CMA and JMA breakfalls

[Octavius]

Hi guys, is there a difference between Chinese and Japanese style breakfalls? I guess I am referring to Shuai Jiao in particular and Judo/Aikido style falls and rolls on the JMA side. I know of the JMA stuff, but am thinking that one can only fall and roll on the ground in only so many ways. But I read somewhere that the CMA version is a little different, more "internal". I am not sure what that means. Thanks.

[chen zhen]

Internal breakfalls?!:confused: :confused:

[Water Dragon]

Japanese breakfalling basically uses the arms to disperse the force. This is why you see them slap the mats.

The Chinese method is to try and compress the body into one big chunk so things don't go "Bang" when you hit the ground. You don't want your head banging around or your innards sloshing around. This is why the Chinese falling looks like a fetal position.

The Chinese way hurts more at first, but you get used to it. It's also good for body conditioning. From what I hear, when you start adding velocity into the throws, you can actually break your arm if you fall using Ukemi. I don't know, as I can't take those falls yet (see conditioning above)

There's probably people who should've answered this instead of me. But who knows? Maybe this can spark some discussion from both Chinese and Japanese enthusiasts.

[SevenStar]

you beat me to it, ah well. Actually though, I've seen CMA who use japanese style breakfalls, with a few mechanical differences. I was wondering if the method you mentioned is specific to shuai jiao, as I've really only seen it used among shuai jiao players.

[Water Dragon]

I got a video of me & Lil Joe throwing each other in his bedroom. I get a good one on him and you hear him yell JUDO FALL!!!!!
Remind me to show it to you next time you come up. It's funny as he.ll

[wu_de36]

i was under the impression that shuai jiao breakfalls end in a curled up position to protect the fallen individual from kicks.

I have worked with both judo and shuai jiao players and found their falls to be essentially the same. The judo players slap to help disperse force while the shuai jiao folks use their hands to protect their heads.

thats the only difference i've really seen.

[GLW]

Actually, the idea in Shuai Jiao falls is borrowed from animals...many animals land by spreading their body out flattening and doing the animal equivalent of a Shuai Jiao fall....idea being a antural...spread out the force over a bigger EQUAL surface area and you have less chance of getting hurt.

My understanding of the Japanese throw is to do two things...first to absorb part of the force initially with the brak hands and second to allow the connection of the arms to the floor to bring the muscles of the body into play to ease the body down (albeit very fast) sort of like learning to jump and land toe to heel to legs instead of flat footed....

Which is better...beats me. I imagine that at high levels they tend to become pretty much the same...sort of like everything else in martial arts.

[Water Dragon]

There are levels to Ukemi? Cool!

[GGL]

This is one of the single most important element of Shuai Chiao.. that is to fall correctly... master chang specifically taught people to fall with their hands protecting their head and curled up in a half fetal position.. this is to protect their vital organs and so they can fight their way up.. not pop up and begin fighting agian.. this usually brings forth a fatal blow to the head.. I'm know JMA and CMA have different ideas on how to fall effectively... I took Judo when I was a child and now full force into Shuai Chiao... I think Shuai Chiao have more realistic falls.... my instructor once told my about a book written by a well known Judo instructor... he said that he implemented a Judo fall on cement and only shattered his elbow and forearm.. and he shuttered to think what would have happen if he did a Shuai Chiao fall

My instructored reply was that he did a Shuai Chiao fall going 50 MPH on a Honda CBR 600 and walked away with a couple of scraps and bruises.. hmmm beats a shattered arm

or maybe he was just doing the Judo fall wrong... I don't know this is just my opinion... I guess if I thought wrong.. I would still be in Judo...

Once I think about it more.. i think the body style has something to do with it also.. I am weigh about 165 lbs with boney arms... so the Judo falls can kill the elbows a lot

anyway latta
Greg

[SevenStar]

now that's an interesting thing to bring up... Do you think different body types would be able utilize one method of falling better than the other?

[Water Dragon]

I always thought it was to pack the organs? Anyway, my school is beginning to prepare my body to take power throws, and the big thing they're preaching is tuck-tuck-tuck!

[GGL]

They give good advice to tuck tuck tuck... I know this may sound stupid.. but have you ever landed on your kindney... it just plain sucks... it doesn't hurt THAT bad.. .but its is dull and lasts forever.. if you have good falls then you will have no problem... I think if you can take one you can take all of them... again just remember to cover your head and tuck..

I remember when i had my first degree.. i had to fighe 15 round of 3 min of full contact.. yes it sucked.. and when i looked back on it the only thing that really saved me is falling correctly.. .. every round was cycled out with a fresh guy.. no matter how good you are you were still hit or thrown.. that is just life..

oh well... mo power to ya.. I'm going to get anoter beer

[SevenStar]

I've had a similar test. I like to spar, so I was ****y in the beginning, then I started to tire. I agree, it sucks. :)

[taijiquan_student]

Falling is something that we do a fair amount of. I once got flipped by my teacher's 300 lb. senior student, and fell the wrong way--I couldn't walk properly for a month because of an inflamed muscle in my back. Needless to say, I fall correctly now!

We fall by rounding the back, tucking so you don't hit your kidneys or your head, and some other things. The shuai jiao falls sound very similar to what we do.

