Off to BJJ

[Water Dragon]

I'll be rolling for the first time in a year in about 2 hours. I'm off to my friends house right now. I'm friggin' hyped!!!!

I'll let you guys know how it went tonight (hopefully I don't puke :D )

[Nichiren]

Yeah, I'm also going trolling! :D

[Ryu]

Good luck. Don't break anything, and watch your neck! :D

Ryu

[ATENG]

seriously...watch your neck...

i rolled with my friend who did catch and a trained with some bjj guys... and since i had little grappling experience he caught me in a guillotine(i prolly misspelled that). not realizing the severity of the situation, i tried to force my way out of it..hahaha. and then *pain*. neck has never been quite the same since.

[Water Dragon]

Got back. I love the class. Every one is real cool. Gassed quick, but not as quick as I thought I would. Got completely dominated, but I knew I would. We did some grappling from stand up. I couldn't get any throws, but they couldn't get me either. Well, except for a Blue who snapped a flying armbar on me.

It's gonna be a good, good year. Tomorrow morning is Shuai Chiao class. I LOVE training hard.

[SevenStar]

Cool. I expect to pick up some good stuff next time I go up there.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, I'm hoping to have some tricks by then. They have a cool style. They use the leg extensively on the ground. It's almost like they have three arms. It's hard to describe but real cool.

Oh yeah, the place where they train at is a Shaolin Do school, LOL.

[diego]

I wonder what ralek would have to say about this

[SevenStar]

prolly respect them, otherwise they'd get put out

[Merryprankster]

Water,

Exactly!

People really don't understand that playing against somebody with a good open guard is a messy affair--you are contstantly watching your balance, and trying not to get submitted. Backing out to kick and punch just isn't as easy as it sounds.

Did you get to "ride the wave yet?" That beautiful feeling of utter helplessness when the grips are in and you feel like everything you do results in some part of you being tilted in danger of getting swept or manipulated? :)

[Water Dragon]

Bro, I'm OK at defending but that's it. (It's the one thing from Taiji that translated over to BJJ) I can't position, I can't control, and I sure as he.ll can't finish. So me rolling is basically me defending against a blue for 2 minutes and tap. To me, rolling IS riding the wave :D

But give me 2 years Dam-mit!!!

[SevenStar]

I know what you mean. My size is my saving grace. I can position, and due to my size I can control, and also muscle my way out of positions and muscle opponents into them. My submissions are limited, they could use some expanding. I have great breath control and relaxation on the ground though, so I don't tire easily. There's a Royce purple belt here, but he charges 60 a month so until I get some bills paid off It'll be hard paying for that and longfist. Hopefully I can drop by there soon though, even if I have to try and work something with him where I only go once a week.

[Water Dragon]

Well, that's what I'm doing. Once a week on Saturdays. It's a good deal. My strategy on the ground is totally dofferent. I like to use that yielding $hit to roll out of set ups. And of course, stay relaxed. I refuse to fight them.

[Mr. Nemo]

"They use the leg extensively on the ground. It's almost like they have three arms. It's hard to describe but real cool. "

I would say the use the *legs* extensively on the ground, and it's almost like they have *four* arms.

While we're talking about this, I got my first person to tap from a submission from the guard yesterday (that didn't let me - I've "tapped" my instructor more times than anyone else) it was a triangle. I used to hate the guard, and only try to sweep from my back, but now I'm learning to live with it.

[Ryu]

"riding the wave" huh? I used to call it "Ryu gets his butt kicked" :D

Because of judo, my escapes and top fighting was really solid, but my guard wasn't too good. I have been improving it lately, but I still don't feel as comfortable as i do when I'm going for a pin, hold, etc.

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

Ryu,

How were your passes? There is a guy who played Kosen style in Japan for a few years and has WICKED pressure, but I tend not to notice that kind of pressure coming from folks who work more on their olympic type judo.

We have a big blue with a murderous grip that sends me flying through the air when I try doing stand up with him and coming to grips... when sparring all out, I never let him get his hands on me and I just shoot from forever away :)

[Order]

First since this is a kung fu forum why are you changing topic and talking about bjj? What do you believe is in bjj that is better than Kung Fu? Let me tell you something, traditional jiu jitsu has everything bjj plus more. And it was developed from Chi'n Na while the best stuff from Chi'n Na was kept hidden from the Japanese. See, what the Gracie's did was take a part of the traditional Jiu Jitsu system, and ignore the rest of the system.

[Merryprankster]

Order,

It's called specialization. Name me a Chinese system that focuses almost exclusively on groundwork. You get good at what you train for. Some of us just think its cool and like it and don't find it incompatible with other arts. There is a whole neat world down there!

Waterdragon has some ring aspirations using traditional Chinese martial arts systems as his primary stand up. However, you absolutely have to know what's going on on the ground in order to ringfight, so he's training BJJ.

