black tiger

[Biejo]

What do you think of one of the greatest fighters of our time?

[DavidLatin]

LOL, he sure is the best in winning imaginary fights. I must admit that much. He must make Paul Koh proud.

[doug maverick]

do you have some kind of problem i don't fight imaginary fights so i don't know what your talking about second i made an open challenge to anyone only two people had the balls to take it one i had to trick into taking it what you *****es
never heard a peep out of you secound keep this on the koh forum never ever try to embarres me again!

[ngokfei]

I post this separate as I don't want to be pulled into that challenging thing going on the other thread.

Is there only one black tiger system?
:)

[Shaolin Master]

NO

Regards

Shi Chan Long

[doug maverick]

there are 2 styles of black tiger manly fu jow pai
formely known as hak fu moon then there black tiger which is a different style all by it self it was used by imperial guards to protect the emperor
during the song dynasty the legendary black whirlwind li kui (outlaws of the marsh/water margin)was said to be an exponent of this art not much is known except that it vanished after the song and re-appeared during the ching dynasty a trveling performer from shang dong(who was really a monk) was said to hold the skill. thats about all i know about it hope i answered some of your question,,,

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Hi,

There are five systems of Black Tiger of which at least one is Northern, the others being Southern.
Fu Jow Pai is based on the Black Tiger (Southern) system. Southern versions of Tiger systems are Hung Family Fist...and so...under the Hung Fist...we are all one family.
All the Best
GHD

[tenchi]

Which is the northen style? didn't know one existed

[Groundking1]

Imperial guards were trained in black tiger too?

White crane/lama/hop ga stylist also said Imperial guards trained in there system.

Then again white eyebrow people say that he was the teacher of the ching army; most notable is Kao Tin Chung the Ching Army general that burned shaolin.

And lets not forget General Yue Fueh who developed eagle claw, or is it chin na?, or xingyi? and also his own style Yue Ga/Ngo Fei?

So, how many styles did the imperial guard used??

[This message was edited by Groundking1 on 02-09-01 at 05:26 PM.]

[Je Lei Sifu]

The northern style of black tiger gung fu is the Shangdong Black Tiger Style. Only seen books on it. Never seen it in reality

Peace

Je Lei Sifu :cool:

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

[Takeshi]

there's an article in here about this other Black Tiger system. in article there is also a picture of a grinder dummy. anybody ever use this or know anything about it?

[Kung Lek]

hi-

there is a poster here and around that goes by the screen name "reemul".

he is a practitioner of the northern black tiger system.

I myself practice a black tiger system that is unrelated to Wai Hong's Fu Jow Pai and also is not related to Hark Fu Moon.

The Black Tiger System I have been given and practice is from Toisan (hoy sun) district of canton.
peace

Kung Lek

[doug maverick]

now i don't know about any one else but i remember way back when i said that you don't have to be apart of the fu jow pai organization to be consodered a master and kung fu magazine just printed an article that talks about a black tiger master who had nothing to do with wai hong organization........

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

Wai Hong's Fu Jow Pai is Not "Black Tiger".
He and his representatives never said that Fu Jow Pai was Black Tiger.

Fu jow Pai was formed out of Wai Hong's understanding of his lessons in Hark Fu Moon (a southern black Tiger system) and Hung Gar.

Fu Jow Pai literally means "Tiger Claw school/clan"

I study a sil lum black tiger style that is also unrealted to Wai Hongs system of Fu Jow Pai. It comes from Toisan District of Canton.

The black Tiger system you saw in the magazine is Hark Fu Moon which is the Black Tiger system name that predates Fu Jow Pai.
It is one of the better known black tiger systems.

So, in short, I have read a lot of the fuss and challenges about Black Tiger but no one seemed to comment that Fu Jow Pai is NOT black Tiger system and it never claimed it was, it was formed from the foundation of Hark Fu Moon and Hung Gar which are not exclusive to anyone or any organization and was practiced throughout southern china with many village masters knowing and passing the system along.

The problems come when people say they are teaching Fu jow Pai or are masters of Fu Jow Pai which is the system that Wai Hong created and therefore he has rights to claim the system as His and he has the right to appoint instructors exclusively for this system of Kung Fu.

peace

Kung Lek

[doug maverick]

yeah i know it's not the same but a few months back when i was speaking of this style alot of morons didn't believe me stating that wai hong's
fu jow pai/hark fu moon was the only real style, and that i was just making things up

[Kung Lek]

Well, Hark Fu Moon is a real black tiger style and Fu Jow Pai is a real tiger style, Shantung Black Tiger is Northern Shaolin Black Tiger, Hak Fu Pai is Southern Sil Lum Black Tiger, there are other Black Tiger systems also and probably a few more that fall into the category of "village" styles.

Black Tiger systems in general, from what I have seen,read,and heard, share some aspects with Hung systems.
It is probably due to the common Sil Lum roots of Tiger systems.

Other notable tiger styles are from all over.
Even non-cma systems are based on tiger style principles.

peace

Kung Lek

[The Black Dragon]

Hey

I actually do Fu Jow Pai kung fu in the UK. We are the only Fu Jow Pai club in our country, but it's really enjoyable. Last year we had Grandmaster Angie Papadatos come over, with his team. He's a bit scary but really friendly - have you heard of him? Also, what dress do u wear? We wear white thin tops with black trousers with white lettering down the sides that read:

***FU JOW PAI***

What do you wear?

