Ques. for Sam Wiley

[taijiquan_student]

Hey, Sam.

I'm in the middle of practice right now, and I just noticed my fingertips are sweating a bunch. I'm posting this because I remember reading in something of Erle's that it is a good sign if you really sweat from your fingertips, although I can't remember where it was. He was talking about during the form, but right now I'm just doing basics and single movements. Do you know anything about this or what it means?

Thanks a lot.

[Sam Wiley]

Yes, the hands sweating is a good sign. Generally, only my palms and fingertips sweat, though there are some days when my entire hands will literally drip with sweat.

What this means is that your qi is flowing freely right down to your peripherals, the tips of your fingers and toes.

It doesn't really apply to only the form. If I just think about practicing, and my hands will start to perspire.

You are doing well.

Check out this page from Erle's site (http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/vital.htm) It lists some of the signs that tell you that you are progressing well.

[red_fists]

My Sifu sez the same thign as Sam.,

She even walks through the class and checks Palms after Qi-Gong and Form training.

They should even sweat at 2 Degrees centi. when you train outside.

[brassmonkey]

Ahhhh very good grasshopper the next level will be when the air around you becomes heavy and mist like when you practice the form.

[Repulsive Monkey]

If the hands, feet , and face are reddened and have heat sensations, especially in the afternoon or evenings in general then this occurence is most certainly a Yin deficiency condition, and you ought to seek medical help from a Chinese doctor. Sweating can be a good sign of internal pathogens leaving the body via mobilisttion of Qi cultivation. However all thing sin equal balance is the key, if there is too much sewating then this may not be too good.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by brassmonkey
Ahhhh very good grasshopper the next level will be when the air around you becomes heavy and mist like when you practice the form.

Your point being?? Ohh, enlightened one.

Strange all the TCC-Guys I met so far said that sweaty palms is a good sign.

But than there are always People that experience the opposite to everybody else.

sighs.

Or maybe you are just another dumb troll trying to spoil the party.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Speaking of sweaty palms... I was invited to a seminar hosted by world famous qigong master Zhang Yuan Ming. He had us stand relaxed and came around and grabbed the ligament under our armpit and pulled it till it made several popping noises almost like that of a chiropractic adjustment I also felt a shock run down the length of my arm and instantly my palms sweated to the point of dripping. He said he was opening the arm channel. Now I have seen a lot in my life as a matial artist but have never experienced that ever. Sam could you ask earle about that and get his reaction? I am very curious to understand fully. After that I asked him to open my legs but he said I wouldnt be able to walk for a day or so.

Do this first, check out his webiste www.Qigongmaster.com

[Kaitain(UK)]

I'd be worried about someone asking me to open their legs :P

[EARTH DRAGON]

Ha Ha maybe I worded that wrong. I meant open the channels in my legs.. anywho get your mind out of the gutter Mr. Kaitian ..
...LOL

[Sam Wiley]

Earth Dragon,
According to Erle, there are several "keys" a teacher gives students to help unlock the internal. They range from spoken keys to touch to watching the master practice. I don't know what most of them are, and that's probably a good thing, but I'll bet this is one version of the practice. I'll email him and ask him about the armpit thing today for you.

Dude, this guy's supposed to be descended from Chang San-feng? Interesting. What are his methods like? Are they similar to other systems of qigong and internal Gung Fu, or are they radically different?

[taijiquan_student]

That would be pretty d a m n cool if Zhang San Feng was your ancestor. It's too bad he didn't really invent Taijiquan. (I hope that doesn't start a huge flame.:D )

[Sam Wiley]

Well, I just heard back from Erle. He said that pulling the tendons like that was purely physical and has nothing to do with qi. I have no idea what the guy's reason for doing it would be, then. But then again, he claims to be descended from Chang San-feng. Anyway, the whole thing is bizarre.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“Zhang San Feng was your ancestor. It's too bad he didn't really invent Taijiquan”

Just wondering when people make broad claims what ever they are, what are the qualifiers?

Why should any one believe one way or the other when things are said as matter of fact or as a truth known and accepted by all.

Are you stating this as fact or just something that you believe to be true?

