choy lay fut kicks

[RAIN]

there is some special trainning exercise for choy lay fut kicks ?

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Rain-

You are the guy who is trying to learn CLF from books and tapes, correct?

Choy Lay Fut has a lot of different kicks like most styles.

The big difference is that you don't lean back very much when you kick.

This makes your kicks faster but less powerful because you don't have your full weight behind them.

Here are a few other hints:

1) After you kick bring your foot back as quickly as possible to hanging horse (or crane) stance.

2) When doing a side kick, kick with the heel and the side of the foot. Japanese styles just use the heel but kung fu uses the edge of the foot. Sometimes they call this the "knife edge."

3) Keep your back straight when kicking, don't "hunch down" as you kick upwards.


Hope that helps. I'm sure there are some other people out there who might have some pointers for RAIN.

[premier]

I think the best thing you can do to practise kicks is to.. well.. kick.
And when you grasp the technique, apply it to a heavy bag or your training partner.

Fu pow was right about not leaning back, but you can get surprisingly lot of weight behind the kick by just using your waist and supporting leg properly. Just like in hand techniques, the feet stay rooted and you use the waist movement to generate power.

Some branches have forms that emphasize kicking techniques. like left right one legged form in chan family branch. The kicking exercises are done mainly with partner to develope different aspects of kicking and to make sure the technique is correct.


premier

[Jimbo]

Good advice form both Fu-Pow and Premier.

Fu-Pow:
Off the subject a bit...I have found the Japanese side kick actually sometimes overemphasizes the knife edge (sokuto). Traditionally, they tend to point the large toe up and point the other four toes down in an attempt to extend the edge of the foot more. I prefer to use a knife foot myself, but with all five toes pulled back.

Jim

[straightblast5]

Kicking is a necessary skill in Choy Lay Fut, but I tend not to over-emphasize its importance. The structure of Choy Lay Fut (in my opinion) is better served when both of the practitioner's feet are on the ground supporting or delivering hand techniques.

Just my opinion.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[extrajoseph]

Straightblast5,

I know you have a high reputation as a Wing Chun and CLF practitioner, but I must beg to differ. CLF is known as “nam kuen bak tui” (southern fists and northern feet), so kicking is an integral part of CLF. Without the legs we lose 50% of our arsenal. As premier said earlier, it is so important we have one form devoted entirely to kicking and many of the hand techniques are done with kicking combinations to create the effect of “making a sound to the east but attacking the west”. We must not underestimate the importance of kicking (and I don't mean fancy kicks). What you said may be true for Wing Chun but definitely not for CLF, IMHO. No disrespect is intended.

JosephX

[straightblast5]

Hello Joseph X

No disrespect interpreted. I wasn't aware of my reputation as anything more than a martial arts student (albeit a darn good looking one), but it's nice to hear. ;)

What I had wrote in regards to kicking is mainly what I have discovered through my own sparring and fighting experiences, and not just merely what someone had told me (including my father and Sifu WSL - the two people in this world that I respect most).

The method of Choy Lay Fut my father teaches does offer an effective kicking arsenal (none of which are fancy), but they definitely do not make up 50% of my CLF tools. Our CLF offensive strategy focuses more on attacking with "hand" techniques while using our feet mainly as a base to support or deliver our strikes. We don't neglect kicks (as they definitely have their place), we just don't over-emphasize kicking when it's not conducive to the situation. From my humble experiences, keeping two feet on the ground is generally safer in a real fight than balancing on one. I find this (IMHO) true for Ving Tsun, Choy Lay Fut or otherwise.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[extrajoseph]

Hello Phil,

Well, I guess we agree to disagree, we all have different experience. BTW, I did not say kicking constitued 50% of our tools, I said our legs, which means the lower part of our body is just as useful as the upper part. Why fire on two when you can fire on four?

Some people prefer to fight with their hands, others prefer to work with their legs and their hands, attacking high and low at the same time. Personally I found it more effective to upset your opponent's root than trying to hit him all the time. I find dynamic balance is more effective than static balance, there is always more weight on one leg than the other when fighting, so low kicks can be as effective as jabbing, but that is just my opinion.

At least I am glad your father feels the same way as I do. I am sure he was as good looking as you are when he was your age.
:-)

JosephX

[premier]

str8blast

I just checked out your website. Good work =)

[Fu-Pow]

Joseph-


Personally I found it more effective to upset your opponent's root than trying to hit him all the time.

I couldn't agree more with you here, Joseph. The legs in general are way under utilized in this respect.

All Kung Fu is "in fighting" so you gotta use the weapon thats closest to your opponent. Sometimes it is your foot sometimes that it is your hand. Could be your shoulder or hip.

Secondly, if you can upset someone's root then the fight is pretty much over. Even if you only upset their root for a second they become helpless and you can fire off any attack you want. This is why I train Taiji also. They explicitly train strategies to upset your opponents root. Either by leading him into "nothingness" or bumping him off stance.

CLF has these strategies also but they are not obvious. It easy to focus on the striking techniques like Sao Choy or Chin Ji but your never gonna get to use them effectively unless you disrupt your opponents root first.

[RAIN]

thank you fu pow for yours answers . i'd apreciate your patience .

i got a special point of view about kickin in combat .
today is very normal see in tournaments and even street fighting people that use 50 % kicks and 50 % fists in a combat .
i mean , the most of us like kicks and use that kicks .
but if you see the patron of a form , you see a imaginary combat where the kicks are not used in 50 % .
and if you make hung gar , praying mantis , choy lay fut or every style you can find this truth in his forms .
what think about what the creators of the form was thinking when was puting few kicks in the forms ?
i know that wong fei hung was a terrible kicker , but tiger and crane form don't have so many kicks .
i know that mok gar kuen have a form called " the 108 kicks " , but i never see the form .

