Robert W. Smith on UFC

[Ray Pina]

"Ultimate Fighting is Rediculous. It has minimal regulation, making for a brutal, dangerous hash that most competent fighters would avoid, although their technical competence is much higher than the rag-tag participants Ultimate pulls, and they would have a fairly easy time of it if they entered.

There is a saying, "A gentelam is a man who can play bagpipes -- but won't." The competent fighters see Ultimate as a beastly activity reflecting nothing so much as a terribly neurotic insecurity in participants and fans. The competents are of such a quality that they don't have to engage in it -- their status is secure and their egos intact."
---- Robert W. Smith, Martial Musings.

While I agree with much that Mr. SMith writes, and respect him for if nothing else but having the courage to live an exceptional life, I still desire to enter one of these one day and win.

Why? Am I insecure? Perhaps. I don't think that the men entering these events are particularly skilled, but they fight hard. There is money on the line as well as pride with the potential for the world to see you get your head handed to you in a cage by another man. It is because of this intensity, that I would like to test my skill in this forum. Masters like my sifu (I'm sure or at least hope their are others like him out there holding onto to the life of these arts) have been tested by time and those who saught and still seak to challenge them. They are of a different level, and mostly underground. They are playing at a higher level.

But for me, I want to try and prove what Mr. Smith says, that a competent fighter would have an easy go at such a thing. Easy, I wouldn't go that far, but possible to dominate with the right technique, I think so. Basically, I agree with Mr. Smith, but the theory, like any, needs to be put to the test before it can be so easily accepted.

A few chapters into his book, enjoying it.
Ray

[Mr. Nemo]

Robert W. Smith on Bagua: "The purpose of bagua is walk around your opponent in circles until he gets dizzy".

Robert W. Smith should keep his mouth shut about things he doesn't understand. Yeah, mixed martial artists have no skill, whatever.

[Paul]

Whatever, statements like that are ridiculous.

I think the UFC is pretty cool.

I figure I've only got 4-5 good years left in me (getting old), but my Sifu has said that he would train me to compete in that format if I want to do it. I'm going to start out with kickboxing and san shou and see where things go from there.

[Polaris]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

reflecting nothing so much as a terribly neurotic insecurity in participants and fans. The competents are of such a quality that they don't have to engage in it -- their status is secure and their egos intact.

Well my problem with that is why study Martial Arts if you
aren't actually going to fight. Shouldn't one want to test themselves as vigorously as they can? By competeing one puts their "ego"/reputation on the line. Also, by fighting in a sanctioned event you don't have to worry about legal ramifications, or having a gun pulled on you.

[taijiquan_student]

Don't take Smith too seriously, especially not on something like UFC where he has no knowledge. His books can OCASIONALLY be interesting to read (I really only like the masters and methods book), but sometimes you just wonder what the fu(k Emerson and Rousseau quotes are doing in an essay on the root in taiji.

[rubthebuddha]

who the hell is this chump robert smith? all i could find is either pages saying he's a dolt or pages saying he's amazing (those were the pages his book was sold from).

anyhoo, it doesn't seem like he has any more to say than some nob radio shock dj.

am i wrong, or am i just peeved that he's befouling a name that should only classify singers from one of the world's greatest bands ... the cure.

and i quote from south park, "robert smith is the greatest person ever!"

[Merryprankster]

I think I speak for a lot of us when I say:

Who is Robert Smith, what has he done, and why should I care what he thinks on this issue?

[Budokan]

"Who is Robert Smith, what has he done, and why should I care what he thinks on this issue?" --M'Prankster

The fact that you ask that question is more illuminating about yourself than Robert W. Smith.

[Merryprankster]

Why, because I don't know why I should consider his opinion authoritative?

What if I had posted "Alexander Shulgin on Harmaline?"

Or how about "Karelin on Abu Dhabi?"

Or maybe "Rhadi Ferguson on Tachiwaza?"

Or "Master K on Muay Thai?"

Or "Irving King on the development of littoral marine capabilities?"

You'd have the same questions, I'd bet. Sorry I asked them, and SO sorry I asked in a way you didn't approve of.

[Braden]

rofl

Was it Rob Smith who started the idea that bagua exponents make their opponents dizzy!? Oh god... I've heard that from so many people. The scary thing is that they think it's a viable martial strategy. What's that quote about common sense not being so common?

[Braden]

Who's Irvine King? ;)

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

Dr. King is the US's premier historian on the development of the Coast Guard.

Consequently, he's fairly knowledgeable when it comes to (shocker), littoral marine craft and their capabilities.

He also knows a fair amount about historical riverine operations. :)

[bamboo_ leaf]

“Well my problem with that is why study Martial Arts if you
aren't actually going to fight.”

I thought the study was to prevent or protect one from fighting.
could be wrong ;)

[rubthebuddha]

i'm still waiting for an answer on who this robert smith is and why he's so important that budokan gets his panties in a bunch when two people don't know.

any takers? i've tried looking myself and had no luck, so i'm hoping someone else can give me something other than criticism of him (saw enough of that on my searches) or something praising his book while trying to sell it (ditto).

[Paul]

The only Robert Smith that I know of is the one from the Cure. Is it the same guy?

