pak mei double butterfly swords

[fiercest tiger]

Has anyone learnt these, if so what do you think of the form?

where did it come from? clc, futsan, fukien?

shaolin master,
you dont need to reply as u have this set!

[EAZ]

Have not learnt it but have heard of it.

[EAZ]

Is there not a long sword form in Pei Mei?

Is there a traditional Pei Mei weapon? (like double butterfly for Wing CHun?)

[TenTigers]

Some Bak Mei schools teach double gen (sais) in place of Butterfly Knives, applications I suppose are similar, though. It's the concept that counts, everything in your hands will follow these principles, which reinforce the empty hand techniques. I heard that some schools also teach iron crutch (tonfas) any input?

[EAZ]

already been a thread on this.

Our school has it: double tonfas.

[Yum Cha]

I can't speak for other lineages, but we have a medium stick to start, and an advanced long pole form which is supposed to be special. Something like the half past six fishing pole....

Sifu also taught me a double sword (sheng do) pattern that is not commonly seen, but it may come from that vast number of "generic" traditional weapons forms. I think our single do form is likewise, "non-denominational."

Dragon Fork is another weapon that is often associated with Pak Mei, but I don't know it.

Personally, I like nothing better than making a big Kwan Do sing like a little maiden. We do 2 forms.

EAZ, the Viet School here also does Tonfas, I believe. Cannon? SM? Can you correct me if I'm wrong?

We have a saying, "The hand is the mother, the stick is the father and all the other weapons are the children."

[fiercest tiger]

wassup mate!:) yeah vietnam bak mei has butterfly swords and tonfa's. ykm has butterfly swords but i havent done tonfas they dont excite me like the rest of my daughters hahahah! hmmmm:D

dai pa- big fork is one of my favourites! basic and useful:D

FT

[Pakmei]

Yes there is a double butterfly knives set as well as a double tonfa set.

Generally these forms are taught to the very senior students.

The weapon sets that are taught by my Pak Mei Sifu are:

Pak Mei Gwan
Double Tonfa
Double Butterfly Knives
Bench Chair
Kwan Dao
Tiger Fork
Short Sword and Sheild (Very, Very Closed Door Form)

We also have the Wu Shu weaponary such as the Broadsword, Straight Sword and Spear to give a flavour of weaponary to the junior students.

Generally you'll find that the traditional Pak Mei weapons are taught to only a select few, that the Sifu deems as worthy.
Even then you most probably won't learn all of the weaponary forms, unless your seen as the next student to become a Sifu, in the Pak Mei lineage.

Personally though, the weapons sets that I have learnt are:

Pak Mei Gwan, Double Tonfa's and the Bench Chair.

Anyway thats just my two pennies worth of information for you.

[CannonFist]

The double butterfly sword form (Chui Warn Lao Yip Seung Doe) that I know is very short. The emphasis is like most things in Pak Mei on the swallow, spit, float, sink and the ging as manifested in the sudden flicking of the wrist. Its a very linear form in terms of foot work as it focuses on charging footsteps.

As I understand it, Pak Mei does not seem to pay too much attention to too much weapon work apart from the pole forms. Although the tiger fork seems quite popular.

Yum Cha: Yes, we do have a tonfa form but it does not come from Vietnam Pak Mei, it is from Cheung Bing Lum. Also we tend to practise the Cheung Bing Lum version of the double butterfly form instead of the Vietnam version. The Vietnam version has more moves in it and more flowery.

[Yum Cha]

Hi Cannon, Dave thanks for coming to the party.

Double Butterfly knives -

Double Swords -

Are we talking about Sheng Do (Dao) the double dragon knives (as mentioned by Cannonfist), or are we talking about the double swords that are the shorter, thick, straight knives with the protection around the handle - I don't know the chinese name. They look a bit more like choppers...

Thanks in advance.

[Pakmei]

Hey Yum Cha,

The double butterfly knives are actually your latter choice,
the shorter, thick, straight knives with the protection around the handle the ones that are poplarised by the Wing Chun people.

[Yum Cha]

Thats what I thought. Do you know the chinese name? Cantonese?

Or are both styles of weapon called Sheng Do?

[Pakmei]

Yum Cha,

The name of this form is: "Chui Warn Lao Yip Seung Dao", although I'm not to certain on what the translation is.

Hope that helps.

[CannonFist]

In wing chun or Hung Gar the double choppers are called baat charm doe. But in Pak Mei we tend to call it Lao Yip Seung Doe. Chui Warn Lao Yip Seung Dao means "Chasing clouds aloevera (I think??) leaf double swords".

[fiercest tiger]

willow leaf i was told! lao yip jeung willow leaf palm!!:)

[CannonFist]

Fiercest Tiger!
Thanks, I think you might be right because I think I got my translation wrong.

I guess you have seen our double butterfly sword form, so is YKM's one similar?? What are the differences??

