The Kiu Sao

[hasayfu]

I empathize with Beancurd, too much oral history stuff. Let's get a new topic.

The Kiu Sao is one of the signature hung gar moves (sorry, still have to keep the hung gar family alive :-)) but how have people been taught to use it?

Both as training and application. Is it just symbolic or does it teach some deep concepts.

Which one are you referrng to?

[Kung Lek]

Kiu Sao-bridge hand or Iron needle pierces heaven.

I have learned some uses for the kiu sao.
1-it is a pick up block that can roll into a grab.
2-it is a pick up parry that can turn to a push
3-it is a deflective parry to put you to the outside angle.
4-it is used to build strength in the forearms and shoulders when practiced in isometric/tonic forms.

it is also or rather was also used as a hand singnal during the boxer rebellion and in the rebellion to restore the ming.
All Hung family styles of Kung Fu have this hand form within them.
The Black Tiger system that I have been given also contains the hand form.

peace

Kung Lek

[hasayfu]

The Kiu Sao is translated as bridge hand. I'm suprised that more people haven't responded as I believe it is a key concept in Southern arts though they may not call it as such.

Kung Lek gave a great intro so I won't repeat. Where I was going with this question is the bridge itself. How do you use it and how do you train to use it?

For use, it does two (main) things. Establish control of your opponent and a link to sense their intention and weakness.

To train, it's much like push hands in tai chi (in concept). You need to be able to use the bridge to feel the direction of energy and go with it and use it against your opponent. The Kiu Sao is the "bridge" for southern arts to go from hard to soft. (OK, not the only one but an important one)

Any others care to comment.

[illusionfist]

I'm sure most of us are very familiar with da sam sing, and of course this is one of the main ways to train bridge strength.

The bridge techniques are used to establish a connection with the opponent. The "bridge" that is now formed when you have connected, allows you to intercept an attack or make a space in the opponents defenses.

The most common kiu sau, called dan kiu (single bridge) offers a wide variety of meanings. Some of the meanings and anecdotes that i have been taught for this particular technique are as follows-

-One bridge covers the danger, let those enter and leave protected.

-build a bridge and cross with your horse

-the symbolic meaning is "yat jee wai sai", one finger holds up the world. The strength of one can be as strong as many, if the others support him.

Peace :D

[WongFeHung]

Any time hand meets hand, hand meets leg, or leg meets leg, a bridge is formed. In warefare,There are three ways of dealing with a bridge; you can cross it, you can capture it, or you can destroy it. Kiu-sao faht is just that. You can cross your opponent's bridge, you can trap him, or you can utilize destructions.Other training besides those mentioned, would be various forms of chi-sao,lop-sao, jow-sao,and phon-sao excercises. These aren't owned by only wing chun, bak mei,or nam tong-long. Hung Ga has these as well.For example: Tiger's Eye Leopard Punch and Cornered Tiger Fights Back can be combined to form just one of the Hung-Ga chi-sao excercises.The two-man set is another source for bridge training.
The 12 bridges opens up a whole can of worms. Think of them, not as separate techniques (those of you who know me, know that my views on Hung Ga are that of a theory oriented system, rather than a technique oriented system)but as qualities to be developed and utilzed in ALL forms of the kiu-sao. One example is fook-sao. Fook-sao can be gong,or yau-hard or soft, penetrating, yeilding,offensive,defensive, etc,etc.Knowing this theory, your Hung-Ga takes on another level, and opens up new doors and vistas in your training and understanding of Hung-Kuen.
Remember, our art was never meant to be shotokan with cool claws.

[hasayfu]

Now this thread is going somewhere. So far great posts all around, I'll just comment on a few of the stuff and leave the rest for others.

Illusionfist wrote, "build a bridge and cross with your horse" For all those people who say stance training is just for conditioning don't understand this saying.

TenTigers wrote, "our art was never meant to be shotokan with cool claws." This is so true but you see so many representatives of Hung Gar and the southern arts as shotokan with cool moves.

One more addition, one way we train bridges is an exercise that is a combo of arm wrestling and push hands. The goal is much like arm wrestling to end up on top and in your opponents area but the movement is in any direction and you learn that to "win" you need to feel the energy and direct instead of power against power.

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Another simple solution to meeting a bridge is to let it fall. If someone tries to build their bridge on you, retreat, sink, or side step. Then do whatever you like.

Some common ways you can train it are by doing three star arm banging exercises, hung gar type "push hands" and "sticky hands", and step by step fighting drills. You can train with iron rings (or ankle/wrist weights on your arms), and you can do it in a static posture, or practice going in and out slowly.

[premier]

This seems to be mainly about Hung gar.. but as I read this topic some questions came up.

I practise choy lee fut. The Kiu Sao itself isn't familiar to me, but both "kiu" and "sao" pop up all the time. We have many blocks called **** kiu. Yang kiu, poon kiu, wang kiu.. and many thingies that end with the word "sao"

"kiu" means "bridge", right? does this mean that these blocks form a "bridge" to the opponent when they are used? what does it mean to "form a bridge"? to control the blocked limb maybe?

[hasayfu]

Yes Kiu means bridge and I don't know what it means in CLF. I assume it would mean the same as in Hung Gar since they share southern roots so going on that, making a bridge is exactly what it sounds like. A bridge between you and your opponent. It's more then controling the limb, though that's the start. From there you should be able to stay connected (bridged) to your opponents energy and take advantage.

OF course that's easier said then done and as Paul pointed out, the common defense is to make your end of the bridge disappear. This is where the skill of the players come in. If I'm good, I can prevent you from building a bridge and build my bridge over yours. If you are better, as I try to move my end, you follow until there is an opening and you cross the bridge for the kill.

What does CLF do once one of these bridges are built? Is the concept in any of the other southern styles?

[Shaolin Master]

Build a bridge and get over it......(heheh..sorry I couldn't hold that much longer)

Most southern styles emphasise Kiu Sao (Qiao Shou) ...no big deal (I say that again)...practice and though shall understand its multiple variations hehehe...

Gees I love the way people overcomplicate/mystify simple things ...it is wonderful hehehe.

Regards
Shi Chan Long
Yes I'll get serious again one day soon. Just everything seems funny lately on KFO.

[Kung Lek]

ShaolinMaster- you are a funny guy (assuming you are a guy)! hahahahaa.

"build a bridge and get over it" I Love it! do you mind if I use that? hahahaha.

peace

Kung Lek

[premier]

CLF doesn't have bridge concept like this. the ideas are there, but we don't talk about bridges. they're just blocks, after which you can do whatever you can.. attack, block another incoming strike or do a joint lock.

[FUJIYakumo]

how does the hunggar bridging moves differ from wing chun bridging moves? going from long to short range..

what typically would/can a hungarist/spm/bakmei do to close the gap and bridge? and then once the bridge is built where does the hugarist/spm/bakmei go from there?

what are common drills used for establishing the bridge? strengthing the bridge? destroying the bridge?

my small exposure to ChoyLiFut, i didnt come across much bridging techniques.. can anyone comment on CLF?

-Stu, Lifestyle Wing Chun, Melbourne, Australia.
<A HREF="http://www.lifestylewingchun.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.lifestylewingchun.com</A>