____________________________

"Have the strength of a tiger yet the wisdom of an old man"

[Kung Lek]

I wear, pants, shirt and shoes (not necessarily in that order :D )

seriously though we do have a school uniform of black loose fitting KF pants, a t-shirt with our school crest over the heart and on the back and MA shoes of whatever choice you like (cotton gentlemen's shoes, competition regs, low tops...etc)

peace

Kung Lek

[SwiftKill]

I am sure you guys have been waiting for my response.
First of all blacktiger, if you had actually read the article instead of letting your ignorance read it, you would have understand why the article has nothing to do with Wai Hong's Fu-Jow Pai.
In the a rticle under the bold heading 'Shaolin Roots', paragraph one, is written:
"The founder of Siu Lam Black Tiger style was a Shaolin monk named Soo Huk Fu, a nickname that was given to him by his father. Soo being his surname, Huk meaning Black, and Fu bein g tiger (a very rare tiger). Hence the name Black Tiger. Today it is known as Huk Fu Moon, moon meaning association."

This paragraph in the article clearly states that the name 'Black Tiger', is just a NICKNAME given to him by his father and not by a m onk and don't even state that maybe his father was a monk because you'll make yourself look more like a idiot than you already have. Also, it does not say that the monk learned Black Tiger Claw Kung Fu in the shaolin temple. Therefore, Black Tiger in 'S iu Lam Black Tiger' is just a nickname. With this paragraph alone, one can clearly understand (the smart ones only) that the style named 'Siu Lam Black Tiger', is based on a NICKNAME only and not based on a true Shaolin Black Tiger Claw System. Also, wh at proves this statement even more is that the short fat pig in the article demostrating a technique application, does no tiger movement or application in the article. Guys, open your eyes! You search for truth but continue to walk by it.

As for you Kun g Lek, I don't know what the hell you are talking about stating that Wai Hong's representatives never said that Fu-Jow Pai was Black Tiger. You need to go back to their websites and re-read the history links but this time don't let your ignorance read it for you. Also, you know nothing about Wai Hong to say that Fu-Jow was formed based on his understanding. You will never come close to learn nor understand what the man has mastered. The bullsh*t Siu Lam Black Tiger System in the article is not one of the better know black tiger systems because it is not a black tiger system at all; it is a persons NICKNAME. Siu Lam Black Tiger is just a mix of northern and southern styles put together, nothing true and pure. What that tells me is that the person is a student of a lot of styles but obviously a master of none.
Fu-Jow Pai, Shaolin Black Tiger Claw Kung-Fu is a true and pure kung-fu system. It was a monk who passed down the system to two of his disciples with nothing else added; no hung gar, choy lay fut, tai chi, etc. nothing, just pure Shaolin Black Tiger Claw Kung-Fu because it takes a lifetime to master one system and as far as I know we have only one life to live.

So Blacktiger, you should not even talk because you can't even back up your words, punking out of a challenge you started. And Kung Lek, you need to get your facts straight.

Blacktiger, check out this link: http://www.fujowpaikungfu.com/update.html
it is about your B*tch Sifu Paul Koh. I thought you might be interested.

SwiftKilll

[Inquisitor]

Kung Lek, you betray your own ignorance as to the Fu Jow Pai system and kungfu history in general when you say that it was created by Ng Wai Hong (I am also curious as to why you would refer to him using only his first name). Fu Jow Pai is a system that has roots which can be traced to *at least* the 19th century, if not further. Ng Wai Hong learned Fu Jow Pai (and yes, it was called Fu Jow Pai at the time) from Wong Moon Toy. The only two successors to the Fu Jow Pai system, as taught by Wong Moon Toy, are Ng Wai Hong and Paul Eng. Any others who claim to know Fu Jow Pai learned it from one of these two. Fu Jow Pai has always maintained that it is in fact a "tiger system," and it is easily visible to any who have seen it in practice that it is such.
Obviously, there are other tiger systems out there; one would have to be a half-wit not to admit that. However, there is a problem between the Bo-Law Kungfu Association and the Fu Jow Pai Federation. The Bo-Law Kungfu Association is headed by "Grandmaster" Tak Wah Eng, whose only knowledge of kungfu comes from his uncle, who just happens to be Ng Wai Hong. Tak Wah Eng and Ng Wai Hong had a falling out, which led to Tak Wah Eng's creation of a new association/system. The Fu Jow Pai Federation, headed by Ng Wai Hong, maintains that if Tak Wah Eng wishes to call himself a grandmaster of his own system, then he has that perogative. However, his students should not be able to claim knowledge, let alone mastery, of Fu Jow Pai, as they are no longer members of the Fu Jow Pai lineage, but of Tak Wah Eng's new system. This is where the disparity comes in, as one of Tak Wah Eng's students, Paul Koh (whose real last name is Pantazakos), claims himself to be a master of Fu Jow Pai, which is not so. The Fu Jow Pai Federation, probably already a bit livid at the whole situation with Tak Wah Eng, did not appreciate his student's misrepresentation of their system. Hence, Sifu Hui Cambrelen (among others, I believe), has issued a public challenge to Paul Koh, who has never publicly responded.
On a similar vein of thought - any who claim to teach Fu Jow Pai or hold the rank of sifu in that system must have certification from the Fu Jow Pai Federation, signed by Ng Wai Hong. Any who do not are not true representatives of the style. However, this does not mean that there are not legitimate masters/instructors of *other* tiger systems.

[popsider]

Am I missing something here. From Inquisitor's email we get the following lineage for Paul Koh.

Wong Moon Toy - Ng Wai Hong - Tak Wah Eng - Paul Koh.

Are you saying Tak Wah ENg never learned the style, Paul Koh never learned the style, or simply that he hasn't been given a piece of paper to say he is official because you choose to recognise only certain branches of the lineage.

No axe to grind but what you say lacks logic.

[Inquisitor]

Tak Wah Eng gave up all rights to pass down the style of Fu Jow Pai when he decided to leave the Fu Jow Pai Federation and start a new system and a new style, of which he is the "Grandmaster." What is being contested is that if he wishes to be a grandmaster of his own system, he should not claim to teach his students Fu Jow Pai, as he left that style and now teaches what he calls "Hark Fu Moon." He gave up the right to pass down Fu Jow Pai when he left.

