Qi and muscle building

[dre_doggX]

Tell me what you know converse thank you

[Repulsive Monkey]

This is an oft repeated topic and always end in the same way, Iternal explanantion and conventional western explanantion to it. People in the past have credibly argued both sides, and a lot of others have severely diverged away from the topic. The basics go something like, weight training and the such and too much exercise increase musclar tension and therefore detracts from internal development, and the other line of fire is by toning the muscles one can effectively aid Qi stimuation in the muscles. Wait and see what results come in, hopefully you might get some new insights.!!

[prana]

RM :) nice introduction. Please help me here with my explanation.

Working out can promote your movement of energies. However, what westerners call Power Training can severely harm the energy and requires it time to rest and regenerate. If not, one finds that they fall ill. At this stage, the Westerners call it, "overtraining".

Often yogins in meditation are told not to lift heavy objects for this reason.

[mad taoist]

My teacher states not to lift anything heavy, including even some isometric excercises ... he said all his xing hi and ba qua masters never hit anything.

Muscle building impedes chi flow.

[hkphooey]

i've always stayed out of this topic when it comes up...but since it's here again, i have a question. and it truly is just a question..something to ponder...i'm not trying to pick a side yet...

if we go back in to chinese history, can't we assume that many of the martial artists of the time also performed physical labor..as their means of survival? i am certain they weren't sitting behind computers all day. and i can't imagine that ALL of them got by just by teaching. perhaps some were farmers? laborers? etc??

and this then begs the questions...do accountants and computer programmers and bank tellers make better internal martial artists than farmers or construction workers?? all because they're not "building" muscles??

intuitively, i sense that at some point, muscular development and lack of flexibility certainly hinder one's progress as an internal artist. however, a lot can be gained by training the body. sometimes i get the feeling that non-lifters think that if they lift they'll look like the cover of some muscle magazine. guess what? i've been lifting for about 15 years and i have never been CLOSE to that. in fact, i'm 5'8" 150, and have barely weighed any more. besides, there are MANY different ways to train!!!! you can customize your training to your specific needs. you don't have to try to be built like an NFL linebacker.

another pondering....i don't know about anyone else, but i do alot of other activities as well (sports, etc). i am not strictly an "internal martial artist". increasing my strength and cardio capacity and flexibility enhances my overall quality of life....in ALL that i do.

i'm purposely not presenting "biophysical" evidence here, or getting involved in the "qi restriction" argument...not because they're not legitimate but because until you experience it for yourself, it's all hypothetical. all i'm trying to do here is step back and take a contextual look...

what are people's thoughts on this...???

[Scarletmantis]

HKphooey,

I am a powerlifter who practices Ba Gua Zhang and Northern Mantis. A strong body makes a strong martial artist. Period.

I have stayed out of these arguments and conversations as well, primarily because most people have already made up thier minds (me for instance), and are unwilling to examine the other side of the coin.

Here's my caveat though; I had a conversation with George Xu, a very respected Internal Arts master, at one of his seminars. George commented that I was a "big boy" and looked very strong. I told George that I lifted wieghts, and asked him if he thought it would hinder my development.

George said, "Problem not big muscles, problem is tight muscles. So long as you stay flexible, no problem."

So there's my two Yen. ; )

[mantis-1]

The way I see it and this is through what I have learnt from my kung fu, it's not what size you are that impedes the flow of chi rather the state you are in. If you are tense whilst performing your moves you restirct the flow of chi, this also applies to lifting weights as you have to be tense whilst lifting etc. But this does not mean that the same person who is lifting weights performs their martial arts in the same way. If you can relax whilst performing/training the flow of chi is the same as the next person muscles or no muscles...thats just my opinion, the key is in relaxing.

[hkphooey]

hey you mantis dudes...thanks for your replies...

even though i haven't stated it, i think it's clear what side of the debate i stand on, but i have another question...

i totally get the size versus tension thing. what do you think about tension that results from the neuro adaptive aspects of training (muscle tone, etc...)? do you think that amount of constant tension/contraction impedes??

i agree with you both, and appreciate your input. what i personally see as the biggest drawback to lifting weights (in the context of martial arts) isn't the muscle/strength issue but the "response" issue. that is, you learn to respond to resistance in a certain way when you rely upon muscular strength. in martial arts, your response is almost the OPPOSITE of this. so it's really about being able to train your body to respond in two different ways, based on the different circumstances. this isn't 100% true, of course, because principles CAN be carried over from one to the other. i think it holds in general though. wouldn't you say that the "power" in powerlifting results from the tension you can create in you muscles?

[Scarletmantis]

I must keep this short, 'cause I'm at work.

Basically, proper powerlifting technique is not all that different from internal power generation. If you are tense, your antagontistic muscles will impede the ability of your agonistic muscles to take your limbs from point A to point B.

The more "relaxed" you are, the less your muscles fight eachother in a given movement. This translates into more power (force you can apply to movement) from less muscle. Since powerlifting is a sport in which the athlete is attempting to quickly move the heaviest wieght possible, the athlete must learn to relax his antagonistic muscles, in order to lift in the most efficient possible manner.

It is a common mistake to assume that the tense, inflexible muscle that tends to result from improper training is the norm. In point of fact, when I am relaxed, my muscles are soft and pliant. Habitual tension is not only unhealthy, it is detrimental to both internal martial arts and wieght training. Not to mention the negative impact this tension will have on one's health.

[IronFist]

Internal masters avoid weights?

Well, if I ever get in a fight with an internal master I'll just throw something heavy on him. :D

Iron