[kei lun]

In Bak Mei the Butterfly Swords are quite common, the form is called �gJui Wun Lau Yip Seung Do�h (cloud chasing willow leaf double swords). It is a long form with a lot of movements repeated in sets of �gthree�h, and many movements where you change the swords to a �greverse grip�h and brace it against the elbows. Many of the techniques are quite similar to the hand techniques: such as bui gim, sut choei, moh jaang, pow choei, etc. Do not confuse this form with �gSei Moon Baat Gwa Seung Do�h, which is the long broadswords.

Bak Mei has many weapons and they are all great forms. The difference of Bak Mei�fs weapons from other styles is that all the techniques, regardless of the weapon, comes from the body. If it looks like it could be a different style then it is definitely not Bak Mei, it is impossible to confuse it when done correctly.


Kei Lun

[fiercest tiger]

hope all is well with you and chow sifu?

I have your butterfly swords,straight sword, tonfas, sticks, hand sets on video from over the years of demos at the barbaque king tourneys.

The ykm swords are different and i learnt this from a elder brother from the american ykm school! it kinda looks the same when you go down and chop, switch grips etc

very basic but effective!!:D

[Shaolin Master]

FT,
Do you fight with weapons or just have 2-man sparring sets ?
Also, how do you go about it ?

Kei Lun,
sets of three often are a Bak Mei favorite with distinct origins in the Hakka fists fundamentals.
However are Bak Mei weapons more weighted at combat or at reinforcing empty hand concepts ?

Was Chueng Lai Chun well known for weapons or was it empty hands ?






[PS Yes the old concept of weapons are an extension of the limbs lalala is valid but realistically the best weapons fighter was not necessarily the best empty hand one and vice versa]

[fiercest tiger]

In class i bring out knives, base ball bats, sticks, all against empty hand or weapon!

i teach 1st how to fight with the body, then move on to seizing and grappling then knife or edge and blunt weapons.

ykm has a 2 man form for machine gun vs switch blade you wouldnt believe who wins!!:eek:

some weapons was designed to strengthen the body and help the empty hand sets thats true.

later
FT:)

[kei lun]

Shaolin Master,

Im not too sure what your asking. But not only Bak Mei favors 3�fs, pretty much any kung fu does the same. Weapons in Bak Mei are weighted yes. The purpose for this is NOT to build strength, it is so that you can train your power (body power, not arm) with a heavy object/weapon. Often Bak Mei pole techniques, for example, use a lot of pushing techniques where you brace your weapon against the opponent�fs body and push, or shock your power. This is the difference between Bak Mei weapons and other styles.

"Was Jeung Lai Cheun known for his weapons or empty hands?" Neither! He was known for his power! Whether hands or weapons doesn�ft matter, since the power comes from the body. Hope it helps.

Kei Lun

[fiercest tiger]

Have you heard the story about the flys in the tea house?

FT

[Yum Cha]

OK FT,
Spill it! This sounds like a good one....

[Rolling_Hand]

Gents,

Check this out :
http://home.Vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/butterflyknives.php

Unraveling the history of butterfly knives

[Ao Qin]

Hello,

Not to stir the pot, but LY has two (perhaps more) "original" butterfly knife sets, of course (!) not at all related to the BM sets.

They teach "whole body movement", along with as Kei Lun mentioned, the Draw Sword, Lap Sao Chung Choi, smash bridge technique, etc. This is not rocket science of course - practice these arts with five pound weights in your hands and your power will also improve vastly, if you are doing the breathing and body mechanics right.

The important thing to note is that in these sets, the weapon forms are specific to the art. In many LY and BM sets, the weapons were incorporated from Bak Siu Lum - mostly for demonstration purposes. A true LY or BM man (and I am most assuredly not) knows (and feels) the difference, between a real weapon set, and a demonstration set. Nothing wrong with some flash - but the essence of the Art is preserved in a few indiginious (and rare) weapons sets. The double knife sets have a place of honour in most Hakka systems.

Cheers!

[fiercest tiger]

He killed them with the pole!



:p

[grogan]

Gee FT your kids are going to hate it when you tell them a bed time story!

[fiercest tiger]

My kids if i ever have any will be scared for life once im finished with them! lol;)

Ok here is the story!

Once upon a time in Guangzhou there was a young man named Cheung Lai Chun (CLC). On a certain day of a god he was drinking tea in a tea house in Canton with many distinguished kung fu masters. It was a hot day as I remember:D with lots of flies buzzing around in this tea house. Suddenly, a famous kung fu master jumped up from his table challenging the young Cheung Lai Chun. CLC sat there and laughed "ha ha ha...ha bast@rd you must be tired of living." As CLC never rarely said no to a kung fu challenge. He pointed to the center of the tea house and said "CHING." "After you."

