Attention Hung Gar Stylists

[diego]

I posted this at hungga.net anythoughts, known facts???..

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diego
New Member



Posts: 15
From: Canada
Registered: Jan 2002
Posted - 24 Jan 2002 : 07:28:34
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Wushu Kung-Fu Qiqong - September 1998


Wong Fei Hung Famous Hero, Brilliant Mind

By Pedro Cepero

Although we look at Wong Fei Hung, the hero, some people never take the time to look past the fantasies and realize the real reason why he was so famous. Wong Fei Hung, the man, had a brilliant mind. He possessed the insight, knowledge, experience and skills to create and elevate Hung Ga to the highest level. He combined the art of Luk Ah Choy with the connection, stance and iron bridges of Tit Kiu Sam, and added it to the techniques of the Hung Moon Association and his own techniques to create what we know today as the orthodox version of Hung Ga. But this is just the icing on the cake.

Inside his mind he was able to take the five animals and combine them with the Five Elements, which plays a heavily important role in the Chinese culture. This new system used the five sounds to improve the strength and function of the body's major and minor organs; by applying different types of body connection with the sounds he was able to create different types of power. Wong also added the Seven Star Fist Philosophy, which includes the five elements (and refers to everything in life) and the sun and moon. The sun and moon was a representation of the fight for freedom (to restore the Ming Dynasty). This adds moral character to the art, and in fact the sun and moon philosophy is present in many movements in the forms./


Wong Kiew Kit INTERVIEW:Answer 6
"Sap Ying Khuen" or "Ten Forms Set" is actually not from traditional Hoong Ka Kungfu. It was invented only recently (about 1950s or 1960s) by Kwan Tuck Heng, who was a master not of Hoong Ka Kungfu but of White Crane Kungfu. But Kwan Tuck Heng acted so well as the legendary Wong Fei Hoong in many Hong Kong Cantonese kungfu movies that many people thought he was a Hoong Ka master.

The "Ten Forms Set" draws inspiration from the five Shaolin animals of dragon, snake, tiger, leopard and crane, and the five elemental processes of metal, water, wood, fire and earth.

Personally I do not think this "Ten Forms Set" add any value to Hoong Ka Kungfu; rather, it distracts from it. Hoong Ka Kungfu is famous for its specialization in the tiger and crane patterns; which have proven to be excellent for combative as well as non-combative functions. Adding three more animal styles only serve to undermine this specialization.

The skills and techniques represented by the five elemental processes of metal, water, wood, fire and earth are already found in Hoong Ka Kungfu. Moreover, I find its mode of classification into the five processes rather artificial, and often does not agree with the established five elemental processes philosophy.

For example, a thrust punch which manifests an arrow shooting out, is classified as a fire process because of an expression "fire arrow", but in the traditional Chinese philosophy, "fire" symbolizes rising. "Clamping" an opponent's punch is classified as "wood" because this pattern is named "technique of clamping wood", but in the philosophy "wood" symbolizes growth.\


Jon from kfo:
From what i know which could very possibly be more legend than fact.
One of the 10 tigers was a Lama Ga expert and Wong Fai Hung was Wong Kai Yings son who was also a Tiger. Wong was taught lama ga and longfist techniques from the style and i would venture to say a lot of some of the elemental boxing in Hung is influenced by lama gar. My knowledge of this though im afraid is pretty limited, Steve may very well more.
One thing i do know is that my school and i would venture to say most Hung schools have a deep respect for Lama Ga its a powerfull system and has much in common with Hungs logic in terms of combat.
I would be a fool to try and tell you what exactly was shared becouse im simply not that sure.
My sigung even taught a little Lama Ga seperately to Hung, though exactly what his knowledge was im not sure, he mainly used it as an introduction. Ive been shown a few moves and it certainly fits in well with Hungs movement.
Plus when a lama ga guy starts swinging those malet fists you better start moving thats my best advice./




diego
New Member



Posts: 15
From: Canada
Registered: Jan 2002
Posted - 24 Jan 2002 : 07:42:07
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I have been told by about 9 different sources, hung gar and hop gar may have mingled at one point...Originally i read that wong fei hung and hop ga gm wong yan lam were peers, and that hop gave the longfist and hung gave hop the tiger claws; Then i was told, it wasnt wong fei hung....i think i was told at one point it was the teacher of fei hungs father, then im told it was possibly his father, who exchanged with hopgar.