[doug maverick]

swift i don't care what you have to say all i said was that there are other black tiger systems out there but instead of reading my post you let your ignorence take over for the fact that you don't like me. you know i came back to the forum on a peace tip but people like you make it hard to be peaceful also i had the prevelge of meeting the great ng wai hong and i asked him about the bief between hui and koh (who's no longer my sifu) and he said that the actions of hui do not relate to other members of th fu jow pai organization and had he known about it he would have put a stop to it for the fact that his goal was to spread fu jow pai not turn it to sum kind of chinese triad. see swift your talking trash over nothing so get that monkey off your shoulders and relax martial arts is about having a calm spirit not spazing out every chance you get.
p.s. (fyi)i am now studing xing yi and wing chun from sifu v.a. thoma

[Inquisitor]

You do not speak for Ng Wai Hong. You are not even his student, nor are you a member of his Federation nor of his kungfu family. Do not put words in his mouth that cannot be verified. What you speak of can be attributed to your imagination, nothing more. This is a public internet message board; anyone can come on here and claim to speak for Ng Wai Hong (or any other respected master) or even be Ng Wai Hong himself.

"I was lucky enough to meet black tiger at Central Park and he told me that he's actually a student of Bruce Lee, who is still alive, and that he just likes to stir up trouble for the 'stupid traditionalists' and laugh at them while they yell at each other."

I rest my case.

[illusionfist]

Did you have to choose such a long name?

[Kung Lek]

Well, sorry I misinterpreted the magazine articles and website info. No need to get all testy about it there guys, a simple note would have sufficed.

Anyway, I'm sorry that you feel a need to get all militant and I certainly didn't intend to stir up any bad feelings.

You guys popped way to fast. Once again, I am not a student of fu jow and never claimed to be. Frankly the politics are to much for me. What I wrote was an interpretation of what I've read. I will check again of course.

anyway, peace.

Kung Lek

[Inquisitor]

Hopefully you understand where SwiftKill is coming from. If someone were to post misinformation as to your style or your sifu's style, I would be surprised if you were not quick to jump on such falsehood and give out the correct information (as you know it, of course). It may not have been done with bad intentions, but it can be a problem when bad information is spread around.
I was simply trying to "correct the record," as it may be. I hope I did not come off as offensive or meaning you any ill will.

[doug maverick]

this is why people laugh at the cma's not because of the skill but as kung lek put it it's the politics no i'm not wai hong pupil nor do i care to be i enjoy training in xing yi to much to think about going back to the hell that external martial arts has become with all the *****ing and have the time it's the students who do the *****ing so as to swift kill or anyone for that matter i have one thing to say *****ing is not gonna make you a better fighter just a bigger sh*t talker so i guess your a sifu of the art of talking(like we say in new york) cocka or crap you guys really need to stop what your doing your making your styles look bad

[Kung Lek]

Swiftkill, if you are a fu jow pai practitioner, then it is your error in making light of Hark Fu Moon.
Please go through the link below to the Waisingtigerclaw kung fu website where it explains the entire history of "fu jow pai".

this is waising tiger claw school which is an official fu jow pai school that has ng wai hong and his teacher clearly defined in the lineage and which in fact states clearly that fu jow pai is a modern day interpretation/version of Hark Fu Moon.

Once again, i reitereate, Hark Fu Moon IS a well known black tiger system that predates Fu Jow Pai.
Hark Fu Moon (Hak Fu Mun) is the Sil Lum Black Tiger spoken of in the article. Black tiger systems exist in many village styles throughout southern china. The tiger/Black Tiger systems of the shaolin temple were fairly widely dissemenated and to claim that there is only 1 is folly and just plain untrue. There may be only 1 Fu Jow Pai and that is fine, Fu Jow is a very effective style based on pyure sil lum tiger, but so are many other black tiger systems.

politics and ill feelings towards an individual does not atke away from their years of training, so nuff said about any other systems.

If you maintain your arrogant and ignorant stance it is those who do so that will continue to look foolish in the eyes of great Kung fu practitioners everywhere.

this does not take away from either system.

I do not feel that I have misinterpreted much afterall except that it was not "created" by wai hong but rather it came from his teacher who learned it from his teacher who learned "HARK FU MOON" from the monk at the Hoy Hong Temple :)

anyway, I think that they are all effective fighting systems and I believe it is those UNDER Ng Wai Hong who are trouble makers and who make these seemingly brash and apparently arrogant posturings about who's who and what not.

so, peace, and before you jump the gun on me or anyone else, get your own stories straight!


http://www.waisingtigerclaw.com/history_page/history.htm

Kung Lek

[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 03-30-01 at 12:11 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 03-30-01 at 12:13 PM.]

[Inquisitor]

Fu Jow Pai is derived from the style called Hark Fu Moon (but, while similar, they are no longer the same thing). The style of Hark Fu Moon that Tak Wah Eng claims to teach is not the same Hark Fu Moon taught by masters whose lineage do not come from Ng Wai Hong, Wong Moon Toy, or Wong Bil Hong (as Tak Wah Eng does). Those who teach Hark Fu Moon as it passed down from generation to generation (and called Hark Fu Moon the entire time) are separate and distinct from Fu Jow Pai, and are legitimate "tiger" stylists in their own right. LOL I hope that just made sense...

