5 animals and Southern Styles

[EAZ]

Greetings,

I would like to uderstand more the link between 5 animal theory, as apparently taught in Southern Shaolin Temples after Hennan Temple burned down in 1647, and Southern styles such as Hung Gar, Wing Chun Pei Mei, etc...

It appears that many of the Southern schools were indeed born out of this pool of Southern Shaolin teachings, which were already probably teaching different things in different regions of Southern China.

Each school in fact appears to have emphesised one animal or another: Pei Mei = tiger and leopard, Wing Chun = crane and snake, Hung gar = crane and (someone help me here) dragon, dragon = ....dragon (!). I know nothing of SPM but maybe they as were inspired in some way by the 5 animal system.

My question to you all is:
a) is it fair to say that 90% of Southern styles such as those just mentioned come from this SOuthern Shaolin tradition?

b) if yes, did the theory of 5 animals have any bearing on their creation? (apparently it did in SOME cases)?

c) How come most schools do not integrate knowledge/theory of all 5 animals today, instead just super specialising in 1-2 types of techniques, thus perhaps missing out on some things?


As an opener: I have been told that certain Pei Mei practioners (the style which I practice) have serious health problems after a certain time if they practice intensely, because they practice certain postures/exercices linked to 1-2 animal principles in an exclusive fashion.

I hope someone can light lantern here....

[guohuen]

Bon jour Eaz. I practice the Hg Ying Kyun (Wuxing Quan) from Hung Gar and it is my understanding that the set probably came from one of the sub temples around the southern Shaolin temple to Wong Fei Hung third or fourth generation. Wong Fei Hungs student Lam Sai Wing added the five elements.

[TenTigers]

Two things, I was taught that Bak Mei was actually all five animals, with emphasis on Dragon, and I believe the elemnts were always there, either from original Lo-Han Kuen , and the input of Wong Lam's Lion's Roar (Lama P'ai) any input?? Oh, and BTW, Hung-Ga is FIVE animal, Tiger Crane is a form that is popularly demonstrated due to it's dynamic movements, but Hung-Ga is not Tiger and Crane style.

[EAZ]

There are a lot of styles with a form or an element relating to 5 animals/elements. I'm thinking more along the lines of theory taught behind style as well.

Thank you for rmentioning about the form originating in South Shaolin temple.

5 animals in Pei Mei. I too thought that the 5 animals were CORPS CONCEPTS in the style. In fact on the altar in most schools shows the picture of Pei Mei
and the sentence, Pei Mei practiced Dragon, Snake and Crane but mastered Leopard and Tiger (very liberal translation). But then when I went out in the world I found other schools with this completely absent: New-York school, Ly Man Tak's students from Hong Kong, and others.

The only time some people talk of 5 animals is just to say (and I am not understating its importance)that Tiger is such and such character, such and such attitude and that's it basta. In no way is it apart of a global learning system.

ten tigers: I stand corrected.

[mantis108]

May be it would help the discussion, if you'd define your five animals theory .

BTW, here something about the couplet by the alter which I had posted awhile back. I am not sure if that thread survived the forum change. Anyway, here it is

"The coulpet is then to illustrate that:
1. Metaphysical aspects and internal teaching are "the essence" and are so hard to grasp that only the immortals can instruct the student when he is ready.
2. The physical aspects (power, strength, forms, dispositions, etc.) are the external teachings, which Sifu can transmit in person.
If we see a performance that seems to have all the power and the right movements but something is amiss, we know that the Sifu has done his best. It is the essence, which is missing. That is up to the student to learn the ultimate truth of the art. "

Some school of Bak Mei place more emphasis with the second half of the couplet, which is about the invaluable and tangible instructions that the Sifu can give; hence, out of context came the tiger & leopard emphasis. It is not wrong per se, just out of context that's all. To each their own.

Mantis108

[extrajoseph]

Bonjour, mon ami. Your theory is an interesting one, Choy Lee Fut as a martial arts system was also greatly influenced by the Five Animals (Ng Ying) and it formed part of their core concepts. It would be fascinating to do a comparative study of the southern styles and see what part the animal forms played in their teaching curriculum. You may find the following 3 threads in the clfma.com forum worth reading:

http://www.clfma.com/viewtopic.php?topic=95&forum=1

http://www.clfma.com/viewtopic.php?topic=79&forum=1

http://www.clfma.com/viewtopic.php?topic=88&forum=1

[Yum Cha]

Another interesting thread, thanks EAZ.

Firstly, let me say that my Pak Mei, or at least what I am taught, doesn't contain the 5 animals theory as part of its teaching, internal or external. I know many do, and hesitate to speak for all Guangzhou Pak Mei, but this is the teaching of my Sifu to me.

Secondly, my own interest in 5 Animals and Elements is not diminished intellectually, and I have a basic understanding. I have other exposures too, beyond my Sifu, another life, another time. (back when I was a kid).

So, I am ready to accept any refutation, in that this is the product of my own understanding and perspective, and limited it may be.

From the study of comparative literature, we learn that any language, any literature, carries with it not only the face value of the words, but a sense of the time in which it was written. Plurality of meaning is common in philosophical writing, and that allows each "age" to bring to the interpretation the trappings of that time. The Bible is one such example.

The men that developed these theories are removed by many hundreds of years and lived in a world with little science, little education and much superstision. I think we can all agree on that?

The Animals and Elements were their way to verbalise their interpretations of physical phenomena and imparting wisdom beyond that. Also a way of developing their own "intellectual property" and intimidating opponents.

We are not of that lifetime, yet there are lessons to be had from their wisdom, the question is, how much is what they meant, and how much is our interpretation based on our own experience and understanding from this time.

If I am not mistaken, the I Ching contains many of the same concepts that martial artists use in their interpretations, which would indicate to me that these concepts in general are the currency of the time, not necessarily the currency of any particular martial art, rather, each Sifu, in his way, took this common philosophical framework and used it to explain their own particular "lessons" to their students.

Fundamentally, all the animals are more or less the same across all the arts, from my experience. Not the applications, but the profiles. 5 animals were expaned to 12 or thereabouts later, as the arts grew more specialised, physically speaking. Metaphysically speaking, there are other lessons from the animals, such as nature, attitude, strategy.

Thus, Tiger might be vicious clawing techniques, rolled shoulders, or likewise, an attitude towards an opponent that assumed inferiority and fear and gave the practitioner a seething hunter's predisposition. A very simple example.

Now, all that rambling on my own personal viewpoints in order to address your third point, mon ami.

We do a pattern called Ng Ying, 5 Animals. We do a number of other patterns that also use other "movements/techniques" that go beyond the Tiger or Leopard "class." Agreed, Pak Mei is known for the Tiger and Leopard, but the practice, the forms if you will, contain examples of all animals, or at least how we do them. Generically speaking.

Now, the fighting is another story. Suffice to say, fighting like a Tiger doesn't necessarily mean using Tiger techniques? Nes Pas?

Do you find these comments consistant with your Animals and Elements teaching or inconsistant?

Mantis108

Pleased to meet you, Meltdawn gives you high praise.

What is the couplet in its complete form?

I ask, because what you say makes total sense to me from my own physical experience in Pak Mei. In a manner of speaking, a practitioner "crosses the bridge" as some point, or gets lost searching. This is a phenomena known to us, but I've never heard it put as succinctly or even related back to the heritage of our art.

Secondly, your Pak Mei experience, is that with Sifu Lee Pai or one of his students?

[jon]

Just a little bit of legend to add to the fray, this is of course unprovable but it can be interesting as a story.

Apperently the monks of Shaolin were all taught all five animals but after there graduation if they stayed on they would then specialise in either one or two of the five.
Bak Mei is said to have studied Tiger and Leapord to the highest levels and Hung Hei Gwun was said to have focused tiger.
Fong Sai Yuk's major was crane kung fu and his niece supposedly married Hung Hei Gwun which is where Hungs crane technique became further developed.
So in essence some of the styles these founders have created still bear some of the hall marks of there orginal source.
If you look at Hung [which i study] you can see a very heavy tiger flavor even in some of the other animals, particualy in terms of footwork and use of power. The whole five are certainly there in there own right but it was not untill later that they were properly developed. Hung Hei Gwuns signiture form Gung Gee is still heavily dominated by tiger kung fu.
Bak Mei has a heavy influence still from leapord, the power generation is similar and so is the mindset.

More legend than fact but interesting never the less, my theory would be that if this was the case then at some point each of the five animals must have been total systems in there own right and over time have been addapted by different styles to include each other so that they would have more options and an larger curriculum to suit different students with different mindsets.
I would love if this was the case to see some of the orginal forms from which the techniques have been taken.

[EAZ]

Many many thanks to each of you for taking the time to reply. It very much helped. I find my point of view cosolidated by your statements. Your French is remarkable too ;-)


Jon: these legends you speak of I know of as well and there must be a grain of truth.

Thé chaud: Yes I understand all the points you make.

Joseph: thank you very much for the effort. All contained there is linked to global theory of martial arts that I am taught (not specific to Pei Mei) and thus a part of our curriculum.

Mantis108: Yes I think I know what you are talking about. This is a more advanced concept, dealing with internalising spirit of style if I understand correctly.

I guess what I am saying is:

Yi King = fundamental book of Chinese philosophy/thinking
Eastern Medecal theory and pracice = based on Yi King (and yes I know on Ayurvedic medecine but let us not get into that)
Chinese astrology, geomancy and Physiognomony based on medical theory and Yi King.
Martial arts (Shaolin included) comes from Eastern Medical theory and Yi King and bare hand fighting technics.