[straightblast5]

Hello Joseph X

You said:
"…our legs, which means the lower part of our body is just as useful as the upper part. Why fire on two when you can fire on four?"

My Reply:
I couldn't agree with you more. But if you re-read my posts regarding this subject again you'll see I have repeatedly stated that we don't neglect kicks (as they definitely have their place), we just don't over-emphasize kicking when it's not conducive to the situation. In general, my feet are usually preoccupied with keeping me standing, while my hands are almost always free to attack.

You said:
"Some people prefer to fight with their hands, others prefer to work with their legs and their hands, attacking high and low at the same time."

My Reply:
I prefer to fight with all four of my limbs, since I have them. But it just depends on the situation. Keep in mind that your feet are usually preoccupied with keeping you standing, and regardless of how much weight you choose to put on each leg, you’re probably more balanced standing on two.

Attacking high and low at the same time with punches and kicks looks good on paper, but in reality, it’s probably not immensely practical to do so. If you’re like me, your legs are most likely longer than your arms, and to simultaneously kick and punch your opponent (with any effect), you’d probably have to be pretty close to your opponent (unless you're folding your torso to compensate for the disparity between the length of your arms and you legs). If you’re in that close, it’s good idea to keep both feet on the ground (to have as strong of a base as possible), since you’re entering into clinching range and have a greater chance of loosing balance.

It’s funny that (in a previous post) you mentioned Ving Tsun as being more likely to place an emphasis on hand strikes than CLF, because from my humble experiences, that's not exactly true. While most Ving Tsun practitioners do have an affinity for attacking with the hands, the structure and stances in Ving Tsun are more consistently upright and square, thus more conducive to kicking. Choy Lay Fut structure, on the other hand, places more emphasis on stances that are lower and wider. Lower and wider stances are more conducive to maintaining stability while supporting "hand" strikes. Not to say that CLF does not include stances that are conducive to kicking, but (from my perspective) they number significantly less than those that favor hand attacks.

As with I everything that I do, I do my best to follow the maxim of practicing what I use and using what I practice. In the Choy Lay Fut method that I practice (the one that my father teaches), we place more emphasis on attacking with the “hands” while our legs act a stabilizing and delivery system. Doesn’t mean we neglect kicks. It all boils down to kicking when it’s appropriate, and not kicking when it’s not appropriate.

My original argument is directed more at those who do not really understand Choy Lay Fut’s body mechanics. When these individuals fight or spar, they tend to take on a “kickboxing-like” stance and end up doing a weird hybrid of sport TKD and boxing with a few Sau Chues thrown in. That’s what I mean, when I say over-emphasizing kicks (and sacrificing proper structure).

I believe that the concepts of particular methods, be it wrestling, Choy Lay Fut, Muay Thai, etc. were developed in relation to a prescribed structure. Though kicks are definitely not to be ignored, CLF for the most part takes on a structure where the legs act more as a stabilizing and delivery system than a tool for constant kicking. At least that’s the CLF method that I was taught to practice (and have found to work for me in sparring and fighting).

You said:
"Personally I found it more effective to upset your opponent's root than trying to hit him all the time."

My Reply:
Breaking an opponent’s structure can be done in a multitude of ways, depending on the methods you practice. We break our opponent’s structure primary with both strikes and relative positioning. For example, we sometimes employ what we call "invasive positioning" that utilizes a solid stance structure to over take an opponent's center of gravity (thus uprooting them) and breaking their posture (open them up to strikes). In essence, I am attacking my opponent with my whole body (legs included).

To me, merely kicking and punching constitute more as "trying to hit him all the time." than what I'm doing with dynamic positioning.

You said:
"I find dynamic balance is more effective than static balance, there is always more weight on one leg than the other when fighting, so low kicks can be as effective as jabbing, but that is just my opinion."

My Reply:
I definitely agree with dynamic balance over static balance. However, placing more weight on leg than the other solely depends on the position and stance you're currently employing, and no matter how much weight you place on either leg, you’ll probably be more likely to stay standing if both were on the ground. Low kicks are definitely an option, good or bad depending on the situation.

You said:
"At least I am glad your father feels the same way as I do."

My Reply:
I’m sure he would agree with you on the same points where I too agreed with you.

You said:
"I am sure he was as good looking as you are when he was your age."

My Reply:
You're darn right, brother! And he still is! ;)

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[straightblast5]

Originally posted by premier
str8blast

I just checked out your website. Good work =)


Thanks, I hope you enjoyed browsing through it!

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[extrajoseph]

Phil,

I just think over-emphaszing on hand techniques is just as misleading as over-emphasizing on kicking. The reverse also applied. It is like boxing and kickboxing, they don't reflect the full range of CLF (and WC!). I still say hand techniques and kicking are of equal importance like yin and yang, but after reading you last reply, I don't think we are that different in our points of view, we just see them from a relatively different angle. The comment about your father was a joke, did you not see the smiling face?

JosephX

[straightblast5]

Joseph X

You said:
"I just think over-emphaszing on hand techniques is just as misleading as over-emphasizing on kicking. The reverse also applied."

My Reply:
Agreed, but generally speaking, CLF places more emphasizes on hand techniques than kicks, as your feet should be pre-occupied most of the time with keeping you standing (and balanced) while giving you the means to deliver your techniques to your opponent.