Now my hypothesis isthat if what wong kiew kit states is reality, maybe the hung/hop story came from the original monkey king kwon tak hing's contribution to hung gar???.

Any1 know what crane tak studied,tibetan or chinese?, he's most famous nowadays as the original taishing/pekwa gm.

IF THIS IS TRUE, AND ME LIVING IN VANCOUVER BC, I BETTER GET MY BUTT TO THE CURRENT MONKEY KINGS SCHOOL, WICH IS TEN MILES FROM ME,,,how cool is that.

yours truly
PEEING MY PANT'S IN ANTICIPATION OF REPLY'S..8)

[Paul Skrypichayko]

You are confusing Kwan Tak Hing with Kun Duk Hoi (Hing?).

Kwan Tak Hing was the famous actor who played Wong Fei Hung in the old movies. His background was in crane style, but also had some hung gar experience from Chan Hon Chung (who was also a choreographer for Shaw Bros back in the 1950's. Kwan Tak Hing was more of an actor than a fighter. He did a book with Leung Ting on his own "ten formed fist of hung" (something like that title).

Kun Duk Hoi (Hing?) is the guy from Dai Sing Pek Kwa.

[diego]

was the monkey king a famous opera performer, or he was just famous as the monkey king, i confused it by thinking kan tak hoi was a celebrity, well kick me in the ass and call me dangle the wonder mule.

[bean curd]

the monkey king is very famous in chinese lit. so you have to make sure you don't get confused.

paul nailed it in one on ken tak hoi and kwan tak hing.

as to ken tak hoi being a celebrity, well in martial arts circles he was extremely well known and creatly respected, the man was in all acounts an amazing marital artist.

[diego]

ifso thats why i got it confused, memory bank selectively mixing past read articles.

[jon]

Just to make things REALLY confusing...
The grandmaster of Tai Shing Pek Kwar is Chan Hon Cheng and he is frequently refered to as 'The monkey king'.
He is also a sworn brother of Lum Jo and both Lum Jo and YC Wong learnt kung fu from him.
Certain Lum Jo linages even have a Tai Shing broadsword set.

As to Kwan Tak Hing creating Sup Ying, im not sure where you found that quote but thats totaly incorrect to the best of my knowledge. The set has been in Hung since the days of Wong Fai Hung and Lam Sai Wing, the seeds for it where around even longer as its based on an orginal five animals form which ive seen demonstrated by Jui Wei on vid. That set was mostly chi gung from the iron wire plus a quick five animals segment. The form was further expanded by Wong Fai Hung [it was either him or his father] to include the five elements and was changed quite consideribly. His comments on the 'specialty' of hung being in only tiger and crane are also off the mark. All Hung forms have the whole five animals in them, they all have a different focus. By that logic we should also remove Tit Sing as its mainly dragon. The comments regarding Sup Ying Kuen i would openly question.
Kwan Tak Hing could hardly qualify as a Hung Ga master[though he a master in other systems] and the possibility of him making a form which is considered high level Hung is pretty far fetched.
He has also done a books on a 10 animal form which is nothing like Hung Ga and based on Northen Shaolin.
Just some more confusing history:D

[TenTigers]

I agree with jon, Wonk Kiew Kit is way off the mark here. Hung-Ga is mistakenly called Tiger/Crane style, but is in reality the Five Animal Style of Siu-Lum, and Tiger/Crane is simply a popularly demonstrated form. The Tang-Fong branch's Five animal form includes the 5 elements. The Ten Shaped Fist, usually seen in the Lam Sai-Wing branch has a slightly different variation on the animals and expands on the element punches section, no great mystery. Having studied both branches, I feel I can speak with some authority on this topic (not alot, just some-I am not claiming by any means mastery, just a little experience, that's all)