[Order]

I have a question. Why is so much of this conversation being centered around UFC? It is a sport competition, with sport rules. A real NHB fight is simply a sporting duel and nothing more. If any of these competitors just went outside one day and started fighting with anything goes, no time limits and no interruptions neither of them would walk away without serious injuries. There is a big difference between a so called NHB competition fight and reality. The whole attitude is different. In the real world you are fighting for your life, not money or fame. You can bully your way to victory by charging the opponent knowhing their is little space to evade and soft ground in the Western NHB competitions (ex UFC). Also taking punches from those gloves isn't that damaging so you can bully your way into a grabble. If there were no rules , then somebody should have died. In the old days before the Boxer Revolution there used to be furums for exponents to fully express there internal martial arts prowess. There were many deaths and injuries resulting from these tournaments. I dont believe that Hsing I people feel they have anything to prove. It is only self-doubt, or foolish ego which drives someone to embarrass themseves in such a way, which must be felt by the BJJ practitioner each time he has to to question the efficacy of his chosen discipline by engaging in sport fighting. We know our art is effective.

As I stated earlier, all I can say is I never lost, and my teacher never lost to. No shame in losing, but we never did. BJJ, Muai Thay, Kick boxing, Full contact, Karate, Judo, Kung Fu, we fought them all, and we knocked them ALL.

Another thing is that most UFC players don't study one art, meaning there isn't one art proven effective because they crosstrain both in striking and grappling. Which proves that even in controlled setting bjj can't win alone. But anyway, I never heard of any of those guys going to Asia proving their effectiveness against real Kung Fu in a fight to the death or till one man is not standing no longer. In real life no one will tap out so if you struggle with them on the ground and break their arm, you will have to eventually release and the fight won't be over.

In the beginning of the MMA scene, there were a few amateurs from Chinese styles who performed poorly. But you have to realize, they used completely inappropriate techniques such as opening with "high" kicking. How stupid is this with a grappler!

Chan Hon Chung is Monkey kung fu Five champion, who won full contact in Asia undefeated for five years in a row. Chances are you have seen very little if any, of the underground stuff anyway.

These arts were used for at least 300 years in life and death battlefield situations to survive. When compared to the more recently developed sports(notice the term sports) such as mixed martial arts , one only has to research a little history to see that styles such as Hsing I has proven itself as combat effective over a far longer time span than the previously mentioned style.

Robert W. Smith traveled through Taiwan in the 60's training in Chinese Boxing, and interviewing boxers when it was still alive, and before Chinese Boxing became known in West, also before it got popularised and commercialised. Here is a quote from his book "Chinese Boxing", that I find very interesting which talks about Tai Ch and his Tai CHi teacher from Taiwan:

"Diligent practise brings the skill of interpreting strengh. From this the ultimate goal is complete mastery of detecting the opponent's strengh...Coordinating the solid and empty is the key here. If that is achieved, then you can interpret strengh. After this, by studying vigorously and remembering, one can reach the stage on total reliance on mind.

From this, Liang argued persuasively that Tai Chi embraces within all the conditions of Taoist meditation. I heard that Yang Lu ch'an was once ambushed by one hundred ,and not wanting to kill any of the miscreants, he wrapped his cloak about him, submitted to the beatings, and was left for dead. The next day Yang worked as usual, but many of his attackers took to their beds as a result of injuries from beating the cloaked Yang. I scoffed at this example of the summit, but Cheng urged me not to; even he with but a part of Yang's energy had once permitted a famed Shaolin boxer to strike his relaxed arm. The boxer struck once and withdrew. When asked why, he told his friends that his entire side had been paralized on contact with Cheng's arm. Indeed, Wan Lai-sheng writes that when the arms and legs are no longer needed, when the chi holds sway, one is invulnerable to even knives and spears. This is called "Golden Bell Cover" (chin chung chao).

Back in circulation in Taiwan, Cheng soon had a large group of students. And again he was vulnerable to challenges. Once such occured when a well known praying mantis style boxer, Liang Tzu p'eng, came from Hong Kong to Taiwan to try conclusions with the locals. He traded punches (the accepted challenge method) with a leading Pakua/Hsing i teacher, and his free punch put the local man to his knees. In turn, the local boxer did not hurt Liang with his punch, so the affair had to be adjudged in Liang's favor. Strutting out of the park where this occured, Liang asked if Taiwan had any other boxers. Someone mentioned Cheng's name, so Liang accosted Cheng at a party. Cheng resisted the challenge, saying that the place and time where inappropriate. Liang persisted until Cheng invited him to his house a day or so later. Liang came and watched Cheng's demonstration of Tai Chi dynamics. But he was not satisfied. "This is interesting", Liang said, "but what would you do if I attacked you?" Cheng replied that he would attempt to push him away. Liang, by this time convinced that the small man before him was afraid to fight, resorted that it would be well to get ready for he was about to attack.

At this point Cheng said, "Very well but if you even see my hands move I'll never call myself Cheng again" (to give up one's name is so serious that many Chinese would rather commit suacide rather than do it). Liang attacked from fifteen feet with a combined foot-fist action. Those watching did not see what happened, only the result. Liang first was on top of Cheng striking, next he was propelled backwards by an unseen force and bounced off the wall unconscious.

Those who were there will never forget it. Liang himself took it in good grace, stayed on and studied Tai Chi for a time. But before he went back to Hong Kong he returned to the park to see the man he defeated earlier. That one casually told Liang that he was getting ready to challenge Cheng Man ch'ing. Liang said, "Don't bother I already been there".

Once Cheng invited me to attack him in any way I wished. From long years of judo and boxing I thought I knew how to maintain balance. I thought. I faked high with my hands and went in low to push his midriff. But he was not there when I arrived. Holding his hands lightly on mine he avoided my attack and in the same movement I bounced off the wall. I tried repreadetly, but never once did I penetrate his posture. his feet moved very little, but the acute sensivity of his body to my touch permitted him to neutralize me and push and lead me at will. Often he drew me forward so sharply that my ear nearly gazed the ground, and then, at the last moment, he would catch me, saving me some nasty consequences. His art goes beyond technique; I have never experienced anything so relaxed and yet so frightengly efficient in my life.