[Ryu]

No one said anything bad mouthing kung fu, or claiming BJJ had more than the other offered. Merry, simply asked a question.



MerryPrankster, my guard passes were actually not bad. I have a stocky frame in a way, and had a lot of "umph" when I blasted through them. My mistake would be occasionally leaving myself open for a gi choke. :( But I worked on that for a while, and am better at it I think. I worked with a Brazilian BJJ blue who came to the dojo frequently who showed me some awesome passes hot out of Brazil. :D I was very fortunate, but couldn't do them half as well as he could.

When I was in guard, I choked a few people out with gi chokes, but I would focus more on trying to sweep, or reverse to get back on top.

I'm trying to keep my practice up. ;)

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

Ryu,

Yeah, being stocky like that helps when you are going THROUGH peoples guards because it's more natural to make a "wall," so they can't get their hooks in.

I find, even at my height, that I prefer to go through than around :)

[fightfan]

Fun, right guys? Its good to see peaple sharing thoughts about crosstraining. Too bad some peaple arent more open minded.
Im no black belt in BJJ but Ive been training pretty consistently for almost five years now and heres a few little things that helped me improve my guard quite a bit.
To condition your body for the guard a strong trunk doesnt hurt. Lots of Leglifts, seated twists, situps, crunches w/legs in open and closed guard positions, hip escapes, and lots of free squats.
ALWAYS make the first move! Make them play your game.
Keep their weight off of you. Escape your hips to make them lose balance and stay close.
Train hard!



:cool:

[Merryprankster]

I find that simply playing open guard against decent opposition provides me with all the truck development I can handle :)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well after todays workout with my little group, we will once again play with the BJJ guys. I spent the week working on getting comfortable with certain set-ups and doing roadwork (I end stand-up pretty fast, this ground sh!t tuckers me out!).

Frankly, I don't understand the resistance to it from my fellow CMA types. I see a need to improve my knowledge of these guys because its POPULAR - remember 'know your enemy and know yourself?"

Besides that, it really is smart, sophisticated stuff. They still can't stop me if I have my pocket knife, but I don't always want to cut somebody up either.

And frankly, it's fun. People tend to get hurt more in stand up free fighting - it's harder to find opponents. And now that my job requires me to 'look good', ground rolling is a way to still enjoy a little 'fightin'. Even though now I go from usually winning to usually getting whipped like a red headed step child :).

Which brings me to a simple point. I've been training a LONG time. I have a pretty good rep out there. I'm not afraid of looking bad or losing when I try new things. To all my fellow 'experts' and 'masters' oiut there - who cares how you look - train! Don't be afraid of trying new things! Seriously, I've seen too many teachers so afraid of thier reputation that they won't even get on the floor.

It's FUN to be a begginner again. Try it.

[Xebsball]

Hey you guys, im starting a poll for the Grappling forum or not.

Please vote.

[Order]

There is groundfighting in Kung Fu. The difference is that Kung Fu doesn't roll around on the mat, but strike and kick to injure and get out of there fast! There is also exclusive styles like Dog Boxing that knock the person there and destroy them.

[Braden]

Allright... so why don't you contribute some technical discussion from those schools, instead of just critisizing people having technical discussion about other schools?

[GinSueDog]

Yeah, I always heard that there are Kung Fu grappling systems out there or that Kung Fu has grappling or counters to it, but no one ever bothers getting into the technical aspects of it. Could someone, anyone with experience in this area provide more information? Maybe some examples, like how would a Dog Boxer(sp?) get out of a triangle or escape the mount, etc. Are there any submissions or is it basically all throws and sweeps?

Anyways, there is a little guy where I train that almost anyways uses the open guard and butterfly guard exclusivly. Pretty much I have to keep the presure very heavy and smother him or I end up on my back or worse. I basically stay tight and try to pass to side control. It is pretty impressive watching a 135lb guy submit guys out weighting him by thirty to fifty lbs.-ED

[Braden]

GSD - There's all sorts of kungfu grappling, if you meant standing grappling as well. Many styles, such as I the one I do, really couldn't be characterized as striking arts at all. As for groundfighting, I haven't seen or heard anything even remotely substantial, although I've heard the same claims you have. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865681767/qid=1012161084/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/103-9114237-5557440 is a book I enjoyed that shows some generic throws/sweeps from kungfu, emphasizing taiji/bagua/xingyi. You'd probably be familiar with many of them (shown are: shoulder stroke, rear head tilt, hip displacement, front hip push, outside hip throw, headlock hip throw, rear hip spiral, rear chin hook, head twist spiral, arm lift head spiral, leg bar spiral, arm and leg scissor throw, headlock backroll throw, forearm hook spiral), as well as applications of them, including several countergrappling ideas (such as the arm lift head spiral to counter a shoot). I think this book is a commentary and detailed analysis of selected methods from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865681759/qid=1012161492/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_2/103-9114237-5557440 which is an overview, with some detailed principles, of grappling from bagua (interestingly, includes a variety of single and double leg takedowns!).

