John Painter

[tnglng]

Recent Inside Kung Fu had John Painter, dressed as a commando, showing "warrior" bagua. Did anyone else see this? Is anyone else thinking it was self-promotion, bs? The best is a picture of him after breaking out of handcuffs, with a goofy look on his face.

What is the deal with this guy?

[count]

Shame on you. with 17 years experience in martial arts to share with us, your first post is critical of a teacher with more than double that. (not mine by the way) Oh well, welcome to the forum anyway. How about sharing something less politcal and more interesting?

[shaolinboxer]

Inside Kung Fu is all about promotion. As is Black Belt, Grappling, etc.

That's the entire purpose of the magazine (besides selling advertising).

Not that I don't read this kind of stuff. I think it's fun.

[Justa Man]

Count - True true.

Tnglng - I thought the article was alright. It gave a little insight on how weight training can develop ba gua skills. I didn't see at as self promotion though. I did think his formula on power or force neglected internal aspects, but the focus of the article was more on building external aspects anyway. As for my opinion on Painter, I once saw a video he put out on knife defense. I swear it should have been called 100 Ways to Get Stabbed. But I've never met the man, nor his students, so I can't form on honest opinion on his skills.

[tnglng]

Count:

Maybe I expressed myself poorly. My aim is not political, my frustration comes from a sincere love of these arts and a feeling that they should be presented in a better way.

Thanks for the welcome, I hope to add something good soon!

[count]

OK, you seldom see the arts in any commercial publication being done justice. How would you promote the arts to make the public aware of what to look for from a teacher. My feeling about the internal arts is most people are not even aware of the external training involved or the methods. They think it's all circle walking or forms or meditation. I thought the article in IKF want a fair distance to cover some of the external training in bagua. Each teacher has their own methods and reasons for presenting them to the public. You seem to have some internal and external background. How would you present it in an article?

[kungfu cowboy]

Hee-hee! I thought those pictures were HILARIOUS!! HAD to be intentionally done. Just had to be.

[tnglng]

First of all, I'd leave the theatrics out of the article. I think even the great masters of the past could not necessarily free themselves from handcuffs but when they stood up to move, they expressed the power enormously.

In a written article I'd recommend looking for a teacher who moved smoothly, who appeared relaxed yet powerful. It's true he spoke about some external training methods that are sometimes used for power development. I wouldn't necessarily recommend those since it can be counterproductive or akin to overtraining. Xingyi stepping with wu xing is very rigorous training, as is bagua circle walking (from my limited bagua experience). I wouldn't rush into the weighted vests, etc. Overkill. More is not always better.

[Sum Guye]

check out Painter's website for even funnier pictures.

In the article you mentioned, take a close look at the guy
Painter is throwing- although he's wearing large clothes, the
guy has a thin, shriveled up arm... it looks like Painter dressed up some 89lb crackhead and threw him for the photo.

He's the Barney Fife of the Martial Arts world.

[kungfu cowboy]

Doooode, you sure weren't kidding!:eek:

During his show business career John appeared as a principle in television commercials, numerous plays and motion pictures, including "Benji", "For the Love of Benji" and a walk-on in "Midnight Cowboy."

WHY on Earth would you mention any of THAT! It will earn you a wedgie!

Thanks, I think I have a new favorite site (http://www.jiulongbaguazhang.com/drp.htm) LOL!


I love the meandering prose he spews!

[Shin]

It it just me, or does the pic of John and his teacher look poorly photoshopped together? The lighting doesn't seem correct, the people's heads don't seem to fit on their body, the calligraphy in the background is way to sharp, at its frame casts no shadow. The most telling point seems to be the shadow on the ground.

Is it just me?

Anyone?

[kungfu cowboy]

Yeah, I noticed that too. L-A-M-E.

[sanchezero]

YA - the teacher's head resembles one of those 'head-in-a-jar' props from a B-serial killer flick. I think it wasn't cropped very well.

[Shin]

I keep looking through the site.

I like the moon gate pic too. Is this a mini moongate? Why is Dr. Painter in focus when objects at the same disctance are not?

And why does Li Longdao seem to have the exact same facial expression in every picture, right down the slightly open mouth?

[count]

Few teachers get more flack than Erle, Kumar and
Dr. Painter. Instead of what might have turned into an intellegent discussion on the benefits of adding external training to your internal you have this. Oh well. I still say if you only focus on internal training what you are doing is robbing from your external body and visa versa. There are specific external methods in bagua/hsing-i/tai chi chuan that are often overlooked. It is a shame people think they are learning a martial art with out the benefit of a complete program from a qualified coach or instructor. But you'll never know if you have the real deal unless you experience it firsthand.

As far as the article, I agree and disagree. Martial arts shown to public is for show. Dr. Painter can be quite a showman too. Probably due to his background. But unless you see someone in person and actually touch hands with them, your comments don't mean much. Anyway, welcome to the forums! I hope you enjoy.;)

[tnglng]

I think we can have a discussion about internal/external training methods AND have a few laughs on the side too. I didn't even know about the website, but c'mon..........it is cheesy. It made me laugh. I'm not discounting Painter completely, and you are correct, I have not personally touched hands with him. I didn't intend to tear him apart, and I still disagree with those methods of "selling" MA.

See you

[kungfu cowboy]

But why misrepresent the truth?

[count]

Would you care to tell us about your teacher and how he promotes the arts and himself?

Hey cowboy are you the famous Hugh D. Mann?

[Shin]

Count,

I could honestly care less about this painter guy, but the photos are obviously fake even if his skills aren't. Surely you can see and admit that?

[Justa Man]

i though some of his students checked these boards. maybe they can speak of the handcuff thing?

[count]

Would you care to let me know what you think I am in denial about?? I'm truely confused :confused:


Actually never saw the pictures you are talking about but I am an expert and that includes photshop. Go ahead and post anything you want to share. I have met Dr. Painter before. Did you also have some questions about him. Not sure I can answer but I'm sure I can point you in the right direction;)

[GreyMystik]

people sure are quick to jump on someone for having not met them before... even having MET them you don't always get the real deal (are you ALWAYS at your best when you meet people?)

just some thoughts...

[Justa Man]

true, and plus why would someone of painters stature (whether it's hype or not) even show his true skill for some schmo who questions the authenticity. what does he have to prove? alot of teachers can give two f-cks bout what someone thinks of them.

[kungfu cowboy]

Hugh D. Mann!! LOL!!:D I like that one better, count!

[TaoBoxer]

Ah yes..... The obligatory 3-times-a-year "Is John Painter a Fraud" thread. Whats the matter? No one had any new dirt on Bruce Lee?

I have stated my opinions before but it boils down to this:

The man trains full time, has a prosperous group, and gets to do nothing but what I love....Kung Fu.

He's a lucky guy. Even when I leveled my observations/ allegations at him, He was calm, level-headed and even polite. I have been to his home and trained with him personally. He is a large and powerfull man who can put out the Jing when need be.

Whatever the truth about his lineage may be, or his career as a stage magician, or his questionable theatrics, he was a guest instructor of the venerable Jou, Tsung Hwa, and was invited to write the Forward to Yang, Jwing Ming's Emei Bagua book. They didn't call me when they wanted somthing done.....

The buddhists say those who care to much about another mans opinion becomes his slave, and whatever else may be true about him, He's obviously no one's slave.

[kungfu cowboy]

Is there any truth to the rumor that he used to stunt double for Tom Selleck?

[Chris McKinley]

I may be taking this thread off-topic by posting this since I'm going to talk about his Gung Fu instead of his showbiz career, but oh well. I think Dr. Painter is playing an important role in the development of Baguazhang in the U.S. Our propensity in this country is to take internal arts and simultaneously overmystify them and water them down to pablum. Painter makes no apologies for teaching his art to be used for fighting, and I like that.

He's nowhere near as brutal as I am (heh, heh...had to throw that in), but his methods are workable in a real encounter. They aren't only useful to impress Beijing-ified acrobatics coaches. Some may argue that his teaching doesn't give enough emphasis on the subtler internal aspects. Perhaps such criticism may hold a kernel of truth. However, I've disappointingly found that in this country, those internal arts instructors who spend the most time talking about such things are usually the least able to actually apply their art in a fight, and at the end of the day, it's about teaching self-preservation skills, folks. The rest of the stuff to be found in the neijia is nice, but it can all be found elsewhere. The only thing that martial arts can teach you that can't be found in another hobby is how to actually fight, and I feel that Painter does as good a job as anybody in this country to produce students who can consistently apply their skills for actual self-defense.

Baguazhang instructors and practitioners make up a small enough community in this country that I won't mention anyone by name here, but there are instructors of Bagua in this country whose policy is to NEVER teach any applications of their art to their students. Throughout history, a lot of refinement and tactical development has been lost through that sort of cultural arrogance and forcing the students to re-invent the wheel with each generation. To such instructors I will provide a clue, free of charge: this isn't China. You can't get away with that crap here. If my evil twin were to come down and kick the cowpatties out of all of your top students, maybe you'd start to change your mind about the importance of applications instruction. But...I digress in a very silly way.

Basically, my observance of it is that the loudest voices of criticism about Painter and his methods within the Bagua community come from those with the greatest tendency toward, to borrow a word from Gary Romel, "p*ssification". There are a lot of guys in the internal arts in America who can't fight. Often to make up for it, they lounge around in Mandarin silk pajamas like some kind of wannabe Chinese Hugh Hefner, sipping their Lapsong Souchong and eating granola wafers, talking down their noses at anyone with a high enough profile to provide a decent target. Get off your candy *ss and go train!

Ahh, fuggit....I'm in a weird mood today cuz it's Saturday. Don't mind me, I'm just ranting. :P

[redfist]

the photo is a fake.
makes me wonder about the rest.
therefore we can look to another sifu of 9 dragon ba qua.
opps!
there is only one.
captain,doctor,shirfu,ex-six flags employee john"biff" painter.
he`s a self made man.we should all be proud!
it`s the american way.

[kungfu cowboy]

Well, I'm going to rent "Benji" and "For Pete's Sake! Benji: The Musical", and try to spot the dude.

[GreyMystik]

**** i never realized we have so many photography "experts" here :rolleyes:

i wonder if they're the same "experts" who said the titanic couldn't sink? ;)

convictions cause convicts.

guess i caught your 'gripe' bug there Chris :(

[redfist]

open your eyes.

having no convictions causes convicts.
his primary source of internal power comes from weight lifting and
he has good anerobic power,

who knows where his ba qua comes from,i would like to see one traditional sifu authenticate his lineage,not pat him on the back,
don`t hold your breath,it can`t be done or he would have done it by now,
ever hear of cut & paste?

the photo is a fake.

[Shin]

You are not in denial about anything. I just love that expression. :)

These are the pictures:
http://www.jiulongbaguazhang.com/graphics/drpmrli.jpg
http://www.jiulongbaguazhang.com/graphics/lilong.jpg
http://www.jiulongbaguazhang.com/graphics/liwalk.jpg

They all have the exact same facial expression/head.

Dr. Painter casts no shadow in the first picture... Is he a vampire, I wonder?

To be honest, I don't care if Dr. Painter is or is not the inheritor of Jiulong, or is or is not a great martial artist. That's not what I have an issue with. Odds are I'll never meet him, so I'm not stressing it. But these pictures...

[GreyMystik]

my eyes see quite well- and i see a picture that looks odd, i will say that much. i haven't examined the photograph in person, i haven't touched it, i haven't "seen" it even except on the internet, and i'm certainly not qualified to say whether or not a photo is "fake" or not. are you? my guess is no.

as to the statement "convictions cause convicts", well that's another debate, but we both obviously stand on different sides of that one, and i don't see any productive results coming from arguing with you on it ;)

[redfist]

why argue,
lets look at this rationaly,
i am not an expert in such matters as you have stated,
i did not have to be one to recognize this as a fraud,
but then again i have know this for better then a decade,

now as for my wife thats another matter,
she is a trained artist,i showed her the photo for the fun of it and when she stopped laughing heres what she said,

there were three cameras used to create the photo of him and his sifu,with pictures which were taken at differrent times,
1.the photo it self
2.the picture of painters face
3.a picture of li,longdao`s face
put them all together and you get....
you will never see this picture up close,

[taijiquan_student]

I won't say anything about John Painter himself, his skill, authenticity, etc., because I have never met him, and it will be a useless guess with no actual proof.

