Predator vs. Prey

[Knifefighter]

"All animals grapple -
well all predators. Tigers, Lions, Wolves all will grab hold of prey and bring it down to the ground to finish it off. Prey will lash out with it's hooves; but
predators will grab on. Rule of thumb - Prey strikes - Predators grapple. There- that should end the wrestler vs striker debate once and for all."

Got this from Michael E. Reilly's web site. Food for thought.

[Water Dragon]

Go tell that to Mike Tyson.

[JWTAYLOR]

Well, I guess Mr. Reilly has never seen a venomous snake attack. :rolleyes:

JWT

[shaolinboxer]

Venomous snakes are predators, and they strike.

Scopions are predators, and they strike.

Big cats also walk on all fours, do you?

[Badger]

Silva is one mean deer!




Badger

[tnwingtsun]

Grab this...............

[Paul]

Eagles and falcons and such don't grapple.

How does Tyson do that combo? Jab, Jab, Chomp...yea I think that's it.

[Tigerstyle]

That doesn't really end the wrestler vs. striker debate. That wouldn't explain the rise in victory by KO, TKO or ref stoppage in MMA events (unless someone is going to say that the rules "favor strikers" ;) ).

Also, street thugs/criminals (could be considered "predators") generally use weapons (guns, knives, etc.) and those attacks could generally be considered "strikes".

It's an interesting analogy, but I don't agree that it "ends" anything.

[rogue]

I believe that hawks, eagles and scorpians hold and strike (ground and pound?) their prey.

[Tigerstyle]

LOL, badger!


Paul,
Eagles and falcons grab with their talons and lift their prey off the ground. That is closer to grappling than it is striking.

[red5angel]

Of all the toys I got to play with in the USMC, I cannot recall one that "grappled", and of all the effective ones, all of the strike!

[tnwingtsun]

Here we go........try to grab this

[red5angel]

you are my new favorite butt kicker!!!! nice pic man

[Jockwurst]

Tigers, wolves, etc have vicious claws and very sharp teeth. Humans have, evolutionarily speaking, lost these. If you want to go to the expense of having 2"canines implanted in your jaws and razor blades in your fingertips then I'd say that you would be the danged best grappler in the world. It is dangerous, academically speaking, to apply behavioral scemas accross species lines especially when dealing with species of higher cognition (us). A good comparison to humans would be a dog that had it's canines pulled, or a cat that has been declawed in such a situation. Humans can bite and claw but these injuries are seldom life thrteatening. When a tiger latches onto its prey death is almost always a forgone conclusion. And the intent is to kill so the tiger can continue to eat and reproduce, insuring the survival of the species. When hunting these predators humans did not grapple with them they developed weapons to effectively kill them from a relatively safe distance. And the predator/prey model you used involves a stronger opponent (Tiger) against a weaker one (gazelle) or any of the other mainstays of the tiger diet. You will find that infighting among predators themselves sometimes produces different martial behaviors because the playing field has been leveled. When predators hunt it is, many times, in packs and almost always against a weaker opponent. Expenditure of energy and risk are factors to consider. That is why they pick out the weakest ones along the margins of the herd to attack. I'm not saying that the hypothesis is wrong altogether but before you make lofty claims like this a little book knowledge might save you some trouble. Why not examine our closest(genetically speaking) relatives - chimpanzees. See how they fight each other. You find a lot of posturing, displays, and usage of rudimentary weapons but when a larger, more powerful opponent wanders into the area they dont get them into the gaurd and choke them out - they usually head for the trees!

[tnwingtsun]

If you're trying to say that to be a predator one must evolve from a striker to a groundfighter then you have no idea

what a real predator is.


Will Barbra Boxer not let you guys out of the caves??

[rubthebuddha]

and big cats that "grapple" with their prey also clean their own bûttholes with their tongue. go ahead and emulate that, too.

we don't have huge teeth and we don't have claws. rather, we have hands and feet, elbows and knees, and we can use the weapons we were given with. if that's by grappling with something, feel free. if it's striking, ditto. but don't think that because a hugely fanged and solidly clawed lion grabs onto it's prey's neck with its teeth and holds it there for a while to both kill the prey and to rest from its charge is the ideal way or even a legitimate metaphor for the grappling vs. striking argument.

[Paul]

Eagles and falcons grab with their talons and lift their prey off the ground. That is closer to grappling than it is striking.

sounds like striking to me!

A stooping peregrine is a hurtling wedge of streamlined feathers, its feet lying back against the tail and wings half-closed. At such speeds it delivers a fierce blow to the prey with a half-closed foot, the usual method of disabling or killing medium-sized and large prey. If the quarry is too heavy to carry, it is allowed to fall to the ground, and the bird lands beside it to feed. It catches lighter prey in midair or else strikes it down and then retrieves it. Small prey such as swallows or sandpipers are snatched in mid-flight with the talons

[Knifefighter]

"...before you make lofty claims like this a little book knowledge might save you some trouble."