Wong Bil Hung was taught Hark Fu Moon by a monk from the Hoy Hung Temple. Upon the death of said monk, Wong Bil Hung renamed the style Fu Jow Pai out of respect for his deceased master. It is not presumptuous to infer that Wong Bil Hung also made his own modifications to Hark Fu Moon/Fu Jow Pai due to his knowledge of other styles at the time. Wong Bil Hung passed down the style of Fu Jow Pai to his nephew, Wong Moon Toy. At this point, the style had become Fu Jow Pai, and while related to/descended from Hark Fu Moon, was a separate and distinct style in its own right. It is curious to note that Wong Moon Toy also had prior knowledge of other kungfu styles before learning Fu Jow Pai. Again, changes were no doubt made to the style (however small) due to this. Wong Moon Toy passed down Fu Jow Pai to Paul Eng and Ng Wai Hong (who is now the grandmaster).

[SwiftKill]

First of all, I want to thank Inquisitor for correcting and clarifing (excuse spelling if it is wrong) Kung Lek's misunderstanding of Fu-Jow Pai's history.

As for you black tiger, (I will still call you black tiger because your new user name is not fooling me) don't become angry because I state the truth and prove you wrong. I am not responsible nor do I have control of your childish and ignorance ways; so don't try to reverse the situation by saying that I am *****ing because stating the facts or proving you wrong is not *****ing. I am merely correcting and preventing the bullsh*t that you are trying to spread around in this forum about Fu-Jow Pai for that matter so that other people who are not familar with Fu-Jow won't start to believe your crap and start to think as stupid as you. Also I do not hate you. Hate does not exist in my vocabulary; I will not let that emotion consume me. You must have a complex problem if you think that I hate you because I never said that I hate you.

And for you Kung Lek, Inquisitor already have said it for me. All I ask of you is to read any material throughly and carefully with an empty and opened mind. In doing this you will see that the answers are already there in front of your nose and nowhere else.

"Read with the eyes closed, and the Mind open."

If you guys want to chat sometime, go to the KungFuOnline chat room. I always check to see if anybody is there on Tuesdays, Wednesday, Thursday, Fridays, and Saturdays around 9pm to 11pm. If I don't see anybody I log off and go back every 15min to see if anybody is on. However, appear in your own true username that you use onÂ*the forum; don't be a whimp and show up with a different name.

SwiftKill

[doug maverick]

they never learn swift i don't get angry and you didn't prove me wrong all i said was there is more then one style of black tiger and you came out with all this non accitial stuff so don't get you panies in a bunch and if you don't by the name good it just tell's me i made the write choice why don't you look at my first post you'll see that i wasen't spreading anything.

[doug maverick]

oh and another thing i love writing up post cause i can always be sure that swiftkill will reply

[Inquisitor]

Just so you know, I am not picking sides on this whole matter. I am just trying to make sure that all the information put out by the crossfire between SwiftKill and black tiger is clarified and is not *mis*information. I hope you understand. =)

[NyHc]

If this forum went by ratings, Swiftkill would be a tremendous ASSet. But since, I believe, the main purpose of this forum is to inquire on, and share knowledge of kung fu...why the F*CK is SWIFTKILL allowed to post here!?!?!?!?!?

He is the most arrogant, rude, undisciplined, biased person on this forum. Although he does posess knowledge on certain subjects, he uses that knowledge to insult, degrade and condescend to everyone he encounters.

Yes, I DID study with Paul Koh for 2 years. I had certain, irrelevant reasons for leaving, but I will say this in his defense: he makes NO mention what-so-ever about Fu Jow Pai. Nor does he claim any of the techniques he teaches are Fu Jow Pai oriented. Yes, he HAS learned Wai Hong Eng's system through Wai Hong's nephew Tak Wah Eng, but he makes no reference to that (Fu Jow Pai). He's doing everything by the book. Paul Koh learned from Tak Wah (among others) and Tak Wah learned from Wai Hong...but if FJP wants no mention to be made of that, they got what they asked for. So what in god's name are you people talking about? I believe that is all FJP is asking, that he doesn't claim to be associated with them. And what of Tak Wah's other students that are now Sifus? Why no mention of them.

And ALL of you people who constantly bash him KNOW where his school is. I think you should show up there and wait for him to exit the school one night (b/c he won't buzz you up) and start throwing punches at him. That would be very amusing. Because regardless of what is said on or off this forum, the man has been studying for 25 yrs+ and he HAS kung fu. Or maybe you guys can just keep "emailing" him challenges, eh?!

[SwiftKill]

NyHc,

You must be a relative of 'blacktiger' a.k.a 'peacemaker'. The both of you need to grow up.

[NyHc]

The last thing I want to start is any kind of correspondence with you...
I have negative things to say about Bo Law, but I also have positive things to say. The negative things are for me to know and me to know alone. If I were 100% happy with the school, I would never have left. So I'm not sticking up for anyone.
I'm just stating that the man's ability should not be questioned.

And I have no idea who blacktiger is. Maybe if I saw his face.

We'll end it there.

[SwiftKill]

NyHc,

If you didn't want any correspondence with me then you should have not talk sh*t about me. If you believe the main purpose of this forum is to inquire and share knowledge of kung fu, then fine; that's ok. However, it should be the truth and right info, not some false bullsh*t that someone makes up or ASSumes to believe, especially when that person does not know the truth or does not have the right info.
Someone posting the wrong info can lead to more incorrect info. And to give you one good example, is the wrong info that you just recently posted. That info that I am talking about is you saying, "Yes, he HAS learned Wai Hong Eng's system through Wai Hong's nephew Tak Wah Eng," Tak Wah Eng is not Wai Hong's nephew. Because of one assh*le p os ting on this forum that Tak is Wai Hong's nephew, now others including yourself now believes that Tak is Wai Hong's nephew and this is the type of incorrect info that I am talking about. Also, Paul HAS NOT LEARNED Wai Hong's system; infact, he has not even come close to one 1/8 of the system.

