What makes a good martial artist?

[wushu chik]

What do you think are the qualities of a GOOD martial artist? What traits do you think a martial artist should have that would make him/her a GOOD martial artist?? I posted this in the Shaolin forum...but i thought it would be a good one here as well!!! Just something we were talking about in class today!!

~Wen~

Depends on what context.

Since I'm aspiring to be a sifu myself, I'll take my context as the INDIVIDUAL.

If a person is getting the most out of his ability by giving kung fu his full intensity when he trains, then I'd say that such a person is a "good martial artist".

[EARTH DRAGON]

humbleness
kindness
openmindedness
pateints
compassion
admiration
will
intent
dicipline
respect
just to name a few

[redfist]

practice

[Mr. Nemo]

Most of these posts sound like they're describing what makes a good person, not a good martial artist. In my opinion, a good martial artist has the ability to win fights.

[Paul]

I agree with Mr. Nemo. That's exactly what I was going to post, but I got beaten to it.

[Satanachia]

What makes a good martial artist is that they can win fights.

What makes a GREAT martial artist, is that they can win fights and they've learnt all the qualities that Earth Dragon posted along the way.

[scotty1]

A good martial artist is somebody who can utilize their martial skills to beat another in personal combat.
And, oh, bugger it, I agree with Satanachia. :)

[9dragonshijin]

Masters of the lost track school said:
Patience
Courage
Perseverence
Intelligence

...and a large collection of Bruce Lee on VHS:D

[Kristoffer]

LOL :D

[Tae Li]

This is a really good question actually, a simple question that may carry many answers, but I do agree with Satanachia also.

A good martial artist isnt neccessarily someone who is just patient, and moral and dicilplined and all the rest of it, but obviously someone who trains so much to be the best that they can be.

Not only to be the best at martial arts but also the best at many other things. Thats what my instructor says and I reckon its great that he says it, cos it really inspires all the youngsters to win in tournaments and any fighting challenge but also to excel at school and so fourth.

yeah, but reasonably question:)

Tae Li;)

[Robinf]

I disagree with Mr. Nemo.

I depends on your definition of Martial Artist. Are you seeing the whole person? or are you just looking at they're ability to fight? Is their ability to fight what makes them a martial artist? Or is it the human being in the martial art what makes them a martial artist?

I tend to look at martial artist as someone who has martial arts inside them and trains in some martial art discipline. Not only can they fight, but they can not fight.

Robin

[shaolinboxer]

My experience has lead me to believe that anyone can learn to fight.

What makes a good MA? I define this by the kind of people I would like to learn from, teach, and train with.

Open minded, generous, respectful, considerate, intelligent, clever, light hearted, dedicated, curious, skeptical, ambitious, strong, balanced people with sneaky hands and warm hearts.

[guohuen]

I think a good martial artist is someone who has accurately identified their Dosha and work with the attributes of it to overcome the "defects" of it.

[Ray Pina]

While I agree with Earth Dragon's list, not just for martial artists, but as a person in general, I think it lacks that inner substance of what distinguishes a good martial artist from just a martial artists.

My views of this have changed over the years, from black belt days of Isshin-Ryu and how many boards one can break or how high they can kick or how low or long they can hold their stance.

So here's my list:

High-level, effective, technology.

Control of their body and mind (being balanced in both).

You may not be able to get these without disciplined, determined practice, but you may practice that way and not obtain this. Without those two qualities, the ability to put martial principles to use affectively, which requires balanced control of your momentum, and a clear mind that does not fall into social traps of being talking into a fight, or being fearful when having to act; without those, I don't think there is much substance no matter the style.

I think back, and I did think this way when I was a kid studying karate. Kicks and punching are superficial, its what's behind them that matters.

[Shaolindynasty]

The ability to win fights doesn't make a person a good martial artist it makes them a good fighter. A martial artist is someone who lives with the intent to cultivate and master themselves through the vehicle of martial arts.

"Most of these posts sound like they're describing what makes a good person, not a good martial artist"

The qualities that make a good martial artist are the same as those that make a good person. Aren't martial artists people? Or are we some special new breed that is above everybody else so we should posses different morals etc.? Of course not cause that would be ridiculous:D

[Ray Pina]

I think we are special.;)

[rubthebuddha]

evolution: was that you that sat next to me on the short bus years ago? :cool:

[GreyMystik]

i'm with shaolindynasty on this one. a person who wins fights is a good fighter, not necessarily a good martial artist. perhaps they are a person who is a good fighter using martial arts even... but a good martial artist, TO ME, implies that "something more" quality... the discipline, responsibility, integrity, etc to carry on the 'art' of the martial arts... *shrug* to each their own i suppose :)

[Ray Pina]

How about this: all of those qualities can be in a Wushu form stylist, but would you consider them a MARTIAL artists?