The one thing I will say is that it is obvious to anyone who looks that the three pictures of his teacher posted by Shin have the same head, and expression, and that in the first picture, Painter has no shadow while his teacher and the chair does. Just an observation, and I am not saying anything about his authenticity or actual skill.

[GreyMystik]

while i will agree that it appears that way from what we can see, all i am saying is that none of us can be certain (even your wife) unless we see the photograph in person, and even then anyone can make a mistake.
have you ever seen the movie "F for Fake" by orson welles? it deals with a man, Elmyr de Hory, who purportedly faked at least several hundred paintings, claiming them to be the likes of Picasso and other masters. many museums bought these 'fakes', and they were all authenticated by many 'experts' who were trained to LOOK for frauds and fakes. point being, even the so-called 'experts' can be fooled, so who knows? it's just a picture, and an odd one at that.

[Demon Fist]

I might be out of touch here, but who is this painter guy?

Is this really that condition of martial arts in the states, or is it pretty endemic?

Are people like this man really the forefront of bagua there?

Crap like this would never play in HK.

[redfist]

i bet those picasso`s where better done then that photo,
painter needs to see that movie, i will look into renting a copy myself,
thank you for the referral.

j.painter is a self made man,he learned something,somewhere.

there are authentic ba qua sifu`s in the usa, i don`t think this
guy should be taken to represent the state of the art here,

my point of this whole post was that this crap would never play in
hong kong or mainland china for that matter,
people here need to open there eyes.

[GreyMystik]

yes, you may be correct, i really don't know Dr Painter, i've corresponded a few times with him via email but I have never met the man so i can't really say... so you may be completely correct, i just withold my judgement on matters such as this as much as possible until i get a chance to verify for myself. there are alot of people (not necessarily saying you here) that point fingers and say 'this guy is fake, that guy is legit, etc' and they ALL seem to think THEIR sifu or master is the 'real deal' , but they can't all be right can they? so i guess what i'm saying is, i dont' know if Dr Painter is the real deal or not and i'm refusing to believe one way or the other based solely on a strange looking photograph or his inclusion of his previous employement on his website... i'd rather meet the man and judge for myself
peace and respect

[fiercest tiger]

Fake, greymystik come on man you must be able to see that?:D

all your circle walking has made you dizzy..lol;)

take care
FT

hows the new style going?

[GreyMystik]

hey buddy things are going well, how's the school in oz? still growing? say hi to all the folks down there and keep it real :)

[fiercest tiger]

ill pass on the message no probs!

Remember to do your abdominal massage everyday for health.:D

watch for commets in the big dipper too...:p

[maoshan]

There is no doubt in my mind that these photos are fake.
Why? I don't know. But they are.

Greymystic,
as you said : Keep it real. Do that with yourself.
Life is not that perfect that those pictures could be as they are.

Maoshan

[blacktaoist]

Red fist you are right them pictures are fakes. Any boby can tell that john painter paste that unknown chinese man head on his own body".

As for Mr. Painter skill, I don't know how good he is, I never crosshands with the man. But in my opinion them pictures of him and his Known teacher are fake.

[blacktaoist]

Man The more I look at this picture, If you look at john painter picture of him and his teaher you can see his teacher don't even have a right ear. Fake , Fake, Fake".

[blacktaoist]

Yo, maoshan go take a look of john painter So-called Baguazhang sifu solo pictrue.The man don't have a right ear. What Bull$hit".
Is his Sifu the one ear BaGuaZhang master. I think Painter should have took a class in cut and paste.

What do you think Maoshan?

[maoshan]

Yo,
I don't Know why he did this but, you can tell that when the head was cut from the original background that the ear was cut or erased from the picture. If you look at the right side of the head it's a little blurry. The picture is a frontal shot. the same shot in all three pictures. All three missing that right ear. Also you can see in the student teacher pic where the head connects to the body at the neck. There's a horizontal line that ends at the shoulder on the left.
The body walking the circle is not the body seated. I could go on,
but the damage is done.

Why did he do this? I can't figure it.

[Chris McKinley]

Well I already spouted off about what he teaches, but man....those pics are pathetic. The contrast, angle of light reflection, and proportion don't match the rest of the pics. The identical expression and face angle are probably the worst. The hair is cropped poorly and looks to have been filled with a color dropper mask. I hope these are the work of his webmaster or something rather than him. Oy ve.

[count]

I agree the website is weak. The portrait is obviously a section from the picture of the man circlewalking. And it does appear the seated man in the bai si photo has a different body than the man circle walking. But what I don't understand is why someone with 40 plus years in and a huge following of students needs to fabricate lineage and credentials to promote what he does. Too bad, so to the orignal poster (tnglng), I agree that kind of promotion is in bad taste. Gompa/Biff/Dr./Captain Painter. If you are looking in, I didn't think the article was bad, but could you address the website issues?

[count]

Hey Maoshan, BT,
Maybe the teacher had his ear bit off in a fight?

[redfist]

i could not help revisting this,
the photo of li long dao walking the circle,
looks like it actually may be painters body with the head of an oriental person pasted on,
who founded the texas rangers?
j.painter did.
doctor of what? i mean to say that in the usa it`s common practice to refer to someone with a p.h.d. as doctor,
to achieve this he would have to give a dissertation,perhaps he could make this public and the collage where he received his doctorial degree,after all,
i may be a perspective student,and would like to verify who i`m training with before i put down my hard earned cash.
i beleave the six flags employee part,

if you can`t dazzle them with brillance,baffle them with bull****.
- a lawyer i once knew

to black taoist and mao shan,thank you for keeping it real.
we are a much more educated consumer,that b.s. would have worked twenty,or even fifteen years ago.

[blacktaoist]

Count) Hey Maoshan, BT,
Maybe the teacher had his ear bit off in a fight?

BT) Maybe his teacher met big mike tyson when he was a kid, up coming in boxing.

I just don't understand why John Painter would put them fake pictures up. Today I show the pictures to a few Chinese friends of mys. Boy did they LOL.

Anybody with some logic can see that is John Painter body in them pictures. The walk the circle photo tells it all.

The more I look at Painter photos the more fallacious things I see. If you guys look at the banner on the right side of his teacher, You see that the banner only reads BaGuaZhang in Chinese. The banner should have feature his teacher family style name. This is the first thing my sifu point out to me when I show him the photo. After all Painter says his BaGuaZhang is a part of a family system that teach BaGua, Hsing YI, and Tai Chi. Hey Maoshun you want to hit more on this? LOL....

Redfist) you are so right". to black taoist and maoshan,thank you for keeping it real.
we are a much more educated consumer,that b.s. would have worked twenty,or even fifteen years ago.

You can't fool the traditional comsumer of internal martial arts. with bull$hit pictures and cut and paste general BaguaZhang banner. $hit" even the banner is a cut and paste job.

People do any thing to make money in a America.......:D

[tnglng]

When I made the original post, I had not seen Painter's website yet. It is worse than I would have imagined. Having said that, none of what we say or do here will affect his large following of students.

There will always be two kinds of people in the world: the cheaters and the cheated. Many people will see this website with its fancy school with pretty statues and talk about numerous gun and knife fights, blah blah blah. Those kind of people want to be cheated, and there will always be those ready to do the cheating. Blind followers just annoy me, what can I say.

Count, you asked how my teacher promoted himself, he really didn't at all. A language barrier prevented him from reaching many non-Chinese, which worked out well for me. Unfortunately he passed away only 1 month ago. This is a sensitive issue for me now. Hence my original post, I found that stuff so distasteful.

[taijiquan_student]

Hey BT. Others have said it, but thanks for keeping it real, man.

I just looked at the banner in the teacher/student photo, and the banner in Chinese reads "Jiu Long Ba Gua Zhang" (9 dragon baguazhang), not simply "Ba Gua Zhang". Maybe that is what you meant though, and it should have something more on it. Sorry if I'm mistaken--just an observation.

Thanks again BT.

[blacktaoist]

Taijiquan Student) I just looked at the banner in the teacher/student photo, and the banner in Chinese reads "Jiu Long Ba Gua Zhang" (9 dragon baguazhang), not simply "Ba Gua Zhang". Maybe that is what you meant though

BT) That is what I meant to say. But I thought most people would know that the top of the banner reads jiu long . But I should have point that out in my post reply. My Bag".

But no matter what his banner should have more characters on it".

Peace Taijiquan student.:cool:

[count]

Deepest sympathy over the loss of your teacher. I know that's a hard one. Your profile says 17 years, was that all with him?

I'm am fortunate that not only does my teacher speak english well, his grasp of language is so good that even when he is speaking Chinese, I understand what he is saying. And he is not the commercial type at all. In fact, we don't even have a school right now.

Anyway, I knew this was a touchy political subject. We haven't even heard from the ones on the forum who do study that system yet. That's why I questioned it as your first post. But I understand how you might feel that way. Again, sorry for your loss and welcome to KFO!

[maoshan]

You know over the years I read just about every thing painter wrote On Ba-Gua from his first published work in inside kung-fu
until recently. Like Count said: With all you've established how could you?, Why would you? I've always had a problem with the lineage. Now the rep with the true IMA is utterly destroyed and I won't stand with him

I don't have the computor skills that some of you guys have but in my posession among my library I have the pictures of painter in the seated pic as well as circle walking pic the head is superimposed.
Also If that is the grandmaster that he always wrote about, than the Banner is quite wrong. Because his ba-gua is apart of the system that the Li family was supposed to teach. and I can't remember the name that he gave for it and i just don't feel like looking for it.
All in the name of money?
I would have felt that he had more intregaty than that. Ba-Gua is the world to me. By our conversations I thought it was thye same with him. How wrong I was.
But as all of ya'll know, we keep it real. and because of that fact
I can't keep quiet about this. I won't go all the way to the wall with this, but I will say, IT'S ALL A FRAUD and has been.

[blacktaoist]

Maoshan I call you later. As for John painter I have no more to say. I know the truth. If people want to learn from him, may god be with them.

Peace All.

[Sam Wiley]

You've got the originals? Can you upload them here?

Holy sh!t! Why would he fake some pictures if someone out there had the originals? That is idiocy!

You know, Painter and some others have a hard enough time proving lineage without resorting to that. It just makes it look like he's been lying the whole time, even if he hasn't been.

I showed those pic's to a friend of mine, who pointed out some other things. Basically, they all pointed to the pic's being really bad fakes. I have seen some of the work my friend has done with photoshop filters and stuff, and he does WAY better fakes than whoever did Painter's pic's. You have to blow his up several times to see the touchups, and he isn't even a pro. (My friend does celebrity fake porno shots, not martial arts lineage fake pic's.)

One thing I noticed is that the gray border around the calligraphy is thinner on one side than on another. If it were real, the thing would be framed perfectly centered. Besides that, as noted before, the writing is too crisp and bold.

In any case, he could have at least enlarged the dude's head a bit. The only people with bodies that big and heads that small I have ever seen were freaks in a movie. (Actually, the movie Freaks, about a carnival.)

I really want to see the originals, though. That would prove everything. Or disprove it. Whichever.