[Order]

in Dog Boxing the opponent is pulled to the ground, scissored, and kicked. In my opinion, Chi'n Na is all you need to add to striking. It can break an arm standing up and in a snap of an eye. There is also Shuai Chiao(Chinese wrestling) and shou kuai jiao (Chinese Fast Wrestling) which cam be beneficial.

[shenwu disciple]

You can't go to the ground in Shuai Chiao, Order. Do you think that the guard has no martial benefits? And there is striking in bjj.

[Black Jack]

I don't mean to be a pest but this kind of stuff bothers me.

Order,

Where is your codified proof that Japenese Jui-Jitsu came from Chin Na, what Ryu-ha, what teacher, what Chinese system, when was this passed, how was this passed, if you do not have such things then you should keep the CMA is the "almight" ego trip in line as Japenese Jui-Jitsu can take care of itself without the backup.

It is bizzare to think that the Japenese had no locking or seizing techniques and principles and that they were not as advanced as what we see today, this is not to say that their has been no Chinese crossover, of course, but such statement like it "came" from Chin Na are so bs.

[old jong]

Take any book about Judo and you will find many interesting story on it's origins (the many styles or ryu of Ju-Jitsu). All of these are talking about chinese buddhist monks who taught some techniques to the Japanese. I'm sure that many of these tales were enjolived and are there to stir interest just like modern publicity does in our days. But it is absolutely impossible that Japanese martial arts were not unfluenced in a very large part by the Chinese M.A.
All martial arts are related in some way. ;)

[Mr. Nemo]

"in Dog Boxing the opponent is pulled to the ground, scissored, and kicked."

Could you explain this? Is "pulling them to the ground" like pulling guard, that is, pulling them on top of you? What does "scissored" mean?

[Black Jack]

Old Jong,

As stated above, I agree that of course their has been some crossbreeding from the chinese in this regard due to the sheer geographic location but the same could be stated for the Chinese in regards to learning from the Japenese in certain respects, stories of course are just stories, methods of survival are hardly given growth in a vacum.

I know you were not serious per say but I have never been a believer in the all arts are connected theory.

IMHO.

Regards.

[Stranger]

Chinese influence and my 2 cents


Italian explorers brought the noodle back to Italy. Centuries later the Italian chefs have created a cuisine that while heavily reliant on pasta, has no real commonality with Chinese cuisine. Both cuisines are excellent, and a master chef in either style would be respected by culinary enthusiasts around the globe.

JMA existed prior to the CMA influence and they have evolved since the influence. Both CMA and JMA can be quite good and yet different in many ways, having evolved to suit the particular tastes of their people.

Besides, everytime this debate comes up, somebody shows up to remind us all that CMA was highly influenced by Indian input, which in turn was impacted by the armies of Alexander the Great, who in turn.......... yadda-yadda-yadda......., and Nubian wrestling is the original martial art.

It is all pointless speculation at this point and has little to do with the martial art styles as we practice them today other than as interesting historical footnote.

[old jong]

I really was not trying to create a historical debate there and I know that a lot of water has run under the bridges since those days. Who really knows anyway?...They had no internet back then!;)

[Water Dragon]

C'mon Order. You need to really experience the art before you talk bad about it. It's different than CMA, but it's good stuff. My BJJ friend is starting Shuai Chiao with us next week. And I have complete confidence he'll stick with it. No offense, but do you even train hard? You don't seem to have the respect that those who train hard have. I'd like to see you come to BJJ and throw up because you're not conditioned. Even more, I'd like to see you come to my Shaui Chiao class and take a hundred throws. That's about 3-4 hours of no talking, pure throwing. Truth be told, I think the BJJ guys are much more likely to stick with the traditional CMA training than a lot of the "Kung Fu" guys.

I guess Boxing and Muay Thai are no good either, eh?

[Order]

Let's be honest and say that they are seriously deficient in their striking techniques. Their goal is to shoot in, take a strike to the head, and tackle the man, going to the ground with him.

Seems to me as if they took a small part of the art, groundwork, and totally ignored stand-up grappling, good kicking skills, good striking skills. So the improvement to which you refer must be with the groundwork, and certainly not with the whole system.
BJJ has taken aspects from Jujitsu and Judo, and it is true that all of BJJ techniques are contained within these 2 arts, however one cannot say the inverse is true.

Which of those two skills would you rather have when your family is threatened, submission or lethal?. While you waste your time in ground position securing an armbar. The other guys buddy could be raping your wife! Look, grappling has it's place in a controlled environment, such as a ring or "rasslin" with a friend one to one. But I wouldn't want to tie myself up with one guy to the exclusion of dealing with his buddy/ies. Not to mention how easy it is for a young kid to walk up to you wearing boots, and while you're on the ground "submitting" someone, he stomps on your head. See Ya!