Another time he invited me to attack him. I did. He dodged in, deflected, struck me lightly. He had done this before. But this time he did not stop the attack. Both hands were in my eyes, on my throatm all over my midriff and at the same time his feet peppered my legs. It was so beutifully orchestrated that I could not turn from it. I backed fanatically until I came to the wall, where, after taking his finger from my throat, he desisted. Informal and friendly it should have been, but frightening it was. Against that there is no defense. I am certain that no one has ever been struck more quickly and often in such a short span of time. Fortunetly, he put little energy into the strikes."

[GinSueDog]

Order,
You know I have a nice bridge for sale if you are interested:rolleyes: -ED

[Shin]

Personally, I prefer Fat Bob.

And if you don't know what I mean, you, Sirs are no Cure fans.

As for Robert Smith, I have a few problems with him.

One is that he openly admits that at least one of his books was written primarily as a joke. Hell if I can remember which one, but it sure calls all the rest of his writing into question.

The other problem is that Robert Smith is just some guy who wandered around collecting stories, and training with whoever he ran into. His level of scholarship is seriously in doubt.

He's also admitted that he's a mediocre martial artist. His basis for passing judgement on anything seems kind of limited to me.


this is a crappy post. I'm tired and I'm going to sleep.

Oh, and exactly how does doing martial arts prevent you from getting into a fight?

[Paul]

Order = Bizarro Ralek

[Ryu]

"Ryu on UFC"
"UFC has some really tough competition, and the fighters there work hard at what they do. If I went in there without training for it for a good amount of time, I'd probably get my booty kicked. :D It's not the street obviously, and I'd love the opportunity to beat a more skilled opponent through unfair means like a gun, but you gotta give these guys credit for what they do. Most people just don't fight that hard in their training. Hope I never have to fight one, but I like training with their concepts just in case ;) )

"Why train martial art if you aren't going to fight in a cage tournament?"
I like it. You can train the way NHB fighters train, and still never set foot in a ring if you don't want to. I don't want to fight in a cage, it's not my personality. Should I be stripped of the right to study MA because of that?

Merry, I know who all those people you mentioned were.
Do I get a prize?

Budokan, I didn't know either :( But I'm willing to learn! :) Who is he? (honest question)

Ginsue, :( I wanna bridge....

Ryu

[Ryu]

Oh, and exactly how does doing martial arts prevent you from getting into a fight?

Well I try to study real life scenarios, escalation warnings, first strike methods, awareness, etc.
Does that count? :(
I can avoid em :D

Plus since I rolled so hard I have a healthy understanding of my limitations and mortality :D
Don't wanna get into unnecessary fights! I might lose and get seriously killed :D

How's that? :(

:D
Ryu

[Shin]

No, it doesn't count. You could learn all of that by wandering the streets of downtown New York for a few nights. And you'd never need to throw on a gi, try out a punch, or put someone in an armbar. Studying real life scenarios is no substitute for real life.

[Merryprankster]

Ryu,

I didn't think you'd have much trouble with that list.

Did you really know who doctor king is? That's fairly impressive...

[Mr. Nemo]

To summarize Order's argument:

A - Me and my sifu are so good we could beat anybody in the UFC.

B - We don't enter the UFC because we have nothing to prove.

C - We know we're better than any of the UFC fighters because we've beaten fighters from a myriad of styles in challenge matches.

D - The success of MMA fighters is really meaningless because they have never gone to China to challenge the masters there in these "underground" events.

E - You've never heard of these underground tournaments, only hardcore kung fu guys know about them.

F - The success of MMA styles in the ring is meaningless because the ring is different from the street.

I see logical inconsistencies between points B and C, B and D, C and F, and D and E.

To summarize Mr. Nemo's argument:

A - Order knows very little about mixed martial arts.

B - Order is very likely not telling the truth about many of his accomplishments.

C - Order apparently does not feel the need to verify accounts of kung fu being able to numb an opponent merely by getting punched.

[SifuAbel]

Pardon my ignorance but, Who is Robert Smith and why does anyone care?

[Mr. Nemo]

Abel - Robert W. Smith was one of several people responsible for bringing the western world some of its first exposure to chinese martial arts. He originally visited Judo guys in japan, then went to taiwan and china, visiting with the masters there. I think he spent a fair amount of time with Cheng Man-Ching. He's written a few books, his latest is "martial musings".

And yes, Braden, that quote about bagua being an art designed to make your opponent dizzy is from Robert W. Smith.

Someone loaned me Martial Musings and I read most of it. There are actually some pretty cool stories in there, especially about the old judo guys he visited when he was in japan. I would take most of the stories about the chinese masters with several grains of salt, though.

Robert Smith is not a complete idiot or anything, I'm just saying that his comments about bagua and the UFC indicate that he is badly misinformed about these topics.

[Merryprankster]

SifuAbel,

Here's what Budokan told me when I asked that question:


Gee, I guess ignorance really is bliss

"Who is Robert Smith, what has he done, and why should I care what he thinks on this issue?" --M'Prankster

The fact that you ask that question is more illuminating about yourself than Robert W. Smith.


Does that clear it up for you? :rolleyes:

[Crimson Phoenix]

Yes, well, his comment on bagua made me go "hhmmmmmmmm" too (not the good kinda way though), like any theory stating, for that matter, that "bagua trains circle walking because they walk circles around their opponents in fights"...but I have to say that I would rather trust someone telling me he's "not a good martial artist" over someone telling me he's good...the best martial artists I ever seen always said they were no good...
I have the utmost respect for Smith, because it's easy to forget in our era of reckoning of chinese arts and all the wondeful teachers available that back in Smith's days seldom were they to endeavour in such a quest.
But anyway wether you agree or not with his statement, no man is mistake-free, so there's no big deal either way wethere he's right or not...

