A true statement if I've ever heard one :)

[David Jamieson]

From the interview/article with the Wah Lum Master.



Commonly heard in America is Bruce Lee's saying, "Absorb what is useful, then discard the rest." The proper response is another old saying, "Don,t throw the baby out with the bathwater." The major problem with "absorb what is useful" philosophy is that it tends to lead to quick judgements based on immature study. There is merit and lessons to be learned from all aspects in life; however in order to learn them it takes patience. The Northern Style student who studies close range styles like Silat and Arnis to fill in the perceived "holes" in their main system isn,t being clever, just impatient.


All I can say is... beautiful.

peace

[red_fists]

Amen, to that.

Peace.

[Water Dragon]

From what I've seen in MA, most of the advanced methods in one system are the basics in another. We're all training the same stuff, we just place different levels of importance on said stuff.

[KungFuGuy!]

"The major problem with 'absorb what is useful' philosophy is that it tends to lead to quick judgements based on immature study."

Not necassarily.
Sounds to me like someone else just trying to find fault in Bruce Lee. I guess he deserves it considering he discredited all styles of kung fu :D
In Mr. Lee's defense, everything he said is true, to a degree.

[red_fists]

Hi.

I disagree.

If you are always looking and hunting for the more useful/better stuff, you only tend to evaluate techniques by their surface value.

But it takes time to learn and study a system/style to see it's full benefit.

There is a chinese saying:
"The man that chases 2 Hares goes home emtpy-handed."

Said, that on another Board there was a similar discusson recently and it was agreed that in order to do successfull crosstrainign you need the following.
1.) Good foundation and understdaning in your first style.
2.) Good Instruction in your new style, with the consent of your old Master.
3.) Help from both Instructors to assimilate your newfound knowledge into your Original style.

This type of training has been done for Centuries, and is beneficial if done properly.

Personally, I don't think that Bruce Lee had either a good foundation in Wing Chun (3yrs, Green Sash) nor had real quality instructions in the other styles he studied after he came to the US.
One story I heard he studied WC from age 14~17 and was asked to leave the Kwoon as he insistd on teaching classes due to his high skill level.

He ws a good Martial Artist and Dancer, but I also feel that he was a bit too headstrong for his own good.
Hence the problems with the police and his emmigration to the US.
Which could have partly been due to him being a Child actor since age 4 or 5.

As for his Death.
IMHO, his Body gave out as he never appeared to learn balancing different aspects of his Life. He tried to push himself and his Body way to fast and to far.

In JMA we say:
"You cannot serve 2 masters, nor can you be married to more than 1 Wife."

Too many modern MA jump between styles the minute they either got a BB or they think that they have got the goods, when in reality they barely have mastered the basics.In JMA 1st BB (Shodan) literally means "Beginner Rank".

Just some random rants and ramblings.

[Water Dragon]

Hey Red Fists.
I'm speaking in terms of skills, not technique (yielding, rooting, Dan Tien development, Power structure, Jing training) I can name at least one system that teaches each of these as a basic, primary skill. I'm also talking about studying it for a good 3 years (the skill, not the system)

It's a point you can argue, but I think it will changr the gist of your argument.

[red_fists]

Hi Water Dragon.

Having studied a few Systems myself, I agree with you.
Now studying a combined system.

But the article, methinks, was about techniques not skills.

I.e.: Take a kick from here, a throw from there, a Pressure point strike from here.

We are agreeing I think that a technique without underlying skill is useless.

IMHO, Bruce Lee looked for Techniques not skills.

Anyhuh, back to Lunch.

[Ryu]

You guys will be surprised, but I very much agree with that. :)

Taken to the extreme, the "absorb, reject" stuff can be very dangerous.

Bruce agrees too :D I just called him. The trick is to find the cause of your own ignorance. Without it you'll never be able to absorb anything. ;)

Ryu

[Xebsball]

Totally cool, im saving that quote, Kung Lek.

[Mr. Nemo]

"The Northern Style student who studies close range styles like Silat and Arnis to fill in the perceived "holes" in their main system isn,t being clever, just impatient."

Let's say, just hypothetically, that I was a northern style student studying a groundfighting style like brazilian jiu jitsu to fill in a percieved "hole" in my system. Am I being impatient? Should I stop taking brazilian jiu jitsu, and hope that after I've taken Baji long enough, I'll be so good that I won't need to worry about ground fighting anymore?