Being able to handle oneself in combat is a pre-requisite before I would even consider labeling someone a "decent" martial artist. How nice he is, how much time he spends training is secondary.

I actually have a problem with that mentality, because you hear all the time: "It took me 5 years to get ..." Well dumb-a$$, not everyone is so stupid. Maybe it will only take me a month to "get it." More of coarse to master.

I find people try to limit poeple all the time, try to place their restrictions on others. Time, discipline, is secondary.

I know people who smoke, drink, sex addicts, not necessarily disciplined people, but they will go into a local Dojo and beat all the top students. I'd have to say it, the people I'm thinking about now are pretty good martial artists. There disciplined differently. They'll bang away at steel bags all day to strike harder. Maybe not too healthy or smart, but committed.

To me, Martial Artists is another word for DEDICATED WARRIOR, one who is mastering, making a scientific art out of warfare.

[shaolinboxer]

"How about this: all of those qualities can be in a Wushu form stylist, but would you consider them a MARTIAL artists? "

Yes. However, I would not consider them a combat specialist.

[David Jamieson]

Q: What makes a good martial artist?

A: A good teacher.

peace

[Chinwoo-er]

Here is my two cents worth of comment.

I believe right now we have two main kind of "martial artists". The "warrior" type, and the "spiritual/moral man" type. The warrior type are those who are commited to combat. timing, power, speed, teachniques, combinations, effectivness, reaction, forms, etc. How the power is generated, when to pose and attack, that kind of thing.

The spiritual/moral man type are those who looks into the values within/behind martial arts. All the chracteristics told above, so I won't make a fool of myself saying them again. What I would want to comment on however, is the these values varies between styles and cultures. Different culture demands a different set of values behind the martial arts. Some asks that one remains at pease when the body is capable of war. Some ( though no longer in existance as far as I know ) ask for the practitioner to constantly be active in war of some sort. Depends on the society really.....

To be honest, I really doubt we are ever just one or the other. as "martial artist", we are always somehow connected to both of them.

Now I wish to give a third definition of martial artist. This one is more like a "scholar". Those who studies a vast variety of styles. Although no being able to master them all, they are still in a competant position to fight with them. Yet at the same time, being able to analyse them in terms of their strengths, weaknesses, characteristics, unique moves, reason behind those moves, etc. Seeing the differences and similarities between them is one of the unique points about this type. Kind of like the warrior type but the difference in this type is that a warrior focusses on the self-developement and mastering of their own skills while the scholar looks at the community and collectiveness of martial arts. Kinds of drops the concept of individualality of training.

actually, I correct myself, 1.5 cents worth. 2 cents is too much :)

[Merryprankster]

What evolutionfist said (never thought I'd say that, huh e-fist?)

This is something that I sort of glossed over in an unrelated thread.

There is a giant pussification that has taken place in the martial arts by emphasizing this avenue as the right path for the development of traits such as humility, spiritual enlightenment, self improvement, when they should first and foremost, be about H2H combat proficiency.

The below is something I posted on another thread, but same topic, generally.

Martial Arts are martial. They are first and foremost that, or else they wouldn't be martial arts. The spiritual stuff is an add-on. An afterthought, or perhaps, intrinsic only because of the culture that developed it.

People seeking to gain spiritual understanding from study of the martial arts, who do not couple it with intense spiritual training, are basically dabblers--hobbyists. This is fine, if it helps you live your life, as long as you aren't fooling yourself (I've met more than one MAist who seems to equate experience with improved spiritual awakening...) In other words, if you are going to MA PRIMARILY for spiritual growth, you need to sit down and re-evaluate your schedule.

It is intensely difficult for most to attain spiritual enlightenment, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. It contains the same amount of dedication and discipline as any MA does.

I wouldn't go to seminary to learn physical combat.
I wouldn't go to a MA school to become enlightened.

Now, If you are a monk of some sort (shaolin type), then this is all you do... you eat, sleep, and breathe spirituality in your training and daily existence. But AGAIN, this is HARD WORK. It's not a some of the time thing... it's an all the time thing. Most of us can't possibly do it, or more likely, I should say, most of us won't. And even the ones who become monks aren't always considered enlightened by the end of their lives!

That doesn't make that monk superior--it makes his life different. He makes his life training and spirituality to the exclusion of other things in life. That's ok, it's his choice. How about being a father? Or a good husband? Is he better than they are? Or maybe the surgeon who saves lives daily?

Not better--different.

My only point in this is to point out how hard it is to master something, be it physical, mental, or spiritual, and that if you go to ONE thing, say the physical (martial arts) mostly for its relatively minor spiritual component, then you are deluding yourself.

Unfortunately, many people fool themselves this way.

It's the responsibility of the instructors to explain that to potential students--that if they are looking for spiritual awakening, the Zen class meets at 1230 at the local Y every other Saturday.