[Budokan]

Robert W. Smith's joke persona was "John Gilbey". Donn Draeger also helped in the formation of this persona, if I'm not mistaken. "Gilbey" wrote columns and a book about martial arts, full of outrageous lies and fantastic embellishments, which even today is still used as a serious journalistic source by some MA who have the intelligence of tube worms. I can't remember the name of "Gilbey's" book offhand, but a search at amazon.com should turn something up for the mildly interested... It was, at one time, something of a bestseller as well, if I remember correctly. At least in the MA world...

[apoweyn]

merryprankster,

to answer your question (as best i can anyway), robert smith was a martial arts historian (or charlatan, depending on your point of view). he, along with donn draeger, wrote a fair amount on martial arts history. personally, i've been impressed with their stuff, but this quote on UFC is nonsense in my opinion.

next time we get together, i'll try to remember to bring a tape of the learning channel special on martial arts. smith is featured fairly prominently.


budokan,

i think you're letting this self-appointed 'troll buster' thing get away from you.


stuart b.

[NafAnal]

Didn't he say that wing chun was a mediocre boxing method with an over reliance on hands and that kicks would go right through it?

[shaolinboxer]

I find this statement about the UFC very interesting. It is the perfect example of the trap created by these contests.

UFC Guy says: If you're so go step into the ring and prove it.
Classic MA Guy says: I'm so good and so zen and modest, the very idea disgusts me.
UFC Guy says: If you're so good you don't need to prove it, prove it!

So, how can you prove that you have no need to prove yourself?

A good koan.

[Paul]

I'm so good and so zen and modest, the very idea disgusts me.

Is that what he is really saying? Or is he saying I'm scared so I will hide behind a wall of tradition?

[apoweyn]

alternatively, how can you disprove that a person claiming to be too secure to compete isn't to insecure to compete?

the thing is that both options are valid, to my mind. you want to find out, then get in the ring and find out. you feel comfortable with what you can do, then i think that's excellent too.

the problem is with the constant claims by both sides supposing that they understand the other. "traditional guys are afraid to get their hands dirty." whatever. applicable to some. complete bollocks in relation to others. "MMA guys are just ego-driven barbarians." please. if i want to preserve my ego, I DON'T PUT IT IN DANGER. i don't stack myself up against highly motivated and well conditioned combat athletes. i just don't. because if i do, sooner or later, my ego's getting a wake up call.

we've lost the ability to be honest with ourselves and with each other. why does the guy next to me compete in MMA? i don't know. ask him. why does the guy next to him NOT do so? i don't know that either. and i'm not going to assume anything about the invalidity of either of their stances.


stuart b.

[LEGEND]

ORDER...call me CHAOs.

[bamboo_ leaf]

The statement about” why train in MA if your not going to fight,” seems to reflect a view point of fighting as a sporting event something to win instead of something to avoid or survive.

As to how it can help to prevent fighting, I would think by learning respect and valuing life would hopefully teach one to deescalate things or walk away if possible.

Why train in MA if your not going to fight, try asking that soccer dad who is in jail right now and will be for about 5yrs or so if he thought fighting was the way to go. Or ask the guy who was I think shot after running after the people who took something from him.

In one case he as a lot of time to think about his actions, in the other case either he’s in a better place or starting over hard to tell, the story said he was killed.

so go out and learn how to fight, feed that ego have your moment of golry but, please know the differnce between fighting and MMA sporting events.

Robert Smith, bought many things to light that where for the most part unknown in the west.

I think sometimes it not what a person says that’s important but the things that lead s/he to that viewpoint are. In this context you may not agree but have some understanding of where there coming from. ;)

[Budokan]

:D Sometimes it's like shooting fish in a barrel...

[LEGEND]

bamboo true true...too bad mr. smith is wrong about the UFC though.

[shaolinboxer]

"if i want to preserve my ego, I DON'T PUT IT IN DANGER. i don't stack myself up against highly motivated and well conditioned combat athletes. i just don't. because if i do, sooner or later, my ego's getting a wake up call. "

Or you can say "well at least I'm tough enough to enter the UFC" like VanClief, who turned his under a minute loss into a statement about how tough he is.

[Shin]

If you want to learn to respect and value life, and you need MA to do it, you really don't know how to live at all. At the very least, if you can't do that, save yourself years of practice and cash, and get some paramedic training. Not only will you see situations where you will truly learn what value life has, you will be in a position to help someone in those situations.

Please, please, puh-lease stop with the MA makes you a better person crap.

I'm not sure how you are attempting to make the connection between MA and the guy in Jail. He didn't do MA, so what's your point? If he did, he'd still be in jail. Are you saying that if he did do MA he'd been cool-headed enough to avoid the situation entirely?

hahahahah.

haha

ha...

Sigh.

Martial arts is not a magic potion that allows you to make the correct choice. It's attitudes like that that get people killed in the first place.

Don't let martial arts do your thinking for you, you need to do it for yourself.

[apoweyn]

true. but not everything in the barrel is a fish. but they're still in the line of fire.