[fiercest tiger]

maybe his head is on the pic of Lee Harvey Oswald, maybe he shot kennedy? lol

everything is fake even the banner with the characters isnt sitting in the centre properly.:D

[Sam Wiley]

I got to thinking about something I read on his site. On one page, there's a bunch of pic's of him with weapons, and at the bottom there's one with him holding 2 daggers. The caption says that that form was a speciality of his master but since his knives don't exist any more Painter had some designed based on drawings and specs left to him, and the caption gives a description of the originals. The problem is that the knives in the picture are not of Chinese origin (they are Afridi knives from the Khyber Pass region, if I remember). That says nothing about whether or not his master liked to carry them, but they are not ones Painter had designed. If he had some knives designed, wouldn't he have posed with them?
The page from Painter's site (http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/weapon.htm)

The same knife on Atlanta Cutlery's web site (http://216.245.165.123/cgi-bin/www11651.storefront) (Go to page 2, item no.13, of the section on Fix Blade and Tactical knives, it's labelled "Khyber Fighter.")

I have attached a jpeg of the Khyber knife I bought for my stepfather in December from Atlanta Cutlery, which is the same one as in the pic on Painter's site. If Painter had his custom made, he paid way too much for them. I only gave $12 for this one.

Also, I couldn't get the pic of the knife on Atlanta Cutlery's site to load for me, so it may be the wrong one, but the price and description fits the knife I bought in December.

What I don't get is why someone would,
a)have the knives designed and pose with completely different ones, or
b)lie about the knives themselves, as I have never heard of this kind of knife called a "dragon's" anything, or
c)make something like this up completely.

[Shin]

good catch on the knives Sam.

Didn't Kevin Wikse used to study with Painter? What happened to him anyways?

And how long do you think it will be before these pictures disappear forever? You can't save them from the site, so if this gets too hot to handle, they could just "disappear". Don't worry though, I've secretly sent copies to a safe deposit box in switzerland.


BT, the style was called daoqiquan.

There are a few other inconsistencies on the site too. Most of the ages are correct, but it claims the teacher died at the age of 100, in 1980, but he was born in 1890.

Also, the picture of the li family mauser say's it's a .45. The statement about Li says he was a crack shot with his 9mm mauser.

I'd really love to hear an explanation for this. I don't have anything against him, and I'd never heard of his lineage before, but I do think he should have a chance to say his piece as well. It's easy to convict a man who can't speak in his own defence.

[Guandi]

>You can't save them from the site, so if this gets too hot to
>handle, they could just "disappear".

actually it's very easy to save the pics. All you have to do (with MS Internet Explorer) is grap a picture and drop it eg on you desktop. That's all.

Guandi

[red_fists]

Another method is as follows:

A lot of sites prevent you from doing a right-click.

Not a problem save the URL in Notepad.

View the Page source and look for the picture link. Some idiots but the WHOLE Web-adress in that case you don't need the URL.
Use the Page URL and the Link together to form a NEW URL that links directly to the Image.

Enter URL and the Image ALONE will appear right click and safe.

If you want more than one Picture., save the Page source and remove all the stuff except for the picture links.

Most People also save their Images in a seperate sub-directory, but don't protect the Directory with an "index.html" file.

In which case you enter the URL up to the sub-directory and it should pop up looking like a FTP screen.
Right click on each entry and to "save as ..."

Viola.

P.S.: This won't work for sites like mine where the links are in an external javascript file.
:cool:

[Guandi]

I think it is necessary to distinct between his self promotion and his skill. That he has strange pictures on his site and is doing sometimes also some strange selfpromotional things does not mean that he is a fraud in the sense that he has not the skill he claims to have.

Lets say, although I have never met Mike Patterson, he is widely recognised as a good fighter and coach. If you go to his web-site and there to his teacher directory, you can see that he is saying that he has met Dr Painter personally and that he "can recommend these individuals [Dr Painter] with complete confidence".

Guandi

[tnglng]

Really? If Mike Paterson recommends him, that would be a pretty decent referral. I trained briefly with Mario Mancini when he was living here in NJ (one of Paterson's students) and he was a real fighter who could use bagua and xingyi well.

Count: Thank you for your condolence. no, not for 17 years. Only the last two years, unfortunately. I spent more time with him than anyone else in his family. Best 2 yrs of my life. We had so many plans, more to learn, oh well. It's very hard to find a teacher like that, you are fortunate. I know exactly what you mean about the language thing--I could understand it too, somehow.

[blacktaoist]

Guandi) I think it is necessary to distinct between his self promotion and his skill. That he has strange pictures on his site


BT) There is nothing strange about John Painter pictures on his web site. They are fakes" thats just the bottom line. Why would a person want to do self promotion with false pictures advertising that these photos are his teacher. Come on Guandi open your eyes man".

Here is some thing for you to think about Guandi?Why have Mr. John painter not have someone from his Style teach. $hit I know he is not the only person his teacher pass down his family style too. There should be some one alive from his teacher family.

As for Mr. Painter skills I can careless what people have to say about him now. The truth of the matter is the pictures on his web site is false. nothing strange about that in any form.

Yes the man may have some skill, but the pictures of him and his techer are fase. So that means his statements about him and his teacher are misleading and untrue.

You just can't justify lying. Don't be a follower of Bull$hit.

There is a old saying: No matter how hard you try to hide a lie in the dark. Sooner or later the truth will come out in the light".

Peace

[maoshan]

Sam,
I didn't mean that I have the original pictures. I mean that they are in old articles with the oictures attached. Like inside kung fu,
Or Internal arts mag.

It's sad man
Dam

[Sam Wiley]

Even worse than having the actual photos in hand...they were published and seen all around the world!

As well known as Painter is, I still want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I would like to find sometime down the road that I am wrong in my new opinion of him. However, faked pictures and the stuff I realized myself about that one, point to something being seriously wrong here. Is it possible that his webmaster did this without his input, editing pic's and putting wrong info or info with typos in it up on the site?

[Sam Wiley]

As a side note here, what's the deal with his titles? One minute he's a Doctor, another he's a Captain...anybody know?

[illusionfist]

Besides the obvious weird stuff going on with the head and painter not having a shadow. have you noticed how clear the characters look on the scroll? That also seems to have been cut and pasted on.

Peace :D

[illusionfist]

As far as titles Sam, i remember when Painter just went by Biff Painter, hehe. If you can get some old IKF"s, he had some articles with that name.

Peace :D

[redfist]

painter is trying for mass appeal,

sifu; for the "martial artist" angle,

doctor; the "healer" angle,

captain; the "law enforcement" angle,

i would have never said anything,but when i saw those photos
enough is enough,

there are two phases to the con,
1.the set up,gain there confidence slowly over a period of time.
in painters mind he hedges his bet on two fronts,
a. if everybodys doing it it can`t be wrong,and he`s been doing it for a while.
b. he knows that the chinese commmunity won`t spill the beans
even though he`s a laughing stock among them,why?he`s good for business.
the second phase of a con is,
2.extortion,his defense would be to intimidate any detractors if,
he where even to acknowledge any of these posts.
how do i know this? one look at those pictures shows his comfort level,
why intimadation? he has nothing of substance to back up the claims he`s made,

all of my posts have been made out of compassion for my younger
brothers and sisters in the martial arts who read on this sight,
i have nothing against j.painter,
and i`m not into slinging mud,for the sake of my own entertainment,
try to remain objective and you will not be so easy to get caught in the game,after all,
it`s all a game and you got to know how to play it.

ask painter,he plays it very well.

[Sam Wiley]

Hmmm...Biff "I hate manure!" Painter....:D

[Chris McKinley]

Even giving him the benefit of the doubt (he's been very gracious and generous in my communications with him), I would still hold him accountable for at least an explanation of the photos in question. Even if he didn't Photoshop them himself, or even greenlight the idea, they're on HIS website. The site's been up for a while now, and it's not so large that he couldn't have looked over each page of his own site to make sure he's happy with it.

If Dr. Painter happens to be reading these posts, I would suggest that, uncomfortable as it may be, he would do well to provide an explanation of this. Otherwise, this is the kind of thing that gathers momentum, and could end up stripping even the most legitimate guy of any and all credibility. He's put many years into his practice and teaching of his arts. Legitimacy questions aside, it would be a shame for him to allow something as silly as these pics to bring it all down. It'd be one thing if this were being discussed by generic joe-schmo martial artists, but there are some legitimate players yakking it up on this thread whose word-of-mouth could provide significant help or hindrance to someone's reputation.

Further, if by whatever chance, he had absolutely nothing to do with the creation or doctoring of those pics, providing a public statement might help to not only exonerate him, but perhaps even to show some class and earn some respect from his detractors. Either way, I just don't see how remaining silent on this thing at this point could be productive for him. The pics are just too questionable, and I'm saying this after having just defended the man on this very thread.

[bean curd]

dont' really know much about this guy painter, however having had a look at the photo's there is no doubt they are pure fake.

if and i say if because who knows hahaha, but if the photo of painter and his sifu is bai si, then the gaulungbaguajeung writting at the back would plain and simply be in hand writting.

there is noway it would be the way it is interpretted in the fashion it is shown in the photo. within the writting it would show without doubt the family style, give expression of transmission and also have the family stamp on it.

as to the other two photo's i can't write right now i am still laughing

[Justa Man]

wow, painter really fudged up. he is getting called out left and right. i feel like playing the mother role right now and saying, "Alright, that's enough, now you boys leave him alone."

Poor little Johnny. :(

[kungfu cowboy]

Awww, then I guess that means that he also doctored this (http://izan.simplenet.com/images/inthenavy2.jpg) photo of himself too?:(

[Water Dragon]

IMO,
It's a sad, sad statement that this topic has received so much attention.

[Justa Man]

How about you start a topic that is worth my attention then.

[Water Dragon]

Well, I thought the Psuh Hands thread had a lot of potential. But then, no one else did.

[Justa Man]

i thought it was a good post too. i just didn't have any idea when push hands should be done. i'm not up to that part yet i guess.
my bad for giving off attitude. i was just in a mood. :D

[red_fists]

Justa Man.

I guess you msut have done some "rolling hands " during Ba Gua practice.

Similar thing.

[brassmonkey]

Chris you used to claim Painter as your teacher perhaps you can add some personal insights. Funny the ends people will go to fool other people I once remember this 1 curious fellow that even claimed to be a TCM Doctor who learned solely from books!

[TaoBoxer]

Well....... I thought since we were talking ABOUT the man.....someone should at least try to talk TO him.....

I asked him about the pictures and he said that the photo of his teacher walking the circle was taken in his back yard, and the Bai Se photo was taken on his moms kodak.

Just thought someone should ask.......

[fiercest tiger]

hahaha, i would be calling kodak up and asking for an explaination on the mysterious photogragh of these guys, like they have on those ghost sites with ghost photo's.

unexplained image of a guy with a missing ear! :D next photo he hasnt changed his expression he is the dead calm? hahaha the living dead lol...:eek:

[kungfu cowboy]

(hee-hee):D

[Shin]

Good for asking.

Did you mention why you were asking?

[Chris McKinley]

brassmonkey,

You know, after the last time you tried to lie about me and lost, I'd almost figured you might have changed your tune a bit. The very last exchange I had with you included your apologizing for having your facts wrong and expressing frustration with simply trying to get some questions answered. It also included my offering to help you get your questions answered.

I was under the impression that after that nonsense, there was no ill will between us. Now I see you're back in the trolling business again, both with this thread and the stupid remarks including me about Gary Romel's website. It's funny, the last time I corrected you it was because you weren't paying attention to the posts, now here we are again. Seems like old habits die hard.

Beside the fact that no one here takes anything you have to say about ANYONE seriously, least of all little old me, I'm curious what it is that you think you have a beef with me about but are too timid to communicate. I've already proven that I'm willing to be both candid and helpful toward you, so there should be no reason why you can't just address a question or criticism toward me in an objective manner like a man instead of pretending to be coy or clever with your comments.