People on here asked "Why study Chinese Boxing?". Quite simply because it works. It is practical, and it doesnt require a certain environment or other factors to make it so.

[Stranger]

Order,

A) BJJ practitioners do not tackle.

B) If BJJ practioners 'ignore stand up grappling', how come they were able to counter Water Dragon's Shuai-Chiao takedowns and catch him with a flying armbar?
(They could not throw Water Dragon either, so it sounds like a tie)

C) BJJ practitioners don't take shots to the head as part of their strategy.

[GinSueDog]

Here is an old Chinese saying," How can young fool defeat army, if he cannot defeat one man." Okay, I made it up, but it's the truth. Too many people worry about beating a whole gang, when they can not even hold there own in a one on one fight. If you are worried about protecting your family from a gang of rapists, buy a gun or move to a better area. As it is I really doubt any art or style has an a effective way to deal with mass attacks without the use of a weapon.

As for lethal, at least what is taught in BJJ or submission wrestling is pretty much self evident in it's effectiveness. After all, all it takes for a choke to be lethal is for you to hold it for a few seconds. The whole striking thing is a good point though, and I doubt that anyone that studies BJJ would disagree with you but most that I train with also cross train in styles like boxing, Muay Thai, etc to make up for this weakness. I agree there are things in BJJ that I don't like, but most are minor and can be easily corrected.-ED

[Water Dragon]

Stranger, for the record, I feel that when my Shuai Chiao develops, it will be able to take both BJJ'ers and wrestlers. ANd the throws are so nasty, one is all it will take. But first the man must become proficient in the system. But yeah, I hear your point. I can already hurt most traditionalists real bad. It's the people who train hard (in any system) that give me trouble.

[Stranger]

WD,

I wasn't trying to slight SC; all that I have seen is amazing. It doesn't take a back seat to any art in takedowns, and I know the takedowns are crippling. I also know that BJJ training usually doesn't have a lot of standup grappling. My point wasn't that, "hahahaha BJJ trumps SC in the stand up scene." More likely, either the BJJ club or the source of their knowledge saw a deficiency in BJJ and adjusted their training to improve their takedowns and defense of takedowns. My point was to say what Merryprankster was saying in a slightly different way, the deficiencies of BJJ are apparent even to its practitioners and their training can be modified to address this. What many non-traditionalists don't understand about traditionalists is why, when necessary, they can't acknowledge deficiencies in their own style's training and modify their training to deal with them. This doesn't always demand cross-training, but it does demand an honest evaluation of your skills and an understanding of how to tailor whatever skills are at your disposal (whether from one art or many- a matter of choice) to address the greatest number of threats.

I totally respect your art and your training and would consider it a learning experience to train with you, so please don't take the previous post as a jab at your personal skills or your style's techniques.

I just don't like it when people who have not experienced an art for themselves, dismiss it entirely based on false perceptions (ie. tackles and taking head shots) .

The tunnel vision demonstrated by some posters has really gotten to me. I just don't understand people who view the world as "me" and "not me"; "not me" always being wrong.

[Merryprankster]

I have almost as much interest and faith in Order as I do in Ralek.

He's like the anti-troll... you know, same mass, properities different charge :)

Anyhoo....

Stranger--random useless bit of trivia; the noodle was apparently known in the mediterranean prior to the polo trip to china, so it is likely that pasta was already known. I'm a foodie... I can't help it :)


Order, have you taken BJJ? Or are you just regurgitating what you've heard? Some rather novel stuff is REGULARLY practiced from the guard, half-guard and passing situations that are not commonly found in most Judo or traditional jujutsu curricula.

Yes, you are right... the striking sucks in BJJ. The groundfighting sucks in Wing Chun. What's your point?

And as far as what skills I would like to have, all skills are hypothetically useful. We can play what if games all day. The real answer is that BJJ (Or any other system) isn't the end all be all of fighting, nobody with an ounce of sense pretends it is, and the useful skills you gain are a comfort level on the ground, a thorough knowledge joint locks and chokes, and great ways to reverse position, get up and leave.

Lastly, you've failed to answer my question:

Provide me with an example of a CMA devoted to groundfighting (not grappling per se). We already all knew about chinese wrestling, so it was hardly a revelation. Give me the name, lineage and current GM (Or GM's if that's the case). Describe their strategy and provide me with some basic descriptions of what is done in a typical sparring session of mat work.


I do believe you are talking out of your ass.

[SevenStar]

Order, It seems pretty obvious you don't have much experience fighting a good grappler. Why don't you go train with some, then come back and honestly say the same things that you are saying now. It's all too easy to talk sh!t about other styles, but when it's gametime, you find out that it's totally different than you thought it would be. Out of curiosity, what is it you have against BJJ? You seem to be all for JJJ.

[Merryprankster]

He's got the same problem most "traditionalists" have with BJJ.