:)


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

"Or you can say "well at least I'm tough enough to enter the UFC" like VanClief, who turned his under a minute loss into a statement about how tough he is."


yeah, but it IS a statement about how tough he is. good grief, the guy was in his fifties. if you and i do that when we're in our fifties, then we can perhaps look back a say, "whatever." until then, the guy earned the right.

i think van clief was a bit cheesy about that too. but think about it. he was an action movie star in the 70s, a highly successful karate competitor before that, and he could very easily have rested on his laurels, content with his reputation as a badass.

but HE DIDN'T. he took the chance AT 50, got in the ring, and got beaten. quickly. would you have taken that reputation and endangered it? not sure i would have. and that's a credit to him, not to me.


stuart b.

[Budokan]

I've been dutifully spanked. I'll behave for the rest of the day.

And on another topic: I too have respect for VanClief. I plan on banging teenage cheerleaders when I'm fifty, not getting into the ring with some 'roid monster to prove how tough I am. Kudos to him!

[SifuAbel]

Merrypoppins,

RW smith had absolutley NOTHING to do with my getting to kung fu class. I would have learned either way. My teachers would have learned either way.
We would have MA in america with or without him.

So again I ask, Why should we care? And, why should I care to even know his name? How would knowing or not know him really change what I do? Which of your teachers out there would have NOT learned if it wasn't for this man? Bamboo, would Sifu Lai not be here? Would Ark k. Wong not have been here in the 50's? Would bruce lee not make his movies? Or ChucK Norris?
This man has too much fanfare.
:rolleyes:

[apoweyn]

that said, troll busting is still an invaluable public service. and for that, i thank you.

now go to your room and think about what you've done. :)


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

sifuabel,

you're clear that merryprankster was saying precisely the same thing as you, right? i think you may want to reread the post.


stuart b.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“and get some paramedic training. Not only will you see situations where you will truly learn what value life has, you will be in a position to help someone in those situations”

a little leaf history won’t say much more on this.
I was a army grunt medic for about 9yrs, have seen and worked on dead or dying people. Not a good day :( .


Your right, as far as teaching morality I think studying the way should at lest teach respect and awareness if you’re a hard ass most of the sifu that I know won’t teach you.

[Shin]

So then you should know what I mean. One of the first things I saw in training was in an urban trauma center. Someone had rammed a civil war sabre into his own son (18 years old), and ripped his guts out with it.

That's when I learned to cherish life. Not a good day, I'll agree. But I sure learned something.

Not from watching the UFC, not from training in scenarios, and not from getting into some lame ass street fight with a two bit punk.

I will say this. I agree 100% that too many people who train MA do it for some weird glory reason.

And the other thing I'll say is that it's too easy to make leaps of judgement on what other people have and haven't done. Guess that was my bad.

[Tigerstyle]

SifuAbel,
I'm with apoweyn. MP's response was a sarcastic use of the answer he was given when asking the same question you did.

[Ryu]

I think a big part of the problem is that people use such trigger words when talking about competition, etc.
If someone says "I respect the hard work those fighters put into that, but I don't think it's for me. I'd have to focus my training specifically for the UFC, and don't really have any desire to fight in it. But I'm sure some of those guys can whip me! :D "

Instead of

"They're all barbarians, it's nothing like real fighting, and I think the whole thing is stupid. Any REAL martial artist could beat them all including me."

There wouldn't be a problem.


And as far as the martial arts make you a better person argument, some people find discipline of any kind a "character builder" It's the same with the army. Hell we all know not all people in the army are nice, but the discipline does have its merits to some. You can't really argue with that. Qualities like focus, concentration, competition, etc. can make a difference in someone life who has never had any of those qualities.
That's I think where a lot of it lies.
It's rather naive to argue that martial arts don't make you a better person when there are people who have indeed changed their value systems because of its study.
Just like everything else, people are different. Some can find that kind of thing in it, others can't. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it means different people take different stuff out of it.
It's the individual of course, but sometimes those individuals require a little push in the right direction. Some get it from martial arts, some get it from religion, some get it from self-help books, etc. I think it depends on how its taught, what the person is interested in, etc.

Ryu

[KC Elbows]

I think that's true of any skill one must develop. It can build character. I know that writing has made me reflect many times on who I am and where my weaknesses and strengths lie.

[Ryu]

KC, no kidding! Man, I've actually made monumental changes in my life because of my writing. I've been able to find out much more about myself because I kind of delve into my own nature and inner voice.

Ryu

[KC Elbows]

Same here, Ryu.

For instance, I've just realized that we've totally hijacked this thread. How selfish of us. I'd grapple with this internal problem, but you'll have to do it, as I haven't crosstrained enough.:D

[KC Elbows]

BTW, how's your submittal going for the other forum? I'm trying to write something drastically different than the book I'm working on, so I don't know how it will be, but it should be educational(for me).

[Shin]

In and of itself, the practice of martial arts does not create discipline nor build character.

You do, because you have a passion for it.

Like you said, there are people who have changed their whole value systems because of it. You didn't say that martial arts has changed people's whole value systems. It's a small, but significant difference.

[jimmy23]

Abel you owe merryprankster an apology.

Ryu makes a good point(as always)

And my style is superior!

[Ryu]

Right, but the martial art itself might have given them that push they needed to do it themselves. :) See where I'm coming from?
Confidence in oneself can go a long way.


KC, I'm starting on it, but I'm not used to writing short stories....
So 5000 words for me will be VERY limited! :( But I'll see what I can do. I'm probably going to use my "Bowie" character maybe...
make a new story...

Ryu

[KC Elbows]

Short stories are what I originally come from, so its not a stretch for me. I can't remember who said it, it might have been budoka, but one of the members once commented that novels focus on who the events are happening to, while short stories focus on the events themselves. I thought it was a good quote.