[Wu Wei]

Uhh... Is the question "what makes a great martial artist" or "how can you tell if someone i a great martial artist" ?
Because people seem to be answering different questions.

I completely agree that a great martial artist is someone who wins fights (or is capable).

I think we need to keep in mind that being a good person is different than being a good martial artist, because if they were the same that would mean the pope is a martial artist (and a really good one at that).

As for what "makes" a good/great martial artist...
10% information
20% time
30% sweat
40% pain/discomfort

That's what I think.

[jon]

I think you can be a fantastic martial artist and still be a totaly evil sadistic maniac. Anyone who thinks otherwise only needs read a little of many styles historys. The history of martial arts is full of brilliant fighters who basicaly just liked to fight.
Yang Lui Chan of Yang Tai Chi was famous the land over for his combat skill and tai chi but he was so bad tempered most of his students couldnt handle to spend to much time around him, so the only people who fully learnt his art where his son and grandson. There is a good reason real Yang style is closely kept.
Bak Mei the legendary inventor of White Eyebrow style was said to have killed off many of the southern shoalin rebels after being contracted by the govenment.
Musashi went slowly nuts and began to think he was invicible becoming totaly obsessed with sword skills he began to challenge all over Japan.
Hung Hei Gwun after seeing his temple burned and his brothers killed started to teach his once sacred arts to milita in the hopes of rebelian.

These are not acts of people who were totaly in control of there emotions and feelings. They were just normal people with extraordinary abilitys in difficault situations. They were all also creaters of styles and brilliant men in there own right both as thinkers and fighters, they just did a bit of the old ultraviolence on the side. No one is perfect, not even these great men.

You dont suddenly get nice by learning to fight well, the only thing that makes someone a great martial artist is the ability to use there art in combat.
How you become a good person is an inner struggle, thinking you learning to kick and punch helps is only deluding yourself. In reality the more you know the more dangerous you are and the more your charactor has to be called into play.
Someone who is both a great martial artist and a great teacher and friend is a rarity in this world and all of us who have these aspects in a teacher are very lucky.

[9dragonshijin]

I agree with the fighting part ...to a certain point. This is not "Outlaws of the Marsh", most of us are not fighting daily for our lives. Truthfully, how many people here get to actual blows with a total stranger on a regular basis? If you do, there are meds for that. Makes sense to try and take what you learn for MA and apply it to other parts of your life. Work, family etc. Or you could just go around beating the crap out of people, that sounds fun too.:D

[Kaitain(UK)]

I think it depends on what you're learning - a JMA has a far closer association between martial skills and budo, they are entwined.

Non-monastic CMA styles are utterly different - I don't think it is nearly so important to the CMA to possess a 'code', kung-fu seems the most critical edict - dedicated study - that doesn't imply a set code of ethics/behaviour. I would say there is always a scholastic flavour to CMAs though - it is more than technique...

The Phillipino styles seem to be predicated on survival - paramount is ability and skill.

I think in the West we lump it all together and have an impression of martial arts as a whole - yet in my Karate class we have a short fat blue belt who can't kick over his knee. He's achieved his belt because it recognises his progression on a personal level - it's taken him 3 times longer than anyone else but his dedication and discipline are rewarded as much as his ability.

My personal view is that the ability to win a fight is irrelevant to being a good MA - but I am strongly influenced by Japanese ideas of what an MA is.

[Richie]

Having a high level of skill in the style you study. Your manner doesnt matter. There were a lot of A holes and hot heads in CMA's history.

[David Jamieson]

fighting is one thing. children fight daily, but boxers....

the art and science of fighting is another.

no-one would be anything without their teachers. even so called "naturals" require temprament with the guidance of another.

the fighter within, requires the fighter outside. All the heart in the world will not develop without the proper guidance and technique.

Newton said -"we only see so far because we stand on the shoulders of giants"-.
Newton was a smart guy.

peace

[shaolinboxer]

"Q: What makes a good martial artist?

A: A good teacher. "

If only that were always true. Teachers can only do so much.

So then, what makes a good teacher...new thread for this I think.

[Ray Pina]

According to Webster:

Martial: adj. 1) Of or relating to, or suited for war or a warrior. 2) relating to an army or to military life. 3) Experinced in or inclined to war.

Art: n. 1) A skill aquired by experince, study or observation. 2) a Branch of learning. 3) an occupation requiring requiring knowledge or skill.

By these standars, I would say WuShu as we know it in the USA, does not apply. This is what I think of when the word martial artist is brought up. True, there should be that other side, peaceful, to balance out the puruit of trying to tame violence.

I have to admit, when I was younger and learning Isshin-Ryu, meditation, bowing, and a general calmess was enphasised. I haven't gotten that in gung-fu, but, at the same time I'm an adult know and I guess its assumed poeple have their act together by now. Or one would hope.

[shaolinboxer]

I don't don't think that is assumed at all.