You said:
"I still say hand techniques and kicking are of equal importance like yin and yang, but after reading you last reply, I don't think we are that different in our points of view, we just see them from a relatively different angle."

My Reply:
From reading your posts, I agree that our overall understanding of Choy Lay Fut is not that dissimilar. However, I feel any technique's level of importance is dictated solely by the situation that one finds himself in. When viewed from the perspective of relative context, all techniques can be rated as "equal".

When the body is viewed a whole unit rather than as segregated parts (of arms, legs, etc.), it becomes apparent that the legs are no less important than any other part of one’s anatomy. Generally speaking, however, CLF structure dictates different but equally important roles to the arms and legs when maximizing the whole body unit to accomplish the given goal of incapacitating an opponent. In accordance to the overall CLF structure (at least with the CLF that I’m most familiar with), kicks are important when appropriate, but greater emphasis is given to the “hand” techniques for the very reasons that I have stated previously. (note: when I say “hand” I mean the whole arm – shoulder, elbow, forearms, etc.)

This is just our perspective on what we practice. I might disagree with some of your viewpoints, but I’m happy to hear that your approaches work for you. Overall I think we agree on more than we disagree.

You said:
"The comment about your father was a joke, did you not see the smiling face?"

My Reply:
No sweat! Of course I knew you were joking, didn't you also see the smiley face at the end of my post? ;)

Take Care,
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[nospam]

straightblast5,

I couldn't agree with you more. I am a bak hsing CLF practitioner and we are 90% hands. But saying that, we do not neglect kicks. For us a kick is merely another step, sometimes as you step into your attack, a kick is warranted.

The added power having both feet planted when you are engaged and driving forward almost always negates your opponent's kick- pure dynamics of motion.

And your comment about how most adopt the 'kick-boxing' stance is wide-spread throughout the eastern martial arts. In my opinion it reveals poor training from poor understanding and faith in one's chosen style.

Martial artists have gotten very sloppy. Go to an Open tournament and you'll be hardpressed in decerning one style from any other.

In closing, I also believe too many martial artists do not know how to develop proper power in their kicks, except for when they are attacking a heavy bag. Once again, improper training and lack of knowledge in total body mechanics.

I'm not dissing those of you who train or believe in kicks as the end-all to be-all, nor am I disagreeing their effectiveness for a person who knows how and when to use kicks. I spent many years developing my kicking technique and strategy. It's part of becoming a well rounded martial artist. Nonetheless, give me 3 months to train someone and they will focus soley on stance/hip/arm movement. Period.

nospam.
:cool:

[premier]

It's often said that CLF suits a lot of people with different body types. Some people have naturally strong and flexible legs and I think in that case they should use their legs when ever possible.

The general idea in fighting is to strike to the open areas, right? and if there's no open areas, you create one. If the target is kickable and your position is right to do it, then you should kick it.


premier

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

JosephX & Straightblast5,

U both r correct & have good points. I havnt been training long but from what ive trained & seen. The kicks r usualy used to bridge the gap or break thru ur opponents defence to create a openning. CLF has a lot of unbeleivable flowing non stop combos punches, kicks, elbows & knees all mixed. Their also got really good footwork, i have heard few lineage of clf dont have ng lun ma(5 wheel horse) no offence but i think this is a real shame. I think this set should be a must 4 every clf beginner its a great set to build strong, mobil stances & fast footwork, changing from stance 2 stance. Also theres another set 4 footwork, attack & defence its learned by the 1st yr of intermediate(so by about 2 yrs) its called Sze Mourn Kiu Jo Sarng Ma. (4 doors bridging running the live horse) Sifu Lane Louie has written a article on his website www.clfma.com. I will b learning this in a few months hopefully. We do have all sorts of kicks high, low, sweeps,jump & flying but havnt seen many in forms even the single legged set sifu Chan taught in china. I seen it practiced at our kwoon, some kicks but mainly hand techs.(cool fighting set) Have any of u more advanced guys seen a form concentrated on kicks? I have read in Doc Fais book at the back its got all the forms & theres a set called "Continious Dual Kicking Form"(Yin Yeung Teui Lin Wan)

Anyway everyone has there own techs. they prefer. I am about 5 foot 8, 95kg & still growing so i like to keep kicks low 4 sweeping & breaking so i keep my balance. I rather mostly use my legs with footwork, low kicks but the occasional mid push kick to hit or bridge & break thru like i said b4 & mid roundehouse to break some ribs. But i guess some high kicks r alright when ur got ur enemy dazed or off balance.(like the front push kick with toes or ball of the foot 2 the throat or under the chin) Sifu Lane has got me with those.(ouch) But as i said i rather use quick changing footwork & go in hard with my weight behind my hands, low breaking kicks & destroy anything in my path.(always on my toes)

Peace 2 all CLF bros. & sisters,

Golden Armor

[chen zhen]

What are some of the fancier kicks like?:p Just curious

[premier]

I guess the 360 degrees spinning jumping inside crescent kick is the most common "fancy kick".

[straightblast5]

Nospam,

It's good to hear that you share my views!