Most of my stuff is focussed on a flowing writing style, but what I'm working on for this submittal is entirely different, more stoccatto in style, plus a different genre than my preferred one(fantasy). Happy writing!:)

[Shin]

I can see where you are coming from.

But for every 1 guy who finds discipline and meaning in MA, there are 9 who can't hack it, and drop out.

Can you see where I am coming from?

[KC Elbows]

I'm not disagreeing, Shin. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that for every ten who hack it, there's 5 who don't become better people for having done it.

[Ryu]

Shin, I definitely see where you're coming from. :)
We can't make any extreme statements on the argument one way or another because there's always different situations and cases.

KC, good luck, man. I'm still keeping the fantasy genre, but I'm thinking of an interesting situation to have befall....
I should get a book maybe on the subject.

Ryu

[KC Elbows]

To be honest, martial arts, initially, made me a worse person. I felt invincible, but never tested my invincibility, I contributed to an environment that was ultimately negative(chung moo quan), and was narrow minded towards other peoples arts.

Later, I became a better person, but it is really hard to say that it was MA, or writing, or family, friends, Wren and Stimpy, what have you. I'm sure MA contibuted some, but its really hard to say what.

[Colin]

Robert W. Smith's book on Xing Yi Quan.
"Hsing-i, Chinese Internal Boxing" was the first Xing Yi book I purchased.
The introduction section about history of the style etc. is still quoted on most Xing Yi sites, because of it's accuracy.
So although I don't know whats going on in his mind now-adays, some of his earlier work was definately of some note.

regards
Colin...............

[Polaris]

Well I'm still sticking to what I said. Would you
study painting and the different techniques but
never actually paint? Would you study and practice
warm-ups, chords, and scales on a guitar but never
actually play music? Would you study the Kamasutra
and remain celibate? Would you study different
methods and techniques for meditation, but never
actually meditate?

Is there any other legal way to better test yourself than
MMA? That's not to say it's the only way. I get tired of
people always injecting the "ego" assumption. Is there
something wrong with wanting to be the best that you
can be? I know a 5 time UFC champion, and 2 of the
current champions among others. They are quite humble
and are infact very nice.

[Jimbo]

Over the years I have found positives and negatives about R.W.Smith's views.

IMO his writing is in general a heck of a lot more readable in style than most other writers on martial arts. His style and his insertions of quotes simply reflects the fact he loves literature as much as martial arts. What does that have to do with martial arts? Nothing, just that he likes it and injects it in his writing.

I will say that Smith has often contradicted himself. In older books he has been extremely critical of styles or systems he deemed ineffectual or less functional for real fighting. He even pointed out that in several old martial arts tournaments in Taiwan, the fighters were "throwing baseballs," sloppy winging punches, with little skill. He showed films of such fights to an Okinawan karate sensei who agreed. Smith then said this sensei made the mistake of saying the fighters wouldn't have stood a chance against his own master. Smith told him that kata is different from real fighting and that kata would have proven useless in actual fighting.

He also pointed out in the book Western Boxing and World Wrestling (written as John F. Gilbey) that in mixed matches grapplers almost always beat boxers (this was years before the UFC begun here). I would have thought Smith at least would have had some interest in what was happening in the UFC rather than downright dismissing it. Although I personally lost interest in watching it.

He is also insultingly critical of movie stars (read: Entertainers) who do martial arts or action movies. I mean, not everyone feels like watching only movies about cultured people sitting around drinking tea.

Smith seems to have a fairly low opinion of arts that are not Hsing-I, Bagua, Taiji, or judo/wrestling. Southern arts are particularly low on the list, except for maybe Fukien White Crane. It seems if he had met a sub-par practitioner of a system then in his opinion that meant the whole system was poor, which is a flawed belief system. He fails to realize nearly all systems eventually reach the "internal" level and you are not automatically internal or special just because you happen to practice Taiji, Hsing-I or Bagua.

Aside from all that, Smith was the first Westerner to write about many of these Chinese systems in the West. Before that, he was a very capable judo man and had also trained in boxing and probably wrestling as well. His assertion that he is a mediocre martial artist does not necessarily mean he sucks at martial arts. Remember, he's an old man now who's been around a long, long time. He obviously doesn't care about being the biggest bad a$$ in the world. Maybe he's one of those who finally realize, after so many years, just how much they really don't know about martial arts, which tends to happen when one matures and is around in the arts long enough.

Does being old make his opinions matter more? Not necessarily, but he's been doing the martial arts decades before any of us was a twinkle in our parents' eyes, and he has the right to express his opinions. I just don't agree with every one of them, though many I do. Like anything else, if you read his stuff take from it what you will and ignore the rest.

Jim

[rubthebuddha]

well put.

[Ryu]

Well I'm still sticking to what I said. Would you
study painting and the different techniques but
never actually paint?

No, but I might paint for myself out of sheer joy of it and never enter a professional art gallery. My painting might be a close level to the pros, but I may not have the desire to do it professionally.

Would you study and practice
warm-ups, chords, and scales on a guitar but never
actually play music?

No, but I may play music out of sheer self-expression, and never want to be a rock star.

Would you study the Kamasutra
and remain celibate?

No, but I might not publish books on sex, or do discuss it with anyone else other than my spouse.

Would you study different
methods and techniques for meditation, but never
actually meditate?

No, but I don't necessarily have to be a monk.


People don't all want to fight in a cage. That's not always a fallacy, sometimes they are different individuals.
I train a lot and I spar and I grapple and I study with lots of people.

But I'll never fight in a cage. I just don't want to. Plain and simple. I'm not afraid because I know if I trained the way they did I'd probably do well just like they do. I'm not "invincible" because I know there's lots of guys out there that can take me out (especially UFC guys LOL)
And I'm not insecure because I love my training the way it is, and I am very open-minded to the MMA way of training. In fact that is my way. But I don't do it professionally. Why must I do it professionally to enjoy its benefits?

