Are there weapons taught in Shuai Chiao

[Leonidas]

?

Simple question.

[Leonidas]

Another question thats been on my mind screaming for an answer :

How developed is the striking techniques in Shuai Chiao. Its a wrestling style so I'd think that would take a backseat to the throwing portion. I know you couldn't compare it to styles like White Crane or Praying Mantis but could you rely on it if needed. Is it generic Chang Chuan moves, or like Japanese Sports Karate, Kickboxing maybe. Replies ?

[Shaolindynasty]

From what I've seen from Shuai Jiao as a system(most systems have shuai jiao techs in them). The style combines the striking and throws. Strikes are used to set up throws and throws are used to set up strikes. I am not really sure what the modern competitions allow but traditional shuai jiao(as a system) is more like anything goes than olympic wrestling or BJJ.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Depends on what you meamn by "Shuai Chiao".

The sport version is strictly a grappling art.

The Chang Style 'martial art' of Shuai Chiao includes weapons work - but not the classical 18 weapons. It teaches handguns, knife and stick. And THAT depends on who you learned it from. My experience is that ALMOST EVERY teacher who learned from Chang will have a different answer. Some are based on personal preference, others what they learned.

Many of those teachers have also practiced other arts and incorporate those things into thier curriculum.

The beauty of this is that you find a lot of really intelligent practitioners who have taken thier arts in different, but often equally valid directions. There is a great deal that can be learned.

Chang's Shuai Chiao really emphasized Xing Yi or Lohan for the fisticuffs - there is a lot of content there, but it is not as heavily focused on in most of the schools I have seen. After all, the emphasis IS on throwing skill.

Keep in mind - that I have never trained with Chang - so I can only speak from what I have observed and learned from his students. However, I am fairly certain that some students are more honest than others. There seems to be a direct relation between chest puffing and lack of knowledge.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Although - I have seen some Chang Shuai Chiao people who teach simple kick boxing with thier Shuai Chiao. I don't care for this approach - but to each thier own.

[Leonidas]

I meant traditional Shuai Chiao. Sports anything usually mean watered down. So the striking tech' really depends on your teacher. Who exactly teaches handguns though. It must be a NHB Reality training type thing

[neptunesfall]

from my learning experiences in training shuai chiao for the last 4 years,
the strikes are part of the throw. as an example, grabbing and hitting are used in unison to steal
balance while the body moves in for the throw.
the striking/kicking aspect of shuai chiao isn't immediately apparent, but it is very much there and well developed.
also from what i have learned, any shuai chiao throw can be used with any weapon, slight modifications are needed for some weapons though.
in competition [sport] SC, strikes and kicks are almost nonexistant, except for shoving/pushing type hits and sweeps.
similar to judo.
here's a page form the black belt mag that i posted somewhere else; it's an interview with GM gene chicoine and he goes into some detail regarding shuai chiao striking and throwing.....http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/halloffame/html/215.html

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yeah, I guess you could look at it that way. But the 'strikes' in the throws are not trained the way you would train a striking style. I tend to view the body hitting in the throws as an element of throwing skill, not as pugilistic skills.

Hey GDL you out there? Whats your take?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Also - sport shuai chiao is anything but watered down. True there are limitations created by rules, and you are not to seriously hurt your opponeent - but played right it's like going to Klingon school.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Also - sport shuai chiao is anything but watered down. True there are limitations created by rules, and you are not to seriously hurt your opponeent - but played right it's like going to Klingon school.

From the little I've seen, all you need to do to make Sport Shuai Chiao street applicable is take away the mat :D

[SevenStar]

I think I'd have to agree with that too!

[Leonidas]

Ok so heres an extreme what if:

What if the opponent weighed around 400-500 pounds. How would you handle it?

[KC Elbows]

I'd send him to Jenny Craig.:D

[neptunesfall]

personally....i would try for a takedown of any kind. if they were that big most likey they'd exhaust themselves within minutes. taking sumo wrestlers into consideration, i'd just run a little faster.

[Stacey]

Using Chuei Deng I got a man close to 300 lbs. I was doing lots of horse stance training at the time. I wouldn't have gotten it except that once he was over halfway, the rest of him flowed and flopped on the mat. It hurt him because of his weight. Still I'm not a big girl,. When I was throwing him, I could feel every little imperfection in my stance as my legs nearly buckled.

[Water Dragon]

I'd probably start chucking Twinkies at him.

[neptunesfall]

yes...good idea.....distract him....would they be poison filled ninja twinkies?
that would be totally sweet. then you could totally flip out and cut his head off.

[SevenStar]

ninjas love to cut people's heads off

[neptunesfall]

ninjas are so sweet i want to crap my pants.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I've tried to eat ninjas, but they keep disapearing.

[Leonidas]

Ok say it was 2 Fat ba$tards. They've surrounded you and your in a pretty narrow alley. Now there not really fast but fast enough to shank you to death.

Whaddya do?