[bean curd]

this thread is getting confussing hahaha, to much info going on in too many directions.

so lets clarify before this gets out of hand.

there are a few sup ying kuen, and for that matter a few ng ying kuen, there is a sup ying kuen created by kwan tak hing, and this is not to be confussed with the sup ying in the hung gar system.

the sup ying created by kwan tak hing is called hung kuen but it is a completly different character, so don't get the two confussed.

chan sau chung sifu is most certainly called " the monkey king ", which follows the great tradition of ken tak hoi sifu, who was also known as " the monkey king ", but this name given to these skilled players " is not " the same monkey king name or person portraid in chinese lit.

as i have said before there are two monkey skill styles one called tai shing and another called " young monkey ". these are two recongnised skills of monkey play, not to be confussed with skills used in modern gung fu or wushu as it is known generally.

the skills of both systems are differing both in play and forms.

it must not be forgotten too that chan sau chung sifu was also well known and had many friends one in particular also being the highley skilled and known fighter of hung kuen chan hon chung sifu, but it is very true that lam jo sifu is close to tai shing but through ken tak hoi sifu also.

ken tak hoi's skills where seen well from the southern provinces through the three province gymnasium in kwandong, ( not going into his acknowledges skills of sword etc which was before he went and gave assistance in the gym ) and also through his close ties with lam tsai wing in canton and also with him in hong kong when they both where also there.

it is through this relationship of lam tsai wing and ken tak hoi that close ties where forged.

it is without doubt though the broadsword form in lam jo lineage is pure tai shing which he learnt with skill from tai shing.

as to the name of hok ying kuen regards to hung kuen this is for two reasons, one of the main reasons being lam tsai wing used this to describe his gym and also because of the forms known with hung kuen the fu hok ying is the more pleasing to the eye when performing, or so i am told, i love them all hahaha.

cheers

[jon]

Thanks for the clarification, you sound like you have a better handle on this than i do;)

[diego]

HARRY WU/NG-YIM- "CRAZY"MING...HOP GAR GM

any idea if he was buddys with lamsaiwing or others you mentioned..

KING OF CANTON STAFF what i read is HARRYS TRADEMARK??
ever heard anything on this

HARRY WU WAS THE SIFU KILLED IN SANFRANCISCO over triad matter's??.http://www.hopgar.com/history/

[bean curd]

my skills do not lay in lama pai, so really it would be more proper to ask others in the gar on internal relationship.

with hung kuen though, one must not forget that supbaht lohan, was introduced to hung kuen very early on in its history, and way before it was systemised by wong fei hung.

lama pai skills are certainly in there, but from a physical perspective, they look the same but faht is totally different, it only is logical that this would happen due to the history ( depending on which one you want to follow or has been transimitted to you through your sifu ), will bring a different outcome to questions asked.

at the later stages of 1800's and into the early 1900's southern and northern style sifu's where travelling greatly for many many reasons, and canton was a melting pot for many many great martial artists.

there where many schools opened and closed, the three province gym for example didn't stay open for too long, only a few years actually, mainy political reasons and some personal issues.

as to who met who and who transmitted to whom, well this could/would open up a can or worms hahaha. the names alone of those who arn't even mentioned in most mags on hung kuen would fill many pages, so your question would be difficult to answer or more correctly said, confirmed and established.

there is no doubt though from all that i have been told/discussed/read/studied etc that lama pai came known through sing lung and his selected pupils, many great in their own right.

as to skills of sifu being given names, this in most parts does not mean that they where actually the TOP person in that skill, but can also mean they where well known to have such skills beyond the normal maritial artisits of that time.

i could name 20 or more sifu who where known as " southern kings of staff in canton alone ", so you have to be aware the names are given for reasons different to what you may initially think.

broadbased answer i know but all i wish to say, maybe someone else can assist you .

[DF]

bean curd,

Only 20 southern kings of staff ? Everyone I ran across has a King of something in their lineage, lol;)

There are just as much kings back then as Grandmasters nowaday. Different name for different time I guess.

DF


Sorry folks, don't mind me, just feel like being bad tonight.