CONCLUSION
5 elements and 5 animals are part and parcel of complete othodox chinese martial arts training.

Anyways thanks all.

[extrajoseph]

EAZ,

That was a nice summary. I really like your term "a global theory of martial arts". I thought what we were talking about was just an Asian theory of martial arts.

Do you think there is a correlation between the Five Animals and the Five Elements? If there is, what Element is the Dragon, etc?

I also noticed that Hua Tou’s Five-Animal Play has the Tiger, Deer, Bear, Monkey and Bird as the Five Animals instead of the Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard and Crane. Do you know if they are related in some way?

Just curious.

JosephX

[EAZ]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
EAZ,

That was a nice summary. I really like your term "a global theory of martial arts". I thought what we were talking about was just an Asian theory of martial arts.

Do you think there is a correlation between the Five Animals and the Five Elements? If there is, what Element is the Dragon, etc?

I also noticed that Hua Tou’s Five-Animal Play has the Tiger, Deer, Bear, Monkey and Bird as the Five Animals instead of the Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard and Crane. Do you know if they are related in some way?

Just curious.

JosephX

Of course I meant ASIAN theory of martial arts. ...

I have clearly been taught that there is a correlation between animals and elements. The fact there some schools teach different animals for different animals is in fact related to Eastern medicine as best as I can tell, as there are 2+systems, some based on 5 elements plus 6th, ec.

Dragon = FIRE = SHEN = continuous pushing power etc.....can't really gointo it though here.

As to other 5 animals they are either a) related to another taoist principle as is the case of certain Chi Kung for example turtle breath etc. b) a combination of the initial 5.

[mantis108]

Hi Yum Cha, Eaz,

I am pleased to me you both. :) I think I will address the fine posts that you have separately if you don't mind.

First to Yum Cha,

"Pleased to meet you, Meltdawn gives you high praise."

Pleased to meet you too. I think she's being far too kind. :) Thank you. :) Your posts are very impressive as well.

"What is the couplet in its complete form?"

Here's the recap in case you have missed it.

Bak Mei has quite a few poems and couplets. Here is one of my favorites.

"Immortal(s) instructs the Dragon, Serpent, and Crane."

"Sfiu(s) transmits the Tiger and the leopard (forms)"

Please note that in Chinese the couplet was written with 7 characters on each phrase. The word "Ying" (forms) on the second phrase seemed to be redundant. Personally, I find it adds to the couplet a different dimension. IMO, it serves 2 purposes. I shall discuss it below.

Let's take them apart:

Immortals: this shows the Taoist origin of the style and implies also the metaphysical facet of the art.

The Five animals:
Dragon is majestic in its "Shan" the perceptive spirit. (Feel your opponent)

Serpent is venomous in its "Sum" heart/mind. (Calculate your options)

Crane is airborn/graceful in its "Yi" the intent. (Dominate the fight at will)

The above show the metaphysical aspects and internal nature of the style.

Tiger is tyranious in its "Lik" the strength. (Command your opponent's respect)

Leopard is fierce in its "Sai" the determination/dispositions. (strike terror into the core of your opponent's very being)

The five animals show the Shaolin connection of Bak Mei.

Sifu and "Ying" imply physical aspects and external nature.

"Ying" also makes up the 7th Character.

The coulpet is than to illustrate that:

1. Metaphysical aspects and internal teaching are "the essence" and are so hard to grasp that only the immortals can instruct the student when he is ready.

2. The physical aspects (power, strength, forms, dispositions, etc.) are the external teachings, which Sifu can transmit in person.

If we see a performance that seems to have all the power and the right movements but something is amiss, we know that the Sifu has done his best. It is the essence, which is missing. That is up to the student to learn the ultimate truth of the art.

-end-

"I ask, because what you say makes total sense to me from my own physical experience in Pak Mei. In a manner of speaking, a practitioner "crosses the bridge" as some point, or gets lost searching. This is a phenomena known to us, but I've never heard it put as succinctly or even related back to the heritage of our art. "

Glad you see what is behind it. You are right that while some cross the bridge, many others lost it altogether. From a Taoist perspective that's the "norm" . *sigh* I don't know about other styles but the alter in Bak Mei has a very important roll besides being a place for honor and respects. It serves as a reminder to what Bak Mei represents and why, who, when, where, what, and how of practice. If you are keen enough you would "see" the whole purpose of training in front of you not just intellectually but holisticly as a whole person. Why this art in particular? why not others?

The horizontal writting "Fung" (wind) "Fou" (inverted fire) and "Yuen" (mansion) all means something. Yes, it is the same all over the board with all Bak Mei Kwoons. Adding the couplet, They cover the entirity of the essence of the training. It is a 3D booklet by itself. Paying homage to the alter, doesn't mean that you are following a cult (like a lot of the westeners think) . In our case, you have acknowledged and accepted that Kung Fu (specificly Bak Mei) is your lifetime study (your Tao) . You are not there to play sports/passtime. You are there to learn as a human being and becoming an even better human being (at the very least). Through the teachings of the immortals and the Kwoon(marcocomos) and the efforts of Sifu plus yourself (mircocomos) you journey the chosen path BaK Mei Kung Fu. Your choice and path are clear. Your destintion reflects that. It is plain simple. Hope this clear things up a bit.

Secondly, your Pak Mei experience, is that with Sifu Lee Pai or one of his students?

My Sifu was the late Chow Fook. I am from one of the HK Lung Ying/Bak Mei Kwoon. And you?

[mantis108]

Hi Eaz,

Since you are interested in 5 Phases (Elements), here is something I wrote on my forum. I have made another post about this on the Cyberkwoon forum as well. But can't find it right now so, this will have to do for the time being. I know you have an interest in I Ching. So hope this will whet you appetit. :)

"The 5ET associates the 5 major organs (Ying ones) with the four cardinal directions and the center in a cross pattern. On the South (top) North(bottom) axis, there are Heart/Brian and the kidneys. On the East(left) and West(right) axis, there are Liver(left), Spleen(center), and Lungs(right). The South-North axis is to illustrate the elevation signifying the growth of a Taoist practitioner. Where as the East-West axis is the lay person is like. Life (Time) is experienced as a flat duration and is linear in nature, for which east is birth and west is death (last breath of air). A person (basically everyone starts of the same way) needs to have blood, which is governed by the liver, Nutrition, which is governed by the spleen, and Air which is governed by the lungs to be able to live normally and healthly. But that is just the normal human being. For A Taoist he would cultivate the intrinsic energy which was part of his parents and now store within him/her after birth. This intrinsic energy is governed by the Kidneys (including the testicles for men) and also diminishes daily. During meditations (South-North axis illustrate this practice), where Time is experienced as moment (4D/spatial-temporal flux), This Pre-natal Chi is transported and is combined with the post-natal Chi (EW axis) and form the Jing (the essence) which is then further purified to Qi (the purified intrinsic enegry). Finally, the Chi become Shen (spirit) where it is resided at the heart/brian/mind. The Jing, Qi, Shen is also known as the three treasures of Taoism. In the most classical Taoist view, the treasures are but one. There are considered as one entity which appears in different forms. So a simple picture tells a long tale. :)

Mantis108

[mantis108]

I found the post on the CK forum. Here it is

"Taoism worldview is holistic and organic. Ying/Yang theory and Five Elements theory make no particular sense in Western detached and mechanical worldview. How can the elements interact with each other without external forces? From the Eastern perspective, the elements are ecological systems or organisms, which naturally interacts with each and have life spans of their own. That’s the important concept of impermanence. They exist and Co-exist; furthermore, they are paradoxically independent and codependent. They also go through natural cycle of life and death or grow and decay. This life and death is more of a transformation than really cease to exist; hence the concept of reincarnation. There are 2 sets of the five elements (5ET) Charts. A modern one, which is highly likely a Ming dynasty innovation (CE 1368-1644), looks like a star pattern. The Five Elements chart in ancient Taoist texts looks something like a cross:

South/top/fire/heart


East/left/wood/liver ------- Center/earth/Spleen -------- West/metal/lungs

North/bottom/water/kidneys

*sorry the drawing doesn't work here*

As we can see, there are a few relationship developed just by looking at the chart. The horizontal line is basic requirement for sustaining daily function in Chinese medicine. In human the Liver is to produce/regulate blood, Spleen is to process the essence of food, and Lungs is for breathing the all-important air. We must remember this is holistic in nature. This horizontal line also suggests that mortals' lives are more or less a flat liner. The Vertical line, on the other hand, indicates that through the Taoist disciplines of celibacy, dieting, and meditations, the Taoist disciple elevates from humanity to immortality (of course this is theoretically speaking). However, it doesn't mean that the horizontal line can be ignored. It is still an important platform for achieving a higher plateau.

The 5ET associates the 5 major organs (Ying ones) with the four cardinal directions and the center in a cross pattern. On the south-north axis (south on top and north on bottom), there are Heart/Brian and the kidneys. On the east-west axis (east is left and west is right), there are Liver(left), Spleen(center), and Lungs(right). The South-North axis is to illustrate the elevation signifying the growth of a Taoist practitioner; whereas, the East-West axis is the layperson is like. Life (Time) is experienced as a flat duration and is linear in nature, for which east is birth and west is death (last breath of air). This means time is understood as pass, present, and future for a common person who has no choice but to be reincarnated over and over again. A person (basically everyone starts of the same way) needs to have blood, which is governed by the liver, Nutrition, which is governed by the spleen, and Air which is governed by the lungs to be able to live normally and healthily. But that is just the normal human being. For A Taoist he would cultivate the intrinsic energy, which was part of his parents and now store within him/her after birth. This is known as pre-natal Qi. This intrinsic energy is governed by the Kidneys (including the testicles for men) and also diminishes daily. During meditations (South-North axis illustrate this practice), where Time is experienced as a moment (4D/spatial-temporal flux), This Pre-natal Qi is transported and is combined with the post-natal Chi (EW axis) and form the Jing (the essence), which is then further purified to Qi (the purified intrinsic enegry). Finally, the Qi becomes Shen (spirit) where it is resided at the heart/brian/mind. The Jing, Qi, Shen is also known as the three treasures of Taoism. In the most classical Taoist view, the treasures are but one. There are considered as one entity, which appears in different forms. So a simple picture tells a long tale."