Take Care,
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[RAIN]

nospam

i believe you 'd say something very true and very commom in kung fu and that can star another topic :

people don't believe in his style


is very common see people adopting kickboxing stances and kicks in combat . for what reason ?
fear of lost the fight ? no faith in his style ?
maybe today people have too much information and lost the goal of his style . maybe is most comfortable make high kicks all time . i don't no .
i got a interview of tat mau wong telling when he was young and was fighting in hong kong . he 'd say in the article :

" back in hong kong , everybody really uses their styles . not like here when everybody uses a boxing technique . in hong kong . you fight a hung gar guy , you know the hung speciallity or southern praying mantis , there arte some good fightings in this style . they are strong and their really used their style . or some white crane stylist , they are wide open . which doens't mean anithing because they get in and one strong punch will really knock you out . wing chun people uses a lot of elbows "

what you think ? you believe that today the most fighters really use their styles ?

[extrajoseph]

"I spent many years developing my kicking technique and strategy. It's part of becoming a well rounded martial artist. Nonetheless, give me 3 months to train someone and they will focus soley on stance/hip/arm movement. Period.”

Once again, Nospam hit the nail on the head. It is easier for beginners to work on the hand techniques before they can build up a solid foundation for further study. After that, we need to work on the kicking techniques (and other things) to become a well-rounded martial artist.

To the uninitiated, CLF looked as though we have a lot of hand techniques unique to the style, like gwa, sow, charp etc. and they think that is the style. They don’t realize CLF also has an arsenal of kicking and ground fighting techniques. Because they are inexperienced, they think we cannot do a lot of kicks and be stable at the same time, we cannot possibly hit and kick effectively together, we have to stay on two feet all the time to be safe and once we are down we are finished.

While this is true for the beginners, for a well-rounded and experienced CLF practitioner, mobility and stability can work magic together, kicking and hand techniques can roll together as natural as moving from point A to point B and we can still have a chance when we are down on the ground. It is just we don’t see these kinds of display much nowadays, so they think it is neither possible nor desirable in CLF.

Like fast food, they are concerned only with what comes fast and easy. They want to stay on their two legs and fight with their hands because it is easier and quicker to get some results. Training someone to fight in a tournament in 3 months is very different to training to become a martial artist for life. By de-emphasizing the importance of kicking for the beginners, we run the risk of giving a wrong impression of the true nature of our art.
By downplaying the usefulness of kicking, we run the risk of producing one-dimensional martial artists.

[straightblast5]

In the years that I’ve spent studying and teaching martial arts, I’ve always noticed that both beginners and the naive tend to kick and punch wildly to make up for their poor structure and body mechanics. It's only after practicing and understanding Choy Lay Fut's body mechanics and general fighting strategy (dynamic positioning) that they begin to realize the value of solid hand techniques supported by stable and mobile footwork.

That is why (as both Nospam and I have noticed), most beginner and inexperienced CLF practitioners take on a "pseudo-kickboxing" stance and execute a fighting strategy hardly similar to what is taught in the CLF curriculum (at least not the curriculum that I was taught and use). That's what I was referring to when I mentioned over-emphasizing kicks and sacrificing structure. This does NOT mean kicks are unimportant and cannot be seamlessly incorporated into our offensive strategy. It also does NOT mean that I cannot do a lot of kicks, it’s just not necessary to do so.

As I've stated before, it all just boils down to kick when it's appropriate and don’t kick when it's not appropriate. It just so happens that Choy Lay Fut focuses more on "hand" techniques than kicking, because the "feet" are often involved in the more important task of keeping you standing, stable, and mobile. There’s nothing “high-level” about this concept, just simple common sense.

Lots of beginners look to well roundedness to mean being an expert at every game and range, while neglecting the principles and concepts of their own chosen method. I have a pretty good knowledge of leverage (and stand up grappling) from CLF, but I would be lying if I said my ground-fighting arsenal was adequate enough (from CLF alone) to successful play the ground game and submit an experienced ground fighter. However, I never willingly fight by anyone else’s preferred strategy.

In a fight against anyone of any method, I will fight to maintain my own preferred offensive. If I do get taken down, I would utilize what I do know of leverage or any other concept in CLF applicable to get me back on my feet to fight again. If someone kicks me, I’ll use my stance and positioning to nullify their kicks, break their posture, and open them up to my own strikes (be it kicking or punching, depending on the situation).

To me, being well rounded means having applicable knowledge and understanding of different approaches and being able to deal with these approaches using my chosen method’s core principles and strategies. I really don’t believe that simply “knowing” how to punch, kick, and grapple necessarily equals being well rounded.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[bean curd]

an interesting thread going in good directions.

regarding novice playing CLF, and how they adapt to a " kick-boxing " situation, this also happens if every art, a trend of the times maybe? in the 60' and 70' especially in western society, the fall back was to present like a boxer, now they present like a kick-boxer, is this because they understand a kickboxing pose, but not a CLF POSTURE is it foriegn to them until they understand the art and skill ???

i have to say though it is not just in western society i have seen some pretty average fighting even many years in asian society, it comes down to understand of skill, and not falling back on primitive intent.

i have always believed you kick when you have to and punch when you need to, the hands and feet follow each other not only in step but in placement, so when an oppertunity arises the smarter player uses the skill best suited.


to my understanding ( some would say none hahaha ) both leg and hand must look/feel/connect/direct/control/stike/rebound with the same principles and in CLF the ging is tui and bin.

like the old cannon says " if you control your opponent with one hand you have the other free, to stand on two legs is practicle to only stand on one takes courage "

hope you don't mind my 2 cents worth

[extrajoseph]

In the years that I’ve spent studying and teaching martial arts, I’ve always noticed that both beginners and the naive tend to kick and punch wildly to make up for their poor structure and body mechanics. It's only after practicing and understanding Choy Lay Fut's body mechanics and general fighting strategy (dynamic positioning) that they begin to realize the value of solid hand techniques supported by stable and mobile footwork.