As for adding some personal insight, read the friggin post, kid. It's right there on page 2 of this very thread. The same problem of not bothering to read posts seems to be plaguing you over and over again. If you have any further problem with me specifically, do us a favor and simply bring it up in an objective manner. If you've got a legitimate point, I'll consider it. If not, you're starting to appear a bit immature with the current approach.

[brassmonkey]

You know, after the last time you tried to lie about me and lost, I'd almost figured you might have changed your tune a bit."

Best work on your listening skill better my tune didnt change but my realization that my posts having no affect did occur to me but now I just post for my own amusement.

"The very last exchange I had with you included your apologizing for having your facts wrong and expressing frustration with simply trying to get some questions answered. It also included my offering to help you get your questions answered."

See first paragraph I give you the benefit of the doubt wherever I may and I didn't get any questions answered only more questions.

"I was under the impression that after that nonsense, there was no ill will between us. Now I see you're back in the trolling business again, both with this thread and the stupid remarks including me about Gary Romel's website. It's funny, the last time I corrected you it was because you weren't paying attention to the posts, now here we are again. Seems like old habits die hard."

Very true about the habits part, ohhhh was I mistaken when I gave you and Gary the best backpeddaling award for talking smack about nhb fighters how they were low level then when amateur mixed martial artists saw this and the challenges rolled in you guys changed your tune quick though I don't know why when you don't accept challenges anyways. Too bad Gary's away with the War going on to respond, lets hope he doesnt have to do any hand to hand combat.

"Beside the fact that no one here takes anything you have to say about ANYONE seriously, least of all little old me, I'm curious what it is that you think you have a beef with me about but are too timid to communicate."

Taken a poll have we? I don't care what anyone thinks I don't give my opinion on much here nor talk about training almost nill here. The sad part is some people do talk you seriously which is why I post more then anything. I don't particuliarly care for how you misrepresent yourself as a TCM Doctor nor how your teacher's name changes every 6 months nor how you talk smack about other people's systems this says nothing of your skill which I'm not qualified to judge since I'm only a beginner but I have my opinions. There are other things but there more like guilt by association that'll have to stay off the forum.

" I've already proven that I'm willing to be both candid and helpful toward you, so there should be no reason why you can't just address a question or criticism toward me in an objective manner like a man instead of pretending to be coy or clever with your comments."

Coy and clever huh I Like that. I really don't expect any answers from a compulsive liar.

"As for adding some personal insight, read the friggin post, kid. It's right there on page 2 of this very thread. "

Perhaps I'll go back and read that after all you don't posts epics to the length of Sam Wiley's efforts. Don't worry I'll be back in a couple months to pour salt in your wounds.

[brassmonkey]

Here's something funny:

"I've disappointingly found that in this country, those internal arts instructors who spend the most time talking about such things are usually the least able to actually apply their art in a fight"

"Chris McKinley
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 1970
Location: Norman, OK USA
Posts: 267"

We're in complete agreement here.

[TaoBoxer]

I did mention why I was asking Shin...and I asked some other questions as well for my personal interst.....

Basically...he doesn't care abt the rumors, he just teaches and builds his organization.

I am not defending or validating any of this...just trying to be impartial. It's funny but all this reminds me of a quote I once heard, "I don't read the stories they write about me.....I measure them......."

[blacktaoist]

John Painter is a fake". I feel sincerely feel bad for the poor people that go to him to learn BaGuaZhang.

The more I think about this matter, I never saw Painter with any of his so called Li family BaGuaZhang practitioners. All these years and you know he with have put some pictures of the li family practitioners on his web site and even his old articles.

Man Painter is full of $hit".

There is no Li family or BaguaZhang that come from SiChuan province and thats no rumor, Thats just truth and fact".

Painter established himself with lies . Painter is a good marketing strategy man I say this because he is still fooling a lot of people with his Bull$hit. Even now he is still doing it. Many of you guys have seen Painter fake ass photos and still a few people up here try to justify them.

There is nothing to justify. The photos are fake.

There is even a few people up on this web page that are marketing Painter on their own web site. Why? MONEY " THATS WHY".

I know a few renowned internal masters that I ask about Painter skills. They statement to me was Painter is a good marketing and public relations man.

The bottom line is a new jack to the internal martial arts have to keep their eyes open.

Painter is no the only fake out there.



:confused:

[Shin]

Thanks TB

The reason why I'm asking is that once upon a time, Cpt Painter did appear on KFO to defend his good name, so it seems that his apathy towards rumors is selective.

[Chris McKinley]

brassmonkey (or should I say stacey since that's how you're posting in the main forum),

RE: "...ohhhh was I mistaken when I gave you and Gary the best backpeddaling award for talking smack about nhb fighters how they were low level then when amateur mixed martial artists saw this and the challenges rolled in you guys changed your tune quick though I don't know why when you don't accept challenges anyways.". You asked me to correct you when you are wrong, so put simply, yes. Once again, exercising your ability to read would have corrected you, but we've learned that's asking too much. You erroneously stated there that the website was both Gary's and mine. As I've exhaustively mentioned, the site is Gary's alone and the opinions expressed there represent Gary's viewpoint exclusively. Since I've already outlined the several points where my own opinions differ from Gary's, I will not do so here. If you feel that Gary has backpedalled on any of his stances, take it up with him.

Your strategy seems to be one of bringing up the same attack, having it shot down, and then bringing it up again anyway in hopes that readers of a new thread didn't read it. What kind of answer would make you happy? Actually, nevermind...by your own admittance, you're not here to discuss anything fairly or respectfully since, as you say, "now I just post for my own amusement". Apparently much like you do under other names in the other forums. That is THE classic definition of a troll.

You state that, "this says nothing of your skill which I'm not qualified to judge since I'm only a beginner but I have my opinions.". You're right, and I'm therefore not interested in hearing them. I've attempted to be fair and objective with you before, even helpful, but you have apparently spit on that offer and now claim, "Don't worry I'll be back in a couple months to pour salt in your wounds.". Instead of waiting with baited breath for a younger, less knowledgeable, less experienced and less skilled person who is also admittedly here only to start trouble to reveal future opinions, I think I'll just slap a good old "ignore" on you. Any further discussion with an admitted troll would be a waste of time anyway, and again as you say regarding yourself, "I'm not qualified to judge since I'm only a beginner".

Till then, keep training. Come back when you've got more than a single digit number of years of experience. Perhaps by then some of what you are supposed to be learning will have soaked in.


blacktaoist,

I know we share the same goal of keeping the teaching of Baguazhang in this country real regarding its purpose as a combat art. If it turns out that the photos are substantiated as being not only fake, but knowingly so on Dr. Painter's part, then I will probably begin to mirror your opinion of him. Apart from this recent debacle about him, I've already stated that I support his attempts at teaching Bagua for fighting rather than just for show. However, if it turns out that he's intentionally faking the pics in order to make a few bucks, my opinion will change, and I won't mind being a vocal critic in the same way that I've been a vocal supporter.

Until this whole mess is substantiated though, in the interest of fairness and the notion of innocent until proven guilty, I'm not yet willing to throw the man to the wolves, nor to assist in destroying an entire career's work. Should it be shown that Dr. Painter DID intentionally fake the pics, my greatest concern is for his students. I've met a few of them and they are very genuine and sincere in their training. I hope nothing comes of it, and that they are not disillusioned into dropping their desire to learn Baguazhang altogether.

[count]

This is silly to consider at this point since most of us do not study with or will never study with him. For those non participants who are considering study with or workshops with Dr. Painter, and are reading the forums (with 2285 views of this thread and the who's online, I know you are there) just go make up your mind for yourself. I doubt Gompa/Biff/Dr./Captain Painter will make another appearence on this forum, especially to defend himself. If you are interested, I know you can contact him through his website but he is frequently defending himself on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BaGuaZhang There is also a Yahoo 9 Dragon list.

Tnglng, you get the award for most views of a first post in the history of this forum. Congrats;)

[Sum Guye]

It sounds like you aren't sure Biffs pictures are altered...
have you looked at them?

It's soooooo obvious they're fake.

[CD Lee]

I take classes with Dr. Painter, and I am a skeptic of a lot of people as most of you seem to be. I hesitate to post due to the total lack of respect on this board given to teachers that most have not met. Most are willing to form a concrete opinion with less than third hand information. I will make a few points on Dr. Painter:

1. He is very skilled and very powerful. I am no 'picture' expert, but the man is very good at martial arts period. I have been thrown, pushed, and hit by him, and I would rather take on a street gang member. And please beleive me, I am very serious.

2. He is very polite. He does not push a big ego around and is just very comfortable to be around.

3. If someone is a fraud, then they are usually fraudulent to exploit others for financial gain. He does not run McDojo style classes. They cost less than almost every other school around the DFW area. He very persuasivlely suggests to his students to NOT take multiple styles offered at the Gompa due to confusion and panic in a real street situation. If the guy wanted to make money by being a guru, then he should suggest we all take as much as we can, paying good money for all of it of course. However, Shifu Painter does not do that or suggest that to his students. And based on the accusations I have seen on this board, I just don't think he performs his business in a manner consitient with fraudulent behavior.

4. He does not promote HIMSELF in his classes like you would expect a person of his stature to do. He does not brag of his lineage. The main point he makes to us, is that his methods are street effective. He makes mention of his master and the Li family every so often, but he does not play to the lineage at all to us.

5. He de-mystifies the traditional arts. You would think he would play to the CHI bandwagon and keep you in expectation of learning magic chi from a guru. He does just the opposite in class. He has shown us things that looked almost magical in an application, yet he downplays the mystique. He does not want us in awe, he wants us to learn how it works, to defend ourselves.

6. I'll take a Shifu who keeps street effectiveness in mind over any Shifu who has no real experience in the street or in fighting.

7. He stresses internal principles, not external for doing applications and forms. The Chinese we try to emulate did not lift wieghts, but they pushed a plow all day and carried goods for miles and traveled by foot a lot. They were a lot more externally strong than 90% of us limp-wristed weak computer programmers who sit on our happy 8 hours a day.

And finally, being one of these so-accused and pittied followers of Dr. Painter, where are the 5000.00 entry fees to join his elite system of Daoqiquan Internal Arts??? There is none. And the extra 1000.00 to learn the next element in Xingyi? None. Why all the stress on basics, and stepping and San Ti for so long? Where is all the cool punching and false sense of bad-@ssness that I am supposed to get at a fraudulent school? Where are all the promises of how awesome we all will be after we pay to learn the system? I am a sucker, and I want to pay a ton of money for false promises, and beleive I am a great martial artist.

Sorry, there are no quick fixes at Dr. Painers, and no way to buy your skills.

As I respect my teacher, I would prefer you guys take it easy on me for trying to state some FIRST hand facts that I do know about Dr. Painter.


Let the attacks begin.
:D

[kungfu cowboy]

Got photoshop or something? Cut off the heads, blow them up, and analyze them. (Sounds like some weird autopsy). Detailed magnification should show something, if the obvious "gee, those pictures look identical" doesn't.

[blacktaoist]

Chris Mckinley)Until this whole mess is substantiated though, in the interest of fairness and the notion of innocent until proven guilty, I'm not yet willing to throw the man to the wolves, nor to assist in destroying an entire career's work.


BT) Chris the man did it to himself. I always knew them photos were fake. Chris you and I never met. But I can say you and I stand By our belief.

My opinion of john painter was never good any ways. The difference with me and most people is I say whats on my mind. No matter if it comes to crossing hims with a person to make my point. John painter did put some BaGua information out to the general public. my opinion is he lie were he got his BaGua information from. Like I said before there is no BaGuaZhang from SiChuan province or Li Family.

Bottom line Chris There is no need for Painter to give a explanation of any thing, becauses everything he said was a lie, statements not conforming to fact or truth about his own BaGuaZhang lineage.

My Sifu is very good friends with Keng .G. Wu who lives in Beijing China and is a great Renowned BaguaZhang historian, back in 1995 When I went to china with my sifu I ask questions about painter BaGuaZhang system in general.