This is not my claim, just something I got from the website of the person I cited in my post above (a little book knowledge in reading comprehension and retention might do you a bit of good). Like I said, just food for thought and discussion. Myself, I believe in a combination of striking and grappling. I don't have a preference for one or the other.

[red5angel]

We were on this thread like a 'pack of dogs on a three legged cat!'

[Badger]

Hey JWT,
Is your wienie dog a striker or a grappler?




Badger

[Jockwurst]

"a little book knowledge in reading comprehension and retention might do you a bit of good"

Whats this? Cant stand to get mobbed by dissenters here on the KFO forum? Not so pleasant when your the recipient huh? Your such a childish a$$hole knifefighter. And by the way I have a Masters Degree in Hydrology. What have you got? I hate it when obvious idiots get condescending.

[rubthebuddha]

jesus ****ing christ, man. you can jump on someone, but you don't have to stomp on him repeatedly. he did just offer it as food for thought.

knife: sorry i came across a bit *****y. the stick that's been up my bum lately may have just shifted.

[@PLUGO]

well... predators are also invisible ... Can see heat & have those nasty plasma guns as well as super sharp claws...

[Braden]

Funny thread. :)

Really though, it could spark some interesting conversation if you let it...

Personally, I would strongly agree with the foundational animal comparison underlying the quote. Although, to begin with, we've really got to define some terms which are thrown around all too loosely. It's impossible to discuss when no one agrees on basic definitions. For instance, what is grappling, and what is striking? People alternately use the word grappling to describe groundfighting, any submission/grasping/breaking technique, any technique at body contact range, or a range of techniques including throwing and sweeps. These are all pretty different.

For instance, I consider grappling to mean submission (or submission brought to it's extreme - choking, breaking, etc). For that reason, I would call myself a striker. However, the basis of my technique is to invade someone's space, and control them so their posture and balance are broken. So maybe I'm a grappler? But I don't use any submissions...

So far as the original animal example goes - I've never understood how anyone can consider 'striking' (in it's most limited definition - that being, maintaining distance to strike then retract; repeat) a viable combat strategy against anyone, except perhaps someone who you absolutely dwarfed in skill and attributes. From my point of view, if you want to defeat someone (or even prevent being defeated yourself) you HAVE to get in there and break their posture, that's how you win. And that's what these predators are doing. Although I agree with the original author's premises, I disagree with his argument. What these predators are doing bears (pun intended ;) ) absolutely no resemblance to, for instance, BJJ's strategy. Again, the confusion arises due to the neglect of properly defining our terms - 'grappling.' These predators are NOT going for submissions. These predators are NOT bringing something to the ground (except when it's allready defeated and it's time to eat). What they ARE doing is establishing dominant position, breaking their opponents posture, then aggresively attacking with their strongest weapon. So long as we're going to make this argument, this strategy is resembles much more strongly that advocated by say, baguazhang or silat than BJJ. Yes, it's true that you often see BJJ proponents advocating the 'ground and pound', which is more similar to what the animals are doing. However, I'm under the impression that in many cases this is contrary to the original principles of BJJ or grappling, and more an artifact of vale tudo - for example, I can think of several examples of someone ground and pounding from within their opponent's closed guard - surely not the approach advocated by BJJ, nor that which it's training addresses. Although, I will glady stand corrected, since my experience in the matter is quite limited. ;)

[old jong]

...Bof!...TROLL!:rolleyes:And even worse: Not even Ralek's caliber!:p Go back in your cage ...Predator.;)

[rubthebuddha]

i guess one thing i'd wholly believe could be gleaned from the human/predator comparison is that when a lion goes for its prey, it goes all out, because if it doesn't, it may not get another meal. the same idea should apply to us. if someone is threatening our life, we **** well better go all out, because if we don't, our chances of getting that next meal diminish greatly.

[Qi dup]

Wolves and cats use the tools they were given. It's hard to bite another animals neck when you are standing up. Interesting analogy, but it is not absolute.

[Tigerstyle]

Paul,
Thanks for the info! Would it be fair to assume that they grapple or strike as the situation/opponent dictates :) ?

[Mr. Nemo]

Yes, I enjoyed Fransisco "Chico" Bueno's methodical stalking of Igor Vovchanchyn. I also enjoyed the stealthy approaching, slaughtering, and devouring technique of John Lewis when he fought Jens Pulver.

