Att. Tai Shing/pek Wa Stylist's

[diego]

KWAN TAK HING, any idea what style of crane he studied, also other methods inwich he was proficient, i know hes the original monkey king, any links online with a full-bio.
thank you:

Wushu Kung-Fu Qiqong - September 1998


Wong Fei Hung Famous Hero, Brilliant Mind

By Pedro Cepero

Although we look at Wong Fei Hung, the hero, some people never take the time to look past the fantasies and realize the real reason why he was so famous. Wong Fei Hung, the man, had a brilliant mind. He possessed the insight, knowledge, experience and skills to create and elevate Hung Ga to the highest level. He combined the art of Luk Ah Choy with the connection, stance and iron bridges of Tit Kiu Sam, and added it to the techniques of the Hung Moon Association and his own techniques to create what we know today as the orthodox version of Hung Ga. But this is just the icing on the cake.

Inside his mind he was able to take the five animals and combine them with the Five Elements, which plays a heavily important role in the Chinese culture. This new system used the five sounds to improve the strength and function of the body's major and minor organs; by applying different types of body connection with the sounds he was able to create different types of power. Wong also added the Seven Star Fist Philosophy, which includes the five elements (and refers to everything in life) and the sun and moon. The sun and moon was a representation of the fight for freedom (to restore the Ming Dynasty). This adds moral character to the art, and in fact the sun and moon philosophy is present in many movements in the forms./


Wong Kiew Kit INTERVIEW:Answer 6
"Sap Ying Khuen" or "Ten Forms Set" is actually not from traditional Hoong Ka Kungfu. It was invented only recently (about 1950s or 1960s) by Kwan Tuck Heng, who was a master not of Hoong Ka Kungfu but of White Crane Kungfu. But Kwan Tuck Heng acted so well as the legendary Wong Fei Hoong in many Hong Kong Cantonese kungfu movies that many people thought he was a Hoong Ka master.

The "Ten Forms Set" draws inspiration from the five Shaolin animals of dragon, snake, tiger, leopard and crane, and the five elemental processes of metal, water, wood, fire and earth.

Personally I do not think this "Ten Forms Set" add any value to Hoong Ka Kungfu; rather, it distracts from it. Hoong Ka Kungfu is famous for its specialization in the tiger and crane patterns; which have proven to be excellent for combative as well as non-combative functions. Adding three more animal styles only serve to undermine this specialization.

The skills and techniques represented by the five elemental processes of metal, water, wood, fire and earth are already found in Hoong Ka Kungfu. Moreover, I find its mode of classification into the five processes rather artificial, and often does not agree with the established five elemental processes philosophy.

For example, a thrust punch which manifests an arrow shooting out, is classified as a fire process because of an expression "fire arrow", but in the traditional Chinese philosophy, "fire" symbolizes rising. "Clamping" an opponent's punch is classified as "wood" because this pattern is named "technique of clamping wood", but in the philosophy "wood" symbolizes growth.\

[firepalm]

Kwan Tak Hing did the Bak Hok Pai White Crane (from Lion's Roar as with Hap Ga & Lama). Kwan's was not the other crane from Fukien. Sorry but don't recall the name of his teacher. He was chosen for the role of Wong Fei Hung, not because of any martial arts background, but simply because he looked very similar to the actual Wong Fei Hung. Hope that helps you.:cool:

[Richie]

I never heard of him being named "Monkey King". The only recent people I have heard REALLY being named "Monkey King" were Si Gung Chan Sau Chung and MAster Xiao Ying Peng.

[Daredevil]

Do you mean Ken Tak Hoi? **** these weird spellings. If I recall correctly he's the one that put Tai Shing and Pek Kwar together to form the Tai Shing Pek Kwar school. Don't know much else about him.

The Tai Shing system was not invented by him, however. It's a much older, pre-shaolin system.

[diego]

firepalm you answered the question perfectly, do you study hung or hop??
what do you think of wong kiew kit and pedros conflicting writings.

[diego]

please grill your memorybank, i need to find info on his teacher.
know any sitelinks,in general:cool:

[Richie]

I'm sorry, but the so call Tai Shing style you learned seems like BS.

[firepalm]

Daredevil - Kou Sze developed his monkey style & subsequently called it Tai Shing. Kou Sze was friends with Ken Tak Hoi's father (a Pek Kwar / Pi Gua master) & taught Ken Tak Hoi. Ken Tak Hoi merged the two systems (along with a few other styles).

Diego, no I don't do Hung or Hop Ga, although I did learn Tiger & Crane form along time ago. As to the two articles, my understanding was that Hung Ga contains five animals & five elements. Kwan Tak Hing however did a ten animal routine which was not Hung Ga. Some mistakenly associated Kwan's ten animal routine with Hung Ga because of Kwan's prominent roles as Wong Fei Hung. As to Kwan's White Crane teacher, sorry I really can't recall.... :(

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Richie
I'm sorry, but the so call Tai Shing style you learned seems like BS.