All I will say is there is no BaGuaZhang from SiChuan or Li family.

I knew that Painter BaguaZhang background was faulty all a long, way before these fake photos of his own body form structure advertising that these photos were his teacher. Man what a joke".

Count) I see nothing silly in talking about fact and truth. I don't see why Painter can't come on kungfuonline, where there is more of a overwhelming mass audience then Yahoo group. If he can defend himself there , then he should be a big boy and defend himself here.

My opinion is he know there are a few internal practitioners on this web page that know their $hit(BaGua Lineages) and not fell for the dump $hit. Any Way you getting paid I guess for marketing his workshop so I can see why you say this matter is silly, not good for your own business.(money)

Good Luck Count in marketing this Grandmaster of Li Family style System of BaGuaZhang. I hope you make alot of money. Because that what BaGuaZhang of today looks like it is all about. Not real skills, talkers getting paid.

Pudlic relation martial artist".

peace.

:o

[count]

That's cold. You know who my teacher is and who his teacher is too. He is the only one I spend more than a couple of minutes to promote. Yes, I have spent a couple of minutes to promote Dr. Painters workshops. I have spent a couple of minutes promoting you and your crew too. I have only said things in this thread that might inspire more informational comments than mud slinging. But I guess I was out of my league here too. Oh well, you may get your wish sooner than you think. And I guess my intentions aren't clear to anyone, so I guess I'll just walk away from this thread for now. See ya!

[blacktaoist]

Now that I thank about Chris Mckinley is right. Maybe I should not pass judgment on the man, intill all the facts are in.


After all many people in my life try to pass judgement on me, And say thing about me that was not true. one reason was because I was black.

I just feel John Painter should explain the photos. Also My Class mate Maoshan was going to set up a workshop for painter some time last year.......... But these photos don't help at all......... So you guys have to see where I'm coming from.......





































































o

[blacktaoist]

Count don't take it the wrong Way, You know me and you are brothers . But even brothers some times Fight. Also me gettting my wish me little to me people know where to find my ass. I'm very easy to find.

[count]

Understood!

Don't mis-understand my comment about "getting your wish" though. I just meant you might get some answers,not a fight:)

[blacktaoist]

Count go check your Hot mail- I e-mail you

[John Painter]

Dear Friends and Enemies

In the spirit of good will I have edited my original post to remove what some of you found objectionable while leaving the pertinent information.

What an interesting and long-winded discussion this is on my validity as an instructor of Baguazhang. What I can do is give you some facts and you can then make up your own mind. We live in a free country and a free society and I am unlike many of you a professional teacher. I make my living, feed my family and pay my debts from the income made from teaching Baguazhang. So when you attack me you attack my business.

I cannot do anything about that. I can only be as honest and fair as possible and let you make your own decisions. You can then choose to ignore me, curse me, join my school or do whatever. You can shop at any store you choose and you can choose any teacher you want. In the long run it will not change the fact that we have nine schools located around the world teaching this art. Schools that for the most part are staffed by martial art instructors who have at least eight to ten year's experience in other internal styles before switching to the Jiulong Baguazhang system.

I had a teacher he told me his name was Li. He taught me to do many wonderful things he called Chinese methods of defense and health. That is the majority and reality of it. Could he have been named Chang, Yang, Jing or some other name and lied to me yes I suppose so. I really do not care if his name was Rumple Stilkin what he showed me when I was a boy for a number of years changed me and healed me and what I have spent a lifetime working on works.

Li, Longdao was a real man any history is what he told me. I am not a historian and in fact until recently I did not care about any of that or think it was important. I had the methods and I worked with them for years and over time they began to become more and more my own personal way while still remaining true to the Baguazhang core principles.

Talking to the students we have had in the past and the present most of them say they do not care anything about the past history they look at the methods, they train the methods and the methods work for them that is all they or I care about.

I am not claiming to have studied Baguazhang in China from any famous teachers, masters or to be doing any of the more prevalent styles. I am doing my style my own methods derived form the teachings of one man. I do not know where he got it for sure. I do not care.

I know that after observing almost all of the various methods of Baguazhang available and meeting with many well-known teachers over the years that all of the components by which Baguazhang is judged are present in our system. The energies, the methods and the training were part and parcel of the Baguazhang I was taught by my one and only instructor.

So I have every right to call what we do Baguazhang. By using the Name Jiulong Baguazhang or Li family Baguazhang I would hope that it is set apart from the others so there is no mistake that it is a “family style” not of the main stream and not attempting to claim any lineage to anyone other than my original teacher.

We never attempt to hide any truth or knowledge of other methods from our students. I always say this is my way there are many others please feel free to check them out if you like and choose what you like best.

To think that students remain with a teacher because of his link (lineage) to the past is ludicrous. People in the modern world go and do things that make them feel good about themselves and where they are continuously being given interesting, challenging and workable information. This is the real litmus test of a method. It is a free world and a free market and one can look at all the Bagua teachers around and make a free choice.

At my school we seek a free exchange of ideas with everyone. Unlike some we do not restrict our students from investigating other methods and systems. We encourage it! If I have the best interest of my students at heart then if they find something better, I want them to go and do that!

On these things about the history I have told what I was told and so I will not waver as I was there I know them to be the truth up to the person they came from and no matter what the opinions of others those facts remain the same. I am truly, deeply sorry if that offends some of you.

Fact:
Jiulong Baguazhang is a real system of health and martial training that has almost 4,000 students world wide with nine branch schools. It has been continuously taught to students for almost 30 years. Whatever it is or whatever you think it is or where it came from in the past does not change the fact that it is now a reality simply because it is here now and functioning.

I am truly, deeply sorry if some things I have published or said offended some of you. I seek friendships not enemies.


Next post has conclusion......

[John Painter]

Answering Your Questions

Bagua Rules Committee
I was asked to chair the committee on writing the rules for judging Baguazhang in international tournaments by the USAKWF and the AAU Kung Fu Association. Now why would they do that if I did not know anything about Baguazhang. I also brought together the first Baguazhang teacher's discussion forum in Houston Texas and later in Winchester Virginia for the express purpose of opening up knowledge of all styles to anyone interested. This was before the Internet was out of diapers. This was attended by a large number of famous teachers and their students and was judged to be most successful.

Mauser Pistols
Yes, the Chinese had .45 cal. ACP broom handle Mauser pistols with interchangeable barrel assemblies that could change the cartridge caliber from 7.63mm to 9mm by removing one pin and sliding on another assembly.

Fighting Knives
Yes the knives in the photos are the ones I choose to use because of their weight balance and size. Yes they can be purchased from a knife catalog. No they are not Chinese knives. They are similar to a design Mr. Li drew for me and I had some customs one's made. I used the ones in the photo, as they are the ones we use in the class we teach. Sorry if this seemed dishonest to some of you.

Yes the photo of me sitting in meditation in the garden is a composite done by the web designer to convey a sense of nature and tranquillity. (really!)

Titles:
Yes I use titles in many of my articles and photos. Marketing is the way things are sold. You can r be a dirt poor Bagua teacher who following old traditional ways and hopes student will find you or you can promote yourself. That is how things are done in the USA.

Biff:
My full name on my birth certificate is John P. (biff) Painter. I went by the nickname for many years until about the third year of college and then dropped it. I did write some articles under that name way back. It is no secret just a name only now used by family and friends.

Ph.D. or Dr. title:
I studied Naturopathy and earned my Ph.D. based on a focus of Chinese medicine most notably Acupuncture. My teacher in Acupuncture was Dr. Sun, Lung-pao who was formerly in Hong Kong about 28 years ago. Like it or not the diploma hangs on my wall and I have a legitimate right to use the prefix of Dr. or suffix of Ph.D. on my name.

Shifu:
I have never asked or expected anyone to call me Shifu or master. I do not think I am a master just someone who has learned a great deal with still more to learn and I am willing to share it with those who have a like interest. My students call me Shifu because I am their teacher that is all. This is a title that may be used by any teacher or one who accepts payment for exchange of knowledge. It does not necessarily denote the term master.




Captain:
The suffix Capt. Appears on most of my work with police and military martial training.
It is used in the ARMLET Company as a designation of skill level much as black-belt is used in Karate. Three are higher levels that this. Everyone is tested in these police skills by an impartial review board.

I am part owner of the company know as American Rangers Martial Law Enforcement Training Institute. I am not a police office or a Texas Ranger, as some people like to state. I have an honorary title of Honorary Texas Ranger bestowed on me by the former governor of Texas. I am also a fully active member of ASLET the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers and Police Consultants Inc. a Dallas based company.

The company ARMLETI trains combat and military trainers for various agencies. We have one of our people in Israel and we recently have begun working with the Ohio Sheriffs office. You do not get these appointments and memberships by being a fraud!

Six Flags,
What is the big deal with that. Yes, I worked there for a number of year performing and training stunt men in the Western Action show and was featured in their Music Mill theatre with my Houdini escape show. So what....

Yes I was in the film Benji and also For the love of Benji. Look fast when you rent it for the guy shooting the cop as he breaks into the jewlery store. Or just read the credits. Again so what...

The Web Site.
I did the best I could to present to the Internet who we are and where we are. The entire web site was put together by a group out of Canada who helped me as a favor. Yes, I have at times been a bit flamboyant with the marketing I admit that but hey, I have not tried to be blatantly dishonest. I have had some really bad advice from some people handling my marketing and the promotion of my art. It has resulted in some of the flack I am taking on this forum now. I am taking some steps to remedy that and trying to follow my heart in the matter.

You are not asking me to be honest you are asking me to confirm what you already believe to be truth. So yes, the photos have been removed from the site. Not because I fear of some reprisal from certain members of this group but simply for the following reasons
1. They were offensive to some of you
2. They were copyrighted images and as such were not legal to copy and distribute.

This of course will not slow down the controversy. If there were no photos at all on the site some of you would do your best to find something else to point a finger at. At this point whatever I say I will be doomed if I do or doomed if I don't and some of you will **** me anyway. Those of you who have a real curiosity about the Jiulong Baguazhang system that I teach will be able to know by coming to visit me in an open spirit of inquiry and friendship. Attend a program or come as my guest to a workshop at The Gompa.

I do not judge others. I have no, religions or racial prejudices and no animosity towards anyone. In fact a few of you on this group know that I have offered to help you with writing articles and getting them published in national magazines.

Some of you also know that we here at The Gompa have openly promoted your schools and events to others. Yet, because of some discrepancy or suspicion in a photo all of that work is thrown into the toilet as if it never happened! I would hope you were not that shallow. Judge me but at least do it from a person to person perspective based on first person knowledge not based on hearsay. Judge me based on my skills and knowledge and my ability to impart it and it's benefit to others not on rumor.

Am I a liar and a fake? Well that is up to you to choose. You have placed me in a position in which I choose to neither confirm nor deny your allegations. After all what is the point if your mind is already made up. It could have been handled differently. I humbly apologize for any affront or insult any of you may have taken. I will continue doing my best to serve others who are interested in my work and the Jiulong system.

"The evil that men do lives after them, The good is oft interred with their bones"
William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar act III

Thank you for listening!

John P. Painter

[Sum Guye]

Painter,

Regardless of the authenticity of your training history, will you admit that you 'doctored' these pictures putting someone elses head on several pictures of your own body (or at very least admit the pictures were altered drastically by someone)???

http://www.jiulongbaguazhang.com/graphics/drpmrli.jpg

http://www.jiulongbaguazhang.com/graphics/lilong.jpg

http://www.jiulongbaguazhang.com/graphics/liwalk.jpg

I mean, come on, that's a laughably bad editing job.

(edited note: this post was being posted before John's second half appeared... interestingly two of the three links have been yanked from the Jiulong site.... I wonder why).

[Shin]

I told you those links would get yanked. Anyone want to post the copies I saved?