[Kristoffer]

mm, well I'd go for a strike/strikes/kicks/knee/elbow,, grab the nearest stick or weapon. Throwing someone that big is tough. But if u have trained for a long time, then it wont be that much of a problem. I've seen small guy throw a huge guy completly effortless. (and the big guy did not want to go down :D )

[SwaiingDragon]

my opinion:

The essentials of fighting/combat (whatever you want to call it) are:

throwing
punching
kicking
joint locking/ grappling
pressure points

Shuai Chiao incorporates all of these techniques. Some students/instructor may only become proficient in 2 or 3 of these techniques or all of them.

Some Shuai Chiao tournaments allow chi na (joing locking) in the the execution of a throw only

Shuai Chiao as I am learning is a guard/police art - tournament is good practice in my opinion.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Ok say it was 2 Fat ba$tards. They've surrounded you and your in a pretty narrow alley. Now there not really fast but fast enough to shank you to death.

Whaddya do?

Simple. Just throw one Twinkie at them. Let them fight each other over who gets the Twinkie

[Chang Style Novice]

Water Dragon -

That plan would never work. Everyone knows twinkies come two to a pack, so that leaves you holding one twinkie. They'll come after you for it, or if you destroy it you've only enraged the bug guys further.

Is this what's meant by 'reality training?'

[Water Dragon]

Ahhh Grasshoppa

Listen and learn. The big boxes of Twinkies come individually wrapped. What you must do is remove one Twinkie from the box and carry it with you always. This is called:

I know the opponent (is a big fat azz) but the opponent does not know (that I have a Twinkie on) me ;)

[Chang Style Novice]

Ah, bite my golden, creme-filled tube cake!

No, on second thought, don't.

[scotty1]

LMFAO at the Ninja jokes.

[Rolling Elbow]

"Chu Shum-Shuei and Lee Mei-Shi. Stricken by result less efforts and growing political pressure, they could go nowhere but stay at a Buddhist Temple, therein they taught 3 Samurai students namely, Fukunoshiehile-Wuemon, Mirulayosi Wuemen, and Isomizile Saemon, the Shuai-Chiao techniques, which later on were developed into Judo."

right off Chicoine's page...he may be good and the organization and grandmaster legit but PLEASE..how many diff sources of history do we have? I'm sure that the Japanese and Okinawans knew absolutely nothing of fighting until a combined total of 15 chinese practitioners sought refuge in Okinawa or in Japan..thus giving birth to Karate and Judo? I guess when the japanese dropped their weapons on the battlefield they just stood there until someone cut them down? I hate over simplifications like this... there is no doubt of the chinese-japanese connection, but to say that early judo practitioners did not know where to place there strikes or how to throw for damage or that judo was not (at least in large part) derived from jujutsu, is simply promotion rather than fact. Jigoro Kano was an ex jujutsu practitioner who based his judo on refined jujutsu was he not? Judo faught in open full contact bouts against other jujutsu schools did they not? Traditional Judo does in fact know how to strike and block don't they? I'd say they do..This was more the origins of judo.., not 3 chinese refuge seekers.

p.s- We do everything they do in Mongolian Wrestling because good fighting principals are universal!!!!I suspect most of you do too.

[Water Dragon]

There are elements of grappling in Shuai Chiao that are much more advanced than Judo. Of course, there's elements of grappling in Judo that are much more advanced than in Shuai Chiao. Different arts go in different ways based on their perceived needs and the emphasis they place on that.

I don't like politics, but I'll make this comment in a very general tone. I've seen this situation pop up in Taijiquan. Most times when you have an acknowledged Master Teacher, he will have senior students. The majority of the senior students work together, maintain contact, and develop the art as best they can. Of course you will have differences, you should. But I tend to get suspicious anytime you have one individual pointing at the group from afar claiming the individual is the only one with the true teachings and the Senior students basically have no idea of the true art. The individual may have skill, but he's not the only one.

That's my observation, I wont argue it one way or the other.

[Leonidas]

You talking about Gene Chicoine. I think he has swollen head syndrome. Hey i dont care, hes not my instructor.

[GGL]

Hey brothers of Shuai Chiao

Sorry I got to this thread so late..
I have to agree with MonkeySlap on this one.. he said the strikes will set up throws and the throws can and will be followed up with strikes.. and locks and really mean and nasty stuff...
the best phrase my sifu ever said to me is the ground is and never will be forgiving... if you throw a right hook punch at somebodies face.. the opponents head will give... either that or it will end up really messy....if you throw into to the cement what will give... the opponents WHOLE body.. not just his head but everthing from his carples to his meta-carples..

As for weapons on Shuai Chiao.. my instructure focused on "real world" weapons.. (how many people get caught with a sword in hand today).. he does support the gun, knife, and stick (or bat:))
he does bring in many influences from his white crane training also... sometimes we break up the workouts with some long fist weapons.. or just whatever someone is interested in.. I would support the theory that the weapon is just the extension of the body.. all the open hand techniques in Shuai Chiao can be applied to your weapons of choice (diagonal strike, neck suround, to even diagonal pulling).. for butterfly sword... to even 3-section-staff... and I would even suggest NOT practice a given form.. just play with the weapon till you learn what it can do and what it can do for YOU... This will teach you not to focus on just a form but to move without thought and to react to real world situations and to look for weapons in your enviroment... let me leave you with this... the belt that hold up your pants is probably the most effective weapon in todays society...

peace

Greg