[taijiquan_student]

I don't believe Zhang San Feng invented taiji. The whole reason that myth was created is that students of taiji or teachers back in the old days wanted to have a fantastic backround for the art. This is something the chinese do a lot, it is not unusual people would claim taiji is from Zhang San Feng. Unlike westerners, who tend to think 'new and improved is better', the chinese tend to be more along the lines of 'older, tried and true is better'.

There is no evidence to suggest that Zhang had anything at all to do with taiji or martial arts. He was a daoist, and on his gravestone he is a daoist immortal (or something of that nature), not the originator of taijior a martial artist.

Now... Several postures from the old Chen family forms are EXACTLY like those in General Qi Ji Guan's boxing manual. Everything points to the Chens being the main originators, and other sources such as General Qi before them, while nothing points to Zhang San Feng (he existed, of course, just he had nothing to do with taiji).

So, while yes, this is just my opinion, I belive it is true because of the evidence. If anyone who claims that Zhang San Feng did in fact invent taijiquan I would be VERY happy if they would send it to me, or post it on the board. But as of yet, nothing other than "my teacher said his teacher told him" sort of things have pointed to it.


But that's just my opinion.:D ;)

[RAF]

We've been through this a thousand times. Henning has written the best assessment of the Zhang San Feng mythology using historical records to cast subatantial doubt as to whether he even existed. He most clearly shows how it was popular for the Chinese culture at that time to associate mythical gods and daoists to forms or systems in order to inflate their importance.

When people make a claim like Zhang San Feng was the founder of my qi gong, the burden of proof lies with them to substantiate the claim. Oral history isn't enough.

Although there are competing explanations for the founding of taiji, all is possible but what we deal with is that which is probable.

The best explanation is still that which was posted by taiji_student.

But I guess you can believe in anything you want.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Thanks, that was a very good way to present a viewpoint.

My main point was that it seems we some how or maybe it’s just my perception that many things are posted with out much in the way of presenting a backdrop for the view point other then, it is so.

We seem to have some very talented people here, I for one would like a little more info on how or why a certain viewpoint is presented.

yours was very interesting and informative, thanks. :)

[TaiChiBob]

greetings, Fellow Travelers..
Most items i share, i share based on my own personal experience. To assert that "i know", for me at least, must be born of direct personal experience. Even then, the words are abstractions. The fervor with which we hold to our beliefs does not confer validity upon that belief. Tai Chi has, by my direct experience, enhanced my life profoundly, this i know. Who created it, the lineage of my Sifu, etc.. is interesting, but not essential to the experience itself.. is my "style" pure? Who knows! But, in competition it has been judged favorably, in practical application it has proved superior to the methods employed by the adversaries.. simply put, it works for me.. Tai Chi is a gift we give ourselves (too often, i see people "looking a gift horse in the mouth").
As we mangle our styles by bickering over who's right/wrong we miss the golden opportunity to find the commonalities, the pragmatic virtues and to continue to be the life force that animates and evolves this ancient art. If we strive to maintain the strict purity of the original style(s), we only suffocate it's living evolution. Please don't misunderstand me, i do not suggest that we simply modify a style to suit our personal experiences.. rather, that through forums like this we share experiences, test their virtues, and hopefully broaden our horizons. It took hundreds even thousands of years for Tai chi to reach us in its present condition, i don't expect it to radically evolve today, but given time and sincere efforts of the players it is not unreasonable to expect someday that there may be quite valid "American Tai Chi".
YIKES, i just read back and apologize for my wordiness.. but, since my typing skills are so poor/slow i really hate to waste these words.. so, here they are...
be well, be compassionate, and be sincere (the rest will take care of itself).

[taijiquan_student]

How do you define "American Taichi"?

[EARTH DRAGON]

My hat goes off to you and I bow at your wise words. I have read some great posts in my day but yours ranks in the top "10"

I think the old "real" masters would roll over in thier grave if they ever knew that the gift of practicing tai chi would be scrutinized and judged by people communicating over computers through phone lines while attending their weekly classes for a couple years and practicing a few times a week and then attempting to pretend they have the slightest bit of true understanding about it!

Bravo BOB!!!!!!!!!