As I read your post, it is clear that you know nothing of the s itu ation so stop talking sh*t, especially sh*t you don't know about. You are just confusing people with your worthless, incorrect input. Also, so what you studied with Paul Koh for 2 years; so what. I guess that make you feel as an expert in the FJP and Pa ul Koh situation; enough to make a comment; WRONG!
I am not a rude person but if you are rude to me then I will be rude to you. However, you are different, you are rude, ignorant, and stupid. Don't be a little troll hanging around under the bridge.

Swif tKill??

[This message was edited by SwiftKill on 05-01-01 at 11:21 PM.]

[NyHc]

You know what? you're absolutely right- on all counts.
The only reason I mentioned that I studied with him for (a short time, I know) 2 years was to say that I can vouch for his character and his ability.
But, when it all comes down to it, I CAN'T speak for Paul Koh, Tak Wah, Wai Hong, Hui Cambrelen.
I'm just a little curious as to what makes you able to do so. Actually, I'm not curious at all because I really don't care.
And don't throw that troll term around so much. I think if someone sat down and read the majority of your posts, that "troll finger" would be pointed in your direction.

"Swiftkill" I just want you to know that that's a very gracious, humble name to choose. That says a great deal about your character. :rolleyes:

You can respond to this if you so choose. However, this is my last post in this thread.

Good luck in your training, little man. Let me know when you finally learn the lost art form of TACT.

I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time who read this nonsense.

[This message was edited by NyHc on 05-02-01 at 09:13 AM.]

[SwiftKill]

NyHc,

If you believe that 2 years is enough to know ones character and ability, then it is obviously clear that you haven't experienced or seen the reality of life yet. You only know him as a teacher(ha!) within 2 years but not as person and that is because he is always portraying an act and not being his true self with his students. Example: When paul koh use to come to the Fu-Jow Pai celebrations with his old teacher Frank Yee, he spoke normally with us as any other english speaking person would. But when I visited his school one time, I noticed that he was faking a chinese accent as if he spoke chinese all his life. What a load of crap he is; now what kind of person do you think he is if he has to fake an accent? (hint: a tremendous bullsh*t artist)

Also, if there is something that you don't want to know about, then don't ask. What's that matter, unsure or afraid of the questions you ask.

As for someone pointing me out as a troll, I doubt it very much. But if they did, then fine, I don't care. I know who I really am and don't need someone to tell me otherwise; however, I am sure that those who do consider me as one will still read any of my posting in this forum and that is because, whether or not they will admit it, they respect me for defending and standing up for the Kung-Fu system and the people in it that I am studying.

Another thing. I am not throwing the troll term at you, I am telling you that you are a troll; especially the way you came out in your postings. I am not afraid to tell people in there face what I think of them. It is people who likes to point and label a person that are afraid. You see when someone points at a person and labels them, it is always done from a distance because they are chicken sh*t to tell them in their face. However, they should realize that when you point a finger at someone, you have 3 fingers pointing back at you. Think about it.

As for my screen name 'SwiftKill', it was given to me. I didn't make it up. However, I would like to know what you think it says about my character?
Now I wish all trolls were like you in a sense that if they were to keep their word about no longer posting messages in this thread, then this Kung-Fu forum would be a whole lot better. But, then again, that is not a trolls nature.

SwiftKill

[DF]

From the last post by Swiftkill,
Example: When paul koh use to come to the Fu-Jow Pai celebrations with his old teacher Frank Yee


Paul Koh was not a student of my Sifu Frank Yee. Not really a big deal, just want to clarify this.

peace

DF

[doug maverick]

alot has been happening since i left. i've been buisy training. but ah first of all swift kill uh when do you find time to train your always on the net, well screw it i really could care less i'm just here to say you should really stop trying to correct everyone you don't have all the answers, also i think this so called beef between me and you should end cause your beef was with black tiger not with peacemaker take this chance to be a true martial artist and make peace and stop being so ignorant as you always say to everyone on forum, practice what you preach you'll prabable have a witty comment for this but i could care less what you think, i feel i reached a level where word are just that, so everything you say is worthless your probable a guy who goes around stateing i know this and that but only train about ounce a week and thats it the rest of the time your on the net, i like your idea of correcting people i do it to but it's the manner you do it in like some kind of arrogant scumb bag, open your mind and stop being so bitter you'll live longer you just need someone to show you. well peace for now i'll probable reply in about a week you see i always train

[SwiftKill]

Hi DF,

You are right. I apologize for the incorrect info. The correct information is Tony Lau, and not Frank Yee. I apologize to all for my mistake and thank DF for his/her correction.

SwiftKill

[doug maverick]

since you didn't reply to my comments on page 2 i take it our so called beef is at an end this is a good thing and a first step in my mission to end the bullsh*t on this forum would you like to help swift

[SwiftKill]

Peacemaker, everybody knows you are blacktiger so you are not fooling anybody but yourself. Now what is this beef that you are talking about? I have no beef with anybody on this forum; this is just some pathetic way for you to get some attention. Also, nobody cares how much you been practising so give your fingers a rest and stop wasting the forum's time with your crap.

SwiftKillt

[doug maverick]

yeah i know everybody knows i was black tiger i made it known i'm just saying with a new persona comes a new personality i'm trying to stop the bickering whitch people like you and rolls seem to start all the time really could care less what you think about me the fact is you don't know me actually i would like to meet if you don't mind, i'll await your reply before giving a place day and time.

[antoine9891]

Well, sorry I misinterpreted the magazine articles and website info. No need to get all testy about it there guys, a simple note would have sufficed.

Anyway, I'm sorry that you feel a need to get all militant and I certainly didn't intend to stir up any bad feelings.

You guys popped way to fast. Once again, I am not a student of fu jow and never claimed to be. Frankly the politics are to much for me. What I wrote was an interpretation of what I've read. I will check again of course.

anyway, peace.