A: It is also only after practising and understanding CLF body mechanics and general fighting strategy that the beginners will begin to realize the value of solid and well placed kicks supported by stable and mobile footwork. So it takes time to be good at what you want to achieve. I am sure all your students know that.

That is why (as both Nospam and I had said), most beginner and inexperienced CLF practitioners take on a "pseudo-kickboxing" stance and execute a fighting strategy hardly similar to what is taught in the CLF curriculum (at least not the curriculum that I was taught and use). That's what I was referring to when I mentioned over-emphasizing kicks and sacrificing structure. This does NOT mean kicks are unimportant and cannot be seamlessly incorporated into our offensive strategy. It’s not that I cannot do a lot of kicks, it’s just that it’s not necessary to.

A: Instead of de-emphasing the importance of kicks why not work more on solid stance coupled with simple basic kicks to encourage the students to do better and at the same time improving their hand techniques. That would give them more confidence to work with their whole body instead of part of them at a time. Soon or later they will know the pain of a fancy or a sloppy kick when done untimely. As you know, we start kicking right from Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui and we do them from low stance, that is the basic teaching strategy built into the primary forms. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know we should not over-emphasizing kicks and sacrifice structure, saying it in colour ink would not make any difference to your common sense message. I can say the flip side, "we should not over-emphasizing hitting with the hands and sacrificing structure" (in colour if I know how to do it) to you and make you feel like you know nothing. Playing down the role of kicking early and working mostly with the hands will only give your beginner students a false sense of security. If you know how to do a lot of kicks well, then it is even more important that you should show them how to do them properly early. They know it will take time and they will kick wildly and look like a "psudo-kickboxer" at the beginning but that should not stop them from trying and you from teaching.

As I've stated before, it all just boils down to kick when it's appropriate and don’t kick when it's not appropriate. It just so happens that Choy Lay Fut focuses more on "hand" techniques than kicking, because the "feet" are often involved in the more important task of keeping you standing, stable, and mobile. There’s nothing “high-level” about this concept, just simple common sense.

A: Simple common sense also tells us to hit with our hands when it's appopriate and don't hit when it is not approprate. Do we have to say, "we should not over- emphasizing the importance of the hands" to get the message across? CLF like other TCMA, focuses more on hand techniques for the beginners then move onto other parts of the body when the students want to increase their level of skills. That is where the more advanced teaching comes in and that is what I mean by "higer level". My point is: you don't have to play down kicking at the beginning. If you talk down any part of the body in the beginning, then you will give the student an impression that you do not think highly of that part of the body. If you want them to learn the kicks later, say so. Tell them that we should not over- emphasizing the importance of kicking will give them an impression that it is not so important after all, and that is not true as you said so yourself.

Lots of beginners look to well roundedness to mean being an expert at every game and range, while neglecting the principles and concepts of their own chosen method. I have a pretty good knowledge of leverage (and stand up grappling) from CLF, but I would be lying if I said my ground-fighting arsenal was adequate enough (from CLF alone) to successful play the ground game and submit an experienced ground fighter. However, I never willingly fight by anyone else’s preferred strategy.

A: Through out this debate, I know it is not true but I cannot help but to feel you have a low opinion of beginner students. You may be surprised to know that they would have enough common sense to know that well roundedness does not mean being an expert at every game and range (nor do they want to be such an expert), and that a teacher does not have to be an expert at ground fighting before he can teach them how to play the ground game. They also know it will take time to be good at their chosen method and that you are just a human being like them even though you are their teacher. There is no need to tell them (and us) the bloody obvious in techno colour prints!

In a fight against anyone of any method, I will fight to maintain my own preferred offensive. If I do get taken down, I would utilize what I do know of leverage or any other concept in CLF applicable to get me back on my feet to fight again. If someone kicks me, I’ll use my stance and positioning to nullify their kicks, break their posture, and open them up to my own strikes (be it kicking or punching, depending on the situation).

A: That is wonderful, bravo to you! I just fight to survive any which way I can.

To me, being well rounded means having applicable knowledge and understanding of different approaches and being able to deal with these approaches using our chosen method’s core principles and strategies. It doesn’t mean simply “knowing” how to punch, kick, and grapple.

A: Then teach your students these wonderful core principles and strategies. I am just happy enough to know how to punch, kick and grapple well. That is enough for me (including this debate)!

JosephX

[straightblast5]

Joseph X

No need in getting upset. If you look back at the beginning of this discussion, you will see that I had merely stated a point, to which you then disagreed with, and I did my best through words to defend my position. I wasn't trying to convert you to my way of doing things, as I don't think you were trying to convert me. I was merely trying to state my ideas and opinions clearly while emphasizing my main points. On this medium of the internet forum, bold and colored text were some of the ways which I thought were appropriate to emphasize my points. If the bold type and coloring offended you, I apologize.

Like I said in my first or second response to you in this thread, I'm glad you believe in what you do and I'm glad it works for you.

By the way, I do not think lowly of beginners or anybody else, I just feel there are those who are naïve and misinformed. I apologize if I came off as insulting to beginners.