Well.............................I wouldn't be so quick to make that call.

There is literature on monkey styles that are over 1k years old. The styles that formed tai shing pek kwar may not be that old, but that doesn't mean monkey styles didn't exist before then.


Anyhow, I would rather see what the style looks like before I make the thumbs up or down on it.

:D

[Richie]

Im not saying there was no monkey style before TSPK, but Dare Devil's style's history is the same but hundreds of years earlier. Si Jo Kau Tze is the founder of his style but also Si Tai Gung Kan Tak Hoi's teacher too. I didn't know Si Jo was that old(well over 1500 years).

[Daredevil]

"I'm not saying there was no monkey style before TSPK, but Dare Devil's style's history is the same but hundreds of years earlier. Si Jo Kau Tze is the founder of his style but also Si Tai Gung Kan Tak Hoi's teacher too. I didn't know Si Jo was that old(well over 1500 years)."

The issue is that TSPK claims Tai Shin to be much younger than it is according to the actual lineage holder of Tai Shing, Si-Gung Leng, who lives in Malaysia.

I suggest you take the matter up with him and learn just how BS his family-style is. If you haven't crossed hands with the lineage, don't run your mouth.

I'm not associated with that school anymore though I've got only good things to talk about the Grandmaster. He's _very_ impressive.

The most I've heard of the lineage matter is that he's said some of his students ran off and started a new school, believing they'd learned all there is to the style. So, there's some troubles in the history and I believe the trouble to be associated with TSPK. However, I'm not privy to that stuff considering the Tai Shing style is a family-style and rather hush-hush .. and considering there is some bad blood around, I'm going to take anyone's version of the "truth" with a grain of salt, including my own views.

So, this is only one side of the story:

"Daredevil - Kou Sze developed his monkey style & subsequently called it Tai Shing. Kou Sze was friends with Ken Tak Hoi's father (a Pek Kwar / Pi Gua master) & taught Ken Tak Hoi. Ken Tak Hoi merged the two systems (along with a few other styles)."

I wouldn't be so quick to believe it, though. Other sources say there has been Monkey boxing before Ken Tak Hoi's time, and that it began to be called Tai Shing Mun only after the introduction of Buddhism to China.

Of course, as it is with these things, some things will remain mysteries. Choose your own version of things and above all just make sure the style you choose to practise is genuine -- by making sure you can apply it in practise not theory -- and stay out of politics.

[diego]

as long as these things have been said before the other things opposing these things, But when these things have only been said since 70s to the 80s, then i think we may have a problem, if you dont know talk to gene, he will point you to the link for you to deal with this issue, Buy the mag and all will be satisfied.

[Daredevil]

The mag doesn't get spread around in Finland, so can't buy it and I'm not interested enough to go to the trouble of ordering overseas (sorry!).

So I dunno what's been said "only during 70's and 80's", but what I know is that slightly before that time the style was taught to the first two westerners and brought to Germany, from where it spread to Finland. So, my information comes through that.

If Gene or anyone wants more information, I'd be happy to help with what I know and to point researchers in the correct direction to gather information on the other side of the issue.

Whatever the truth is, for what its worth, it will not be understood by listening to only one side of the argument.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Daredevil


........the actual lineage holder of Tai Shing, Si-Gung Leng, who lives in Malaysia.



Daredevil,

Do you know your Si-gung's full name? My curiousity is at an all time high, being that my monkey system also has line roots in malaysia.

[kungfulover]

Whatever the truth is, for what its worth, it will not be understood by listening to only one side of the argument.

Daredevil, you are absolutely rite...SO....



........the actual lineage holder of Tai Shing, Si-Gung Leng, who lives in Malaysia.

This side of story is probably BS TOO...

time will tell.............

[SifuAbel]

:rolleyes: Picador


and you are an authority?

[Daredevil]

I'm racking my brain, but can't call up the full name. I'll have to ask someone who'll know when I get the chance.

For a picture of the guy (and brief info on the style .. in Finnish, heh), go to http://koti.welho.com/phovi/TaiShinMun/

It's an interesting subject altogether, though.

[Richie]

I have a question for you Dare Devil. When did this guy or his student come to Finland? Was it after the late 60's? If so, that seem a little interesting. That was when Si Gung Chan Sau Chung and his top student tour that area are won many championships. It seems like your teacher someone saw them, thought he could do it, and then made up something.

[guohuen]

The five animals and the five elements were combined in a set by Lam Saiwing, student of Wong Feihung

[Daredevil]

"I have a question for you Dare Devil. When did this guy or his student come to Finland? Was it after the late 60's? If so, that seem a little interesting. That was when Si Gung Chan Sau Chung and his top student tour that area are won many championships. It seems like your teacher someone saw them, thought he could do it, and then made up something."