--It's different, it capitalizes on a weakness in most "traditional" styles by using a range in which they are not comfortable.

--It is not "spiritual," in any real sense of the word

--It tends to run "its" mouth... :)

--It's new--no 2000 year old lineage complete with creation myth to tell.

--The attitude is put up or shut up, which runs directly counter to most TMA styles.

--Did I mention running mouths? :)


Gross generalizations here of course :)

[Stranger]

Merryprankster (aka Molto Mario):p ,

I then concede that the food analogy was incorrect. :o

[Xebsball]

Hey people...

I was watching this martial arts program on tv today.
They showed this Jiu Jitsu master that trained with Helio and his family, he is about the same age as Helio i think.
He showed this technique that i cant describe but was really cool that i see in MMA but they never counter it that way, i got a feeling that his Jiu Jitsu is a little diferent from the others.
His stundents said when they learned techniques in other places their teacher would show them a effortless version of the move.

Also very interesting is he had a resisting neck, kinda like those shaolin qigong that break spears. But what he did was resist a two handed front choke with his neck strenght/skill.
He comented that cauliflower ears come from doing techniques in a way that neck is protected (and this way never developed) while the ears are sacrificed in the process.
It may sound weird, but as a fact he and his students, none of them have cauliflower ears and they also didnt seem to wear ear protectors either.

[Merryprankster]

Nah, cauli just comes from rolling around be it wrestling, judo, bjj... it also comes from getting pounded on, like boxers. But it sounds like a cool little thing you saw.

[Order]

It is obvious to me that you either havent read my earlier posts, or are unable to draw conclusions based on logic. So I will try to put it in more easily understood phrasing. I never said that grappling was an unnecessary part of combat training. In fact I said that good fighters were skilled in both. hence there is a difference between grappling and rolling on the ground.

Most Chinese arts are rounded systems with joint locks as well as grabbling. I already named a style which specialises with destroying opponents on ground, and it is Dog Boxing. Our principles will remain intact in dealing with ground survival, because our goal is to get to our feet as quickly as possible, not stay down there.

If I have to study one art for punching, another art for kicking, and still another for grappling, when am I ever going to have time to master one?
I just happen to love economy and simplicity, and I find all I need to be combat effective within Hsing I.

If he clinches or goes for the legs, I'll assume he's grappling,in which case I'll respond accordingly. Why is it that some practitioners of arts specializing in grappling arts always make the erroneous assumption that the rest of us will be completely unprepared, taken to the ground, and either pummelled into submission or have something broken? We are ready for them, we have surprises waiting for them so that the first strike takes them completely out of the offensive mindset.

My main concern about Mixed Martial Arts is that they are not what they pretend / hope to be. They are at best constructive martial sports. Games. Play. It is ok as long as those doing it don't illusion themselves. It is not because you feel superior to someone else that this someone else cannot kill you in a snap. Misjudgement kills in some situation.

In real life you do not have the lexury of tapping out or winning by making your opponent tap out. Or being secure in the knowledge that your opponent would not grab and savagely wrench your testicles or lips, or hook and viciously tear at your nostrils when your decide that you are going to wrestle him to "death". This stuff is okay for sport....but I for one, if told by some guy that I should become his sicofant diciple because he won alot of fights by rolling around on the ground with some guy who didnt know what in the hell he was doing by rolling around on a padded mat, will be sure to take it with a grain of salt.

My kung fu works for me, if yours dont, quit doing it.

[Merryprankster]

MMA can be a sport. It can also be self defense. It depends on context.

Just to remind you, the Hsing I you do in your kwoon is "play" as well. If it's not, then I imagine you have a hard time finding training partners. The bottom line is that we all train as close to realistically as we think we can.

However, where the disagreements tend to lie is in what constitutes realistic.

It has been MY EXPERIENCE, and this is a GROSS generalization, that MMA types define realism through training methods (full speed, 100% sparring on a frequent basis, gross motor techniques emphasized, etc), at the expense of "critical" strikes since you can't really practice them at 100% etc, where as TMA types tend to define realism through techniques (eye strikes/gouges, groin and throat tears, knees to the groin, biting), at the expense of "simulating" the full effect of the technique.

There are extremes on either end. I'm sure the real answer lies somewhere in the middle.

I'm glad you found what works for you. That's a good thing.

You've named a style and provided no background. Have you had direct experience with Dog Boxing, or are you repeating something you've heard? Do you know of any contacts in the style? Where might one go to find out more about it?

You're right! Most self defense systems incorporate many different ranges. Same with BJJ or Wing Chun or Hsing I, I suspect, although they have different fighting philosophies.

Systems are simply tools with a philosophy attached. It's up to YOU as the practicioner to choose the right tool for the job.

You say I make an assumption about "your response," to a grappler, but I think it's the other way around. You assume I will use my grappling skills to take you down and finish it there.