Try to relax, you might be right and I might be wrong on this point, but you’re not really proving your point any by being all upset. Besides, is being right or wrong really the issue here? I thought we were all here just to share ideas and to occasionally challenge each other’s theories to maybe come up with a better one.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martail Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[extrajoseph]

Beancurd,

One of the reasons why there are so many average fights is because some teachers for commercial reasons get their students to fight in tournaments too early. Instead of training them in the basic skills for a number of years to produce a solid foundation of footwork, kicks and punches, they talked about fighting strategies and core principles and get the students to produce quick results by concentrating on one aspect of the art. The result is a three-months specialist with a half dozen of boxing or kick boxing techniques whose aim is to stay upright at all cost to last the rounds. At least they will have a chance to win on points and bring home the trophies.

They have these progressive learning programs where the students can get through a level every 2-3 months and a colour sash every 9-12 months to give them a false sense of progress. It is how they look and how they talk that counts and anything that is too difficult and takes time to perfect they will de-emphasis or avoid. They took on the trappings of the most popular martial arts and dress their progressive curriculum in the traditional names. They have wonderful websites and present themselves as good looking and highly qualified professional trainers. It is the case of selling the same chocolate wrappers with nothing resembling chocolates in them.

I agree with you, this not only happening in the west, but it happens in China (you should check out the latest Shaolin Temple schools) and other parts of SE Asia as well. Sadly, no ones wants to do it the hard way any more.

JosephX

[straightblast5]

JosephX,

If the content in your post to beancurd was directed at me and my family's organization, than I am sad to see that's the way you feel. I'm sorry if I offended you with my attempts to defend my point of view, but I don't think insulting me or my family's organization is a good way to promote brotherhood within our CLF community.

Neither my father nor myself teach martial arts for a living, we just try to do the best we can to honor those who were kind enough to offer us knowledge. The progression system that we are employing is new, in place primarily because our student base has grown and we wished to have a more concrete syllabus for newcomers to follow. If you have a better idea on how to handle this problem, I wish you would suggest one instead of insulting our methods and my family's organization.

I can't say that I'm not a little disappointed in the way this has gone, but I wish you the best of luck in what you do. However, I ask with all sincerity, that you do not insult my family simply because you were upset over the tone of our debate. If you have any concerns I welcome you contact me personally. Thank you.

Take Care,

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

JosephX,

That is unfortunantely very true, to many teachers r selling out & r to scared to teach the old school way. Because they know 60 to 70% maybe more of students r to lazy, impatient & instead of cocentrating on the basics & what there on they r thinking about the next set & getting that shiny sash. The teachers know if they hold them back or dont show them flashy moves they will leave & take their $$$'s with them. So most sifus let their students pass, as long as they can remember a form. They dont even show them the applications & what there 4. Thats why KF's got a bad name to other m artists. Whats the saying flowery fists, no wonder.
If i was a teacher i would rather teach from my backyard or the local park & have 2, 3 dedicated students rather than have 20, 30 ****ty students & a big school. (****ty students, ****ty teacher)

Anyway have any of u guys heard of a clf jong called the Leg Dummy -Geuk Jong? if so whats it look like & it focus on?

Also the hand/leg set called Continuous Dual Kicking Form- Yin Yeung Teui Lin Wan?

[Jimbo]

A lot of CLF and, really, TCMA people in general, seem to be fighting more with kickboxing because in their schools a lot of them are simply being taught kickboxing in addition to their kung fu. Not just in America, but it seems like almost everywhere a popular trend is to do the forms, then spar like TKD, Muay Thai, or kickboxing. A CLF brother if mine was fighting in a major kung fu tournament and when he sat down after winning a bout, another CLF guy told him, "You're actually using the Choy Lee Fut. I do Choy Lee Fut, too." Then my school brother asked him, "So why don't you use it?" The other guy said, "We practice CLF buy we train to use Muay Thai because we can learn to use it faster and more easily." I think that says everything about why some schools don't take the time.

I will say that when you're at a distance it really isn't necessary to hold a particular low stance when mobility is the key. Although bouncing around like Muhammad Ali, IMO, would have a negative effect. Shifting is quicker, smoother, and more stable for someone using kung fu principles.

Kicks are necessary, as are hands. You might say, "Don't punch with a boxer, don't kick with a kicker." If you only use hands and come up against a hand specialist that can frustrate your own hand skills, you need legs as a strong backup to break up his concentration and base. Just as you wouldn't really want to stand at long range trading kicks with a top-notch "superkicker," but use your bridging the gap, hands, leg checks/low kicks, etc., to your advantage.

Jim

[nospam]

You do know that everyone is for the greatest part agreeing with one another.

A tad heavy on somantics at this pont, which is nice to hear, as we are now talking specifics of our respective styles..lineages..and personal preferences and experiences. This is how learning can occur through sharing.

If you only use hands and come up against a hand specialist that can frustrate your own hand skills, you need legs as a strong backup to break up his concentration and base.

A good hand stylist will not allow kicks to frustrate his/her skill :)

Please, take no affront. I'm serious when I say this.

At one tournament I was at, a fellow stylist who was a student of my teacher's gung fu brother was fighting a Hapkido. Our style is quite aggressive and negates 95% of kicks. The Hapkido was very quickk and capable and did manage to move with my fellow stylist quite well by moving backwards and utilizing jumping, spinning crescent kicks. That is the most impressed I have ever been from a 'kicker' stylist. The problem for the Hapkido is that the power of his kicks are predetermined at a certain distance. Plus he was on one leg while my fellow stylist was on two and dogg'n him relentlessly. Guess who had the upper leg..uhm..hand.

This is no flame on Hapkido, merely an example- of whcih I'm sure we all have plenty to illustrate our various points. I would like to comment that I have 100% faith in my style and in most practitioners in my style, from 3rd month novice to beyond. It's really that good ;) hahaha

Seriously. it gets down to the skill level of the MAist.