Don't know about Chan Sau Chung touring this ver area, doubt it though, since Finland (specifically) really doesn't get a lot of this type of tournaments (except these days Finnfights, which is a MMA tourney). Maybe the Scandinavian area, or just Europe in general. However, the point isn't my former teacher or even his teacher, but GM Leng (who I have met at a several day seminar in Finland).

And lemme clear something up. Bernd Kriesel and a friend of his (Sascha something, I recall), two martial artists from Germany, went over to far east to find a genuine CMA master (this was sometime in the 70's, I guess -- sorry about not having specific dates), having spent their youths building up skill in MA in Germany and wanting more. When finally there, they went through a lot of masters since most of whom they found were either a) unwilling to teach foreigners or b) were fake and got their asses handed to them.

When they found GM Leng, he was at first unwilling to teach them, but acquiesced, if and only if the two would be willing to really devote their time to the stuff. That meant spending half a year, each year, for some years, spent staying in Malaysia and studying the style.

They did and brought back the style to Germany. There Sujit Wings, who was my Sifu, learned the style from Bernd and then brought it to Finland when he moved here. At some time, he was made a Sifu (which means getting adopted into the lineage-holder's family in family-styles like this) and started getting teaching directly from the GM.

Shortly before Sifu's top student in Finland was taken in the family, I switched out of the school so I'm not up to date on the very latest, though I do know some of Sifu's disciples have started getting teaching directly from the GM these days and spent a few months each year in Malaysia.

That's how it came to Finland, but I think the meat in this matter lies in Malaysia and with GM Leng, who is a practising CMA doctor in (I believe) Kuala Lumpur, which has one of the few Tai Shing schools in the world today, not counting the hybrid TSPK. He's the one that succeeded the style from his grandfather and who holds the TS lineage (at least, according to him, which I've currently little reason or proof to dispute).

Oh, and I just want to say I'm not doubting Chan Sau Chung's skills. They're well known and respected, but I do think there's something fishy with the lineages (though they may, of course, go either way). They are, however, a secondary concern if a style produces good fighters, but something that's very interesting nonetheless. I hope we can breathe more life into this discussion than "no, you're wrong!", "am not! your style is BS."

[Rolling_Hand]

Hey guys,

Check this out, Grandmaster Chan Sau Chung in 1976

http://home.vtmuseum.org/sifu/garrett_gee/photos.php

[Richie]

Not Finland, South East Asia. I talked to my Si Gung one time and he said that him and his team went down there to compete and do demos. And a few years later they went down there again and all of a sudden everybody did monkey style or had monkey in their style.

[SifuAbel]

I'm not on anyones side here and I'm not going to contribute to the "he said, he said" arguements.

But, history has a way of flowing in different directions from the source. One will say one thing and another will agree to disagree. History is one of those fuzzy little things that can't really be proven. We get our history from our teachers and they from theirs and so on. So, it's not fair to judge one style or another without first actually seeing a sample of it.

I still say that one should be judged by the quality of their actions not by the quantity of their words. Unfortunatly thats how we pick our presidents, go figure. :D

[Daredevil]

Exactly, Sifu Abel.

I thought about it and think it may even be possible that we're actually talking of two separate styles, both called Tai Shing here. Okay, that sounds unlikely, but there are a few monkey strains going around, so not impossible. That would, however, explain things.

I also have a source that lists Tai Shing as one of the founders of the 5 Ancestors style, which would be impossible if it weren't old enough.

Just a few moe thoughts.

[Richie]

And what source is that?

[diego]

curious about the taishing/pekwa gm&son&co. out here, i know thier highly respected, just curious about fee's and such, do you train in japan, or you have to fly for your lesson's, yah do this on pm, this thread may go into, SHOUTING AND WATER BOTTLE'S BIENG THROWN AT WHOEVER SHOULDN'T BE ON THE PODIUM.:cool:

[Daredevil]

A book by Sifu Wong Kiew Kit on Shaolin kung-fu lists the five influences that went into the style, including Tai Shing. As for his exact sources, I don't know, but he has access to various stuff. Truly interested parties could approach him for the reference.

As for insults and bottle-throwing, at least I've no taste for that on a forum. This is something of an academic dicussion for me.

[Richie]

I fly there from Japan. I'm a closed door student, so I don't have a set price. However, a normal student pays 90 a month canadian.

[diego]

i would pay more just for the quality, however in a article the tspw
gm stated you should really only do this one style, wich may be a problem for me, as i have only learnt not even a quarter of my style but have seen almost everything init so im psyched to complete my training, BUT THE QUALITY JUST 5-8 MILES FROM ME, seems stupid to pass up, i noticed they have adds for come learn to fight like a champion, if your into another style, could you come in and learn say a comp style, say have the masters work on your fight game, or is it a pretty set curriculum until you gain some skill/flexibility and enter the door.
PEACE