Kung Lek

I am really just logging on and seeing all of the bad CHI. Black Tiger no matter who is the current or past master is an EFFECTIVE FIGHTING ART. That being said we should show both past and present masters respect. We should also respect each other. I am more concerned with mastering the chi kung, forms and weapons than arguing. We could learn so much from each other... Isnt that what this forum is all about?

[Eddie]

wow. that took you 7 years to reply?

Cool. Maybe in 2015 you will reply to this. Hoepfully by then I'm living as a rock star in hollywood

[Drake]

**** you, Wyatt Earp!! Why can't we get along?!

[Eddie]

huh?!! Sprechen Sie mit mir?

;)

[loquito]

Hey Inquisitor,

Reading the posts regarding authorized Fu-Jow Pai instructors under the late Grandmaster Wong Mon Toy, you say there was only sifu Wai Hong and sifu Paul Eng. However, in Fu-Jow Pai history there is mention of the original 7 disciples of late Grandmaster Wong Mon Toy. I studied and trained with one of those disciples for many years and to my knowledge he, along with others trained and were authorized to teach Fu-Jow Pai from Wong Mon Toy.

Peace,
Michael

[doug maverick]

Wow who brought this thing back from the dead. its from the KFO days. wow

[David Jamieson]

That would be Antoine about a few posts or so up.

lol.

It is so cool when the archive gets searched on the web and somebody gets in a post on a long dead thread.

I love the refreshers and to see my old avatar having discussions. What's even better is that, even though it's been 7 years, I still hold the same view of it. Hey, I still practice Sil Lum Black tiger too! :p

anyway, Antoine, it behooves us each to take a look at the date on a post before responding.

Now, I still feel the same way about the overall subject on the matter, so, if you wanna discuss the style variations, I can probably give a little more insight now taht I've been working with another Black Tiger guy for about 5 years or so. And he too doesn't have anything to do with Wai Hong's organization and instead comes from China where he studied under the direction of Sifu Wong Cheung and learned his Black tiger style there. It is different from what I was taught, but the Sil Lum elements are there in the training methodologies.

[doug maverick]

and i also feel the same way that there are many defferent version of black tiger, that are unrelated to fu jow pai. man i was a teenager when this post was started. and i remember getting into all kinds of flame wars. thats when flame wars would happen at the drop of a hat. it was like the wild wild west back then.

[diego]

That would be Antoine about a few posts or so up.

lol.

It is so cool when the archive gets searched on the web and somebody gets in a post on a long dead thread.

I love the refreshers and to see my old avatar having discussions. What's even better is that, even though it's been 7 years, I still hold the same view of it. Hey, I still practice Sil Lum Black tiger too! :p

anyway, Antoine, it behooves us each to take a look at the date on a post before responding.

Now, I still feel the same way about the overall subject on the matter, so, if you wanna discuss the style variations, I can probably give a little more insight now taht I've been working with another Black Tiger guy for about 5 years or so. And he too doesn't have anything to do with Wai Hong's organization and instead comes from China where he studied under the direction of Sifu Wong Cheung and learned his Black tiger style there. It is different from what I was taught, but the Sil Lum elements are there in the training methodologies.
I got some Tiger techniques in the Hop Ga I do...suppossedly Hop Ga shared with Hung Ga and we all know the story of Hung Ga Tiger vs Crane...that's about all I know about the Tiger Gung except I really like it and would def' spend a good ten years under a a professor under the correct circumstance...Lama Fists and Tiger Claws is the ****:cool:

Kung Lek, I've heard the name white tiger...read a little blue black tiger book at the library ten years ago...little blue book shows a northern black tiger form I beleive...chinese book!.? What gives Black Tiger its Black flavor?.

[David Jamieson]

The only white tiger we had up in Canada was perpetuated by a guy who has now semi-diefied himself in our western provinces. A real treat of an individual. I think at one time there was a release of his court transcripts here on the forums wherein he more or less explained the method of his fraudulent fabrications under oath.

He still owns a chain of gyms that he calls kungfu training halls, but...well, that's here nor there.

the book you're talking about is likely 'shantung black tiger' and the form in it is more or less basic shaolin drills and not really any sort of meat and potatoes tiger system.

all the stuff in that book is stuff you will find in virtually any kungfu school, all classical arhat boxing stuff pretty much what you would see in the old shaolin wall paintings and such. So it has it's legitimacy in that sense and could be the foundations of a wider system that just isn't gone into with that publication.

the guy I train with now also comes from a Black tiger system that also share shaolin elements but is markedly different from what I was taught as a black tiger system. His version has more CLF flavour with the swinging arms and such while what I was taught was more Hung in flavour with emphasis on root and upper body power.

As for why it's called black tiger? Got me. Could be because of Su Hark Fu's name and an homage despite the differences across time and systems. Could be a cultural thing about naming more esoteric or secret practices as "black". Could be a sect name in a homage way, could be an underground group name in the 300 years rebellion, could be because of the simple principles employed and how that is mapped to black tigers or leopards(panthers), or it could be a little of all of that.

I honestly haven't met anyone who can state for certain 100% what it's about. they can with certainty explain their best understanding and may even 100% believe it in their hearts and minds. But nevertheless, it is not hard to find contradiction to that.

such is life.

[B-Rad]

Well, a black tiger is a tiger with an extremely rare genetic condition (makes them look black or almost black)... maybe it was chosen to seem mysterious :)

[B-Rad]

A little article on color meanings for Chinese culture:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/229684/chinese_color_meanings.html

Don't know if it's relevant or not, but still kind of interesting meaning :)

[diego]

The only white tiger we had up in Canada was perpetuated by a guy who has now semi-diefied himself in our western provinces. A real treat of an individual. I think at one time there was a release of his court transcripts here on the forums wherein he more or less explained the method of his fraudulent fabrications under oath.

