CMA and knife fighting

[SevenStar]

Does your school address knife fighting? If so, what is your approach to it?

[shaolinboxer]

Yes, but our knives are 3 feet long ;).

[Shooter]

Basically, my approach to weapons training is to be creative and have fun. My school doesn't offer any special training outside of what we do everyday, but since we also have a fencing club as well as Tai Chi, we explore all sorts of differrent scenarios and egded weapon formats. When I "fence" with some guys, there's chairs (and other objects) flying, there's kicking, punching, wrestling...basically anything to "survive"

As far as knives specifically, different scenarios have to contain the appropriate emotional component, and in training with knives, it must be understood that there are "catagories" that define the scenario.

A total compliance scenario is where the attacker wants their victim's money, car, whatever...or they may want to abduct or rape them. In each case, they'll show the knife in order to garner the victim's compliance. That's where the emotional component comes into play. How they grip the knife says a lot about their ability/will/intent and emotional state. eg. A proper saber grip says to me that the guy knows what he's doing with a blade. In each case, the decision to comply or not has to be appropriate for the scenario.

Street-duel is where the "victim" is stupid enough to agree to "square off" and fight someone. Then that someone pulls a knife. Does he pull it in the pre-contact phase (maybe as a deterrent)? Or does he pull it after the thing's underway?

In a zero compliance scenario the attacker doesn't care if their victim sees the knife or not. They probably won't see it until they've already been hit. Awareness is key. Sometimes the attack is random, and sometimes the attacker knows the victim. Hard to train for that outside of having instantaneous recognition and appropriate response. That's a broad range of specifics that have to be explored mentally as well as tactically. Nobody or "style" has the silver bullet. The compliance scenarios will afford you some opportunity for intelligence gathering and emotional assessment, but the hit-and-run attack requires a different presence of mind.

In training, don't allow the emphasis of the weapon to eliminate any tactical option. Sometimes when I train with people and they play the role of the attacker, all they think about is the weapon and forget that we both have the skills and tactics of our empty-hand training.

Never trust a man who only swings one arm as he approaches you.

Be careful around people who carry their coat over their arm.

What will you consign to attrition if you decide to fight back?

What resources are available to you during a confrontation?

Can you buy time enough to escape?

Are you willing to die for what you have in your pocket?

Know when to stop thinking and start being instinctive.

[Daniel Madar]

This topic comes up every now and again. I did a significant amount of knife v knife practice exclusively with a mixed group of martial artists, ranging from Pentjak Silat to escrima to tae kwon do. I don't think I've ever seen an unarmed knife defense that will work against an intelligent knife fighter.

Your best bet is to hope the guy reveals the knife before he stabs/slashes you. In any and all cases, run away. If it's a robbery, throw your money on the ground and run away. It's not worth it.

Here's a story for you. Shortly after I moved to Japan, I began doing kendo. A friend of mine was doing aikido, and said I should check it out. I said not thanks, because I didn't think it was a realistic self defense system, particularly against bladed weapons. My "pal" then tells his Sensei who takes umbrage and invites me down to the dojo for a demonstration. I agreed that if the Sensei could defend himself, I'd study with him

The long and the short of it... I never studied aikido.

Just run.

[Shooter]

Daniel, are all knife attacks perpetrated by skilled knife-fighters? What if you're in an elevator or a phone booth? What if you wake up and there's a knife wielding burglar in your home? What if you're working security or law enforcement? What if your loved ones are in danger? In other words, what if running isn't an option? Wouldn't it make sense to have some contingencies?

Those what-ifs are an everyday reality for thousands of people.

[SevenStar]

The reason I was wondering is because I wanted to know the methodology behind it. Is it like kali? Is it existant at all? what grips are used on the blade,etc.

[Stranger]

goto http://www.rovere.com for info on Chinese martial art based knifefighting.

[anerlich]

I go to a Wing Chun school, but my instructor teaches Hock Hockheim's system for knife and uno baston dos manos.

[Satanachia]

While we've done a bit of knife work and knife defence in class, basically it all comes down to this:

1. If you've got a choice, don't fight. Comply.
2. If you fight someone who has a knife, YOU WILL get cut. You just generally have to keep cool and make sure that its not to some vital area.
I can't remember if someone here suggested it, or if it was somewhere else, but here's an idea to see just how "effective" knife defence is. I haven't tried it, so i don't know if it works.
Dress in black, with long sleeves. A skivvy or something is fine. Have the other person attack you with a thick peice of white chalk substituted for knife, if you get away clean, wonderful. If not, you've just got a graphical aid to show you where you would of been slashed had the real thing gone down.
So once again, in a knife fight, even if you win the encounter, you will get cut somewhat.
3. If someone has a clue or knows what they're doing with the knife, you'll be dead in a fight anyway.

[TaoBoxer]

I don't know who said it earlier...but it is true. Go to a knife fight...you'll end up bleeding. THe key here is to maximize his bleeding and minimize yours.

I think it is a mistake to modify or add a "knife defense module" to your training. you need to take what you ALREADY do and see how it works against a knife. If it works, good. If not, modify it. If it can't be modified.....don't do it. Always keep in ind that the knife isn't dangersous..... Just the guy holdiing it.......

(Shameless Plug: I teach Ditch Medicine (First aid for Edged Weapon and Gun Shot Wounds) for Sig Sauer at their Sig Arms Academy in New Hampshire. I recommend anyone who carries a gun or a knife find some kind of First Aid program...)

[anerlich]

Agree with your rules, except:


1. If you've got a choice, don't fight. Comply.

If you have a choice, don't fight. RUN. If you can't run, and the guy doesn't want your wallet or something else, in which case give it up and run, then RESIST.

