Has anyone ever seen the throwing and jointlock tech' in Kara-te

[Leonidas]

I'm trying to gain some general Martial arts knowledge and i been reading up on Okinawan Karate. It supposed to have throws and jointlocks in the kata coming partly from Kung Fu and others from Okinawa-te (the art practiced by Okinawans before Kung Fu was learned). Some hidden and some obvious. My question is has anyone ever seen or used them? If so would you compare them to Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido or something esle

[Ray Pina]

I studies Isshin-Ryu karate from 4 years of age up to HS, stopped to play football and then went back, I reached 2nd dan.

There are locks/throws.

To explain the one that was very popular with us:

right punch comes.

Use left hand out to in (like a windshield wiper) to block, let the hand float to the elbow and twist while the right comes to the wrist as you move to the outside. Great way to control somone, not so practical to pull off like that in a real fight. Need to gain control first, then go into a move like that.

I gain a similiar position now, but get to it completely different and do it in real time against someone fighting me. I don't so much as grab and control with forearms and elbows too.

As for forms, we had alot of moves in there that were never explained. Later, when learning Wing Chun, I saw that one form had fuk sau in it repeatedly, as well finder jabs, crane beaks, don't remeber any tiger. Anyway, when we fought, it was always reverse punch or back fist, side kick, roundhouse, ect.

Funny, the more I learn I see the reverse evolution of a lot of systems, the filtration of practical useage and mere coppying of motion without proper understanding.

[Shaolindynasty]

"Funny, the more I learn I see the reverse evolution of a lot of systems, the filtration of practical useage and mere coppying of motion without proper understanding."

What do you mean? Like people practiceing but not knowing what or why they are doing it? Or like in your discription above people trading in movments like crane hand for backfist cause they "feel" it's more practical and by doing so losing the ability to understand the purpose of the movements?

[myosimka]

Tons of jointlocks in karate kata. Can't speak for other styles but there are definitely joint locks in the Heian series. Lot of wrist locks but also some shoulder and elbow manipulations. Not much in the way of small joint stuff though. Alot of them are similar to traditional jujitsu. Alot of the wrist locks look like aikido. Not as fluid and more aggressive but still similar. Personally there are some of these I don't like because I feel they require too much fine motor coordination to be effective. If I can't use it without an opposable thumb I probably wouldn't want to depend on it. I am just too clumsy.

A lot of people claim that there is ground work in the Nihanchi or Tekki series. I used to think this was bogus. You do the forms standing after all. Then I pulled of a triangle choke that looked alot like Nihanchi 1 one time. I started playing with it and there are some sweeps, triangles and even an armbar if you look hard enough. Do I think you could ever figure them out without training in BJJ or some other ground art? Probably not. Is it a good way to learn groundwork. No. But I do think those moves are there, even if whoever created those forms hit on them accidentally.

[Leonidas]

Theres enlightenment for ya. I didn't know the kata went that far. And people thought it was all about Point-sparring and forms competition :D I think not many people know about the hidden Bunkai (sp?) because the American students who learned them originally weren't taught everything or just watered things down to rake in more students. Its a shame. Most people wont learn the application unless their determined or gifted. A good teacher alway helps. Until then they'll keep on thinking its only kicking and punching.

[Budokan]

Kata are loaded with throwing and jointlock techniques in kara-te. One of my favorites is the "swastika postures" in heian godan, but there are tons of others as someone already mentioned.