Enjoy.

Mantis108

[extrajoseph]

You have given some great explanations on the 5 Elements. Thank You. Base on what you said, can you give us a correlation between the 5 Elements and the 5 Animals? I can't figure out guohuen's combinations using your theory. Instead I got:

Dragon = Shen (Spirit) = Fire = Heart = South
Snake = Chi = Earth = Spleen = Centre
Crane = Jing (Essence) = Water = Kidney = North
Leopard = Lik (Strength)= Wood = Liver = East
Tiger = Sai (or Gwak - Bone) = Metal = Lung = West

The first three are prenatal (or metphysical) and the last two post natal (or physical) with the Snake in the centre integrating the two. It makes sense if you consider the vertical (N/S) axis as Taoist esoteric practice of reversal of the Water and Fire. It also makes sense along the horizontal axis (E/W) as birth is the seed of death (with depletion of Chi as we get older) and strength is based on the configuration of the bone structure coupled with Chi in the middle, which further reinforced the importance of Chi in Kung Fu and health of the body and mind. Now I better go and practice my Snake form!

Yours and others comments would be greatly appreciated.

JosephX

[mantis108]

Hi Josephx,

I believe a lot of people tried to make the correlation of Shaolin 5 Animals to the Taoist 5 Phases (Elements). Frankly, there isn't a correlation.

Shaolin 5 animals were developed under a different set of circumstances (i.e. reintroduction the martial heritage back to Shaolin temple during the Yuen dynasty.)

Taoist 5 Phases theories (5PT) were develop to satify most if not all aspects and needs of Chinese society (ie cosmology, medicine, military science, etc...)

In other words 5PTs are more profound that just personal combat matters. There are indeed 5 animals (dragon/east, tiger/west, pheonix/south, snake+turtle/north and 2 others animals/middle)associated with the 5PTs. Although some of them are similar to the Shaolin 5 animals, they are not indentical at all. These 2 sets of animals are used for different purposes. I won't get into the details here because that's a bit esoteric. Also, Buddhist traditions have their own approaches to deal with things their way. They don't need 5PTs to support what they do. Just like the Taoist won't need the Buddhist neither. However, they are competable in many aspects naturally. So while it is nice that they are similar, they don't have to match exactly.

The Shaolin 5 animals are used in Bak Mei to reflect the Shaolin martial facet of the art. Besides it is much more easy to grasp than a bunch of Taoist Jargons. For the depth of the art, one will then have to dwell into the Taoist teaching. This is why Bak Mei is so ingeniously intriguing. One could take as little as one wants or go all the way with this art that blends the essence of Buddhist and Taoist traditions. Hope this clears it up for you. :)

Mantis108

[extrajoseph]

Hmm... That is what Sifu Choy said as well:

"As far as I know, there is no strict correlation between the Five Elements and the Five Animals..."

Now it all make sense, thanks Mantis 108.

[jon]

Five Animals and Five elements
This is an advanced form of Hung Ga and uses each, there is a relation between different animals and different elements but im not exact enough on that to give out information.
Also as guohuen just stated they work in a distruction cycle.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks Mantis, you have given me many puzzle pieces where I had only logical conclusions, and it makes an interesting picture. I am in your debt.

I won't say I understand it all, but there is understanding to seek, and perhaps it will come to me.

EAZ, FT, how does this mesh with your understanding? Comments?

My Sifu Leung Yuk Seng was a student of Leung Sui Hoy (no relationship). I know my Sifu knew your Sifu Chau Fook well, he has mentioned him several times. There is more on our website, see my profile.

[extrajoseph]

Guohuen,

You said earlier:
“Tiger-metal, leopard-fire, dragon-water, snake-earth and crane-wood.”

And you also said now:
“I learned the animals and the elements as the destruction cycle. Fire destroys metal, metal destroys wood, wood destroys earth, earth destroys water and water destroys fire.”

Does that mean leopard destroys tiger, tiger destroys crane, crane destroys snake, snake, destroys dragon and dragon destroys leopard? In a physical or metaphysical sense or both?

Why the destruction cycle and not the nourishing cycle? I thought the Ng Ying Kuen is meant to cultivate (and not to destroy) the shen (dragon), the bone (tiger), the strength (leopard), the chi (snake) and the jing (crane).

Mantis 108,

Earlier you said:
“Tiger is tyrannous in its "Lik" the strength.”

I thought Leopard trains the Lik or strength and Tiger the Gwak or Bone. Have I missing something here? You also used the word Sai for Gwak, do they mean the same thing?

JosephX

[diego]

when i was just a shorty, i ran with a crew, and when i look back on our deviance, thier seemed to be standard cliche's in our streetfighting style, wich was really an acumalation of tricks, such as using your locker lock as a knuckleduster, and that it seems thier was this whole subculture of jailboxing, Now if this makes sence, then on to my thought on the 5animal, i have this working theory, just like the crews from my youth, within the oldschool kf circles, most likly thier was universal consistency just like two friends can box in a park with professional rules&structure, within the crews in china, they prolly had thier tysons, and ali's...and the kids would gongsau under this similar basis, thinking they were cool. My curiosity in this subject surrounds the probable fact most of our most killer techniques was probably tricks of the trade, for the masses......, Now i'm looking at this from a western boxer history&culture perspective, were we usually stand on our two and punch you out, were if you look at vagabond styles, our most degnified technique is childsplay compared to thier eyemisplacers&neck nibbles.

http://wingchunkuen.com/journal/features/ritchie_opera.shtml
If you read pt.2 of this link it gets into its probable the 5elder legends were just that, to buil moral. Now in my word's maybe this has something to do with the south famous styles having these influences, maybe these were ali muhamed dance like a butterfly sting like a bee influences upon the masses; HEHE....THEY JUST DID'NT HAVE T.V.:)

[EAZ]

(Thanks all again for responding).

Mantis108: thank you for making a VERY important clarification of two representations of 5 elements:
a) the North South East West organs associated etc) which is lifted almost verbatim from Yi King commentaries (however the ealiest confirmed date of written version of commentaries in 17th century, although I agree probably much older).

(I am aware of cultivation of prenatal post natal chi and its relation to martial arts but I never was taught/made the link with 4 directions diagram above as you have )

b) the circle theory (cycle of creation and destruction), which you have informed me is from Yuen dynasty . I did not know this, I thought that it was mixed into a) from the beginning.

Both a) and b) are totally integrated in what MANTIS108 calls holistic vision of CHinese: medecine, astrology, meteology, everything.

Clearly animal theory was invented AFTER a) or b), and in contexte of martial arts.

Up until there we should all agree here, n'est ce pas?

So then some say animal theory
- ARE NOT linked to elements (i.e. most of you)
- ARE linked to elements theory (pretty much just me, boy it's getting cold around here)


Those who say ARE NOT, say that yes 5 animals is part of SOuthern styles and Pei Mei in particular: the link is on moral/psychological/essence level. I have been taught this as well.

To stay on thread, should I surmise that Southern schools missing out on this interpretation are lacking some heritage from SHaolin tradition?

Those who say ARE (me basically), say that there is also another extremely important dimension to animals theory. That, descending from the lofty intellectual heights of taoist esoteric thought, animal theory has a real CONCRET meaning in practice of SOuthern Kung Fu martial arts issueing from SHaolin tradition



Originally posted by extrajoseph
Guohuen,

You said earlier:
“Tiger-metal, leopard-fire, dragon-water, snake-earth and crane-wood.”

And you also said now:
“I learned the animals and the elements as the destruction cycle. Fire destroys metal, metal destroys wood, wood destroys earth, earth destroys water and water destroys fire.”

Does that mean leopard destroys tiger, tiger destroys crane, crane destroys snake, snake, destroys dragon and dragon destroys leopard? In a physical or metaphysical sense or both?

Why the destruction cycle and not the nourishing cycle? I thought the Ng Ying Kuen is meant to cultivate (and not to destroy) the shen (dragon), the bone (tiger), the strength (leopard), the chi (snake) and the jing (crane).


Ahhh (relief)... ExtraJoseph, you hit the nail onthe head!

Not only is destruction and creation cycle part and parcel of martial arts theory (here Fierce Tiger would agree), but also translated through theory of 5 animals (FT does not agree).

So in the "ARE" camp, extrajoseph has unwittingly taken a step to my side (hope you don't mind extrajoseph). The PRINCIPLES OF MOVEMENT (by movement I include legs, arms body and strikes of all types) using the "ARE NOT" camp's definition as a base (i.e. Dragon powerful, snake subtile, Tiger direct courageous bones, etc... much more detailed than this), can be translated into 5 elements principle of creation and destruction.

And so when faced with Tiger attack(courage, ferocious linear direct strike, type of trajectory (i.e. initial point of departure - trajectoy - point of impact) is loose then smash type impact etc... again way too long to describe here and besides part of our training..., the optimal response in terms of animals is.............