[Zantesuken]

HEY I PRACTISED SINCE I WAS NINE CONSISTENTLY! DOn't stereotype EVERYONE! and one day AMerican Tai Chi will never be as good as Tai Chi in Asian countries such as china, taiwan, etc. This is not simply because China is obviously better(:p) but asia is also better in every asian martial art compared to the rest of the world. For example U.S. wushu is nowhere near the level of asia. That's cause in Asia people practise EVERYDAY. and i don't mean wake up at 7 goto work at 8 or 9 and come home at 5 and practise for a couple of hours.

THey wake up at 6 practise eat lunch practise eat dinner practise and goto sleep and do the routine. Like for the china wushu team none of them goto school. they get paid to train and stuff so obviously their kung fu drastically improves a LOT faster than it would cause here everyone has school/work, etc but who knows maybe someone will achieve a high level.

It's not like it's not impossible. Personally I feel that your sifu can teach you the entire art without you understanding it. You should study things like the Tao Te Ching and think hard and just practise everyday. when you're at a bus stop. stand in standing meditation but not w/ the hands up w/ it down by ur sides in the other posture i forget the name.

chan san feng didn't have someone teach him tai chi. he forged it out from hard work by first learning hard styles and then made it soft. people who learn tai chi today have the luxury of learning the soft style right away so if you truly wish to achieve a high level. think abou tit. go loook in nature experiment. keep going going oing and one day you'll stop for a break and you'll realize you're skill has increased many fold!

I sometimes read Sam Wiley's posts about Erle and it's always like he's saying Erle's the best there is but thena gain Erle's only the best there is that Sam knows. I'm not saying that chris mkiankjak guy and sam are lying but think about it like this:

"If you climb the tallest mountain you see and reach the summit. Look to the left and right there will be another mountain twice as tall. If you climb that you'll find another mountain three times as tall."
moral is that never admit to your greatness or worry about anyone else's feats. do that and you get bogged down and you're kung fu stops progressing. well boyz in the hood is back from commercials so gotta go. bye bye

[vingtsunstudent]

" and one day AMerican Tai Chi will never be as good as Tai Chi in Asian countries such as china, taiwan, etc. This is not simply because China is obviously better() but asia is also better in every asian martial art compared to the rest of the world. "

it said just earlier that you had practiced since you were 9, well when you grow up & reach all of 10, you might wake up to yourself & realise what a load of dribble that was.
i don't think that you gripping your doodle & standing there looking foolish like you must is in anyway practicing a stance that will develop any sort of martial value or virtue.
GROW UP FOOL.
vts

[Crimson Phoenix]

Ahheeemmm...well, we all thought the japanese were invincible in karate until in France they developped a federal organization and structures to train the guys well, and now Japan is not the mandatory number one anymore...
It's just a matter of training, if any country in the world trains hard and long and elaborates adequate structures and training, they can be number one...
It raises the question of gong fu federations though...I never seen people agree anywhere in the world when it comes to creating a decent federation, and the PRC wushu vs trad wushu gap doesn't make it easier...

[brassmonkey]

"AMerican Tai Chi will never be as good as Tai Chi in Asian countries such as china, taiwan, etc. This is not simply because China is obviously better() but asia is also better in every asian martial art compared to the rest of the world. For example U.S. wushu is nowhere near the level of asia. That's cause in Asia people practise EVERYDAY. and i don't mean wake up at 7 goto work at 8 or 9 and come home at 5 and practise for a couple of hours. "

Someone should remind Japan theyre supposed to be #1 in Olympic Judo and also remind China they are supposed to be #1 in Sanshou.

[TaiChiBob]

Who is this guy, TaiChiBob?.. oops, wait that's me.. sorry guys, i didn't mean to stir up so much anxiety.. i don't recall saying that "American Tai Chi" would surpass all others.. only that it is not unreasonable to expect that there may someday be a valid style developed in this country. Of course the foundations are forged in China, but to limit valid contributions by other races is somehow contrary to the basic Taoist philosophy behind this art. "Study nature", yet, the reply would suggest that nature is only Asian. For my own peace of mind i refuse to set boundaries by culture, race or sterotyping a whole country's ethic values.
Certainly there are Americans as well as any other country's people that could acheive the same levels of awareness and discipline as the Chinese originators of Tai Chi. I suppose that my original statement was intended to distract people from their self-sacrificng dedication to a style or teacher and point them back toward the art itself. I sincerely hope i never impose such personal predjudices as to limit the infinite possibilities afforded us by such a gracious universe. Someday.. maybe.. a man or woman might come down from seclusion in a high-rise rent-controlled appartment and offer the world a newly evolved set of movements and philosophical perspectives that add even more value to our already cherished Tai Chi.. let's not blind ourselves to the possibilities.