If he says "Do what I say and I won't hurt you," are you going to believe him? The guy's criminal or antisocial enough to threaten you with a knife, but he's principled enough not to lie? To quote Wallid Ismail, "BOOOLLSHEEEIIT!" Don't believe him.

If you offer your property and he still wants something else, it almost certainly involves serious injury, rape, torture and/or death. Fight to escape, you ain't going to get hurt any worse and at least you have some control where with complying you have none. The longer he has to exercise control the fewer options you have.

If I'm trapped in my home and I think someone's going to hurt me severely, I'd rather try to fight them off long enough to escape using a weapon like a knife from my kitchen drawer or an improvised club rather than with no weapon at all. Like "Animal" said, "you're not an ape, use a tool". My primary desire in knife training is to learn to use a knife to defend myself in a life and death situation, rather than unarmed defenses against a knife, though we do those too as one must always practise for the worst case scenario.

Reference for the above argument - "Strong on Defense", Sanford Strong.

[SevenStar]

I think the topic of the thread was lost somewhere. I'm looking for chinese methodologies to knife fighting. Stranger posted a link to something. Kali has its approach, silat has its approach. I started this thread to find out about the chinese approach.

[KC Elbows]

I've only recently done any knifework at my class, so my experience is pretty limited. From what I'm told, most of the techniques are close to direct translations from the snake open hand stuff(southern five animals).

As an aside, for sparring, we wear white shirts(from the thrift store, like a quarter each) and junky pants, and we fight with markers.

[Daniel Madar]

I think the Chinese approaches to knife fighting are pretty wildly varied. Bagua had the "elbow knives", which are long and held along the forearms, it also has the "dragon fangs" held in a traditional grip, and used with a pseudo sabre grip. Wing Chun has the short chopping knives which are completely different from the other knifework I've seen. Seems most knifework I've seen sticks to the general strengths of the system it's part of, rather than creating a separate method. As such, snake system knife work would be quick stabs, most likely sabre grip, with whirling cutting methods.

Sorry for detracting from the thread.

Oh, and shooter, use some common sense. What do you think, if someone pulled a knife on me in an elevator, I'd run around in small circles? The point was that too many people try to pull a knife defense out of their ass, and get cut badly for it. I wasn't trying to write the definitive treatise on the subject of what do to when confronted with a knife.

I'd also like to say that I agree most with the statement that your standard practice is your best knife defense in the event you have no other choice. Go with what you know best.

[SevenStar]

"What do you think, if someone pulled a knife on me in an elevator, I'd run around in small circles?"

LOL

That post is more of what I was looking to hear.

[sanchezero]

I know a woman who was woken in her own bed by someone stabbing her and managed to pound on him enough that he ran away in time for her to call the ambulance.

She was mighty fu<ked up, but d/\mn...

Just cause someone has a knife (or any weapon) ain't the end of the world. However :) I'm big into the running thing. Lose weight while saving your a$$.

[Black Jack]

SevenStar,

I have tried to bring up this topic in the past on numerous occasions to get a practical CMA viewpoint and it was almost non-existant.

Your best link is the one that Stranger past on, though I believe that the Rovere link is for chinese military knife related defenses and not knife related attack/assassination methods, either way it is a good start.

A route I was trying to research at one time was the Chinese Toashin or "Chinese Bowie" that was used by the American railroad workers in the 19th century.

Just like ground fighting the Chinese arts also seem to be very weak in practical knife work or at least when compared to what else is out there from different cultures, by weak I mean in terms of getting any knowledge on the subject, as it is either almost non-existant, not trained from a practical standard, or confined to a few very rare martial groups, criminal societies or fighting brotherhoods.

In your search for Chinese knife methodology I would avoid anyone who states that you can learn an empty-hand set and zippo it will translate to close quarter blade related fighting.

Their is a vast difference in the dynamics between the power delivery in hand to hand and in that of a knife and the fact that empty hand work does not address the issue of edge alignment when trying to crossover a fistic technique to a blade principle.

Good luck though and let me know if you find anything of interest to share.

:cool:

[Stranger]

In Dennis Rovere's Chinese Military Police: Knife, Baton & Weapons there is a ten page section on offensive use of the knife from a Chinese perspective. There is also a knife form and many techniques for the knife used defensively against other weapons.

[Black Jack]

Whats up Stranger,

What was the Chinese perspective and what if any differences did you come across in this section that you may have not seen elsewhere?

It should also be noted that this is coming from a cut-down military based perspective/apporach and not one of a traditional CMA system.

[Stranger]

The material from the particular book I mentioned was drawn from the san shou/san da methods of the Wu Jing. Black Jack is therefore correct that these techniques represent an apparent 'streamlined' eclectic blend of traditional Chinese techniques to suit the modern H2H scenarios faced by the Wu Jing.

The first thing I look at when seeing a 'new approach to knife fighting' is whether or not the instructor has merely repackaged FMA (the most readily available knife fighting curriculum in America to pirate techniques from). This book does not appear to be FMA.

First, the knife fighting strategy seems to move more aggressively towards a finishing move rather than defanging the snake. I suspect this is a factor of the military application of these techniques.

Second, there are some moves that have spinning/circular footwork, low sweeps, and/or chin na.

Third, the knife and baton forms have some body positions that resemble traditional CMA (at least to an outsider).

Fourth, there is a section on knife fighting/H2H ethics from a Chinese perspective. An interesting view on groin strikes is contained in this section, plus an alternate target in that neighborhood is provided. I have been experimenting with this target and believe it to be a superior option to the groin strike.

The knife retention and section was very informative and jibed well with what I had already been taught.

Mr. Rovere is a really giving and knowledgeable person, who obviously could answer any questions about his material with better information than me. I would recommend contacting him if you have any questions about what he does or what products he offers. He sometimes appears on this forum, so maybe if you just addressed a thread directly to him, he'd respond.