Kickers can kick well as they spend their time learning that style. I see the problem as being one of strategy vs ability. And that speaks towards any and all styles. A well timed spinning back kick will stop dead an aggressor in his tracks. For me, the spinning back (whether jumping or fromt he grnd) kick is an amzing tool (on par with the upper cut or short arm pau choi), if it is used when it should be used. And that is the problem I see with kicks. They are taught to be thrown too often and indescriminately. A well trained (including strategy) MAist is just that, a well trained MAist- no matter the style.

The debate is in your court.

nospam.
:cool:

[premier]

Exactly. Spinning back kick is the shiznit! When properly set up of course. Especially if you combine it with dot choy (spinning backfist).


premier

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by straightblast5
JosephX,

If the content in your post to beancurd was directed at me and my family's organization, than I am sad to see that's the way you feel. I'm sorry if I offended you with my attempts to defend my point of view, but I don't think insulting me or my family's organization is a good way to promote brotherhood within our CLF community.

Neither my father nor myself teach martial arts for a living, we just try to do the best we can to honor those who were kind enough to offer us knowledge. The progression system that we are employing is new, in place primarily because our student base has grown and we wished to have a more concrete syllabus for newcomers to follow. If you have a better idea on how to handle this problem, I wish you would suggest one instead of insulting our methods and my family's organization.

I can't say that I'm not a little disappointed in the way this has gone, but I wish you the best of luck in what you do. However, I ask with all sincerity, that you do not insult my family simply because you were upset over the tone of our debate. If you have any concerns I welcome you contact me personally. Thank you.

Take Care,

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)


Phil,

I am surprised that you are so egocentric and have such low self-esteem of yourself and your father to think I am talking about you!

Sorry my friend, but the world do not evolve just around you and I was not thinking of you or your family organisation at all. I was just talking to beancurd about the reasons for the general sad decline in the standard of CMA in the world these days.

I keep trying to get out of this debate because we are wasting our time talking about the little differences between us. Did you not hear that I said I have enough? Why keep dragging me back into it with your silly comments like this one? What can I say? If you want me to say sorry then I will, for the sake of peace, for something I have not done.

I hope the next time I turn on the computer you will have moved onto something more interesting other than yourself and I say this not with anger but as an older brother giving you a piece of advice. There is no need for me to contact you privately, it will only feul your ego, I am afraid.

You take care of yourself too.

JosephX

[premier]

...having read Phil's website I also thought you were talking about his father's school. Well. I guess it was just a sheer coincidence.

Anyway. You're both very knowledgeable people. It's a shame you're willing to argue about something like this and ever worse, get personal. You were actually having very interesting conversation there for a while.



premier

[extrajoseph]

Premier,

Yes, it is none of your business, but if you want to know I was thinking of other much bigger and more commercially successful schools and they are not just CLF and WC schools. What I said was a general profile of a commercial set up these days – give the students what they want, keep it simple and easy, change the program to suit whatever is popular at the time, talk and look professional, websites and promotions, give them trophies and sashes and levels so they will keep coming back and pay their fees. I don’t blame these guys, they have to eat and pay the rents like the rest of us.

Yes, it is a shame we argue like that. I have no intention of carrying on and get personal. But **** happens.

As nospam said it earlier: “You do know that everyone is for the greatest part agreeing with one another”. Shall we leave at that?

JosephX

[premier]

Joseph

OK. I believe you. Sorry about the intervention.


premier

[RAIN]

phil

i hope this discussion don't take away from this forum , your opinions are always great for me and give a lot of knoledge .


extrajoseph

i respct you a lot , you know a lot of things about choy lay fut and hard trainning , but maybe you was too much extremist in your answers . maybe you are right and the actual system sucks ,. but inside all this merchandasing and promotions there is a lot of people that are beneficied . i'd learn forms of choy lay fut from videos and i know well that this is not the way , but thanks those videos i'd making connected whit a great system . i am planning travel to florida next year for correct that forms . i know this is not the better way , but i live in a country without chinese masters . so , this is my better option . and that become with this promotion system you atttacked . and the prize in tournaments and sashes , maybe in the old days people only fight for revolution but today that colour sahes can really help kids with problems . i'd see this in my school .
maybe you know a lot of things , but if you attack a system , you attack also the people inside the system . and this not help
maybe youy think this is not my business , but i am a part of this open forum and because i don't attacking you , i tell you only , that even when you can be right in your posture , you have to be careful to not attack others points of view .

you are a great treasure for ous in this forum . thas is my opinion . i don't want you think i am attackin you . is only my point of view .

[Jimbo]

Nospam:
No offense taken. You make very good points regarding practicality of hands to kicks. In fact, I myself like more hands than kicks. The thing is, when most people think of using their legs as weapons, the first thing to come to mind is a TKD person throwing multiple and spinning long-range kicks. CLF has some kicks under such description, but kicks and leg techniques also include ankle hooks, leg sweeps (not necessarily "iron broom," but sweeps in conjunction with hands/strikes), leg checks, oblique crossover kicks to the legs, stomps/presses onto the opponent's foot, and etc. Such more subtle leg skills work in conjunction with the hands. Also some can be disguised as stepping.