Of course, there are three caveates to this theory:
1. it assumes that each person has same initial level of energy (who cares how you define it).
2. Your response to to an attack "of energy level 4", is a response of at least "4" or else you will fail. (This means that I may know that I've got to dodge Mike Tyson's strike, but I am not quick enough and thus will be spoon fed for the rest of my life)
3. no movement or strike is purely one animal and in fact each animal can contain 4 others etc... fractal.

The wonderful thing is that the type of strike/movement (elastic penetrating, impact, push/pull,) is DIRECTLY LINKED to Eastern medical theory to stimulate certain organs etc, or certain types chi cultivation (don't know enough about this though).

The whole reason why Pak Mei (Pei Mei) emphesises Tiger and Leopard (while of course still displaying oher three at times) is that basic technics tiger step leopard penetrating angle punch etc...(not just spirit of movement etc alhtough extremely important as well) ARE IN LINE with this theory.

But I have gone way over the line of what I can discuss on hte forum.

So back to my thread:

If and only if the way I was taught is true, and if it was not invented recently but in fact is part of very old Shaolin tradition, how come only schools in vietnam and maybe some Hung Gar schools apparently have something like this?

(Hope someone has read to the end of this post as I may not have been able to convey my thoughts properly while working simultaneously on Excel sheet at work.)


Last word to ExtraJoseph: Ng Ying Kuen, I was taught, is thus EXACTLY what you say.
EAZ

[mantis108]

Hi Yum Cha

"Thanks Mantis, you have given me many puzzle pieces where I had only logical conclusions, and it makes an interesting picture. I am in your debt. "

You are most welcome and I am glad to be of help. All I can say is theories must be applicable through our practice otherwise it is just intellectual understanding which is good to a certain extend (acadamic pursuits) but that's not much use for a Kung Fu-er.

"I won't say I understand it all, but there is understanding to seek, and perhaps it will come to me."

The information that I have presented are a basketful of things broiled down to those lines. There are many sources of these things so it will take time to sort them out. I am glad that you are seeking and "IT" sure will come to you.

"My Sifu Leung Yuk Seng was a student of Leung Sui Hoy (no relationship). I know my Sifu knew your Sifu Chau Fook well, he has mentioned him several times. There is more on our website, see my profile."

Ah, Sifu Leung have heard of or met with my Sifu? That's great. Please send my regards to him. Thanks. Canton used to be one of the favorite places of Sifu. He always encouraged us to travel with him to visit different places and Kung Fu relatives and friends. I am considering following his foot steps. Anyway, it is a pleasure to meet you. :)

Mantis108

[Daughda]

More Please!
I am a very new student of Five family / Five Animal (Ark Yuey Wong's art) and am enjoying this post muchly.
Any one else here a Ng Ga Kin student?

Thanks and keep them coming!

[mantis108]

"Earlier you said:
“Tiger is tyrannous in its "Lik" the strength.”

I thought Leopard trains the Lik or strength and Tiger the Gwak or Bone. Have I missing something here? You also used the word Sai for Gwak, do they mean the same thing? "

First and foremost, tiger and leopard are both big cats. There are very similar and yet very different. Tigers are larger and heavier than leopard. So they are physically stronger - period. That's why tiger represents strength. Also Chinese believe that strength (lik) comes strong bones. When cutting up a tiger you have big bones but not much meat; hence, the believe that it is the bones that gives tigers their strength. Tiger bones as medicine is also based on this believe. Nowadays we have more understanding about anatomy, we know that it is muscloskeletal not just skeletal or musclar. In older Chinese martial arts systems, this believe that strength is developed through strong bone is articulated as a sound body structure. We see this in many of the southern arts that body mechanics (well tuned structural alignments with a well developed base of support) is key.

Sai is a very hard concept to explain. It is more or less like the military dispositions. It changes all the time. Leopard being a lighter more agile animal than the tiger, it can not affort to confront aggressor such a tiger to protect it's food or territories. So it hunts and it plays hide and seek (take food up to trees where the tiger might have problem to reach). It's muscloskeletal structure is built with multi-tasking in mind. It has to be able to perform striking, grappling, and hauling all with the same set of muscloskeletal system.

In summary, Tiger can use simple attack strikes fast and furious because it has the advantage of size and strength. Leopard relies more on combinations attack agile yet determined because it is built to be multi-tasking.

If you can understand the nature of these animal and reference it with which your Sifu told you, I think you will see the answer clearly.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

"Mantis108: thank you for making a VERY important clarification of two representations of 5 elements:"

You are most welcome and I am glad that you are aware of importance between the 2 representations. It would make the discussion easier.

"a) the North South East West organs associated etc) which is lifted almost verbatim from Yi King commentaries (however the ealiest confirmed date of written version of commentaries in 17th century, although I agree probably much older). "

We have to bare in mind that there are 2 major schools in I Ching Study - Confucian and Taoist. Majority (80 % plus) of the work on I Ching are from the Confucian schools.

"(I am aware of cultivation of prenatal post natal chi and its relation to martial arts but I never was taught/made the link with 4 directions diagram above as you have )"

That's what have been "hidden" within the Taoist traditions. It is no secret and it has been there for all time but people choice to ignore it. That's all. In other words, cultivation of Qi is theory based (of highly deliberate thoughts) not some oldwives tales. Modern physics would have not problem with it but classical (Newton who was a Christian) Physics has a hard time to reconcile with it.

"b) the circle theory (cycle of creation and destruction), which you have informed me is from Yuen dynasty . I did not know this, I thought that it was mixed into a) from the beginning."

The Crossed pattern dated back or rather claimed to be as far as Fu Hsi period(BCE 2852 - 2728). It is accepted and used mostly by Confucians. So even in a collective work on the I Ching ordered by one of the Yuen Emporers (CE 1206 - 1368), there was no mentioning of the star/circular pattern. That could means 2 things a) it had not been invented b) it is not popular among the confucian "scholars" and we have to check see if the Taoists had it back then . My view of the star/circular pattern is invented or popular during Yuen, Ming, Ching (CE 1206 onwards) is that China started to have outside influence from the west (Marco Polo's visit and the Christian Missonary that came after). They brought a long western technology, science, etc... We then see a paradigm shift in Astrology, divination techniques, etc... All this because the fundamental worldview of the Chinese experienced a change induced by western thoughts and worldview. You will note that the star/circular pattern groups the elements in kind and has a "invisible hand" pushing it (i.e. God) feel to it (the creative cycle) . The traditional mathematic underpinning is totally gone. And so is the interaction. Anyway, thought you might want to check this avenue out. ;)

"Both a) and b) are totally integrated in what MANTIS108 calls holistic vision of CHinese: medecine, astrology, meteology, everything."

In a sense, they compliment each other. But yes it is holistic and organic when it comes to Chinese worldview.

"Clearly animal theory was invented AFTER a) or b), and in contexte of martial arts. "

Up until there we should all agree here, n'est ce pas? "

Agreed.

"So then some say animal theory
- ARE NOT linked to elements (i.e. most of you)
- ARE linked to elements theory (pretty much just me, boy it's getting cold around here)


Those who say ARE NOT, say that yes 5 animals is part of SOuthern styles and Pei Mei in particular: the link is on moral/psychological/essence level. I have been taught this as well."

I think I will need to open another thread to clarify this if you are interested. It would be somewhat off the topic.

"To stay on thread, should I surmise that Southern schools missing out on this interpretation are lacking some heritage from SHaolin tradition? "

Not missing out but it was developed under a different set of circumstances.

"Those who say ARE (me basically), say that there is also another extremely important dimension to animals theory. That, descending from the lofty intellectual heights of taoist esoteric thought, animal theory has a real CONCRET meaning in practice of SOuthern Kung Fu martial arts issueing from SHaolin tradition"

There is indeed another dimension to Shaolin animals theory independent of Taoist thoughts. It is more akin to Hindu tradition ie Yoga.



"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by extrajoseph
Guohuen,

You said earlier:
“Tiger-metal, leopard-fire, dragon-water, snake-earth and crane-wood.”

And you also said now:
“I learned the animals and the elements as the destruction cycle. Fire destroys metal, metal destroys wood, wood destroys earth, earth destroys water and water destroys fire.”

Does that mean leopard destroys tiger, tiger destroys crane, crane destroys snake, snake, destroys dragon and dragon destroys leopard? In a physical or metaphysical sense or both?

Why the destruction cycle and not the nourishing cycle? I thought the Ng Ying Kuen is meant to cultivate (and not to destroy) the shen (dragon), the bone (tiger), the strength (leopard), the chi (snake) and the jing (crane).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ahhh (relief)... ExtraJoseph, you hit the nail onthe head! "

I will skip this, otherwise it will be a very long discussion.

"Not only is destruction and creation cycle part and parcel of martial arts theory (here Fierce Tiger would agree), but also translated through theory of 5 animals (FT does not agree). "

I think I know what you are getting at, but I will not comment on it yet.

"So in the "ARE" camp, extrajoseph has unwittingly taken a step to my side (hope you don't mind extrajoseph). The PRINCIPLES OF MOVEMENT (by movement I include legs, arms body and strikes of all types) using the "ARE NOT" camp's definition as a base (i.e. Dragon powerful, snake subtile, Tiger direct courageous bones, etc... much more detailed than this), can be translated into 5 elements principle of creation and destruction.

And so when faced with Tiger attack(courage, ferocious linear direct strike, type of trajectory (i.e. initial point of departure - trajectoy - point of impact) is loose then smash type impact etc... again way too long to describe here and besides part of our training..., the optimal response in terms of animals is............. "

2 words - too formulaic. Sorry, but I wish it is that simple.