:)

No, much as I enjoyed the post by Dr. Painter, he managed to avoid with volume the key questions.

1. Where did you get your degree from.
2. I actually think it's obvious you don't own photoshop, judging by the quality of those pics. Would you be willing to submit them to a photographic analyst? Someone suggested Kodak.

[blacktaoist]

Sam Guye)... interestingly two of the three links have been yanked from the Jiulong site.... I wonder why).

BT) You know why sam. On a Side Note sam, I feel Painter is right in only one of his viewpoints. That the only way to find out if he have skill is to go see him. I myself agree in this way of finding out about a person skill level.

But in a unrehash situation.

But Painter should have explain the photos of his teacher. But now that he take them off his web site answer many questions for me.

Many live life by fooling others , one that knows the tao can't be fool.

Peace

[Brad]

I'm going to say I know little or nothing about Bagua or Chinese history. But I am going to say I disagree very much about John Painter's view of lying. I think it is very wrong to lie about training history regardless of skill. And about this quote:


Personally I think that Master Dong misrepresented the truth because first he did not think it was that important. I think he was more impressed with what a person could do here and now and not what came before. Second my opinion is that he did not want to accept responsibility for creating the art himself (if in fact he did) so as not to be un-humble. So as was the custom (check your history) for that time it is easier to blame it on some mountain dwelling Daoist sage. If you look around you will see that this was the rule and not the exception for many styles of Chinese martial arts.

I would say 99% of people who lie about their training history are not doing it to apear "humble", but to make $$$. Potential custarmers tend to believe "older is better" in regard to martial arts styles. Even if it was the rule back in old China, it shouldn't be today. Making $hit up to bring in customers is illiegal here in the US isn't it? Just difficult to prove in MA.

[CD Lee]

You guys must admit this one thing:

Shifu Painter makes money because his techniques work, he is very good at teaching the system, and he has proven this to credible sources in the MA world.

If his system did not work, no lineage or photos would make any difference. Like I said, he does not run his school in a McDojo fashion, but nobody cares about that here.

Frankly, most of you guys have ZERO MA credibility, and yet Dr. Painter has highest recommendations from people like Shifu Mike Patterson. So what gives? Am I really going to belive some first year student over Shifu Patterson? Duhhh...I think not.

What about Dr. Painters other teachers? They are very educated in case anyone decided to view every one of them on his web-site. There is a lot of experience there with good people. If you were Shifu Mike Patterson, would you recommend Dr. Painter as outstanding? Then what does he know that you don't know? Go find that out.

[Water Dragon]

I have a comment for you. It may sound severe, but it instead is simply blunt. That is my way. I try to lay things out in the simplest terms possible. Please read my opinion, consider it, and regard or disregard it as you choose.

The truth is, CMA are the laughing stock of the Martial Arts world. Some of the most ridiculous ideas are past on as gospel. And people buy it faster than it can be sold.

The reason that this unfortunate reason persists is the culture of CMA. We have an environment where snakeoil can be sold without a license. Charlatans abound and there is no Truth in the public eye that can denounce it. Hence, it prospers.

By buying into this environment, sir. I feel that you are in a sense, promoting it. In my eye, you have a responsibility to pass on the arts in their purist form so that those who would seek, may find.

Right now, all of the talent is running from us and heading to the combat sports. These are people who should be the next generation of leaders for us. They are the ones who will learn Nian and develop. You are in a situation to help make that happen. Why would you waste that opportunity.

It is not important what you may have said or exagerated in the past. There are those who claim you've had good training. If so, let the flame shine. Stand on your skill and promote that.

A humble Student

[Nexus]

Painter doesn't have a responsibility to anyone except himself, his family and paying students. If people feel he owes something to the martial arts world, they are focussing to much on him and not enough on themselves. Even if he is a charlatan, a fake, a liar and all of these things he is accused of being, it still doesn't change the fact that he has students who go to his classes actively and he himself trains and practices the martial art.

Some rants and flames on a message board only show how easily peoples feelings get bullied by words and show a lack of centeredness. If Painter lacks being centered by not having the humility to admit his faults and not having the humbleness to know when to keep his mouth shut, that doesn't mean anyone else needs to fall into the same category.

A concept in t'ai chi is to go with the flow, not to hate those whom are different then you. You see in the Bible Jesus saying "Love thy enemy". Does hating those who have different views, different morals make the situation any better? Do you realize your dislike for Painter does more harm to yourself then it will ever do to him? Shall we hate those whom voice different views, words, and are opposite from us and our own perspectives?

When you step into the ring with an enemy, it is his place in the world to be stepping in the ring with you. Just like telling Painter he should be more like yourself in his thinking, you are trying to tell someone who is different how to live.

- Nexus

[MonkeySlap Too]

At Jeff Bolt's 1992 tournement I went as my teachers representative. As a result I ended up in the 'masters / instructors' meeting debating the introduction of modern wushu into traditional schools as a method of unifying CMA. I was, of course oppossed to this, and thanks to my superior mouth fu I was chosen by David Lin, Wai Lun Choi and others to speak for them in the debate against the snake oil salesmen. I was by far the most junior person in the room - but hey, with guys like that backing you up, you can be pretty bold.

Dr. Painter was in the room. Afterwords he found me in the hallway to discuss his take on it. He struck me as a man who knew enough to now better. And frankly his demo later on looked like he certainly had some skill. Something others with more robust lineages did not seem to.

Are those photos fake? Could be. I work in advertising, and they sure looked questionable to me. Is John Painter a fake? Let me give you my answer in the form of a joke:

"How many CMA types does it take to change a lightbulb?"

"10. 1 to change the lightbulb, and 9 others to say they could have done it better."

[Water Dragon]

You are correct Nexus. That is also why I qualified my post as being my opinion only. I feel we all have a responsibility to the arts. A personage such Dr. Painter is simply in a position to reach a wider area, contribute more than most. If that opinion is not shared, that is fine. I only ask that it be heard.

[Sum Guye]

I would have respect for John Painter if he was some guy who had fighting skills and taught them. What gets me is the fact that he studied a little bagua and then invented a rediculous history for it and claims he's teaching a type of bagua that never existed.

He may be able to kick my ass (looks like he out weighs me by 150lbs) but the nine palace bagua story is bullsh*t just like those stupid pictures
of his teacher are bullsh*t.

If he didn't put such a big target out there, with such an obvious bullseye on it- people wouldn't even blink. But when you don silk PJs and say 'this is Bagua' and then put on army fatiges, a barret and black sun-glasses and say 'this is warrior bagua' you make Internal Martial Arts look like a joke. A bad joke.

(only someone who is guilty of lying would begin a response with "well, other people lied..")
Child Psychology 101.

[CD Lee]

I would have respect for John Painter if he was some guy who had fighting skills and taught them.

All else aside, this is the one reason everybody loves the guy. His system works and he can demonstrate it in person. Where do you get this information that he cannot fight. Has any testimony here said that? No, everyone with first hand experience has said just the opposite. I don't understand your reasoning. I think you have a weak mind and a strong mouth.

Could you back your ridiculous statement up with something substanative like actual testimony of a credible person as regards your accusation that he has no fighting skills or teaches them?

Just curious how deep your intellect will take you on this matter.

[Sum Guye]

you question my intellect after misunderstanding my post...

1. where did I say John Painter can't fight?
(didn't I say he could probably kick my ass?)
If his system works and he can use it, great,
but the fact that he invented a false history
and posted phoney photographs is what I've got
issue with.

2. it's the "all else aside" I'm talking about.
the fact the guy claims a lineage that never
existed. The nine palace bagua is
utter nonsense. (I didn't start this thread.
I've never said Painter can't 'fight' but I
do say WHAT HE TEACHES IS NOT WHAT HE CLAIMS
IT IS. THE HISTORY HE CREATED IS BULLSH*T.
Regarless of whether or not he can fight or
walk in a circle.)

3. "..back your ridiculous statement up with something substanative like actual testimony of a credible person as regards your accusation that he has no fighting skills.." -- it wasn't my statement, so no, I don't need to back that one up. (if I'm wrong, show me where I said he has no fighting skills- please)

4."Just curious how deep your intellect will take you on this matter"... judging by how poorly you understood my post; way deeper than you'll ever comprehend.

If Painter helps folks stay healthy and defend themselves- more power to him. If he does it while claiming some stupid, made-for-TV history then I think that sucks and I don't mind saying it.

[maoshan]

Alright, to start,
From the beginning I gave painter the benefit of the doubt because of the fact that he has been doing the work. Teaching, promoting etc. so for me, to a certain degree, the question of lineage was secondary. But those photos hit hard.
But to justify it by using Dong as an example? I can’t have it.

[Personally I think that Master Dong misrepresented the truth because first he did not think it was that important. I think he was more impressed with what a person could do here and now and not what came before. Second my opinion is that he did not want to accept responsibility for creating the art himself (if in fact he did) so as not to be un-humble. So as was the custom (check your history) for that time it is easier to blame it on some mountain dwelling Daoist sage. If you look around you will see that this was the rule and not the exception for many styles of Chinese martial arts.}

First, I agree with Brad.
But more importantly, the practice of using a monk or priest as the creator of a system was to give it more credibility, for in the minds of the people at that time “old is good”. Twisting the facts to justify your acts is not it.

Now as to Dong and the origin of Ba-Gua, the point you made:
[if you scratch up five historians you would get five different stories about the martial arts.]
In the case of Kang Ge Wu this does not hold. Most of the stories that we have of the origin of ba-Gua come from verbal tradition witch of course became blown up over time. And most of the historians got their stories from these verbal traditions. While I did read the article in Journal I also got it from the horses mouth. I met Kang Ge Wu through my Sifu (Chen Xiao Ping) who is good friends with him. In fact the last time I corresponded with him was last year. Not only is he a Martial Arts historian, His Martial art of choice is Ba-Gua. His teacher was Sha Ga zheng a Top student of Chiang yung Qiao who was a senior of Chang chao Tung who learned from Cheng ting Hua and Dong Hai Chuan. That is why he chose to do his masters thesis on the origin of the system. What Kang did no one has done.
It involved the examination of over 650 documents from the Ching palace history books and over 230 reports written on martial arts. He examined 413 teachers in 24 Provinces and cities, Personally investigating 16 cities and counties and 9 Provinces. He interviewed over 256 people resulting in over 274 documents. Many 0f the people he interviewed were the old boxers from the last generation who spoke freely about their martial arts. It was also at this time while conducting his research that he became a motivation force in the effort to restore Dong Hai Chuan’s tomb and participated with the unearthing and moving of the tomb. All that work was not casual. It was intense. Dong Hai chuan is most definitely the creator of the system. I know the results of his research because I love history myself so I excel in it.

Again your skill is not the question. The lineage is in particular since those pictures went up. And they don’t look right. Skill has nothing to do with the things we do. In the past high-level martial artist were Heroes as well as Villains. To assume that just because someone has some skill that they are a good person. Like you said, all of us are guilty of going off the path at some point in our life. But the rebuttel was far to political thus rendering it evasive.

Keep it real.
Maoshan

[tnglng]

Anybody that has been around martial arts long enough will run into all kinds of people. When you have nothing to compare against, it is easy to be fooled. Martial arts always has a lot of con men who know how to turn a fast buck. Cheaters and the cheated. When I first posted this, I was reacting to an IKF article that appeared overly theatrical and self-serving. I wanted some other opinions, and I sure got them!

I didn't like Mr. Painter's replies, implying this "aw c'mon guys, we all stretch the truth...." and all the rest of removing the questionable pictures, etc. The argument about walking the circle before most of us were born is also not very strong. I've seen people doing tai ji for decades, frankly they are not very good. The man may have some skill, but I would never spend my hard earned money to learn from him. I used to spend time at the Tai Ji Farm and I saw Painter there a few times, but I won't say anything about that. Maybe these discussions will make him think about his methods and change a little. I don't know and don't care.