He still owns a chain of gyms that he calls kungfu training halls, but...well, that's here nor there.

the book you're talking about is likely 'shantung black tiger' and the form in it is more or less basic shaolin drills and not really any sort of meat and potatoes tiger system.

all the stuff in that book is stuff you will find in virtually any kungfu school, all classical arhat boxing stuff pretty much what you would see in the old shaolin wall paintings and such. So it has it's legitimacy in that sense and could be the foundations of a wider system that just isn't gone into with that publication.

the guy I train with now also comes from a Black tiger system that also share shaolin elements but is markedly different from what I was taught as a black tiger system. His version has more CLF flavour with the swinging arms and such while what I was taught was more Hung in flavour with emphasis on root and upper body power.

As for why it's called black tiger? Got me. Could be because of Su Hark Fu's name and an homage despite the differences across time and systems. Could be a cultural thing about naming more esoteric or secret practices as "black". Could be a sect name in a homage way, could be an underground group name in the 300 years rebellion, could be because of the simple principles employed and how that is mapped to black tigers or leopards(panthers), or it could be a little of all of that.

I honestly haven't met anyone who can state for certain 100% what it's about. they can with certainty explain their best understanding and may even 100% believe it in their hearts and minds. But nevertheless, it is not hard to find contradiction to that.

such is life.

Thanks for the info Dave:)...something to think about.

B-rad thanks for the link.

[CoolHead]

Interesting! The Black Tiger you mentioned- Is it closed fist? Or is this a "claw style?" In Texas claw styles are illegal. Which means those who learned it were taught to run like hell if you were forced to use it. The Black Tiger I have seen features no claw postures, it's a slugger form- you know the one. You mention quite a lineage to Tiger, which makes me think you practice a rare art. Please share some details if you are able; does your school have an integrated conditioning tradition? Do you have any strict rules of stance or movement that makes your style different? What sort of kicks does your style feature? That kinda' thing. I am not one of these argumentative scholars, I am a private doer of dirties.

[Phil Redmond]

Well, a black tiger is a tiger with an extremely rare genetic condition (makes them look black or almost black)... maybe it was chosen to seem mysterious :)

Or it could be sneaky street fighting techniques. ;)

[B-Rad]

Good point :D

[doug maverick]

**** this is a seven year old post where the EF did u guys find this **** at.

[Laukarbo]

**** this is a seven year old post where the EF did u guys find this **** at.

but the last post before you is also 8 months ago....:confused::D

[doug maverick]

but i just remembered poting thius thing way back when i was a wee lad. i was like 16 or 17. man i been coming to this baord for to many years.

[Ben Gash]

But if Doug hadn't resurrected the thread, I'd have missed the statement that "claw" arts are illegal in Texas! WTF? Surely that can't be true?

[David Jamieson]

i love the idea of illegal claw arts.

as ridiculous as it may be.

lol :p

[TenTigers]

YOU'LL TAKE MY FINGERS WHEN YOU CAN PRY THEM FROM MY COLD, DEAD...um..Fingers?

[Laukarbo]

but i just remembered poting thius thing way back when i was a wee lad. i was like 16 or 17. man i been coming to this baord for to many years.


ahh got u bro...its like a blast from the past:D

i didnt realise it was ur thread...

talkin bout claws,i recently watched enter the dragon again..Mr Han got some bad arse claws in his shelf...:D

[TenTigers]

Or it could be sneaky street fighting techniques. ;)
Basically.
In Hung-Kuen, the term Black is usually used when referring to more vicious techniques. It could simply be the name they chose to match the image they were seeking.

Remember Black Talons? Black,9mm notched hollow points. They made such a big stink about them, that they were taken off the market."They cut through the body like a buzzsaw"was some of the bad press the politicians used.

The exact same bullet is produced by another company and they're called,"Golden Sabers." Shiny Gold notched hollow points.Very heroic-no ban.
Look at Glazer "Safety Slugs." A safe, happy bullet. Great for kids and pets!

If they painted the bullets powder blue and named them "Fluffies," there never would've been a problem.

So, if you wanted you style to strike fear in the hearts of men, would you name it "Fuzzy Tiger," or "Black Tiger?"

[David Jamieson]

*snip*

So, if you wanted you style to strike fear in the hearts of men, would you name it "Fuzzy Tiger," or "Black Tiger?"

Fuzzy - Happy- Tiger. Yes.

[doug maverick]

In Hung-Kuen, the term Black is usually used when referring to more vicious techniques. It could simply be the name they chose to match the image they were seeking.

Remember Black Talons? Black,9mm notched hollow points. They made such a big stink about them, that they were taken off the market."They cut through the body like a buzzsaw"was some of the bad press the politicians used.

The exact same bullet is produced by another company and they're called,"Golden Sabers." Shiny Gold notched hollow points.Very heroic-no ban.
Look at Glazer "Safety Slugs." A safe, happy bullet. Great for kids and pets!

If they painted the bullets powder blue and named them "Fluffies," there never would've been a problem.

So, if you wanted you style to strike fear in the hearts of men, would you name it "Fuzzy Tiger," or "Black Tiger?"

so do they call african americans black people to strike fear into the hearts of other races. hmmmm........i'm kidding people chill out

[Eddie]

so do they call african americans black people to strike fear into the hearts of other races. hmmmm........i'm kidding people chill out


Juts call them Americans. The term African American would deceivingly imply that you have actually been born in Africa, or have some kind of affinity with the place other than that your great grandfathers great grandfather came from there. If I had to move to America (and became an American), would I be an African American? I was born in Africa. Not black tho.

Back to black tigers...

were there actually such things as black tigers in china?