"Of course, there are three caveates to this theory:
1. it assumes that each person has same initial level of energy (who cares how you define it).
2. Your response to to an attack "of energy level 4", is a response of at least "4" or else you will fail. (This means that I may know that I've got to dodge Mike Tyson's strike, but I am not quick enough and thus will be spoon fed for the rest of my life)
3. no movement or strike is purely one animal and in fact each animal can contain 4 others etc... fractal."

# 3 supported my above comment.

"The wonderful thing is that the type of strike/movement (elastic penetrating, impact, push/pull,) is DIRECTLY LINKED to Eastern medical theory to stimulate certain organs etc, or certain types chi cultivation (don't know enough about this though).

The whole reason why Pak Mei (Pei Mei) emphesises Tiger and Leopard (while of course still displaying oher three at times) is that basic technics tiger step leopard penetrating angle punch etc...(not just spirit of movement etc alhtough extremely important as well) ARE IN LINE with this theory.

But I have gone way over the line of what I can discuss on hte forum. "

I think you are on to something and is definitely worth exploring.

"So back to my thread:

If and only if the way I was taught is true, and if it was not invented recently but in fact is part of very old Shaolin tradition, how come only schools in vietnam and maybe some Hung Gar schools apparently have something like this? "

Secrecy and limited communication that strangle the arts.

I think you have made some interesting points. Great post. :)

Mantis108

[extrajoseph]

“When cutting up a tiger you have big bones but not much meat; hence, the believe that it is the bones that gives tigers their strength. Tiger bones as medicine is also based on this believe.”

“Leopard being a lighter more agile animal than the tiger, it can not afford to confront aggressor such a tiger to protect its food or territories. So it hunts and it plays hide and seek (take food up to trees where the tiger might have problem to reach). Its musculoskeletal structure is built with multi-tasking in mind. It has to be able to perform striking, grappling, and hauling all with the same set of musculoskeletal system.”

From what Mantis 108 said above, the classic was right; Tiger trains the Gwak or Bone – meaning that if we imitate the behaviour of a tiger, we will cultivate a strong set of structure or “bones”. Leopard trains the Lik or Strength – meaning that if we imitate the behaviour of a leopard, we will improve our strength or the ability to do things quickly. Tiger is about stability and structure and leopard is about movement and agility. The idea of Yin and Yang again and that makes sense for me.

Since Chinese thoughts are based on Ying and Yang and physical phenomenon always have an "inner" and an "outer"component, so for me Tiger and Leopard represented the tangible or the physical (the outer) while the Dragon (which trains the Shen or Spirit) and the Crane (which trains the Jing or Essence) represented the intangible or the metaphysical (the inner) part of Shaolin Kung Fu, with the Snake (which trains the Chi) being the link between the "form" and the "formless".

Well it still makes sense for me with or without the Five Elements. Maybe that is what the Shaolin Ng Ying Kuen is all about - trianing our Jing, Chi, Shen and Sun (body), Sou (hands), Fa (methods). We must not try to read too much into it.

[fiercest tiger]

That was well said and written my brother!

[EAZ]

agreed, good posts.

[cherrypraxis]

EAZ:

Je peux lire tes messages et echange avec CrimsonPhoenix (Salut Crimson, mon ami, si tu vois cela!) dans l'autre forum en francais. Mais, il m'a pris beaucoup de temps a finir parce que j'apprends francais depuis cinq mois seulement. Alors, escuses-moi mon francais pauvre, s'il te plait. J'apprends la langue et la culture encore. Aussi, l'ordinateur j'utilise maintenant n'a pas Microsoft Word. Je ne peux pas mettre les accents. Je suis desolee pour boucher ta langue!

J'ai peur quand j'entends le mot "authentique" parce qu'il a une connotation absolue. Je crois que ce chose--le mot "authentique"--n'est pas exister. Le mot meme a une dimension pudique. Ce n'est pas bon pour quelqu'un comme moi qui n'aime pas les choses pudiques. Mais, je sais que tout peut avoir une dimension pudique. Comme ce que nous Anglais ou Americains dittent, "It's a double-edged sword."

Je viens de quitter mon ecole de Hung Gar parce que le sifu est une personne mauvaise. C'est une longue histoire...
Mais, je serai prendre Ba Gua bientot...en fait, je commence ce soir...

---

Sorry all, I got sidetracked... =)

This post doesn't necessarily pertain to the thread but seeing that most people who have posted are learned men, this might be of interest...

I only have very little exposure to Hung Gar and to Chinese arts in general but many of the concepts are familiar to me through other avenues...myths, ancient cultures and philosophy. It seems that the number 5 is a number that contains both yin and yang elements from what I gather (reading this forum). What immediately came to mind is that prior to and during the Western Renaissance, the number 5 is a number that contains both Man and Woman, namely, the numbers 2 and 3...is this coincidental? I'm thinking not though it is apparent that Western civilizations as we know them today are slowly arriving at a Golden Age that those of the Ancient Worlds have long ago discovered.

Because of this parallel conceptual framework, it seems more than likely, from what I've learned before and what I'm learning now, that, as EAZ and a few others suggest, the five elements and the five animals are related though my limited knowledge cannot prove or even show any conclusive argument regarding this matter.

Also, in one of the threads pertaining to Internal Martial Arts, the one dealing with sex and chi, there is another parallel conceptual framework that goes beyond cultural boundaries. The argument posed is that to keep chi in, one must avoid sexual intercouse (for males, of course). In a leap of insight, I recalled the ancient Sumerian/Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh which predates almost any "Western" text, one of the main characters, Enkidu, a beast-man as strong as the gods themselves, lost all his strength and energy upon copulating with a woman. Sounds familiar with taoist practices, n'est-ce pas?

Sorry, folks...I couldn't help myself in posting such off-topic thoughts...

[mantis108]

Hi Fiercest Tiger & Eaz,

Thank you very much , my friends. :)

Hi JosephX,

I think you have got it.

Hi Cherrypraxis,

In the study of I Ching, the number system 0 to 10 (some paid attention up to 9) was covered. In a way, it is similar to the ancient Greek (they love Math/Goemetry with their philosophies as well) . I Ching is also often used to explain the Qi phenomena. But then you are getting into highly esoteric Taoist stuff. There is a correlation ( a very strong one) between spiritually and sexuality in the human realm. That in a way is Karma, not much most people can do about it. In Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism, there are methods to harness the sexual energy. Being celibate is the primary requisite (I have personally test it out). There are theories explicable with the I Ching. But it will be off topic here. So may be some other thread is more appropiate. BTW, human brains are wired the same way. It is the different circumstances in life that changes everything. It is not the color of the skin ( western people or eastern people) but the content (brain/internal & education/external) of the "character" (person). A lot of time is pride and prejudice that stop us from learning. Sorry about the rant, you have made some good points in your posts. :)

Mantis108

[extrajoseph]

Cherrypraxis,

To the Chinese, number 5 represents the agent for the completion of the transformation of Chi in nature. That is as you said it, the coming together of the Yin and Yang (Being French you said Man and Woman. I like it better, it gives the whole thing an extra dimension).

If you study the Luoshu Diagram (the 3 X 3 Magic Square) where all the numbers added up to 15, you will see 5 in the middle linked up all other pairs making up to 10. Since 10 represented the completion of a full cycle and 5 links them all up, 5 is the agent for fulfilment.

I think that is why we have the Five-Animal Form (Ng Ying Kuen) and Ten-Animal Kuen (Sup Ying Kuen) in Choy Lee Fut and not some other numbers. Numerically, these two forms represents the bring together of all the other forms.

JosephX

[guohuen]

Joseph X. Please explain the luoshu diagram. This is facinating.
T.M.

[Yum Cha]

EAZ,

As another piece of your puzzle, our Sifu says our Pak Mei is not Shaolin. He is definate about that. Less definate about being buddhist though, lots of mixing he says.

We do not have the 5 Animals teaching, per se, from him, but we do have discussions about Tiger and Leopard, and some of us do the pattern Ng Ying Kuen.

Our Animals:

Tiger, fierce and strong, moves straight in and kills. Leopard, more elusive, more lateral movement and grabbing, tangling to disable and kill. More circular. (I'll buy a bit of yang and yin action herein, from a certain viewpoint)

Dragon we refer to not as "The Dragon" but more towards the Dragon style of Lam Yew Gwai, which involves more waist rotation and a more solid powerful attack, fierce as a Tiger, but not as fluid or loose. Big Yang. As demonstrated in the pattern Ying Jou Lin Que.

We seldom if ever speak of Crane or Snake.

The Elements are part of our heritage, but Sifu doesn't interest himself much in them. Or at least I have discovered from my questions. He comes from a bare-knuckle background and looks at things from that perspective. He was in his early 30's when his Sifu died, and was fearsome at that time.

Mind you, it is a bit of a struggle with our language problems, I have learned from physical not verbal teaching.

Mantis,

I'm told our branch has a bit more Dragon Style in it than other lineages. :D
Sifu said he used to drink tea with Sifu Chau Fook in HK before he died. I assume that means some friendship.

In reference to your comments and to some of the other members of the board. Would you agree that the 5 elements theory and how they can be applied to fighting are a fishing pole, as opposed to fish?

We are talking about "the imortals" still, yes?

FT
Yau Kung Mun is certainly more Shaolin than Pak Mei, how does all this come together with what you were taught in your last years with Sifu Leung Cheung? How does it mesh with the study you did in Daoism?

A very interesting thread, thanks to all involved for not only their contributions, but their spirit.