What if I use my grappling skills to take you down and boot stomp you into oblivion? Or simply take you down and leave.

None of it is better. It's different. Properly instructed, properly trained martial arts are the key.

Lastly, I am going to say this once. A grappler is good at grappling. This usually encompases controlling an opponent on the ground. If you are not skilled on the ground and the grappler puts you there, you are going to have a VERY hard time getting back up. Unless you spend a regular amount of time on the mat, you're going to stay where the grappler decides you are going to stay. Sure, there are plenty of strategies to deal with somebody grabbing you and putting you on the ground. IN MOST SYSTEMS, this is geared to escaping the grips of an "untrained," person. A good grappler will shut your movement down.

Your goal as a fighter might be to get up, but you're going to have a **** hard time doing it.

Is a good ground grappler BETTER than a good "stand up guy" who has only the bare rudiments of the ground game? The answer is NO. However, IF the fight gets to the ground, then that striker is going to, in all likelihood, get b!tched.

To dictate the range of the fight is a huge part of winning. This is the crux of the issue: To get up off the ground so you can dictate the range of the fight, you MUST be intimately familiar with certain aspects of the ground game or it's going to be a rough ride.

[SevenStar]

"Most Chinese arts are rounded systems with joint locks as well as grabbling."

Chin na doesn't work the same way on the ground with resistance. If you've never fought someone with grappling experience and expect to use chin na on your first time doing so, you may be in for a rude awakening.

" I already named a style which specialises with destroying opponents on ground, and it is Dog Boxing. Our principles will remain intact in dealing with ground survival, because our goal is to get to our feet as quickly as possible, not stay down there."

Same thing with grappling. You think If I get you down in a real fight I want to make you tap??? You know that in a fight, that wouldn't be that way, right? I'll be breaking something, not tapping you. I don't want to stay on the ground, as I don't know whether or not he has friends trying to come stomp me, if he has weapons, etc. If I'm on the ground, I want to be able to get up quickly and efficiently.

"If I have to study one art for punching, another art for kicking, and still another for grappling, when am I ever going to have time to master one?"

You master your base style. If I train kung fu in class three days a week and on my own 5 days a week, I have plenty of time to master kung fu. One day a week in the boxing gym and one day a week on the mat gives me enough practical experience with boxing and bjj to pick up useful things to add to my base style.

Then, you have to look at the flip side of the coin. What if you don't WANT to master a style? A person may want to simply know how to defend themselves effectively. Mastering a style is not a prerequisite for that.

"My main concern about Mixed Martial Arts is that they are not what they pretend / hope to be. They are at best constructive martial sports. Games. Play. It is ok as long as those doing it don't illusion themselves. It is not because you feel superior to someone else that this someone else cannot kill you in a snap. Misjudgement kills in some situation. "

believe me, a thaiboxer or mma are more than capable of handling themselves on the street, whether they train for sport or not. I can make that same argument for tradionalists who fool themselves into thinking they can defend themselves, even though they don't spar, and the drills they do are light contact.

[GinSueDog]

Order,

"Why is it that some practitioners of arts specializing in grappling arts always make the erroneous assumption that the rest of us will be completely unprepared, taken to the ground, and either pummelled into submission or have something broken?"

Well to answer your question, because 99.99% of the time those individuals that do not train in some form of specialized submission grappling system erroneous make the assumption that there anti-grappling techniques from whatever system they study will be enough to deal with someone who does train in a specialized submission grappling system.

It really isn't that hard to cross train, and it doesn't have to take a whole lot of time either. For me, I prefer to train in various specialized systems to get what I need. I broke it down to Boxing/Muay Thai and submission grappling.

BTW, anyone that tries to play at another systems game, especially if the system specializes at that game is more then likely going to be the loser. You know the old saying, never box a boxer, the same can be said about never grapple a grappler. Of course a lot of the time you really don't get a choice.

Good luck with your training, if what you are doing works for you, then good for you. Just don't fool yourself.-ED

P.S.-I personally made the choice to train under that instructor with the actual ring experience and it has made all the difference in my game.

[Ryu]

"Which of those two skills would you rather have when your family is threatened, submission or lethal?. While you waste your time in ground position securing an armbar. The other guys buddy could be raping your wife!"

Or they could pull out a gun while your trying to punch and kick, put you on your knees, tie you up, and do what they want (and do the same to your wife)
(hmm managed to **** myself off this time .....)

What a dumb statement. If a group of people attack you and your wife, shoot them, stab them quick, and get her the hell out of there. No martial arts. Forget em.

I think this is just a troll post.

Ryu

[LEGEND]

ORDER...where can I ORDER these HSING practioner defeating other grapplers...are they in abdul nabhi using CHIN NA??? where oh where??? But u guys are sooooo high level...but no compete...