[doug maverick]

Juts call them Americans. The term African American would deceivingly imply that you have actually been born in Africa, or have some kind of affinity with the place other than that your great grandfathers great grandfather came from there. If I had to move to America (and became an American), would I be an African American? I was born in Africa. Not black tho.

Back to black tigers...

were there actually such things as black tigers in china?

yea that wasnt the point of the comment. im african american, my fathers parents came from africa but even if they didnt i would consider myself african american, nobody can tell me what i am, or what other people of african decent choose to associate themselves by. blh blah blah yackity shamackity. that wasnt the point of what i said i was making a rather amusing subtle joke about what one of the posters said about black being a fearful word. nothing about african american or american or none of that PC bullsh!t that i choose not to discuss or associate. this thread that i started so 7 or 8 years ago was about black tiger kung fu and thats what were discussing before you brought that **** up and just really cheesed me off. anyway back to the topic at hand, i'm not sure but i dont think there is a such thing as black tigers. if you read the above post you would see the reason thy call it black tigers and see why i said what i said above and then your gonna erase your nonsensical post because it was pointless. good morning

[Eddie]

sorry... my post was really tongue in cheek. Apologies if I offended you. If you didnt knwo that about me, then Im so sorry ;)

I do actually have an article somewhere which I can contribute to this discussion (on the Black in Black tiger), but for some weird reason I cant seem to find it on my pc.

I know the Tai Sing Pek Gwa Black tiger form. Form is pretty fluid with quick foot work, slightly different to the other tiger forms I have seen.

[jmd161]

Basically.
In Hung-Kuen, the term Black is usually used when referring to more vicious techniques. It could simply be the name they chose to match the image they were seeking.

Remember Black Talons? Black,9mm notched hollow points. They made such a big stink about them, that they were taken off the market."They cut through the body like a buzzsaw"was some of the bad press the politicians used.

The exact same bullet is produced by another company and they're called,"Golden Sabers." Shiny Gold notched hollow points.Very heroic-no ban.
Look at Glazer "Safety Slugs." A safe, happy bullet. Great for kids and pets!

If they painted the bullets powder blue and named them "Fluffies," there never would've been a problem.

So, if you wanted you style to strike fear in the hearts of men, would you name it "Fuzzy Tiger," or "Black Tiger?"


You're pretty much right on with this as pertaining to Hak Fu Mun. Hak Fu Mun was named so as to So Hak Fu's nick name given to him by his father, as said earlier. A Black Tiger is very rare and unlike a White Tiger which is forthright, a black Tiger is deceptive, sneaky and devious. Hak Fu Mun has often been considered occult.


jeff:)

[David Jamieson]

Greetings,

The term "African American" is actually improper English. The correct term is American African, Amer-African for short.

The term "African American" actually refers to people who live in Africa who are of American ancestry.



mickey

"african american" is PC horse hockey.

Just 'American' will do. :)

[David Jamieson]

Hi DJ,

I understand what you mean, fully. Oftentimes, those terms are used more to differentiate than to bring people together. We still have the the American Chinese, the Chinese Americans, and so on.

mickey

I know, it happens up here in canuckistan too. "scottish canadian" is my favorite. lol. especially when one considers most of these folks have never even been to scotland.

when people ask me, I tell em I'm Canadian. When they say, yeah, but what's your background, I strongly reiterate.

Born, bred and raised and allied to no other. Oh yeah eh. :)

[Eddie]

and that was exactly the point to my whole contribtion to this topic :)

[doug maverick]

ok you people do know that when people call themselves african american or chinese american etc. its to acknoweldge their ancestry right? are any of you who are saying what people should call themselves of any ethnicity besides white?hmmm... me thinks not. listen im gonna say this once and once only keep this thread on topic or i will erase it. this discussion is closed. you can pm me if you want to have a debate on the issue of culture in america. but not here. anymore is this **** and like i said this thread goes away. as much as it would pain me since this is one of my first threads from way back in the day when this forum was over at kfo.

[David Jamieson]

ok you people do know that when people call themselves african american or chinese american etc. its to acknoweldge their ancestry right? are any of you who are saying what people should call themselves of any ethnicity besides white?hmmm... me thinks not. listen im gonna say this once and once only keep this thread on topic or i will erase it. this discussion is closed. you can pm me if you want to have a debate on the issue of culture in america. but not here. anymore is this **** and like i said this thread goes away. as much as it would pain me since this is one of my first threads from way back in the day when this forum was over at kfo.

I think we give ourselves mental handjobs all the time. I think we trap ourselves into little boxes of reality that are removed from actual reality. I've done it myself.

But, if you are gonna profess a nationality, why not the nation you're in?

Point being, nationality is not ethnicity, ethnicity is not race. we are all human, period and we live in nations by construct.

Nobodies telling you what to be. On my part, I'm stating my beliefs and one of them is that clinging to the concept of ethnicity is an error and is reflective of underlying racism and is used as a mechanism of racism. Which is also another construct that we create ourselves to further separate ourselves from each other and thereby impeding our growth mentally and spiritually as beings.

The more boxes we put ourselves in, the more we lose our ability to grow.

and that's all I'll say about it.

Of course, if that offends you and makes you want to delete the thread, then so be it. It's just a thread. :)

[mickey]

Okay doug maverick,

Though I really do not think I caused a foul, I deleted my posts.


mickey

[doug maverick]

Okay doug maverick,

Though I really do not think I caused a foul, I deleted my posts.


mickey

i just dont want to go down the toilet of race and culture and who should be called what and all that bull****. this is a free country if i wanted to call myself a monkeys uncle that should be my perogative as an wait for it........wait for it........AMERICAN!!!! anyway lets continue with the topic at hand.

[Drake]

I think the point is having a standard. Sure, you can call yourself whatever you want, fair enough, but making up terms in order to somehow soothe someone's oversensitive nature will only confuse those with whom you are trying to communicate.