Ryu

[Order]

The format of the ring is also a big humiliation to martial artist. It is like a chicken fight : the fighters are just pure chickens or rooters. In order to promote martial art with standard, people need to change the format of presentation with much more class and standard. In that case, you will most likely see more decent presentation of karate, Chinese Boxing, internals, etc.

[jun_erh]

I don't want to say to much because I only read a 2-3 pages of comments. I like Chinese Boxing masters and methods and secrets of Shoalin Temple Boxing (which he didn't really write). His writing on internal MA is his strong point, I've reread Masters and Methods many times. Obviously everything he says isn't going to be right. I don't agree with his UFC remark either.

[Merryprankster]

Ap,

I agree 100% with pretty much everything you've said. Makes great sense to me... especially the comments about why somebody does or doesn't compete.

And by the way, you summed up the ego thing PERFECTLY. The only way you protect your ego if you compete is by only fighting inferior opponents ALL the time. This means lying about your rank or experience level, only attending the smallest, most obscure tournaments, etc. I wish I could have gotten it across that well when I've been trying to talk.

SifuAbel--you did misunderstand. That's ok. No biggie. I was using Budokan's sarcastically to back up what you yourself said, ie, why should we care what RW Smith thinks. I'm sure there are no hard feelings.

Perhaps I should change my status to flying umbrella instead of on the road though :) Merrypoppins is actually QUITE clever.

Anyhoo, cheers!

[apoweyn]

thank you sir. :)

as you know, i'm not a competitor. but it still drives me bonkers when people assert that they thoroughly understand and then disapprove of a competitor's motivations. as if every competitor had the same personality, the same psyche, and so on.


stuart b.

[rubthebuddha]

you just know there's got to be at least a few competitors that do it for the chicks. seriously.

[Shaolindynasty]

Not all competetors are motivated by ego but you got to admit allot do. Or at least the promoters make it seem that way. UFC resembles the WWF more than anything now but that's more the promoters fault than anything. Also some of the more popular competitors have been pure egos like Tank Abbot. Tank wasn't a good martial artist on any level but people liked him cause he was a bad@$$. This happens in boxing, kickboxing even point fighting. I beleive the old southeast asian contests were ego driven to. That's the nature of competition.

[apoweyn]

there, you have a point. promoters and fans do add something to the equation.


stuart b.

[bamboo_ leaf]

very off topic

Leaf thoughts :)

Ego: an exaggerated sense of self-importance

Most of what I read here seems to be concerned with proving something either to oneself or others though the use of competition. Is this a bad thing? Off hand I would say no. I would say the inability or denial of what one really dose something for is.

I am not saying this is good or bad or any other comparison. I think the most important thing for a persons training is to really know the what and why of the training. It seems to me to follow one way with out this inner reflection leads to confusion and comparisons in the never ending surch for what is best.

Is wanting to be the best at something the same as wanting to know if it really works?

Is there a third option? What if the training itself was designed to give an awareness or perspective manifested in the human body and natural world for example like: balance and change.

Would that take it out of the context of proving or testing?

just some thoughts after reading some of the postings here ;)

[apoweyn]

bamboo leaf,

nice. really nice.

that's what i'm trying to get at too. and the problem with a lot of what goes on here is that outside observers make assumptions about one another that run contrary to people's internal self analysis.

in other words, if joe_mma competes because he has this burning desire to find out what he's made of, what right have i to come along and tell him that he's an ego-driven trophy harlot? none, really.

the types of people that compete are varied. tank abbott (as someone mentioned) doesn't strike me as the 'striving for self perfection' type. frank shamrock does. i'm sure he still enjoys banging people about, mind you.

are all competitors megalomaniacs? of course not. are all traditionalists unrealistic? equally silly assertion. i really like you're point that the true answers to questions on this stuff rest solely with the individual person.


stuart b.

[jun_erh]

Who do you think would be a better role model for your (perhaps hypothetical) children: Bruce Lee or Tank Abbot?

[Merryprankster]

See, this is where I get all confused.

Martial Arts are first about fighting, and only THEN can we discuss character development, and that particular little animal is negotiable.

Plenty of fine martial artists out there who are gifted and talented and unbelievably good who are also *******s.

Martial Arts and Character, while not unrelated, are not as closely intertwined as some would think. If you are looking to the martial arts instructor to be a role model, that's fine... maybe he or she is WORTHY of being a role model. But if a martial artist SHOULD be a role model... now, that's another question altogether. We SHOULD be role models because we're people, but being a role model is not a requirement for being a good martial artist.

In other words, being a good MAist and being a good person is a rather separate affair.

[red_fists]

Merryprankster.

I agree to a point.

But what about a Sifu or Instructor??

Each MA has the potential to become a Sifu, but most people want their Sifu to be a role-model to them or their Kids.

So should only the MA who ahs a good Character be choosen to become a Sifu.

And we got two types of MA Characters, or should everybody be measured by the same yardstick??

Something worthwhile pondering before getting upset and crying foul.

Seeya.

[Merryprankster]

We want our school teachers to be the same way--and here is where the distinction lies.

A Sifu or instructor is a teacher. As a TEACHER, they should behave in a respectful, role modelish type way, if for no other reason than nobody really wants to learn from an ******* :)

However, it's not his capacity as a martial artist that requires the qualities of role model, it's his capacity as a teacher. These are seperate functions, that shouldn't be confused.

Catch my meaning?