(EAZ, I'll burn joss for you :D :D )

[fiercest tiger]

i was told exactly what mantis 108 has mentioned although i see the bak mei forms as the tiger and leopard style and the real ykm as the dragon,snake and crane of its internal workings.

5 elements is the angles and attacking of the dim ma/yuet points of each move. it should brake down the internal energy of your opponent!!

that makes sense.:)

[extrajoseph]

Guohuen,

The Luoshu Tuo or the River Luo Diagram is a basis for a lot of Chinese esoteric teachings including the internal art of the Bak Gwa Patterns and the Guo Gung (Nine Palaces) Steppings. The diagram or the magic square looks like this:

4 9 2
3 5 7
8 1 6

We can see the two diagonal pairs of 4 + 6 and 2 + 8 = 10, and the two cardinal pairs of 3 + 7 and 1 + 9 = 10, with the 5 in the middle joining them all together to make 15.

The Later Heaven Bak Gwa is presented by the numbers:

4 = Xun
9 = Li
2 = Kun
3 = Zhen
7 = Dui
8 = Gen
1 = Kan
6 = Qian

Figures 1 - 9 represented the Guo Gung.

We walk the Bak Gwa and Guo Gung according to the energy pattern hidden in these numbers. It is a meditative way for the advanced CLF practitioners to train their footwork and stepping strategy for attack and retreat.

JosephX

[cherrypraxis]

mantis108,

Though I've heard of the I-Ching referenced numerous times, I'm not quite sure what it is except that it is "the book of changes" that people use for philosophical treatises and/or soothsaying. I've just started Ba Gua and did some preliminary research covering the superficial basics...i.e. that Ba Gua's movements are actually based on the I-Ching.

Actually, my fascination with martial arts stems from the "esoteric" since my introduction to it a few years back appeared to be on that ground. It would be fantastic if you opened a new thread on I-Ching theory since it is probably misplaced in this thread. From reading a number of threads, however, it seems that most people are more keen on application rather than theory and so I fear a miscommunication of sorts. Also, can you recommend a translation? Thanks...


extrajoseph:

Thanks for addressing my out-of-topic side comment. I wasn't sure whether my comments would be received warmly. I'm glad I posted anyway and I'm not just addressing the figurative wall. ;)

I have actually seen this diagram that you speak of but I had no idea that it has that name and concept. That's amazing! By any chance, is this from the I-Ching as well?

As I've stated to mantis, I've just started Ba Gua. You practice Ba Gua too, hmm?

As for my use of "Man and Woman," I am flattered that you think I am French. Actually, I've just been learning French for the past five months and I addressed something that EAZ and CrimsonPhoenix were speaking of in another thread. ;) I can only hope that EAZ excuses my butchering his language as I am still learning it...

[extrajoseph]

Cherrypraxis,

You have got me fooled I thought you are French! What you asked is relevant to CMA. Yes, the Luo Shu diagram is part of the I Ching and it has influenced Chinese culture deeply and many things that we do can be traced back to its thinking.

I do not practise Baguaquan as such, I do Choy Lee Fut, which is a southern Shaolin system that has forms and “lian kung” (training) methods based on the I Ching as well. I got interested in this discussion because we have the full Five-Animal Forms as well as the full Ten-Animal Forms and also the 9 Bak Gwa Forms in the advanced level. I often wonder where the philosophy underlying these forms comes from. Now it is much clearer for me after these discussions.

My research during the weekend showed that the Ng Ying Kuen was first introduced by Buk Yuk-Fung during the late Song and early Yuan Dynasty. He wrote a classic called “Ng Kuen Jing Yao” (The Essential Requirements of the Five Fists) and explained clearly the characteristic of the Five-Animal Form. It is interesting to note that there was no mention of the Five Elements in his writing, so IMHO, whatever connections people made between the Five Animals and the Five Elements were done after his writing and teaching.

Since he and his friends Lee Song and Monk Gok Yuen (1224-1232) instigated the last revival of the Shaolin Temple Kung Fu, the Ng Ying Kuen became the core teaching for most of the southern Shaolin systems nowadays including Choy Lee Fut. If not the core then it still played an important role to a varying degree.

However the Five Elements theory do played an important part in Shaolin Kung Fu also. It is used not with the Five Animals but with the way we classified different types of actions. For example, Pak Chui (Axe Cut) in CLF belongs to the Element Metal, because metal can cut like an axe to “pak” downward and Fan Jong (Upper Cut) belongs to the Element Fire because its action grows upward like a flame of a fire. Since according to the Weakening Cycle of the Five Elements Theory, a lot of Metal can weaken Fire, we can use a powerful Pak Chui (a lot of Metal) to overcome a weak Fan Jong (weak Fire). However, if our Fang Jong is very strong, it can easily destroy a weak Pak Chui, just like a strong Fire can melt any Metal according to the Controlling Cycle of the Five Elements Theory.

So we can see, even though they are not related or need not be related, the Five Animals and the I Ching theories can help us understand our chosen arts better. Esoteric theories are very useful and practical after all.

Merci beaucoup, mon ami! (This is all I got to show after 5 years of high school French!) I hope this all makes sense to you even though you don’t do CLF.

JosephX

[EAZ]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
EAZ,

As another piece of your puzzle, our Sifu says our Pak Mei is not Shaolin. He is definate about that. Less definate about being buddhist though, lots of mixing he says.

AGREED. THIS IS AS I AM TAUGHT.(Pak Mei comes from Shaolin traditions but of course is not Shaolin. )


Our Animals:

Tiger, fierce and strong, moves straight in and kills. Leopard, more elusive, more lateral movement and grabbing, tangling to disable and kill. More circular. (I'll buy a bit of yang and yin action herein, from a certain viewpoint)

SAME HERE

Dragon we refer to not as "The Dragon" but more towards the Dragon style of Lam Yew Gwai, which involves more waist rotation and a more solid powerful attack, fierce as a Tiger, but not as fluid or loose. Big Yang. As demonstrated in the pattern Ying Jou Lin Que.

SAME HERE

We seldom if ever speak of Crane or Snake.


SAME HERE

FT
Yau Kung Mun is certainly more Shaolin than Pak Mei, how does all this come together with what you were taught in your last years with Sifu Leung Cheung? How does it mesh with the study you did in Daoism?

WHY IS YKM MORE SHAOLIN THAN PAK MEI?


There is not such a big difference after all. We all agree here anyways that Tiger and Leopard and associated values and principles are core of Pak Mei.

I guess I am also trying to figure out (once gain, will <i ever find the solution?) why HK Pak Mei is so closed in guard and in standing position with a relatively narrow spectrum of movement types, and in Vietnam, the stances start lower and spectrum of movement types is larger.

To what extent is this an addon in Vietnam? SInce Pei Mei came to Vietnam in the 1930s, without any influence from HK Pak Mei styles, I am trying to determine if the guy who brought Pak Mei to Vietnam influenced the style himself, or if he adopted sino-viet tradition of 5 elements/aniamsl theory, or if they practiced Pak Mei differently in different time periods.

I was hoping that by elucidating the link between 5 animals and elements with other prationers, I might get a bit more of the bigger picture.


Thanks all.

[fiercest tiger]

EAZ

"I guess I am also trying to figure out (once gain, will <i ever find the solution?) why HK Pak Mei is so closed in guard and in standing position with a relatively narrow spectrum of movement types, and in Vietnam, the stances start lower and spectrum of movement types is larger."

FT

I definetely believe that there is no such thing as a fighting stance. When I say this I don't mean "on guard" like the bak mei closed centerline hand position. Not everything starts or finishes here. Personally, your attack is your guard. If you have to have a guard stance to start a fight, if the other person is a good martial artist he can easily figure out how you will defend or set you up to defend in a certain way. Therefore you will have no defense.

I do not know the masters name that took bak mei to Vietnam, but I heard there was three disciples of CLC. One went to Vietnam, the other one was the Yau Kung Mun Grandmaster Har Hon Hung, and I can't think of the other ones name. Now, the way I see it, I think each teacher knew their own weaknesses and strong points for their fighting stance. This all depends on what knowledge they were taught of body gates. It depends on how good the teacher was with the gate theories. This will dictate what type of stance they would perfer to use.

Does this make sense? Im not saying that on guard stance is bad, but it is very limited with technique. Especially if your strong techniques are moves that come in towards your centerline. Now do you understand? Does that make sense now?

This is a good thread, I hope that we can keep it rolling!:)

Take care

FT
:D

[fiercest tiger]

very good post mate!

yes what you say is correct about the elements, in the way they can flow and destruct the opponent, by cancelling each others technique as you have mentioned.:)

cheers
FT

[EAZ]

I agree with all that you say (although I think I have much less fighting experience than you do). There is no mould that one should adopt when fighting.

Another way to express my (slight and only intellectual) dissaray is:

The basic exercices and way of doing things in Vietnam is laced with EAstern medical theory. We move in one way when we begin, not so much as immediately be efficient in fighting but in tuning the body: develope flexibility or coordination etc. in this sense forms in vietnam are a bit more flowery, all things considered, when compaired to HK Pak Mei, which teaches you "only" the bare essentials of Pak Mei fighting technic. In VN, from more ornate movement (that may also serve to develop a specific kind of strengh and thus exegerated for instance) I've got to derive fighting technics (although this is not true of advanced forms as much.

For example, in monk takes of robe, HK schools make a very short compact movement: upper body moves very slightly to the side. When we are taught it, he actually pivot upper body 90° to side, very ample movement, before exhaling and pushing in front.

the VN way has NO COMBAT value. However, practied enough and sublimed, i.e. reduced to its siplest expression like HK Pak Mei does from the beginning, power generation is tredendous. Just like oing forms low to the ground and trying to be fast. Of course you are not as fast as when you do forms stading up like HK Pak Mei does off the bat. BUT, once you start practice standing up after low training we all know the benefits.