The challenging teacher, I cannot say his name for reasons of the forum, quickly grabbed his staff and went to the center of the tea house and explained to the young CLC that his pole was more superior, and that CLC's pole was rubbish. So CLC said "how would you like to fight?" The challenging master said "let us test your strength in the pole." The challenging master thought that he could pull a sligh one over the young Cheung Laiiiiiii Chun. Thinking that he is know for his hands, but not his weapons.

So this master stood there with his famous pole and did three moves in the air. After this all of the other masters looked on in disbelief. As he killed some flies in the center of the tea house. The crowd started to paw in to witness CLC get his first defeat.

Now it was CLC's turn to use the pole to show his strength.


Im really tired now. I will post part two tomorrow.

:o Sorry guys

FT

[fiercest tiger]

Cheung lai Chun grabbed the staff with a smerk on his face of this Master. Walked over to the center of the tea house where the flies where still buzzing around. CLC took a stance and swung the pole once, and the othe Master laughed and said "you missed the flies!"

All that looked on laughed with the famous Master and young CLC said "yes but look on the floor." After he said that this master looked down and the smile now became an embarrassment as he still killed the flies without hitting them.

Young Master Cheung Lai Chun said your pole techniques are the best around that is true even better than mine, but you must have
Ging in the staff in order for it to be Deadly!! Understanding this the master bowed down to Cheung Lai Chun and then said can i teach you my most advance stick form as a sign of respect, which he did.

So where does the bak mei pole come from?:D

[fiercest tiger]

i do believe so with timing and breathing also!

:)

what do you think?

[fiercest tiger]

i also believe this but i thought you want an basic answwer sorry my friend!

next time ill try better!:)

[fiercest tiger]

LUK GING, LUK HUP, YUM YEURNG SAU

WHATS YOUR THOUGHTS?:D

[fiercest tiger]

how much ging are we talking about?

what type also?

later give me ur number on PM PLEASE!:D

[S.Teebas]

in your experience can women acheive ging[guys be very careful how you answer]?

What makes you think they cannot?

[jon]

"gotta go soon,but i leave you with this,in your experience can women acheive ging[guys be very careful how you answer]?"
* Interestingly baited question, trying to start a flame war?
Ok ill bite:D
On an internal level ging production is [amoung other things] related to sperm production, this is the reason why many believe that by sustaining from orgasm you can increase your ging. Women can of course posses ging but there fighting sytles are better suited to arts which use more chi than ging. The two are not the same thing as im sure we all know, although they can be interchanged i hear.
Either way its possible for a "women to acheive ging" but its harder and the road is much longer.
On an external level is whole other story.
Ill proberly get flamed like all hell but you asked for "your experience" and this is mine.
Women excell chi based styles much more easily than they use ging based ones. Im sure there are always exceptions.

Just another drop of water for the bucket:)

[jon]

"though it sounds like your si-fu telling you? "
* Odd comment, i can take that two ways...

Either you mean did my sifu teach me my information, in which case of course he did.

If you mean is it my sifu's opinion and not mine, no its not. My opinion was based on my personal experience after doing several styles of cma and noticing the difference in performance levels of female class members.
Still as stated of course my information on ging production comes though my sifu.

I would teach a female Bagua over Hung any day of the week, this is a big part of the reason why im starting to branch out into other arts.
This is not becouse i dont think females can do hung, its becouse i feel there time and energy would be better spent on an art that favors chi and flow to explosive ging.

[Yum Cha]

So, with total respect to the style, what does this say about Wing Chun?

If of course you believe in the legend of it being inspired by a Nun and her female disciple...

[jon]

"So, with total respect to the style, what does this say about Wing Chun? "
* Darn good question, now its starting to get interesting.

My money is on the fact that WC relies on speed, reflex and technique as opposed to 'power'. Force generation is not so big in WC as it is in many other arts as the focus is on sesitivity and reflex.
These are both perfect traits for a female fighter to focus on as they lend well to the phycial and mental make up of many female fighters.
I certainly think WC use ging, I also believe women can have ging so dont make that mistake.
However i think both WC and women are better off with another focus than ging or even power in general.
Would be interesting to hear a good wc players opinion on this.

[Lau]

To come back to the subject of Pak Mei weapons and power generation, I think weapons teach a lot about body mechanics and power generation. My personal favorite is the daai pah, tiger fork. We practice it with the heavy fork. So if the movement isn't correct you'll instantly feel it. Only if the root \ stance is strong, the waist is used, the breathing is correct and the body works correct the move will be clear and powerfull. So the weapons help for your open hand forms.

The same goes for practice with the unicorn, (kay lin) It trains you to turn quick and powerfull and to change directions while using power.

Regards, Lau

[diego]

To the top. What kind of legends have you guys heard about relating to Bak Mei weapons specifically Shaolin and White Eyebrow?. Just picked up the main section of the big field staff..can't recall the Chinese name :)