Regardless, like virtually all TCMA systems, CLF emphasizes a higher ratio of hand skills than kicking techniques.
Jim

[bean curd]

ok, for the love of me i have just come back to this thread and now it has all gone to waste, if my two cents has caused this then i want it back ;-).

phil i have read xtrajosephs reply to me and unless there is something "quiet " between you two, i don't and cannot see where your retort to him as come from.

i will make this clear, sometime ago joseph and i had words on something that is of no importance here, a differing of opinion, however that being said, we have spoken since and it has been comfortable.

i would say to some extent we( joseph and i ) are from similiar age and i mean skill based not personal but if anyone asks i am the younger hahaha.

joseph i see has read between the line on what i was hinting too and has come in on this, i see his reply as no afront to your family or skill, what he has said is very true and he spoke more words than i intended to do on the matter of skill deterioration, as a whole.

i came into this thread because of what was being said, i had enjoyed it and thought i would contribute and continue to enjoy, now sadly this has like many just gone to the rubbish heap.

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

I agree with beancurd, i didnt think josephs post was intended towards phil & his family. I think its just a missunderstanding, try to put it behind u guys.

Peace out

[premier]

Where do you live in Argentina? Is this place far from you:

Sifu German Bermundez
Sevilla 3794
Villa Espana (1886)
Buenos Aries
Argentina

Check out http://webs.sinectis.com.ar/amk/index.html
They seem to have schools in other cities too.


premier

[nospam]

Jimbo,

I hear ya and up ya a dime :)

Couldn't agree more on the other 'types' of kicks. Sometimes I wonder how the heck my shin got planted into the groin of my sparring partner.

I've actually started to work more on slipping my right knee into my opponent. Almost always causes a whole body jerk forward and downward..to my delight!

Train hard and smart, my Momma always said.

nospam.
:cool:

[Sow Choy]

Hello everyone,

Rain,

Again I commend you on your efforts to learn real Chinese Martial Art. And you always show true Martial virtue and respect. Some thing we all need to do. My opinion, if anyone cares, is use what works, and always protect your students from your own opinions. That is the difference I believe to be with with traditional and contemporary styles. Of course we are human and will change things to suit us better, but never change the building blocks that got us here and keep them for future generations.

Why argue kicks over punches? Will we argue our favorite colors next? Joking

You all are right, and I enjoy everyones posts. But I like to think of us all on the same team. It saddens me to see CLF brothers becoming negative, we have seen it many times before. It just gets us nowhere.

So let us follow the basic rule of most parents:

If you have nothing nice to say, do not say anything at all.

Believe me, I bite my tongue alot reading many posts on this forum realizing it would waste my time rather than spend my time arguing for the sake of only arguing. Some of you have shared your info with us, and I thank you for that. Wheter it's different then what I learn doesn't matter, I always try and stay open minded and learn.

Too many people get overworked with these debates, but again if that is what floats your boat go ahead, let's just be nice.

Peace to you all.

CHOY LAY FUT!!!

Joe

[RAIN]

i want to apologize myself with you all , if i'd was so negative in my reply . normally i write in spanish and is very hard to me write in english . many times i want to give a deep opinion but i can't because my limited knoledge of english .
joe is right , if there is nothing nice to say is better shut up .
i 'l going to try to learn from the phil's humility and patience .

[Sow Choy]

Rain,

No necessito por tu hablar lo siento. Todo tiempo tu estas muy simpatico y hablar con respecto. Lo siento, mi espanol estas muy mal, yo soy Italiano Americano y antes yo tengo novia de Colombia, muy importante hablar espanol en Florida Estado Unidos. Aqui tenemos mucho Latinos, luego quando tu ven qui, estamos muy feliz.

Wow, that was hard, I do not speak Spanish very well.


Joe

[RAIN]

jaja ja you really surprise me !!!!!!!!!!!

i'd always was see you like a serious guy and then you show your joking side . very well your spanish . but you write the orations like in english and the spanish is more complicated . american english is more compact and more easy to learn .
i am too italian descendent . from sicilia or calabria , i believe .
and i am dating with a colombian girl right now .
sorry for you sow choy . when you prove the taste of a latin girl you can't forget her in all your life .
american girls are more delicated and are ever a fantasy , but the latin girls have the salsa in their veins . here in argentina our traditional music is the tango . girls are melancolic and festive at same time . ( a dangerous combination ) . so , dear choy lay fut brother take my advice :

get away from argentina girls or you can sorry later .

[straightblast5]

Rain,

Thank you for your kind words. You do not have to learn humility or patience from me as you display those qualities quite well on your own. I have found all of your posts respectful and am happy to hear of your devotion to learning the martial arts.

Handsome Joe,

As for you, I'll be seeing you in Hong Kong...;) BTW, you’ll have to introduce me to some Latin girls next time I’m in Florida!


Take Care,
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[extrajoseph]

Hi Phil,

I am glad you bounce back, no hard feelings, Brother.

Kung Hei Fat Choy!

JosephX

[JAZA]

Sow Choy, your spanish is as good as my english :)

[Sow Choy]

Hey Guys,

Believe it or not, I speak about 60-70% Cantonese, I surprise myself sometimes. But typing is hard, see if some of you understand this:

Ngaw ho jung yi hoi Jung Gwok, Jung Gwok yow ho doh leng loi. Siu Lum Ji yow ho doh loi jye, ngaw lam ho doh war serng jung yi wan tung loi jye, ming mm ming bak? Dui mm ji, Ngaw Jung man hai ma ma day, Ngaw gong siu. Gong hay Fat Choy.

Choy Lay Fut (Lam Kuen Bak Toi)!!!!

Joe

[JAZA]

Kung Hei Fat Choy

[CLFNole]

Lei dei ho ham sup jai. LOL

Peace.