[Water Dragon]

This thread is an excellant reason for having a grappling arts board here.

[Octavius]

Wow, thanks for all the replies, gentle-folks. It's good to see a thread that's both informative and entertaining. Who woulda thunk it?

A couple of questions for y'all.

1. So in Shuai Jiao, I am gathering that one does not slap, but rolls into a fetal-like position when thrown? Is this specific for side falls only, or also back falls too? Are there any good resources for learning this type of falling, aside from a teacher, obviously?

2. What about rolls in CMA? I mean the type of rolls you see aikido guys do when tossed. I read that SJ throws are meant so one cannot land safely, but I am guessing that perhaps at some high level one would have to ability to still receive it so he/she can meet the ground and use the momentum to come back up instead of counting stars?

3. And finally, is this kind of ground...meeting skill taught much in most of your schools? My experience is that it is not (unless of course, it's a SJ school). But schools that do Mantis, HG, CLF, etc touch on these schools but don't really drill them enuf. Might be just the schools I have seen. What do you guys say?

To be perfectly honest, I think breakfalling is the most useful skill that one tends to use in everyday life (non-combative oriented). I mean, there's a higher probablity of me tripping and falling in some innocent, completely non-MA related situation than me getting into a real fight. ANyway, that's me.

[Water Dragon]

I'm just a beginner in SC. But my experience is that you just tuck and pray. I've been thrown on all parts of my body. Back, Butt, Side, Face, Knees, etc. You just tuck up and land. There's not really time to take a fall. One moment your standing, the next your on the ground. You're just kinda dropped straight down. I showed my mom a video of myself taking a fall and she screamed, LOL.

Where are all the Japanese MA'ers on this thread?

[SevenStar]

We drill breakfalls at my longfist school. We also drill rolls. They are more of the mat slapping variety though. Shuai chiao utilizes the tuck method. I like this as now I have a wider repertoire of break falls, which may come in handy. Shuai chiao breakfalls (from what I've seen - I'm a newbie in that system) have the rolls incorporated into the breakfall.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yeah GGL, my first degree test also included lots of sparring - and who drew a lot first? My ChuGar teacher who was also my training partner in Shuai Chiao - and is one of those freaks of nature that is just plain dangerous with tons of fighting experience. I got beat up more in that first fight than all the others that followed - AND the tournement the next day. After that first one, I was chewing on tylenol like they were chicklets!

[Merryprankster]

Whoever said that "at high levels it probably all looks the same."

Yeah, that's pretty much, PROBABLY right. I haven't seen a SC breakfall, but I'm willing to bet the same principles apply to that, Judo, Wrestling. The body only behaves so many different ways as it lands on the ground :)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Whoever said that "at high levels it probably all looks the same."

Yeah, that's pretty much, PROBABLY right. I haven't seen a SC breakfall, but I'm willing to bet the same principles apply to that, Judo, Wrestling. The body only behaves so many different ways as it lands on the ground :)

That's correct MP. What we're studying here is more a case of nuance than anything else, IMO. I'd say that probably 80-90 % of the technique is the same across the board. The only thing I note to be different is the philosophy on how the body should react upon impact.

[anerlich]

Has anyone else looked at the rolls and falls in RMA, e.g. Sambo, ROSS, Systema?

One does not "fall" or "roll" as much as "engage the ground", which can be done in LOTS of different ways. Hard to explain via text, but one reduces the trauma of such falls by recruiting as many joints as possible into the engagement, using one or more sliding levers to slow and cushion the fall, and using relaxation and correct breathing and contact with soft parts of the musculature to dissipate and absorb the impact force.

I've had guys from Japanese MA's come to train and they've done energetic rolls and ukemi with much gusto and slapping of the ground, etc. I usually get their attention by performing a similar roll or fall but with much less noise and energy expenditure and much more control throughout the movement.

I should perhaps add that I was a high school and university gymnast competing at state level, with floor exercise and tumbling as my best event, so I do have a certain aptitude and experience.

Never seen Shuai Chiao, but I'm interested.

[Rolling Elbow]

I don't know enough about chinese breakfalls. However, while Japanese breakfalls do rely on slapping the MAT to disperse the force, it is understood that in a combat scenario, slapping the concrete with your hand will burst the blood vessels in your hand and leave you with a "dead" hand. Ideally, one learns not to be taken down. If he is, it is taught in other arts beyond Judo (ninpo for example) that you are thrown and land in a very compressed state on the ground. This would be closer to the fetal description made above..hands protect the center and the limbs are curled towards the chest..more like making yourself into a tight protected ball as you go over and hit the ground. Once on the ground, your limbs are free to strike or move as they may. Another form of breakfalling (and already mentioned) is using one of the hands to protect the back of he head from kicks as you land. The russians do this naturally when they are thrown. Kinda cool.

[Water Dragon]

I took about a hundred today. Well, I was supposed to take 120 but they broke me at the end. Man, it got so bad that I couldn't respond any more. I kept doing this thing with my elbow where it would hit the ground vertically and then my jaw would come down and crack my shoulder. I swear each one felt like taking a tight left hook. Here I am, on my belly, trying to crawl off the mat, and the instructor and senior student are laughing at me.

Oh well, today I proved myself to the group. I was told that they didn't expect me to make it that far. It's gonna be a good, good year :D