I can take a jerk and fill him with code-breaking knowledge so that he becomes a great fountain of information...how good a teacher is that person going to be? On the other hand, as far as "getting the job done," they might be great!

[red_fists]

Merryprankster.

I fully get what you are saying.

But there is still a change of somebody beong a good MA & bad Teacher and still teaching MA to people.

How would you say that this can be prevented or controlled??

IMHO, this is one of the reason for the many McDojo & MCKwoon out there, as well as the bad rep that some Arts have received.

But this should be discussed in a threat of it's own as it is not relevant to the original topic.

[Merryprankster]

There is only one way it can be solved--people must do research and go to many different schools, and carefully choose an instructor, rather than hoping on the McDojo ride.

But yes, topic for another thread.

[Shaolindynasty]

"Martial Arts are first about fighting, and only THEN can we discuss character development, and that particular little animal is negotiable"

Hmmm...I'd have to say, Yes and no.

I'll start with the no part first
If you say martial arts in general are about fighting first(which you did) then I'd agree with you. Since the majority of martial arts are. But (I know some will disagree) chinese arts that come from a temple background(shaolin, wudan, emei etc) or Japanese Budo arts put the development of the self above the combat aspect of the art. These arts don't really use combat to develop the person but they use the training. Now practitioners of these arts can be good fighters but the focus is intended to be alittle different than say Muay Thai, or BJJ. I'd consider JKD(or Bruce's philosophy) among the arts that are focused on developing character, even though he created a "non traditional, no nonsense art" his ultimate goal was to improve himself as a human being. I guess this is the place where I could insert the some saying about "it doesn't matter how many people you beat, if you can't conquer your self etc."

The yes part
All martial arts have combat training. No matter if the goal is actual combat or the use the combat as a vehicle for self improvement.


It's different paths and allot of people on either side don't respect the other path.

[Merryprankster]

Shaolin; my take on this--any hard work requiring accumulation of skill and application of self discipline would be appropriate as an adjunct to/part of the spiritual training you describe.

There is nothing mystical about the practice of martial arts that makes it particularly suited to spiritual development.

Consequently, if the above is taken as your starting point (which one may not agree with, and that's fine), then it flows that while martial arts may have been used as a tool for spiritual development, the PURPOSE would have been to ensure the temples and monks weren't pushovers for brigands. Hence, fighting first (as the fundamental purpose), spiritual development second.

[Shaolindynasty]

MP- I agree with you for the most part again but there are temples other than shaolin whose martial arts aren't well suited for the purpose you described above. For instance Taoist temples like Wudan practice internal arts like taichi and other similar to it. Now most people will agree that it takes along time to learn to use these arts, so if the main purpose was self defense that wouldn't make these arts to practical. Arts like these I beleive the emphasis was always on spiritual development.


The Budo arts were originally only about combat, that was supposed to have changed awhile ago with the emphasis on the spirit. I don't know to much about those arts so I won't comment anymore on that.

What I do know is that the majority of martial arts have evolved into two different directions sport and spiritual emphasis. Both can fight but their ultimate goals end up different.

"There is nothing mystical about the practice of martial arts that makes it particularly suited to spiritual development"

True the reason they became spiritual vehicles is because the philosophies of chan and the tao. These philosophies are formless so the form became martial arts in these traditions. Martial arts without these philosophies aren't that well suited for spiritual development. Look at the Christian martial arts association. They practice martial art and religion and neither have anything to do with each other. But Chan and Taoism can make anything spiritual.

Not all martial arts are intended to have any meaning other than combat but some are intended to have a different purpose. Yet being spiritual doesn't mean you don't like to fight, I mean c'mon is there anything else more fun?

[Merryprankster]

Eh, fair enough. You've obviously done more research than I have on the topic.

Cheers!

James

[red_fists]

HI.

I look at it this way:

What was the purpose of the Shao-Lin and other Temples.

1.) Do train Fighters.
2.) Do practice tao and chan buddhism.
3.) To build the foundation for worldwide MA domination.

I opt for 2.) yes, they arts were used to assist in spiritual development and physical conditioning.
It happened that those same exercises were found to be useful in Combat as well.

Also often only the Warrior Monks(Priests that had certain restrictions lifted) and hired lay-people were taught the full Combat application as those were the People defending the Temples.

Priest are not allowed not take life, similar to the Christian church.

Back to programmed scheduling.

[Ray Pina]

Well, I just got back from Vegas and I'm almost done with his book (I skipped ahead to that UFC section).

Why should anyone care what Robert Smith thinks? I don't necessasirly. But, as a person who respects his elders, Robert Smith has certainly been there and done that in regards of a Westerner going off to learn the Asian combat arts, so his opinion is interesting to me.

Also, he started off as a boxer and actually is all for making the sport illegal now. I understand this. At this point in his life he is over all of that.

Me, I'm still young and **** sure I guess. I look forward to Sat. and mixing it up with friends. I look forward to being good enough to step confidently into the ring with another who has trained hard and devoted a lot of time and see how I, what I'm studying, matches up. Fighting with friends is one thing, I know them and they are predictable. Strangers, pride and money will bring something else to the table to be delt with, and I'd like to deal with it. I don't care about the money, and I doubt anyone could build a name doing something so out of the public eye, I want to do it for me, and also to show that Chinese Martial arts is still alive. I think it is up to us, the next generation to keep it alive.

I doubt I will ever possess my teacher's skill, but if I can get the flavor, maybe I can whip up some nice dishes of my own.

Well, take care. I have a lot of work to do today ( need to write two articles for deadline). The books is pretty good. I'm enjoying it. I could pretty much read anything concerning Asia and fighting and weapons.