[Water Dragon]

LEGEND, Hsing Yi's good stuff. They're not as quick as boxers, but they do hit signifigantly harder. Don't let some dude hiding behing the Hsing Yi name give you a bad impression of the art. It's a good, solid striking art. They even do some takedowns where they set you up and then just beat you down into the ground. Pretty vicious guys.

[LEGEND]

Water Dragon...cool...I'll take your word for it bro!

[fa_jing]

Glad you had fun and learned on Saturday. You didn't miss anything up my way, actually. Let me know if you have a day off from work in the near future.
-FJ

[MonkeySlap Too]

Went to try me best escapes from the ground against some skilled BJJers. These tricks have been working for me - until now.

I've gotta say I am really impressed with these guys - they effectively threw me while they were upside down and I was on my way up. It was so simple, I couldn't stop laughing - I love it when that light goes on.

They were good sports and helped me figure out how to work against them better.

Then spent the rest of the afternoon comparing leg pick techniques - it looks like a few of them are joining my class, which is great because I get to work on practicing against them.

Please note - neither of us are working really damaging techniques - my personal goal is to round out my skill set so that I do not HAVE to hurt somebody. BJJ does this really well. On the other hand, I think those guys see a way to super charge thier stand up with Shuai Chiao - not to mention how to hit harder.

Also had a great discussion on the differences between how Judo, BJJ, Greco-Roman and Shuai Chiao handle the clinch. Next my Sambo coach, who is working with me to develop his 'kung fu body', is teaching me Sambo structure exercises so I can work better on the ground.

This is SO cool. I do not understand the resistance my fellow CMA types have to training with these guys. I mean, they did want me to prove myself first (which I did - you don't want to know my nick name is now) and now its all practical workouts. It reminds me of the stories about the Xing Yi/Ba Gua/ Shuai Chiao guys in Beijing before the turn of the 20th century.

I just wish I was younger!

[Order]

As to Chin Na or joint locks being any less effective on the ground; on this point I must disagree. We used to go for 20 minutes (4 five minute rounds), and I successfully used shoulder locks, wrist locks, head cranks, and trachea/carotid chokes. All of these are Chin Na.

"Same thing with grappling. You think If I get you down in a real fight I want to make you tap??? You know that in a fight, that wouldn't be that way, right? I'll be breaking something, not tapping you. I don't want to stay on the ground, as I don't know whether or not he has friends trying to come stomp me, if he has weapons, etc. If I'm on the ground, I want to be able to get up quickly and efficiently."

Even after having studied grappling, it is still better if opponent is on ground, I am standing.


"You master your base style. If I train kung fu in class three days a week and on my own 5 days a week, I have plenty of time to master kung fu. One day a week in the boxing gym and one day a week on the mat gives me enough practical experience with boxing and bjj to pick up useful things to add to my base style. "

Training schedule not as important as something/whatever being "in the body". I personally train 7 days a week by myself and 3 days a week in Hsing I, 1 day a week in Bahala Na Arnis Escrima.

"Then, you have to look at the flip side of the coin. What if you don't WANT to master a style? A person may want to simply know how to defend themselves effectively. Mastering a style is not a prerequisite for that."

Thats very true. It only has to be "in your body" for the action to be autokinematic



"believe me, a thaiboxer or mma are more than capable of handling themselves on the street, whether they train for sport or not. "

Some are, some are not. thaiboxers fight thaiboxers. grapplers usually fight other grapplers.

"I can make that same argument for tradionalists who fool themselves into thinking they can defend themselves, even though they don't spar, and the drills they do are light contact."

You are very correct. The training must simulate reality as closely as possible.


"Well to answer your question, because 99.99% of the time those individuals that do not train in some form of specialized submission grappling system erroneous make the assumption that there anti-grappling techniques from whatever system they study will be enough to deal with someone who does train in a specialized submission grappling system. "

This is purely theoretical. It all comes down to the individuals involved. Whether or not they have the heart to do whatever it takes. I am personally confident that I can hurt a grappler before he takes me to the ground, and if not sufficiently, I have been there before, and I will survive. I know the guard,ground mechanics etc.., and it will then be a matter of conditioning. In any long drawn out combat, it is always a matter of conditioning.



"It really isn't that hard to cross train, and it doesn't have to take a whole lot of time either. For me, I prefer to train in various specialized systems to get what I need. I broke it down to Boxing/Muay Thai and submission grappling. BTW, anyone that tries to play at another systems game, especially if the system specializes at that game is more then likely going to be the loser. You know the old saying, never box a boxer, the same can be said about never grapple a grappler. Of course a lot of the time you really don't get a choice. Good luck with your training, if what you are doing works for you, then good for you. Just don't fool yourself. "

Good luck with yours as well.