P.S. This is a trick question

[Merryprankster]

"Within Reason," is a mantra that I learned from a friend a few years ago, and applies across the board to ANY concept.

The danger of concepts is that we tend to dismiss those we don't agree with by pointing out the absurd example--ALL ideas or virtues taken to their logical extreme conclusion are absurd.

We all agree that effective law enforcement is necessary to an orderly safe society, but I think we'd all disagree with a government such as that in Orwell's 1984.

We all believe that we should be left to live our lives more or less as we see fit, but none of us believe that a person has the right to live the life of a serial rapist.

Aristotle may not be the most "advanced," in the annals in western thought, but he's got some goodies yet.

Bruce Lee? Green Sash?

And Bruce studied with Yip Man, the most well known WC instructor of his time.

Look at his form and look at the way he does chi sao - AWESOME fundamentals.

[Ryu]

MerryPrankster would make a GOOD Buddhist! :D

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

So would Aristotle apparently. :)

[red_fists]

Hi HuangKaiVun.

It is my belief that it takes more than a good Teacher to make a good martial artist.

I am also pretty sure that not all of Yip Man Students are top of the line Fighters.

A Teacher like Yip man guarantees top level instruction not a top level uptake by the Student.

But I doubt that even Yip Man could create a very high level Ma in 3 yrs.

Peace.

P.S.: I would never judge a Martial Artist by what he shows in a Movie.

Movie fighting and real skill are 2 different Animals.

[CanadianBadAss]

"Look at his form and look at the way he does chi sao - AWESOME fundamentals."

Where can I find a clip of him doing chi sao?
The only clip I've seen of him doing it was when the other guy was just letting him attack, more for demenstration purposes i think...

[Kaitain(UK)]

Without a base how can you possibly assess what is good for you? You need dedicated study of a single art to build your spacial awareness and martial intelligence to a high enough degree before you can examine another style and decide what is good for you.

Which is my second point - you cannot teach someone else what is useful for them from another style, they have to draw their own conclusions through playing with it. It will be different for everyone.

Last point - taking what is useful is relative to your understanding of that technique (based on your own experience) - dedicated study of an art brings an understanding beyond the superficial. In Karate I initially despised doing it - fixed pairs work seemed ridiculous to me - you punch, I block and respond. After I moaned about it to my instructor he told me to stick with it for 6 months more and then decide what to do. 4 months on I find the pairs work does actually have uses - looking beyond the basic 'A punches B responds' to the techniques involved and the nuances that are present. Often what seems useless at first sight suddenly begins to make sense after dedicated study.

Actually this is my last point - Arnis is an exceptional training tool - working with sticks and knives at speed builds an awareness and intent that is hard to replicate unarmed. When you return to open hand work it becomes a lot slower and easier to deal with. The additional arts that I work aren't there to fill perceived gaps - they are there to take shortcuts. If I want to play with the balance of speed and power in combination punching techniques I go and use the bag - it is the best training tool I know. It wasn't that long ago that the bag was first introduced to martial arts - it's a shortcut. Likewise the Wing Chun wooden dummy - I use one at home to practice Taiji because I can't always find a partner - another shortcut. However, first and foremost I study Taiji, at all times my Taiji principles are in use - it is my base.

Another ramble over :)

[shaolinboxer]

In response to Kung Lek's original post, word.

[Kristoffer]

...

[red5angel]

You hit my sweet spot with that question....

I say yes, you are being impatient. Why do I say this? Because I firmly believe that all good MAs have what is needed to survive a fight. All else being equal, the guy who has studied the hardest, will win if he understands the things he has studied. I say this because my art WC, has been accused on occasion of being weak on the ground, but I have seen some pretty good demos that prove otherwise, its in the art, you just have to unlock it. This only happens with patience.
I believe that it is hype that you have to cross train to be an effective fighter, at any range. I come at this from a street level, live or die standpoint, not a sport fighting stand point by the way.
I think that patience is definitely a virtue in the ma.