[Zantesuken]

i never said that they couldn't but i said it would be unlikely because you wouldn't have as much time to train. and yeah gripping your doodle does improve your tai chi! it's chi kung

[Zantesuken]

hate doing 2o posts in one but meh

it's not a load of dribble. i guess i shouldn't say never but more like it's unlikely that someone will rise to a very high level because of different social and societal systems.

hey and france is in eurASIA so hah.

standing meditation, meditation, tai chi from. it's also meditation so you are still practising to focus energy and such.

i don't set cultural boundaries for myself even though the comments after i reread them sound a little biased. For japanese karate i don't know because i don't really follow it but for sanshou i know that china's not number 1. i guess it's a different story cause sanshou doesn't necesarily mean asian ma. i went to a competition and other guys were trying to use wrestling and all this other stuff.

and for tai chi bob i don't know how you interpreted my study nature comment but i mean stuff a rubber ball in water. practical stuff. and about people gaining the same awareness as the originators of tai chi would be really really rare. just my opinion though. i see many people disagree but then again that's just their bias maybe because they don't like it cause it would mean that they wouldn't be very good but doesn't matter. tai chi is only picking up in north america so we'll see

[Internal Boxer]

Zantesuken

What Colour is the sky in your world???
;)

[Crimson Phoenix]

Zante, what you say about different societies and societal systems also applies to modern China...it is more than likely, and many experts claim it already, that already in China the level of back in the days cannot be achieved because the society has changed...it is more a matter of ancient chinese society vs modern economic societies than a matter of China vs non chinese when it comes to refinement of CMAs

And if you want to play with words, I'd have to say that France is more in "Eur" than in "Asia"...isn't it?? :p

[Zantesuken]

it is but in all it's Eurasia! **** those politcally correct!

[Zantesuken]

basically i'm saying that generally people in china and places start ma very early and they stick with one ma so they generally get very good.
people in north america start at around 12-30 and take longer to get it. it's not like you won't be able to amount skill and don't give me examples like Erle Montigue.

he has skill because he's trained since 1968. 34 years of Tai Chi will definately amount to something.

i didn't try to be biased but somehow my posts always get bad attention

[Internal Boxer]

Yes Europe is part of Asia just like Brazil is part of Canada:D :D :D

[red_fists]

Hey.

I am looking forward to Japan and China joining the EU.

I can than enter those Countries and work there on my EU-Passport and don't need those pesky Visas anymore.

And , yeah, I will thumb my nose to all those pesky US MA that can't get in.

Yeah, make Europe part of Asia or viceversa.

Bad side is we will also get Israel and a few other nasty Countries.

But, heck, the war against Terrorism than will be US vs EU (aka rest of the World).

Hehehehe!
P.S.: Just kidding.

[red_fists]

‚y‚�‚Ž‚…‚“‚•‚‹‚…‚Ž�D

‚p‚•‚…‚“‚”‚‰‚�‚Ž�F
‚g‚�‚–‚… you been to China and Japan??

If China is anywhere close to Japan, most of the People there will think that MA is something out of History Books or pure Sports.
Some Masters already said that in the future the natives will have to look overseas for quality MA from their own Country.

Yes, many Years back MA was part of the School Curriculum, but not anymore.
Given way to Soccer, baseball and other Sports.

MA scene is Japan is bad with plenty of Schools closing due to lack of Students.

Reality in Japan is that Teens do a bit of MA, but stop as soon as they enter University and/or Careers.

Some Pensioners and middle-aged learn MA mostly for Health benefit or to recover from a phsyical collapse due to stress.

Sad, but that is the rality. and hence the low level of Asian Competitiors in the international Competitions.

Seeya.

[Zantesuken]

****it! international competitors china, japan that whole area is pretty good. i think japan got like 3rd place in tai chi for an international competition. also vietnam and thai land are VERY GOOD. especially vietnam's basics. if you want videos of china wushu people goto

www.furiousg.com

that place is awesome! but you can only dl one file at a time!