Don't lose faith, if you are a xing yi practitioner. Everything is possible. If the mastery of your beloved art to the level of the ancient masters intended, the timing is right, the target is vital and the waves are thunder speed and the footwalk are shadowless then it is possible. The bottom line is we should always ask ourself the question : are we up to the standard of the old masters of generations ? If the answere is no then we should train harder and smarter. Everytime I answere that question myself I feel that I have a long way to go. Only going deep into the art that you start appreciating what the art have to offer.

[Merryprankster]

Order--Seven wasn't saying that Chin Na doesn't work on the ground, he was saying that the entries are different because the way of moving on the ground is, by necessity, different.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Order--Seven wasn't saying that Chin Na doesn't work on the ground, he was saying that the entries are different because the way of moving on the ground is, by necessity, different.

At least someone understands!

"Some are, some are not. thaiboxers fight thaiboxers. grapplers usually fight other grapplers. "

And CMA usually fight.... you got it, CMA. However, the average thai boxer (from my experience) is more accustomed to hard contact than the average CMA. That experince alone can save your bacon in the time of need. If I am sparring full contact, even medium, I KNOW what I can do and what works for me. If the majority of my time is spent doing forms and drills (not all CMA schools of course, so don't start on that) then I don't have that assurance.

"Even after having studied grappling, it is still better if opponent is on ground, I am standing."

And without that knowledge, you are sh!t out of luck if you ever end up in a fight with a grappler. By training grappling, you will be familiar with the techs and have a better chance of getting back up.

"I personally train 7 days a week by myself and 3 days a week in Hsing I, 1 day a week in Bahala Na Arnis Escrima."

See, you cross train. If you don't mind me asking, why are you taking escrima?

"The bottom line is we should always ask ourself the question : are we up to the standard of the old masters of generations ?"

This is a different day and time. Most people will answer no to this question, and due to the quality of instruction today, and styles being wushu-ized, most people never will be.

[Merryprankster]

Seven,

This is where sportive styles have an advantage--the sports cannot be wushu-ized. The Judo practicioners of today are probably every bit as good (at least at throwing) as the old bad-asses and the boxers of today probably every bit as good as the old ones. Oh sure, the rules have changed in some ways, but are you going to tell me that Cael Sanderson isn't as good as Dan Gable was back in his day? Not likely. Of course, some of it depends on era--there's a weak heavyweight division in boxing and has been for a bit, but you catch the drift.

Of course, the question does become one of "as good at what," when you start looking at rule changes, but you catch my meaning.

Here's something odd--why do we have continually better world records in shot and sprinting and swimming and what not, and then we turn around and say "oh, today's (insert combat sport here) just aren't as good as they were in 1930)"

Funny that, don't you think?

[Mr. Nemo]

Order, where do you train?

[SevenStar]

I gotta agree with ya there.

[Order]

"And CMA usually fight.... you got it, CMA. However, the average thai boxer (from my experience) is more accustomed to hard contact than the average CMA. That experince alone can save your bacon in the time of need. If I am sparring full contact, even medium, I KNOW what I can do and what works for me. If the majority of my time is spent doing forms and drills (not all CMA schools of course, so don't start on that) then I don't have that assurance."


My teacher and I work out defenses tailored especially for the fighting arts we consider the most challenging to deal with : Grappling, Western boxing(these two are also by far the most commonly employed), and Muay Thai.
We also suit up with pads for medium contact. We hit each other. We will soon have full body armor so that we can hit a little harder, however Hsing I blows are designed to do internal damage, so we would still not be at 100% power.

"And without that knowledge, you are sh!t out of luck if you ever end up in a fight with a grappler. By training grappling, you will be familiar with the techs and have a better chance of getting back up."

I am very familiar with the techniques, they are just not my preference.

Seriously now, you dont even know me. Why would you make such a bold statement one would expect from a high school student said with the "meet me after school" mentality. The best grapplers I have ever seen, Gene Lebell, the Gracies etc... would never open with a grappling move. They always feint with a strike or kick first. Do you not understand it's easier to attack a man where his attention isn't focused?

If you're going to be using both your hands to grab me I'll be using both of mine to stop ya! Aint verbal one step stuff fun?


"See, you cross train. If you don't mind me asking, why are you taking escrima?"


I find the body mechanics to be similar enough to relate back to Hsing I. Hsing I being a military art was designed to be equally effective with or without weapons by doing the forms just as they are. One difference though, the Bahala Na school tends to remain forward weighted, whereas we like to be back weighted for various reasons. Oh and plus the class is free.


"where do you train?"


I train Hsing I in Decatur, Ga, and Bahala Na in Smyrna, Ga. theyre about 20 minutes apart.

[Tigerstyle]

"why do we have continually better world records in shot and sprinting and swimming and what not, and then we turn around and say 'oh, today's (insert combat sport here) just aren't as good as they were in 1930' "

The answer is simple Merry...

Steroids! :p


Actually, I always thought the same thing when someone mentions how great MA were "back then". :)

[Merryprankster]

Die Big, Die Young, DIANABOL!! :)