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Water Dragon
01-24-2002, 02:06 PM
I took my first falls on concrete this weekend. I just wanted to share the experience of what a Shuai Chiao throw feels like to the throwee on the street. First I’ll describe all the variables so the reader can come to his own conclusions on how accurate the post may be. Then I’ll try to describe what I felt during the application of the technique. I’m going to compare and contrast it with sensations I’ve felt from other contact arts. Therefore, my audience are those with some full contact, live sparring experience. Basically I’m going to assume you know what a right cross and a Thai roundhouse feel like.

The Surface I took the fall in a bedroom in an apartment. Cheap padding with carpet built on a concrete slab, no mat.

The Throw Diagonal Cut for you Shuai Chiao enthusiasts. Judo guys can think of O Soto Gari, but realize the throw is different, the idea is set up, and steal the root through the opponents weighted leg.

The Experience The first thing that is pretty unique in Shuai Chiao throwing, is that you don’t feel the set up. There was nothing in my mind that said “Danger” until my balance was broken. And of course, by then there’s nothing you can do. The actual fall was quick. I mean it was a lot quicker than the same throw done on a mat. Don’t ask me why, I can’t figure that one out. But I was standing, and then I was on the mat, just like that. I can’t recall the actual sweep, the fall, or anything like that.

OK, now the good part. This is what it feels like to land on concrete. Imagine how a right cross feels. That sharp crack and all of a sudden you just don’t know where you are for a second? OK, now imagine how a Thai kick to the ribs? That feeling of something exploding in your belly. Now, take those two feelings and imagine them happening all at once.. In addition, picture that feeling across your entire torso. Basically, it hurt. In addition, it snapped my neck back; and I know how to take a fall. My neck is still a bit sore 4 days later. That may have something to do with my dumb a$$ taking 8 falls on the concrete, but who knows. All that happened pretty much at the same time, and once I got over the initial shock, I still didn’t know where I or my partner was for about a second or two.

Now, take this into account: This was a basic, beginners throw. No black hands, no strikes to set up, no velocity added during the takedown. Also add in that the throwee in the street probably can’t take a fall, definitely wont expect it, and has no idea how to stop it from happening. In the end, I think studying Shuai Chiao was a good decision on my part.
:D

neptunesfall
01-24-2002, 02:10 PM
just wait til you get thrown so hard it makes your balls hurt as well.....:D

Leonidas
01-24-2002, 02:18 PM
Seems real painful, and you say that was a beginners throw .............. What is the Black hands though?

Water Dragon
01-24-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by neptunesfall
just wait til you get thrown so hard it makes your balls hurt as well.....:D

Why do all the Shuai Chiao guys have to be a$$holes?

Oh, you think that hurts? Wait till we do this to you!

C'mon guys, don't you think it would be better to just do it and not make me dread for months first? :D

Black Hand is basically adding in things to make the throw nasty. It's like a left hook, you'll crack someone in the jaw in the ring. You'll probably crack them in the neck on the street.

Knifefighter
01-24-2002, 03:08 PM
Water Dragon:
What's your previous training experience with standup takedowns/throws (wrestling; judo; sambo)? Were the throws done in a sparring type situation with you resisting or were they technique demonstrations with you allowing the throw?

Shooter
01-24-2002, 03:22 PM
Information Directed at No One in Particular:

Break-falls and roll/recovery skills should evolve as the ideas of diffusing, orientation/adroitness of the body in flight, and recognition/awareness in split-second chaos take on new levels.

From sitting in and slapping a mat to a full gainer with a twist, it all applies.

I train on hard-wood and cement as often as on a mat. The mat provides a safe avenue to developing in-flight body awareness/adroitness but it shouldn't become a barrier or develop false awareness.

The main things to avoid when getting thrown on hard or uneven surfaces are making corners with your body, and freezing the opponent's rotation. Counter-rotation is one of the first ideas I introduce after a person has good in-flight orientation and adroitness. Next is the idea of rounding into the rotation so that the body eliminates all its natural corners (bent elbow, knee, spine/coccyx/hips). Also, staying tight and wrapping around the opponent by any and all means in order to steal his center. Sometimes these rules apply and sometimes they dont, but the most important is having the awareness in place so that you can time your breath (exhale on impact) and land feet first whenever possible regardless of how one flies. That's where any and all avenues of in-flight activity are investigated and persued by the individual on their own time. eg...Diving at the local swimming pool, taking a gymnastics course, using our mat to play at tumbling and leaping. It's all good.

Most throws are injurious because the throwee forgets to breathe, fights the throw when it's already too late, or they consign themself to being thrown through compliance, or a lack of control/concern in terms of safety on the part of the thrower. The situation dictates the response and attitude toward throwing and being thrown.

JMO :cool:

Water Dragon
01-24-2002, 03:23 PM
Hey KF, most of my previous takedown experience is against wrestlers; mostly Freestyle and Folk but a little Greco-Roman too. More of me being a stand up striker vs a takedown artist type deal. Those are the guys who really got me interested in takedowns. I’ve played with two Judo guys since I’ve been in Shuai Chaio. I matched pretty evenly with a brown belt. I pulled off Diagonal Cut on him once, he couldn’t throw me at all. Basically, I couldn’t get past his grip and he couldn’t find my center. The other guy was a white belt who just wanted to see what Shuai Chiao was about. We pretty much just demo’ed different throws on each other.

The situation below was sanitized. We were working on stealing centers and effortless throwing. So yeah, I just stood there and let him throw me.

neptunesfall
01-24-2002, 05:44 PM
Why do all the Shuai Chiao guys have to be a$$holes?

Oh, you think that hurts? Wait till we do this to you!

C'mon guys, don't you think it would be better to just do it and not make me dread for months first?
LOL!
if it's any consolation....it's only happened to me once in 4 yrs of training, when i was thrown by my sifu.
so...sorry man....just forget i said that.

Nichiren
01-25-2002, 08:34 AM
just wait til you get thrown so hard it makes your balls hurt as well

There we have someone who knows how it feels to get thrown HARD! :D That statment is funny because I know the feeling.

Another one: Have you ever been thrown so hard(e.g. tai-otoshi) that when your feet hit the ground it feels like your toes are coming of?? :D

Leonidas
01-25-2002, 10:34 AM
Geez...... Its seems Pro Wrestlers have nothing on you people. The hardest throw someone performed on me......well it was actually a slam, but anyhow someone choke slammed me on the ground. Luckily it was on grass which provided alittle shock protection but i thought my ribs were broken, it literally knocked the wind outta me. I was about 10 or 12. I couldn't even cry i was so hurt. Was atleast 5 feet in the air............This wasn't exactly a slam but another time i remember playing soccer and somehow i fell and my friend got the "bright" idea to doggypile me. So it was about 400 pounds on top of my chest. I could feel something cracking in my chest and I could tell my ribs were bruised, didn't even have to go to the doctor to know. I had trouble moving or even breathing for a few days but ICYHOT works wonders. My chest is burning just thinking about it :D