[CD Lee]

Pardon my intense language. Let me try this again. Look back at my post and look at my quote. So there was no missunderstanding, and converging of topics, I only quoted your very first sentence of your previous post. I will post it again, as you asked me to show you where you said he couldn't fight: Once again...



I would have respect for John Painter if he was some guy who had fighting
skills and taught them.

---Very first sentence of your post. You are supposed to make your point, then back it up right?

That is all I meant about your intellect on the matter. You stated in your first sentence that he had no fighting skills, and did not teach any.

I take it your statement was flippant, as the rest of the content of your post contradicted your first statement.

And my counterpoint was that if you had not met the man, then based on credible first hand witness accounts that abound about Shifu Painter, you could determine that the one thing he can do is fight well and teaches the system well.

Have I misunderstood you?

[Justa Man]

Does your lineage matter if you have skill?
I get mixed responses to this based on everyone's posts. Some say it doesn't matter who you learned from if you have skill, but then diss someone who can't legitimately trace his lineage to Dung, Hai Chuan. Some say it does matter and I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm just wondering. I for one don't think it matters if you can't trace your lineage back to him if you teach a ba gua program that imparts fighting skill and good health to those who practice.
Maoshan said something interesting about how back then, "Old is better" and that may have been why Dung, Hai Chuan avoided the questions of where he learned his Ba Gua from. That sounds like a good point, but if that is in any way or measure true, then isn't Painter doing the same thing with the doctored photos? He's showing photos of him with his teacher, linking him to the "old".

[Sum Guye]

CD Lee,

Yes, you did misunderstand... I'll restate myself more clearly now:

I have oodles of respect for anyone who simply opens a school and teaches fighting skills.... I do not respect someone who invents a fake background and lineage period.
(you quoted my first sentence but ignored the rest of my post)

If Painter created his own martial art and named it "Painter's art"
and taught whatever he teaches, that would be admirable.
Instead, Painter created a false history, invented an anceint secret Chinese martial art and that, I find dishonorable.

For my part in this thread, I haven't questioned whether or not he can fight (again, if you can show me where I did- I'll apologize
and will visit Painter at the Hall of Champions in LA, and will have my girlfriend give biff the best blowjob he's ever had, to make up for it) all I've said is that he made up his history... falsified pictures to make himself look legit which he is not.

Nothing to do with whether or not he can fight, hit hard or shoot chi and explode chickens at 50 paces. I haven't sparred the guy, I don't know or care if he can 'fight'.... I just think it's FUNNY that he's bullsh*tting so many people about his history... and even FUNNIER that those pictures where so badly doctored.

My only take on the whole painter thing is that HE'S LYING ABOUT HIS LINEAGE AND POSTED LAUGHABLY BAD, DOCTORED PHOTOS OF SOME GUYS HEAD PASTED ONTO PHOTOS OF PAINTERS OWN BODY.

Do you understand yet?

(Justaman, my take, no lineage does NOT matter- but if you LIE about a lineage and invent some BS, that DOES matter- it makes you look stupid. If I studied TaiJi from a little old white lady in Kalamazoo, but learned well and became the greatest taiji fighter around.... that lack of lineage would be cool..... but, if I opened a school and invented a huge false background saying I'd been taught by warrior monks who didn't want to teach their own children and taught me because only I could save the art.. that would be UNCOOL.... just my opinion. whether I could fight or not- inventing a BS history is BULLSH*T RIPOFF CRAP.)

[CD Lee]

This is getting funny.



For my part in this thread, I haven't questioned whether or not he can fight (again, if you
can show me where I did- I'll apologize

Ok, here is your FIRST SENTENCE of your post...



I would have respect for John Painter if he was some guy who
had fighting skills and taught them.

You did make this statement. You also made other statements about his photos. I called you on your first statement that he had no fighting skills.

Changing the subject is not working. You said he had no fighting skills, and you wanted me to show you. I don't think you meant it, I just think you were slinging insults because your ****ed at his photos an his response. I just called you down on your statement about his fighting skills.

Was I correct in quoting you? Did you make that statement?

I will drop your statement for now, as you already have retracted in some measure anyway. I just want an admission, not even an apology.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Interesting the number of opinions and rational behind them.
I think many could make the same case about a certain TC teacher.


What are the criteria for one to be an IMA teacher of a particular style?

I seem to be confused by all this.

Sometimes it seems that linage and style is/or is not it
Other times it seems to be measured by fighting ability
And still at other times it seems to be measured in what are called internal skills.

depending on ones views it seems that any one of these can cancle out the others and invaldate the claim of teaching something that is called IMA.

So what do most view as the criteria for one to be able to say that they teach or are leaning what is called IMA?

[Shin]

CD you are fixating and it reveals a certain level of insecurity. Even a child can read the post and realize that the implication is not that Painter can't fight. The implication is if Painter made no claims about his abilities/style other than fighting, rather than attempting to give himself airs, the author would have no issues.

[Internal Boxer]

Hmmm

After reading all these posts I have come to realise that the skills of Mr Painter are not in question (I have never heard of the guy prior to this post), but given the exposure he has in the states it is likely that he has ability or else lack of skills would have shown up sooner or later.

However on the question of lineage, he may be telling the truth, and felt compelled to fabricate the pictures, that is by no means an excuse for what he has done, but I would have respect for the man if he admitted that the photos were changed.

Putting that aside I wish people would just get on and do their own training rather than be bothered about what the next guy is doing. But then I do undertand others concerns regarding false information being spread, so it would be nice if Mr painter apologised for the photos then everyone could get on with training!!

There comes a time in life when you realise that in the greater scheme of the universe nothing really matters. Do you think the internal arts will survive forever? I do not think so as the human race seems hell bent on destroying itself all that matters is the Tao.

Blo.ody He.ll this meditation is making me go MAD:D :D :D

[Sum Guye]

"I would have respect for John Painter if he was some guy who had fighting skills and taught them. What gets me is the fact that he studied a little bagua and then invented a rediculous history for it and claims he's teaching a type of bagua that never existed."

I don't want to bore everyone by explaining this to you, but since you seem stuck on this misunderstanding I'll try once more:
The second sentence has direct bearing on how the first sentence was intended.

I do see how by reading ONLY that first sentence someone might misunderstand what I was explaining in the entire paragraph.

(first paragraph explained: if Painter said 'look world, I know how to fight- here learn this' - I'd admire that. INSTEAD what painter did/does is 'look world, i know how to fight because of this INVENTED FAKE BACKGROUND.. look at these altered pictures of my teacher and me... I learned how to fight using a secret ancient art taught only to me')

NOWHERE IN ANY OF MY POSTS HAVE I QUESTIONED WHETHER OR NOT HE CAN FIGHT (i even went so far as to say he can probably kick my ass) I was saying A- I would have respect for him is he was honest about his skills B- I do not have respect for his because he is dishonest about how he came about his skills.

again:
I would have respect for him is he was just some guy who knows how to fight and teaches people---- I do not have respect for ANYONE who invents an entire history for themselves and profits from it. That's all I was saying. I can see how someone only reading the line you quoted could misunderstand my point... my point NOW is the quote was taken out of context. Read with the entire paragraph it should be clear that WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH IS THE FACT THAT HIS HISTORY IS BULLSH*T HYPE FAKE CRAP AND THOSE PICTURES (WHICH HE HAD REMOVED FROM THE SITE STRENGTHEN MY POINT).

no appology... no admission from me.
(and no super blow job for Painter either since again, you've failed to prove what you're so freaked out over).

[CD Lee]

Shin:

Ok, ok, I am fixating. I admit that. However, I am not insecure, but I am educated, and like a well stated post that makes a point, then backs up the statement. I give. Unlce, uncle. :)

However, how many of you have had the chance to see your Shifu trashed in a huge thread? There is some emotion involved. I respect my teacher and his system and I will naturally defend him if I see a statement that I don't think shows the true picture, no pun intended.

At least I, as a Painter student, have not been asked to pay good money, above and beyond the norm for other schools in our area, for some fancy lineage. That is my experience firsthand. That is the reality of what I have experienced.

We have all seen here the scary stories of some self appointed so-called Masters, that charge huge amounts of money to join, to advance, and to stay in the schools. That is true fraudulence. One should be able to pay a fair market price, and receive an excellent product in return (value) for thier hard earned money.

[CD Lee]

Sum Guye

I read your post as you explained it fine the first time. I don't need an apology, as you inferred you would give one if you really made the statement with intent. Fair enough.

Just wanted a clarification from you, and you provided that.

Besides, I don't want to fixate too much.

(Hey, we really got off to a great relationship Sum Guye eh??? :D :D)

[Sum Guye]

Thank you. I have much respect for you.
I'm glad we cleared that up.

[John Painter]

Dear Water Dragon & Internal Boxer

Thank your for your direct comments. I will try to do just that in the future.

I will also direct you and other reading this to revisit my earlier post as I have edited it to hopefully remove any offending comments and yet still state my case and answer your questions.
I am sure even this will generate some controversy.

As far as the internal arts being a laughing stock when it comes to martial artists. That is a shame because there are some very well trained and skillful fighters out there. My kung fu pal Johnny Kwong Ming Lee, master Wai-Lun Choi, Kumar Frantzis, Jason Tso and some others including from what I hear from my friend Master B.P. Chan and others one of your senior members here on this club, Mr. Bell who is also gaining a reputation as a great Baguazhang exponent and fighter.

It is a shame that these people are not afforded and opportunity to do more to present their methods of Baguazhang to the public eye through the magazines and in other venues. I have offered to help some of them break into the magazines and get more notice for the good of the entire art of Baguazhang and still stand ready to do so.

Some have said that for me it is all about money. Well, yes anyone wants to make a living and support their family. However, I have never failed to promote any Baguazhang teacher's workshops or efforts and still do regularly by sending out announcements on programs by other teachers to our newsletter and mailing lists.

Those of us who teach combative methods must be willing to help show that we are not just about new age dancing. In Los Angeles our instructor there teaches Jiulong Baguazhang in a hard core combat gym with kick boxers and full contact fighters. "The house of Champions"

Most of them turned their noses up or laughed up their sleeves at the idea of having Baguazhang or any internal methods in the same room with them. After Mr. Adams our teacher there started his classes and they saw the methods some of them changed their minds and now some of their teachers are taking classes in Baguazhang. I hope other Baguazhang teachers will repeat this in the future with their arts in their hometowns.

On The Controversy over my web site
If it pleases you to hate me dislike or discredit because of photos or printed words and that makes me an evil person that this is your choice. I have about the history of what I teach told the truth as far as I know it. That will stand. I got some bad advice and if photos I published offended some of you again I apologize. They have been removed.

I think Internal Boxers post on 02-01-2002 has a great deal of validity and should ring true with some of you. Although I know some of you in your heart will not be happy until I bow to your wishes and admit it is all a fake and that it is all made up by me.

I even thought about doing just that even though it is not true just to make peace. However, I have to honor my own heart and what I know to be true and honest and abolish the things which are not and then take my chances. This is what I have done.

I will say that in the future I will place less emphasis on our history and more on the art itself if that appeases some. We do not have any students to my knowledge that came to me or purchased my videos or books because of my lineage or reputed lack of one. They saw the method they liked it and so they joined. It was and is as simple as that.

As a teacher I really do not seem to attract people who are more interested in history than present results gained. Not that you cannot have both it just does not seem to matter to the majority.

I sincerely hope this gesture will appease the hearts burning with too much fire Qi for my demise out there. So you can count this as my official apology to anyone who is or was offended by bad judgment in allowing the placing any offending materials on my website.

Please do train and practice more, perfect your arts, share them with others and do not concern yourself so much with sowing the seeds of discord or what is going on in your neighbor's house.

I hope we can meet in the spirit of friendship as Baguazhang cousins at some time in the future.