Nice quote KungLek, I like it. Bruce may have been right to a certain degree, but I see it this way. Guys like Bruce Lee have big egos, and they tend to get in the way of thier progress. Bruce may have found that some things worked for him while others did not. this is true with anyone in any style, some things may work for you, others may not. In this way you may have to 'throw out' some things and work on the stuff you are good at. I dont however think you need to crosstrain to cover deficiencies, if you do, you probably havent studied long or hard enough, or your instruction has been bad

[Kuen]

Look at his form and look at the way he does chi sao - AWESOME fundamentals.

you're joking right? In the footage I've seen off him playing Chi Sao the skill level seems quite low. A lot of swatting about and chasing of the hands. Heck, if Bruce was alive he'd be the kung fu version of fat Elvis by now anyway.

[Ray Pina]

If I was to judge Bruce Lee, no matter how much I enjoyed his movies as a kid, by what I saw of him on the screen, high-side kicks, roundhouses and nunchucks, I would say he did Karate in Chinese clothing. Maybe against Chuck Norris in the COlloseum he showed some very basic trapping, nothing Aweseome by any means.

The best movie action I think I have seen, that I liked the flavor, was by the cop in Black Mask. I thought that guy moved well, martially, especially for his build. By those standards, movies, he's amazing. He might be, who knows.

[Nichiren]

I will probably **** some JKD practitioners of by this statement but what the hell. I think because Bruce Lee never made it past the second form in WC he had to look for other techniques just because what he had learnt wasn't enough.

[Ford Prefect]

I think the key thing missing from most of these posts is the words "In my opinion" ;)

Too bad.

It's a pity none of you guys can touch hands with the now deceased Lee. He'd show you.

Not a single one of you guys - or any of the legitimate WC sifu I've seen - could TOUCH Bruce Lee in Wing Chun.

Only Yip Man had the skill to give Bruce Lee trouble, from what I've seen.

[NafAnal]

I think Ryu needs to make another phone call...

[NafAnal]

Who was he? You say he trained with Bruce?

[NafAnal]

Well actually i was thinking of challenging him... :D

[rubthebuddha]

bruce lee's wing chun? he only studied it for a few years, got as far as the chum kiu and bits of the dummy form. that's nowhere near enough time or technique to begin to understand the art.

and gm yip man being the only one to give him trouble? bull****. even most jf/jkd bio sites tell the stories of how he would trick his fellow students by saying the instructors cancelled class due to illness so he could have a private lesson -- which he got when wsl found out what kind of **** he was pulling. lee left those lessons bleeding and badly bruised every time.

and i'm not sure how bruce lee could ever be considered gm yip man's top student, because he had sihings that had been studying with his sifu for many years before, and practiced even harder than he did.

or possibly take bruce lee's own correspondence with his sihings -- namely william cheung. modern politics aside, lee always looked up to cheung and on many an occasion, admitted that cheung was the best fighter he ever knew. it was NOT yip man who did most of lee's teaching -- it was william cheung. cheung was basically assigned to lee as a mentor -- a true sihing.

not to discount lee's ability, for talent he had in abundance. however, he was not the best, nor had he lived do i think he ever would have been the best. he was amazing, pure and simple, but never the best. and his wing chun? 3 years and he's gm yip man's top student? not by a longshot.

bruce was not, is not nor will he ever be the god he is made out to be. don't believe me? have ryu give him a call and hear it straight from the dragon.

[red5angel]

You are probably right, but for the wrong reasons....let me explain....
Bruce Lee was an excellent athlete, and a pretty good martial artist. It is well known that he did not finish his WC. When he was in his prime, he had a solid foundation and he wast fast and strong, but what about now? Could he still maintain his speed strength?
The idea behind WC is to negate all of that and atleast try to level the playiing field. He had some basic concepts down very well, but seemed to rely on his athleticism.
Now, he is dead, so obviously we could debate this all day and never get anywhere. He was good, but his technique was still sloppy, atleast from a WC point of view, and he wouldnt have been able to maintain it without growth.
Dont get me wrong, I think he did some real good for CMA but he still needed to work. He had alot of ego and that can get weighty, sometimes too much to be able to work around.

[guohuen]

You *****!!!!:D
Sorry, couldn't help myself!
No kidding, this guy had tha fastest double side snap kick I have ever seen and he (gasp!) used high kicks to the head! Something I would never do ! It took me a long time to learn to be soong enough to fade to the side of those kicks and they were definately too fast to grab. I only got inside of him once or twice in a year and a half.

