How is Fung Sui Chings or Chung Bos Wing Chun related to Guo Lao Wing Chun or Pien sa

[FIRE HAWK]

How is the wing Chun that comes from Fung Sui ching and Chung Bo such as Chung Bos separet techniques san sao Wing Chun and Fung Sui Chings 13 separet hands san sao wing chun and the Yuen Kay San 12 forms san sao wing chun that comes from Chung bo related to Guo Lao Wing chun and Pien San Wing Chun. what are the differences in these styles of wing chun and did Yip Man learn or practice any san sao type of wing chun?

[reneritchie]

They are related in that they all try to encapsulate some of the core concepts of Wing Chun descending from the Red Junk. While there are some differences in choreograpy, that essance is shared between them (centerline punch, side turn, step, tan, fook, bong, and the concepts/strategies). One differences stems from the fact that Leung Jan taught San Sik as his whole system in Gulao, so it had to cover far more concepts/material (because he didn't teach any linked sets to get into the rest). Cheung Bo also had many more San Sik, but after learning from Yuen Kay-San, Sum Nung had the three linked sets and so taught only a few San Sik (combined from Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay-San) to his students so that they could defend themselves earlier on (they tended to fight a lot back then ;). Fung Siu-Ching, at least by the time he was teaching out of the Yuen house, was teaching already experienced WCK people (for the most part), and was also old like Leung Jan, so he concentrated his San Sik on the areas he felt they needed work on (close body application, kum na, fan kum na, throws, etc.)

Kind of interesting that though from different lines (one from Wong Wah-Bo and one from Dai Fa Min Kam), and different backgrounds (one an apothecary challenge fighter, the other a marshal), both ended up teaching San Sik at the end of their lives, and their students seem to have picked up some very practical, well tested, and quite distilled points from them.

As to Yip Man, according to some of his early students, he did teach San Sik (up to 17) in the very early days, before getting more into the forms. The Cho family also has 13 hands they start off with. You can find more on all this at http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/systems

Rgds,

RR

[Nichiren]

Rene;

If compared, what are the similarities/dfferences between "Yul Kil"SP? that is the root for MAI WC with Wai Po Tang and Yip Man WC?

[reneritchie]

Yiu Kai (sounds closer to me to that than Yiu Kil) is the late son of Yiu Choi (his son, Yiu Keung, I think, now teaches in Foshan). Yiu Choi was first the student of Yuen Chai-Wan, and learned some WCK very close to Yuen Kay-San's. When Yuen Chai-Wan moved to Vietnam in 1936, Yuen Kay-San still wasn't taking any students (wouldn't until the early 40s), so YCW introduced Yiu Choi to study with Ng Jung-So (considered to be one of the most talented of Chan Wah-Shun's students and the one who coached Yip Man following Chan's incapacity from illness). Yiu Choi and his brother ran a club and Ng taught out of there until he retired. Yiu Choi took care of him until he passed away.

In terms of system, Yiu Choi learned Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training), Juk Jong (Bamboo Dummy), and Yee Jee Kim Yeung Dit Ming Do (Parallel Clamping Yang Life Taking Knives) from Yuen Chai-Wan, then learned Chum Kiu and Biu Jee from Ng Jung-So (Ng, reportedly, never taught any weapons and only taught the dummy to his closest disciple).

From this, Yiu Choi synthesized a very nice system of Wing Chun Kuen, which he passed on to Yiu Kai. It retains both flavors of the two branches it comes from (both from Wong Wah-Bo but one flavored by Fok Bo-Chuen, the other by Leung Jan and Chan Wah-Shun).

So, due to the connection of Ng Jung-So coaching Yip Man and Yiu Choi, they are very close in that material. Even their Siu Lien Tao now seems a little closer to Ng Jung-So IMHO. Their knife form is closer to YKS, but Yip Man's varies a lot so there may be more or less similarity depending on which student of YiP Man's you compare to (sometimes it seems there's more difference among Yip Man's students than between the different branches). Like most Foshan WCK, to me, it seems closest to the Leung Sheung version of Yip Man's HK WCK (also to Yip Man's Foshan students). They tend to keep the horse sunk until the knees are clamping close to one-fist-distance, straighten the spine, drop the shoulders, hollow the chest, keep in the elbows, etc. and turn and step with most of the weight on one leg (similar to Leung Sheung's system).

Leung Ting's book, Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun, if you can ignore the politics in its text, has pictures of an elderly Yiu Kai doing much of his forms. It's my understanding, due to his age and the nature of photographs for books, they're not 100% accurate to the flavor, but probably as close as any of us will get to seeing it.


Rgds,

RR

[Nichiren]

Thanks... Great reply! :D