John Painter

[Water Dragon]

Thank you for the reply Mr. Painter. Like I said, I'm not asking you to act on my opinion, only hear it. You did, and for that I am grateful.

I'm not a Bagua man, and know relatively little of the art. But I know I would enjoy having an advanced pratitioner on the boards. Perhaps you will consider it?

Have you ever considered attempting to popularize the arts through a tournament setting? Perhaps with your friend Mr. Patterson. IMO, that would be the best thing that could be done for our arts. And look what it did for the Gracies, excellant way to make a good living by keeping the art pure. I'm working on it myself, but on a more limited basis of course.

If not, maybe a book set focusing on the true skills of Bagua. You know, the simple boring stuff that no one wants to practice. Now that is a book I would like to see written.

[redfist]

he took the pictures down because they are frauds.
he got caught.

[blacktaoist]

I have talk to a few Renowned internal masters in New York about John Painter skill level today. I would post these teachers names that I talk to, but I know I get Hell for it if I did.

Ok. !#Most of them told me Mr. painter have very good Bagua skill. 2# he have a very deep understanding of Theory and can utilize it unrehash.

Ok. Fine. I myself never Question Mr. Painter fighting skills. Because when I first got in to BaGuaZhang the only people I knew that was writing about BaGua as a fighting art was Robert W. Smith, Jerry Alan Johnson, and Mr. John Painter. Back in the 80"s these guys were the only people to my knowledge writing about BaGuaZhang as a Fighting Art.

Back then these guys were all I had as far as information about BaGuaZhang. As More BaGuaZhang practitioners come out of the wood work. I was able to get my Hands on more new information. Some good some bad". But thats what life is all about Yin And Yang. My sifu Chen Xiao ping , told me something today:

There are three kinds of people:
1# people that want to be World renowned.
2# people that want to be just known.
3# people that just want to be unknown.

But no matter what kind of person you are in this life time, you are always going to have people that are going to love you or hate you.

A person must always stay discipline and balance in everything in life.
I learn today That I didn't keep my discipline and balance. Things you can learn about yourself, from just having a talk with your sifu.

I Sincerely apologe to Mr. john painter for calling him a fake. I had no right to pass judgment on him. If the photos of his Bagua Teacher are real or fake, or if his Bagua come from Sichuan province, it should not matter to me. I gain no benefits from these photos or information about his lineage or talking bad about the man.

This is not true Taoist virtues, My sifu help me see that today.

I think we all should just move on from this matter, its time to walk the circle and make a change".




:)

[MonkeySlap Too]

With a post like that you proved thast you are one helluva decent man.

Kind of rare in our ego driven Wu Lin.

[CD Lee]

Hey Daniel, good to hear from you.



I've never heard of any traditional master charging thousands of dollars. I live in San Francisco, and there are quite a few wandering around here. I was wondering if you could PM me with some specific examples?



Great question. You know the answer already. :) There are no traditional masters that are real masters, that would do that to students or the public. Not that I know of anyway.

I was actually making an indirect reference to a so-called master who was the focus of a very large thread on the main forum a few months ago. I wish I could remember his name. But people had listed his court documents, which basically showed him to be a big fraud. The problem was, this guy was almost worshiped by his followers, and many paid huge amounts of money to join and learn. Then if they were good, they were asked to pay more to join the advanced group. The guru would charge huge sums to have specialized seminars for his followers to learn 'special' topics. This guy had a shady lineage, and he made the public
PAY dearly for the proviledge of learning from him. This is fraud in my mind. To lie is one thing, we have all lied. But to cause actual financial harm by selling something that is fake is another story.

I was simply saying that as a Painter student, we pay less than the average in our area, and the teaching is rooted in basics. Lineage is not talked about much, and Dr. Painter is totally approachable, down to earth, no bull-s****, and very polite. If he was sincerly trying to defraud the public and students, he would go for the money, and play up the lineage. He does not work that way.

Can I say something on this matter that may shock people? I called on the phone and was not even told that he was the Shifu. I was told about the Kung Fu on the phone, and invited to watch. I joined, and have had a wonderful time learning basics and building a great foundation. Frankly, what a nice surprise to find I lived close to a man of his stature. So hey, I'm learning the internal arts. Cool.

Anyhow Daniel, in all seriousness, I don't know of any legit 'Master' that steals from the public.

[redfist]

very well spoken,
this will be my last post on this thread,
a point of balance has been reached,
i felt that it needed to be brought out into the light and looked at,
maybe some conclusion drawn as you have so eloquently expressed,
i harbor no animosity toward mr.painter,and i wish him and all
martial arts practitioners to find what they are looking for in the arts,to find happiness and to be free from suffering
we are drawn spiritualy to the system most suited to us.
health and self defense are the basis for the enhancement of our
spirit,
i`m quite certain that mr.painter has helped many people through his teaching and i wish him the ability to do so for many years to come,

though we practice for many years when we make mistakes my sifu will without hesitation correct us,
we must all be able to eat the bitter to improve.
mr.painters removal of those pictures from his websight is a sign
that he is receptive to criticism and for that i commend him.

thank you for your insights,like the proverbial lotus rising from the mud.

[Guandi]

>I Sincerely apologe to Mr. john painter for calling him a fake.
>I had no right to pass judgment on him.

I am impressed, blacktaoist. Especially because I had not expected such an act from you.

take care
Guandi

[fiercest tiger]

Come on man, you know deep down he isnt as good as you thought he was!

maybe you should go and test him out? are you aloud too?

[baguatc]

I think the part I enjoyed most about this thread was Painter's statement about stretching the truth but not wanting to be "blatantly" dishonest. Taking the moral high ground in justifying his lies.

I'm with Redfist on this one. He posted fraudulent pictures. He got caught and now the pictures are gone from the website. His actions speak much louder than his words on this thread, which danced around the issue.

As for Painter's skills or the skills of his students . . . we'll just have to see. I travel a little.

[baguatc]

Painter . . .

(1) Never directly addresses nor accepts responsibility for the doctored pictures. Instead, he blames other people ("The entire website was put together by a group out of Canada who helped me as a favor."). Hey Doc, who supplied them with the falsified photographs and other content?

(2) Apparently lying is OK with him as long as it isn't "blatant" (Yes, I have at times been a bit flamboyant with the marketing I admit that but hey, I have not tried to be blatantly dishonest.").
Now that REALLY reminds me of Clinton.

(3) Gets all pseudo-sincere ( . . . trying to follow my heart in the matter).

It stinks. No one would have put that falsified content on the website without Painter either supplying it or approving it.

On to the reactions: yes it's the skills and the teaching that matter most to the student . . . but that's not what this thread was about. It was about false claims.

BT, I've always liked the line you take about "keepin' it real" and respecting your sifus. Your sifus ain't done nothing like what Painter did to promote their art. I'm guessing (and correct me if I'm wrong) that they just don't like seeing Chinese martial arts vilified and baguazhang in particular smeared by rhetoric and bull****, and as traditional sifus just said to cool it. Now they say Painter's skills are good: have they played or sparred with Painter or his students? Just curious.

'nuf said.

[taijiquan_student]

not 'nuf said (even though this thread has gone on way too long).

The photos are suspect, yes. BUT--EVERYONE on this board who has had DIRECT experience with Painter has said he has some real skill, including the very high-level guys BT talked to. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, and saying he's a good guy with some good gong-fu. It's obvious the guy is good from ALL accounts, but whether or not you put him down becuase of the photos (which are now gone) or because his name is Biff is your choice, not mine.

This is my last post on the thread.

This is over.

[blacktaoist]

Baguate) BT, I've always liked the line you take about "keepin' it real" and respecting your sifus. Your sifus ain't done nothing like what Painter did to promote their art. I'm guessing (and correct me if I'm wrong) that they just don't like seeing Chinese martial arts vilified and baguazhang in particular smeared by rhetoric and bull****, and as traditional sifus just said to cool it.


Bt) Baguate you don't have to guess my friend. Not one of my sifus would ever utilize false information. Many of them are very traditional in their methods of teaching.

I agree with you and others own this web page viewpoint. I don't vindicate a person lying. I know my father never justify it. And boy did i get a asskicking if I lie to him or told him a fasle story.

I learn the hard way not to lie when I was a small kid.


Baguate). Now they say Painter's skills are good: have they played or sparred with Painter or his students? Just curious.

BT)The teachers I ask about John Painter Skill, know Mr. Painter and told me he possess knowledge and skill. I don't know if these teachers crosshands with Mr. Painter or his students.
Because I didn't ask them that kind of Question.

The bottom like is I don't approve of of fasifiend photos if it was of Mr painter doing. But we can't just look at the bad side of what we think Mr Painter did.

We also have to look at the good side of what the man did for the Art of BaguaZhang.

Mr. Painter have put out a lot of good practical BaGua information out, back when I was a teen in the 80's. Among Painter there first was Robert W. Smith. But Mr. Painter was also working hard promoting and teaching BaguaZhang. If Not for painter many with not know that BaGua was a fighting martial arts. Many Would have went to learn other fighting arts.

Now I'm not taking up for Mr. Painter he's a big boy and he can defend himself or his students can do that for him.

I'm just keeping it real, the man did do alot for the promotion of BaGuazhang in the public of America. Afican American Martial artists That practice Karate in my hood knew who Painter was and had some knowledge of what bagua was about, way be for I met them.

So that show me he is very renowned in the African American world of martial arts, thanks to inside kung fu and many other martial arts magazines. So I have to give him his respect, because of the good things he have done for the art of BaGuaZhang.

As I said befor we should just move on from this matter, And just do our own practice and be an example to the internal world of martial arts.
Peace.

Therefore the sage avoids extremes, excesses, and complacency.

[baguatc]

"Therefore the sage avoids extremes, excesses, and complacency"

But I LOVE extremes and excesses, **** it!

[-=moth=-]

**

[Justa Man]

Your Sifu's must be very sad to see their students behaving like this....

talk about 'bad mouthing' each other.

[-=moth=-]

*shakes head*

[Justa Man]

moth, why did you take out your last messege? i was just gonna post how you 'shaking your head' just proves the "ego" part in your post too. :(

[diego]

I hope to find s real sunlutang master
lets say i meet this dude in the park teaching a class
i join the class and on the front mantle is pictures of the dudes grandpa and sunlutang
Now in each picture the dudes facial expression is the same.
Eventually i become the main teacher of the dudes school when he passes away


Then i meet sunlutangs relatives and they kick my ass and i find out the dude learnt the sunlu from a book and mixed it with his kenpo fighting techniques.
Now i looked at this guy like a father and really love sun lu tang style, but i wasted 20 years on halfass practise, and get beaten by someone 20 years my age who only trained for 7 years.

this is fiction, but i plan to learn bagua eventually as i really like what i have seen, and in my hopgar we have some pakua footwork in our drills.
So the above story is some sad ass ****.
Yah so thats my take on this.

[PHILBERT]

Holy ****! This guy lives in the same town as me! I called that number and it said he has been training 29 years and gave me a bunch of options. ****, too bad the school isnt listed in my phone book or I'd go visit him.

[CD Lee]

Philbert;

It is in the phone book. THat is how I found it. I had never heard of John Painter. I just wanted to look at some Kung Fu. His ad in the Yellow Pages was just one line.

Authentic Internal Kung Fu....then the number. I was attracted to the lack of fanfare, talked on the phone a while, and felt comfortable. Been there since, and I have learned some really good things.

[PHILBERT]

What I meant to say CD Lee was that there was no address in the phone book and I didn't want to call to get an address `cause then he'd be expecting me. I perfer to just appear at the school randomly.

[CD Lee]

Well,

He does not have his address in the phone book as you obviously noticed. You call and speak to them, and they send you directions to his personal home. That is where Dr. Painter and his instructors teach. At the Gompa behind his home.

It seemed odd to me at first, but they are totally accomodating if you are serious. I love what I have found there.