[rubthebuddha]

sometimes seems to go hand in hand -- wing chun and ego.

don't get me wrong. i study the stuff, too. but wing chun seems to have more than its fair share of self-centeredness.

[red5angel]

Well, I would take it even ****her and say that all martial arts have ego issues. As martial artist I think most of us have to battle our egos to some degree, possibly more so then your 'average' person. I think it feeds it for sure.

[old jong]

It is so funny that many martial artist prefer to follow the thoughts of a movie star than those who where real martial arts experts!
I understand that he was an influence in the early seventies but we should have matured a little since those days. All his things were those of a frustrated man who was aware that he could not be "the" man in his style. It is a lot easier to become the grand master of a style by simply creating it. I dont think that he was knowledgable enough in his style to start discarding anything from it. He was still scratching the surface of wing chun when he started playing grand master with his cute sayings about " Be like water,shapeless, etc etc!" ....And ,he was the guy telling us to leave our ego at the door!:rolleyes:
Btw, I saw his chi sau demo and it was exactly that...A demo! He was just entering flashy techniques on a willing guy.
I think it is better to really learn a martial art before starting to modify it for your own purposes. that is if you want some solid ground to build upon.

[Silumkid]

I'd like to start by saying that that quote Kung Lek posted was beautiful. Truly. :)

Secondly, how is it that so many people presume to know what entailed Bruce Lee's training? Because you read a few articles in a martial arts magazine? A couple books about the man maybe? Or were you by his side training with him every day of his life? Pretty strange to me, especially when we haven't even really figured out what some of his weight workouts were! Sure, we've seen some notes...but any daily logs, nutritional logs, anything charting his progress? I haven't read it but I have been told that "The Art of Expressing the Human Body" was nothing more than John Little's conclusions based on notes that he was able to see. If you've ever read Little's "Power Factor Training" then you have a good idea where his 'conclusions' come from, and they are not entirely sound. Not without merit mind you, but also not the "be-all-end-all" of exercise research.

The best chance to find out the truth of a story is to ask the subject themselves, and he ain't available right now.

[Royal Dragon]

In the system I study (founded 960 AD) We start learning the Southern style, then once that is well understood, the Northern style is taught. And finnalyy the Six Step Monkey Boxing.

theses are three DIFFERENT systems all developed or perfected by the Chao family, and have been taught in this mannor since the late Sung dynasty (As far as I know).

Each art of the system works different attributes.

Is it safe to say the system has "Cross training" built into it? If so, why? and does the fact that it's been doen this way for close to a milininum say anything?


Does any one els practice a family system that teaches several styles in this mannor? How about your school, does it offere courses in more than one style?

What are the benifits or draw backs to this?

RD

I agree with the last part of that and the saying about the person trying to "fill" the holes in their main system reminds of the guy that hops from school to school looking for that "secret" in the shaolin arts not realizing the secret is hard work perseverance and determination.

Amen,

Shaolin36

[guohuen]

I agree with that also which is why I only practice one system now and utilize the atributes of character that all my teachers possesed, not different styles.

[rovere]

Mao Tse-tung in his writings entitled "On Protracted War" said "Absorb what is useful; reject what is useless and discard the rest". I would think this is where Bruce Lee got his famous saying.

Whether Mao was quoting someone else -- I'm not sure?

[red_fists]

Quicky Question.

Did Bruce Lee ever study Tai Chi??

A lot of his "famous" and "insight" sayings seem to come directly from the Tai Chi classics and treaties.
"You must be like Water" and others.

While I respect Bruce Lee for his achievement, I don't hold him in high regard as a Martial Artist nor see him as the grea Figher that many people want to make him out.

Said that.
Who in the 70's had the Skill and understanding of Chinese Arts in the West to really evaluate him.

Too many things about Bruce Lee are played out of proportion.
It is said that he was "SOOO" fast that the Cameras couldn't record his moves.
Yep, true but the technology than was lower and most good MA could do that.
But than few made movies.

Have fun.

[rubthebuddha]

plagiarism is one of the most common characteristics of celebrity is -- and that's what bruce lee was -- a celebrity.

just think of van damme if the punk tried philosophy. we'd have the retarded version of bruce lee.