Everything in VN Pei Mei is like that: the cost is straying away from direct combat application and thus running the risk of getting lost in my opinion. But it provides very good development for body and mind.

(One side explanation for this given to me was that staying closed and applying TTFC oen develops health problems in chest and internal organs. I hav noticed this to some extent as well).


FT: You were told of 3 students, one of which the originator of YKM if I understand correctly. I'm certain there were not 2 who went to VN! So probably the right person. (although there was a mysterious other practioner who died at 110 yrs old chinese in VN who was called "Red River" or "Lava of Volcano" and who did NOT learn from CLC)


When did YKM learn from CLC, when did he leave him to go his own way? Perhaps we can corroborate dates.

[fiercest tiger]

well the yau kung mun grandmaster started the system in 1924, so i guess he was way before that. he was a sifu in bak mei under clc for many years and was considered one of his best disciples at that time. He opened up the "Yuet Sing Sports Club" in canton around 1930...is this the pearl river martial arts club in english? yuet sing?

yum cha may have some more info on this too?

All i know is our grandmaster was one of the old school of clc, the 1st generation of students that was taught with the hakka people i was told!!

hope this helps

FT:)

ONE WENT TO VIETNAM ONLY I BELIEVE!:confused:

[extrajoseph]

Now that I have done some research, I feel confident enough to answer your origin questions for this thread:

a) Is it fair to say that 90% of Southern styles such as those just mentioned come from this Southern Shaolin tradition?

A: Yes, a large percentage of the southern styles do come under the influence of the Five Animals theory of the Shaolin tradition, each been influenced to varying degree depending on its evolution and development. It seems to me from the feedback we have in this forum, only Choy Lee Fut took on board all the animals with individual form for each animal as well as the Ng Ying Kuen. CLF also expanded the Five Animals (Ng Ying) to the Ten Animals (Sup Ying) thus completed the numerology of 10 as the number of fulfilment of a complete cycle.

b) If yes, did the theory of 5 animals have any bearing on their creation? (Apparently it did in SOME cases)?

A: I am not familiar with other styles, but for CLF, the Ng Kuen or Five Fists (Animals) of Bak Yuk-Fung do formed the core of its system, with the advanced level forms being over 90% related to the animals.

c) How come most schools do not integrate knowledge/theory of all 5 animals today, instead just super specialising in 1-2 types of techniques, thus perhaps missing out on some things?

A: As knowledge filtered down from the Shaolin Temple, the Five Animals tradition got weaken or broken up due to persecution, time constrains, secrecy, tyranny of distance, branch out of a lineage and many other reasons. May be some chose to become specialised and some lost its knowledge along the way, we can never know for sure. The founder of CLF, Chan Heung, had studied for more than 20 years with 3 teachers from the Shaolin Temple lineage before he set up his own system. He spent more than 10 years with the Shaolin Monk Choy Fook in Law-Fo Shan alone, thus enabling the Five Animals tradition to survive intact and integrated fully into the system.

Please don’t get the idea that I think CLF is more superior to other southern styles, what I am trying to say is the tradition of the Five Animals has definitely remained intact in our system that is all.

JosephX

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
well the yau kung mun grandmaster started the system in 1924, so i guess he was way before that. he was a sifu in bak mei under clc for many years and was considered one of his best disciples at that time. He opened up the "Yuet Sing Sports Club" in canton around 1930...is this the pearl river martial arts club in english? yuet sing?

yum cha may have some more info on this too?

All i know is our grandmaster was one of the old school of clc, the 1st generation of students that was taught with the hakka people i was told!!


Aha ! My understanding is that Tang Hué bac had a school open "for many years before wwII". He was a practioner of Choi Lee Fut before getting his head kicked in my CLC and then becoming his student. In vietnam, he is widely regarded as one fo the most dangerous people of his generation, hands down.

Yum Cha: your imput would be great here.

[EAZ]

Originally posted by extrajoseph

A: As knowledge filtered down from the Shaolin Temple, the Five Animals tradition got weaken or broken up due to persecution, time constrains, secrecy, tyranny of distance, branch out of a lineage and many other reasons. May be some chose to become specialised and some lost its knowledge along the way, we can never know for sure.

I don't know how you researched this, but I am heartened that you arrive at the same conclusion as I have.

Vietnam, which was for a long time a kind of backwater province of China, seems to have been a bit frozen in time, and thus kept some of this system/world view alive in martail arts.

Great, thanks for your help. If you care to post a bit about your sources, please go ahead.


EAZ

[EAZ]

Do you know in what province CLC and YKM studied together?

I have heard soemone say that that SPM, PM and Dragon were developed at the same time within spitting distance of one another (just an expression of course...) and that this explains the similarities of practice.

HOWEVER,

this is the case for Dragon style and HK PM which really have a lot of direct correspondance (thanks for demo this weekend Nerval)

It is not the case for Guigzhou PM (from what I gather) or of VN PM which, while sharing many things are more heterogeneous.

So by knowing where YKM studied, presumably with THB (the guy who went to VN), we can see if this was before the criss crossing between DRagon SPM and HK PM styles and also in another place geographically.


quote below from a long forgotten thread that was kindly forwarded to me:

" Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hang[ing] out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the "Wai Yeung" village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlas's / internet) and population size.
Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.
It appears that all three were born at the same time as well (LYK in 1876, CLC in 1880). I speculate Lao Sui was born around 1878, when I do the math subtracting various dates posted in his life 1878 - 1942?)
LYK and CLC were known as "the Two Tigers of East River" but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the "Hai Fung" Monk (who IKF names as "Huang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named "Liang Hua Su Ren" who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen)"


Well...?

[mantis108]

"Mantis,

I'm told our branch has a bit more Dragon Style in it than other lineages.
Sifu said he used to drink tea with Sifu Chau Fook in HK before he died. I assume that means some friendship. "

Ah... Speaking of "Yum Cha" with Sifu, that is one of the best experiences that all CMAists would cherrish. I do miss that a lot. There was a friendship between our Sifus, that wonderful. :D

"In reference to your comments and to some of the other members of the board. Would you agree that the 5 elements theory and how they can be applied to fighting are a fishing pole, as opposed to fish?

We are talking about "the imortals" still, yes? "

I think you have made one of the finest metaphors in Chinese martial arts. LOL...

Have you heard of the store about how King Wen of Chau dynasty (one of the developer of I Ching) met his Prime Minister/teacher Keung Tai Kung. That is the story of Tai Kung Dui Yu (the Grand Duke fishing).

Tai Kung, who was also an immortal, used a fishing pole that had no hooks. People laughed at him. Some suggested that he should use fishing pole with hooks if he ever wanted to catch fish. He simply just smiled and said "I am not fishing for fish (food ), I am fishing for Emperors and nobles (country/his ideal or Tao)." :) The moral of the story?Eat to live don't live to eat.

We certainly can apply the 5 Elements directly into KF. The Five Animals are horizontal meaning their parallel to the human animal. That makes it more apparent and easy to adapt. 5 Elements are vertical which means it is hidden (as techniques, tactic, strategies, etc) and you will have to go deeper. When you are capable of both horizontal and vertical thinking, you are in fact capable of 3 dimensional thinking (abstract thoughts) which is one of the training objectives of the I Ching. Martial arts is about educating an indiviual physically, mental and spiritually. That Bak Mei's curriculum has covered well.

It would seem that there are lots of interest in the I Ching and 5 Elements theories. May be we should open a thread on them. Since we have pretty much covered the Five Animals, may be it is a good idea to cover the 5 Elements on a different thread.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

May be this thread will help you to begin your search:

I Ching Link on this forum (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=8235)

"mantis108,

Though I've heard of the I-Ching referenced numerous times, I'm not quite sure what it is except that it is "the book of changes" that people use for philosophical treatises and/or soothsaying. I've just started Ba Gua and did some preliminary research covering the superficial basics...i.e. that Ba Gua's movements are actually based on the I-Ching. "

Chinese martial arts are fascinating because they are unique in applying/expressing Chinese worldview in infinite number of ways. The best study of Chinese worldview would be from a main source the I Ching (Classics or Books of Change). Divination (soothsaying) is only an area of study and is a very small part of this book although alot of people took the liking to divination because of the empowering experience that it gives. But that is just a small vehicle.

"Actually, my fascination with martial arts stems from the "esoteric" since my introduction to it a few years back appeared to be on that ground. It would be fantastic if you opened a new thread on I-Ching theory since it is probably misplaced in this thread. From reading a number of threads, however, it seems that most people are more keen on application rather than theory and so I fear a miscommunication of sorts. Also, can you recommend a translation? Thanks... "

If you are interested, I certainly will be glad to post something about it. :)

Mantis108

[extrajoseph]

“When you are capable of both horizontal and vertical thinking, you are in fact capable of 3 dimensional thinking (abstract thoughts) which is one of the training objectives of the I Ching.”

Mantis 108,

I would have thought both horizontal and vertical thinking are 2-dimensional abstract thoughts, to make it 3-dimensional (come alive) we need to consider the practical applications. When we have the inputs from the x, y and z-axis we will know where we stand (wisdom).

It is not a criticism, it is a clarafication. I really enjoyed your posting, I just like to highlight the importance of integrating theory with practice and abstract thoughts with real action, otherwise the I Ching is just another book.

JosephX

[Yum Cha]

Hi EAZ,
Nice to hear you share so many of the same interpretations as we do, there are many brothers here.

