed when I see people who don't perform it low. My thighs are perpendicular to the ground at knee level in every single whip and fan back through. My head's at pretty much the same height or a little higher in Cloud hands, diagonal flying, white crane spreads its wings, and brush knee.

I just measured, and at the highest point in the form--Brush knee--the top of my head is at 50" inches, which is right around the four foot mark you are talking about.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thats incredible, I am 6'2 and have a extremly hard time relaxing when I am in such low stances. do you perfrom your entire set that way? do you have high health set low strength set and fighting set? I am amazed at my teacher who is about 6" off the ground and eyes closed and very relaxed. How many years have you done tai chi? I have only been doing it 11 years and cannot stay low and relaxed at the same time yet....

[Daniel Madar]

Hmm.

Let's see. I've been doing internal arts for about 4 years. I've been doing that particular form for about 1.5 years, and I'm not done learning the long form (108 moves. I'm at around 98ish).

I'm 5'9" so it's not that big a stretch for me I guess.

I do the Wu Jianquan low, which is what I do for fighting. I try to perform the whole set that way. I forgot that during three kicks, the move preceding requires I stand taller. I suspect the wu jianquan is a bit easier to perform low because of the lean, though the lean also prevents you from going too low. I may go higher, it's hard to say. I've never videotaped myself with a ruler. I just took my Brush knee against a wall and measured.

When I first started, I'd hold each position for about 1 to 3 minutes. Since I started out with about 3 moves, it was not so hard at first. I had to knock the time down after I got to a certain number of moves though, or I got really tired and it took a hell of a long time. I used to move up and down, but it was one of the corrections my teacher threw at me.

"lower have gong fu way" is the exact quote.

I also do a heck of a lot of stance training, whenever I can. At the bus stop, watching tv, talking on the phone. The wife thinks I'm nuts, and so I don't do it in public with her around.

Once I got past the effort part of it--and it can still hurt--the relaxing part was just the next step. Once you can relax, there are further levels of madness.

In the pic in my avatar, that was the first week or so I did the Wu, so it's still high. Now it's longer and lower.

I perform the Hao style for health, which I do high.

[Prairie]

I try to practice my sets such that in a majority of postures my thighs are parallel to the floor. There are places when the levels change such as when you do "rooster stands on one leg" or "dragon poking through the ground"

I believe that at first it's necessary to practice low in order to get the kua working. Later, the postures can rise back up.


Ms.Prairie

[Nexus]

More important than the height of the stance is your ability to breathe to the dantien in a complete sense. If your breathing is cut off, or the chi is unable to circulate then you are losing a large majority of your power. Earth Dragon, to improve your ability to go lower in the form, it is important to do a good deal of stretching, and assure that the meridians in the legs are open ie. meridian massages (tapping down the outside and inside of the legs). Also it is not crucial to the quality of your t'ai chi chuan to have extremely low forms, but to be able to do them gives you an added advantage in terms of flexibility and mobility. The best way to develop the ability to get low though is through stance training and proper stretching, and then just gradually over time. You'll surely get there though if you make it a goal to do so, and work a little bit on it every day.

[Sum Guye]

When Tim Cartmell was studying Yang style in Taiwan the class
had to do the entire form with their thighs parallel to the ground (as slow as ever). It was only part of the training but
went on for months (during which time, he said the soreness never subsided).

Aside from flexibility, practicing this low remarkably strengthens the legs . Anyone who has ever taken a some good hits to the head and body knows that leg strength is vital to fighting.

I've tired walking the circle that way and sometimes practice
Yi Chuan with my thighs parallel to the ground... but I can't do it for long. When Xing-Yi master Liang was doing a seminar in LA a few months ago, he said one of his friends who is 70 years old still walks the circle daily with is thighs parallel to the ground!

Which reminds me of a great quote:
when Tim started studying Tai Ji, he asked his teacher
"How good can I get at Internal Martial Arts"
his teacher then replied
"That depends on how much you're willing to suffer"

[bamboo_ leaf]

Nexus, Pointed out some very important concepts that I really can agree with. :)

I think that it really depends on what the low stances are intended to build. If it is in the context of internal work I don’t think the lowness of the stance is that important.


I look at it this way, the higher level the practice the less visible action displayed everything looks natural but internally very strong.

In my own experience I have seen people with quite low stances, some in our group push with them, they look very strong but the people are still able to neutralize them using a much higher stances, they get blasted out but it's manily with their own power.

I think each way is hard, but very different concept. With a higher stance I think you really must have greater listening and internal skills because there is no room for error. A lower stance affords more power and maybe a greater range of movement using the body as opposed to using the mind.

It is easier to work with and easier to believe because you can feel that you are doing something, this is developing the outside or what some may call external work.

People like to feel sore it’s a sign that they have been conditioned to expect after doing much “work” not many say “ man I really feel relaxed” strange as it may seem they have to be taught what this is.

The internal is not as visible nor are the effects as apparent, the margin for error is greater even if something is being developed you may not feel it for some time. It requires a different mind set. Instead of developing more power your loosing power but developing other skills to replace the more obvious types of strengths. IMHO many do not reach high levels because its to simple.

In my own practice with those that I work with I start them off with low stances to help them to feel the alignment and build some leg strength. Also to what I call heat up the iron turning it to steal later.

If I started them with higher stances then I feel for many they wouldn’t really be able to feel the alignments and wouldn't be able to relax, they need something to relax from or let go until they can devlop the skill of letting go of themselves.

After awhile I only work with them in the higher stances helping them to find and deepen their sense of relaxed alignment.
it seems that feauther work in the lower stances starts to counter act the building process of the mind.

side note:

a deep thank you to the many kind comments on happenings with the leaf. ;)

[EARTH DRAGON]

Bamboo your back! Yes Nexus gave some great advice, so did everyone. I feel very strained physically when I practice the low set and it is extremly hard to relax properly to get through the 108 set. I feel like my students when they first start doing horse stance training.... I have been doing tai chi for a while now but still find the low set the most challenging. I do not know how one can relax when keeping thier crotch 6 inches of the ground while executing slow controlled movements without being distracted by the burning in their legs..... I dont think I will ever get used to it...
As my shrfu used to say.. yes keep trying you getting better....

[Stacey]

Once my three gates are open...I'm invincible.



In the sense that I can do things correctly, feel some chi action and sink low.