Perhaps you don't remember, but this discussion on the movement to Vietnam was one of the first threads we shared. I only know what my 2 Sifu's said, and I was able to transliterate. You seem to believe there was an earlier disciple of PM than the one I mention, and I have taken that into my thinking, but without any futher information as yet.

CLC had three students as a young man, before his sons were of age. Here are my notes, in all their lingual confusion:

1. Har Hon Hung

2. Yau Yen Wah (Malaysia) (possibly Yau Yan Ngoh?)

3. Cheng Kwan Hop or Chun Wai Bok (VIETNAM) ?

(Tang Khai Minh called Tang Hue Bac?) a. Tang Hué Bac died at a very young age, 52 in 1956
3.1 Diep Quoc Luong (Tai Chuc Cam)
3.1.1 Tran Ngoc Dinh (Italian Connection)

Master Dang (possibly Tang Khai Minh above?)
3.1 Master Diep Quoc Luong (Tai Chuc Cam?)
(possibly Yep Kwock Leung who taught Chau Phu?)
3.2 Chau Phu (Australia)

This session of CLC's life took place in Guangzhou, before they fled to HK after the war under pressure from the Reg Guard, who looked upon Kung Fu as counter-revolutionary.

That is why, I assume, that VN Pak Mei and Guangzhou Pak Mei are more alike. It was learned from a young CLC.

Sifu says, as a young man you start low stances, as you get older you rise." This makes obvious sense, but perhaps the lesson runs deeper.

The reason both FT and I Har Hon Hung, but not the same style is that when my Si Gung, Liang Sui Hoy studed from HHH, he was likewise a younger man and had yet to move into the later studies he made i.e. YKM. Liang Sui Hoy also spent time with CLC and LYG as well.

I think most people know this, but Lam Yew Gwai and Cheung Lai Cheun were cousins (or related in one way or another) and learned their art together as they grew up. Dragon Style and Pak Mei still share the bond, right Mantis?

:D

[guohuen]

Thanks Joseph!

[JAZA]

Congratulations, excellent thread

[cherrypraxis]

Mantis,

thanks for the link to the i-ching/tao te ching thread. i skimmed through it a bit. it's been a long day and i'm getting cross-eyed from reading! by all means, start a new thread if it isn't too bothersome. on the other hand, i don't know how many other people would be interested in it.

-cherrypraxis

[EAZ]

Yes I do remember and appreciate that early thread, thank you for reminding me though!

I agree with everything that you say. I have asked a training brother in Vietnam to verify certain things regarding Cheng Kwan Hop or Chun Wai Bok, just to make sure. I have about 5 pictures of him at different ages and if he is 52 on the last page he looks about 70 (usually the reverse with Asians...). He may of had some kind of withering desease.

Also: in one picture I have of him sitting with 50 students and a banner overhead, with French official writing on the wall (therefore pre-54), he does not look as old as int he latter pictures I have of him.

To have so many students, he probably arrived in VN a while before 1949. You say he died at age 52. Is yur source for this infomation Andy or do you have another source as well?

(Our new and improved web site should be online in a couple of days, with pictures).

Well I must say that I have learnt some good things here on this forum.

[fiercest tiger]

Do you know andy sifu of wah nam? if you like i can ask him a question as he is a close friend or mine and kung fu brother!

Andy SIFU'S bak mei is very good, and he is a walking history book on bak mei. He has many forms you may never know of or ever see on this art!:)

He is BAK MEI..LOL:D

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Do you know andy sifu of wah nam? if you like i can ask him a question as he is a close friend or mine and kung fu brother!

Andy SIFU'S bak mei is very good, and he is a walking history book on bak mei. He has many forms you may never know of or ever see on this art!:)

He is BAK MEI..LOL:D

Sure that would be nice ! I think we exchanged thoughts once briefly on this subject but any additional information would be priceless (hence free :-)

If memory serves, he is both student of Tai Chek Cam and of Cheung Bin Lam lineages. However I have never seen his practice and thus do not know if he privileges one manner of Pei Mei or another.

I also think he told me that 5 animals/elements not a part of his training. As 5 animals/elements common in many if not most chinese styles practiced in Vietnam, I thought maybe he was more a CBL kind of guy.

Please do ask him though. (I wonder once again though if Yum CHa 's information comes from Andy or from another source).

Thanks,

EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

Yum Cha has never met andy sifu!

He has stayed underground for a long time!;)

[Yum Cha]

Yes EAZ, most of my info on the Viet lineage comes from Andy, but there is also another vietnamese site (linked on my website) and I have snippets from other comments as well - thus the multiple languages/pronunciations of the names I forwarded.

FT, I may have met Andy, I'm not sure. Many years ago (10?) we used to get together with Chau Phu a couple of times a year and he may have been amongst the students then, I don't know. Back in the days of the NSWCMA.

We did a few big lion dances together, and some Dragon too. Darling Harbour, and the opening of the initial stages of Homebush Bay. They visited us at the temple a couple of times too.

I would like to meet him, as he comes well recommended by you, but the circumstances have yet to present themselves.

[fiercest tiger]

Andy Sifu was behind all the scenes if i recall, he wasnt in the nswcma. He isnt under sifu chow anymore but i dont think he would have met you yet, may have seen you only!:)

ill ask him if he has met you next time we chat!

FT

[Yum Cha]

Sorry to have overlooked this.

I had never heard the story of the fishing pole, but I love it. Thanks again for the info.

A 5 elements thread would be very welcome, but unfortunately, I'm not the person to start it. I'm too ignorant on the topic.

Perhaps some of you other Taoists / Pak Mei-ists would be willing to develop it further? It seems CLF also carries some of this philosophy... Hung Gar....

Once again, congratulations on the fine thread lads.

[mantis108]

Hi Cherrypraxis,

Definitely will futher on the I Ching discussions later. Thanks

Hi Yum Cha,

I think there was some relation between GM LYK and GM CLC. I believe they were cousins?

This thread is great. I guess we could have another thread about the 5 Elements later. :)

BTW, the fish pole story also inspired a Kung Fu move (not in Bak Mei though) and a lion dance chang (green).

Regards

Mantis108

[Yum Cha]

Yes, cousins was my understanding too, thanks for the confirmation.

Fishing Pole - does this figure into "Look Dim Boon Jao Sau Dio Yew" or

Half-past 6 left handed fishing pole?

I always wondered why it was called "fishing pole." Is this part of your training too?

[sanjia]

Mantis108 : My Sifu was the late Chow Fook. I am from one of the HK Lung Ying/Bak Mei Kwoon

A bit late on this but........
My teacher was also taught by Chow Fook, as well as Ho Bun Un.
We have a set which he attributes to him, I have heard it called Mui Fa (plum blossom) and simply Chow's set, do you have similar?
It seems to be a mixture of Bak Mei and Lung Ying (mostly a sub set of Mang Fu).

Mark S

[mantis108]

Hi Yum Cha,

No that's not in our curriculum. I can't help but notice you mentioned something on the Mang Fu Ha Shan thread that it impressed me as there seems to be a bit of Hung Fut influence in your lineage as well. Forgive me if I have mistaken, and I apologize in advance.

Sanjia,

Interesting, I have not heard of that. Love to see it someday. Thanks for the info. How's training? Please send my regards to your Sifu and everyone in your kwoon. Thanks :)

Regards

Mantis108

[Yum Cha]

Now you got me. I think you must be confused. I've been lurking on the Mang Fu Ha Shan thread, but have made no contribution, other than a wise crack or two.

Hung Fut? Wouldn't know it if I saw it.

[mantis108]

Hi Yum Cha,

I think I confused you with Eaz. Sorry, my friend. :)

Mantis108

[Oso]

Bit late on this as I haven't trained any southern in quite a while
so I don't hit these boards, but thought I would toss this in:

Tiger --- Earth
Crane --- Fire (air)
Leopard --- Wood
Snake --- Water
Dragon --- Gold (metal)

Dragon and Gold were the culmination of the art (hung gar)
and were supposed to bring the previous teachings together.
Dragon was all the animals and none, providing a mutability
factor to the mix and Gold could either be hard and sharp
as a blade or soft and hot like, well, molten gold. (maybe a
reference to early taoist alchemy???)

like i said, it's been over t 13 years since my hung gar training
and I only trained for 5 or 6 years but since I was given a slightly
different version of the animal/element pairing I thought I'd share.

Mantis 108, didn't know you were also a southern stylist.
I would definitely like to meet you one day, your posts are
always FULL of info. Yellowknife is a bit far away though!!

matt

[mantis108]

Thanks for the fine post. :)

Yeah, my first arts are Lung Ying and Bak Mei. Although now I major in Taiji Praying Mantis, I am always trying to stay in touch with my roots. I would love to meet you someday in person as well (haven't seen you online for awhile). Yellowknife is really out of the way. Thank God for the internet. LOL... :D

Take care, my friend.

Robert(Mantis108)

[tomcat]

Hey Mantis,
Great thread ,everyones knowledge here is so good , I'm sure I'm not the only one out here just reading along and being enlightened!
You should definatly start an I-ching and a 5-element theory thread!
;)

[Bao Jong]

I have come to belive some of the SPM techniques originate from Hung Gar. For example the Yui Kui (shake off bridge) technique. Hope this helps.

[tomcat]

I think many of the southern styles use many of the same techniques,probably due to Shaolin origins,sharing of knowledge, and the fact that all systems tend to favour what works.
Many of the techniques found in Hung-gar ,are also in the S. Shaolin,Lohan,and CLF forms that I Know !