Other examples of invincible grappler hunters stalking helpless striker prey are Dan Henderson vs. Renzo Gracie, Vanderlei Silva vs. Kazushi Sakuraba I, and my personal favorite - a ferocious Nobuhiko Takada vs. the cowering Mirko "Cro Crop" Filopovich.

Lemme see if I understand this guy's point - because Lions in the jungle tackle their prey, that means striking sucks? Maybe I'm just too stupid to follow this guy's logic. He sounds kind of like Matt "Monkeys are so strong because they do bodyweight exercises" Furey.

[Mr. Nemo]

On a related note - has anyone ever seen a group of lions try to take down a hippo? It's pretty god**** funny, the hippo'll be running for water with two or three lions clinging to its back.

Jockwurst: Christ you're annoying. Do you just lurk until Knifefighter shows up so you can flame him?

[Knifefighter]

================================================== =
"Whats this? Cant stand to get mobbed by dissenters here on the KFO forum? Not so
pleasant when your the recipient huh? Your such a childish a$$hole knifefighter. And by
the way I have a Masters Degree in Hydrology. What have you got? I hate it when obvious
idiots get condescending."
=================================================

Jockworst:

How can people be dissenting with me when it's not my opinion?. As I said before (your reading comprehension problem seems to be kicking in again), this is someone else's take, as I believe in both grappling and striking. Once again (s l o w l y for the reading impaired), I don't have a preference for one vs the other as each has its place in different situations. As a matter of fact, I pretty much agree with what most of the others are saying here.

A Masters in Hydrology? Is that supposed to be impressive? BTW, all my post graduate work was in the field of Exercise Science so I would guess that is probably more relevant to most discussions of the martial arts than is hydrology.


OJ:
Not a troll. I just thought the animal analogy was interesting, just as it is interesting to see the examples here of predators that don't "grapple".

BTW, did you consider this a troll because it contained an opinion that might not be true in the real world or because it was about grappling being "better" than striking?

[old jong]

This is good marketing! Take a look at this clip (http://www.gracieacademy.com.xohost.com/multimedia/inaction2vid.shtml).This does not means that my brand of soap does not cleans as white as your's! ;)

[rubthebuddha]

weird. speaking of soap, the only brand that has ever left a fimly residue on my skin was zest, the one soap that claims to not do so.

anyhoo, the video was blah, but it could have used something resembling structure or point.

[Shin]

I don;t know who this guy is, but they lack a basic knowledge of biology.

As people pointed out, not all predators grapple. The ones who grapple are those who are not capable of killing their prey with a single blow, and thus risk the possibility of the prey escaping.

I think that says more about the grappling vs striking than the original quote, wouldn't you? :)

BTW, my favorite animal is the crocodile. 3 out of 4 an animal hit square by a croc dies almost immediately. The fourth one gets dragged out into the water and death rolled. It's also notable that the 4th time generally occurs when the target animal is already in the water, crossing a river or some crap like that.

Looks like striking and grappling together works the best to me.

Man, I love watching a croc hit something. Sometimes, on discovery or animal planet, they show on that isn't slowed down. 1 second little baby wildebeest is drinking some water, then there's a huge spray of water, then there's no more wildebeest.

Nice.

[Jaguar Wong]

Have you guys ever seen two tigers fight? They use a mix of striking and grappling (well, as close to MMA as tigers can get anyway). Their strikes are very heavy handed, and come in vicious combos, then they move in for the takedown. It's pretty scary to think of what the business end of a tiger would look like to another tiger. :eek:

Also, dolphins are very aggressive strikers, and can do a lot of damage to sharks and other sea bullies (although I saw a discovery channel show that portrayed "evil dolphins" as well...it was weird seeing dolphins bully other sea creatures for fun).

As for the whole debate, I think it's odd how we like to use animals (particularly predators), to draw physical, mental, and sometimes tactical traits, but when it points to any semblance of grappling, we start looking for other striking animals. I know I did this, even though I do agree that the methods of predators are quite effective, unless you're the prey (which if you're training for self defense, that's kind of a given). hmmmm :)

This is an interesting debate once you scrape all the ego and testosterone out of the way.

BTW Shin, I've seen a croc hit a guy on the leg out of instinct, and didn't even grab onto the guy. He just wacked him with his upper jaw, and the guy had the most gruesome lacerations down his leg. That to me was impressive. Crocs indeed do have some tremendous power with their head, or their tail.

[Arioch7]

Lions frequently strike at thier prey breaking thier back and taking them down before they grapple.

I have to tell you that sounds an awful lot to me like striking someone very hard and then going in for the kill. I have no objections to that.

Cheetahs will make a running strike to thier preys neck usually, and as Braden stated Tigers tend to do both.

I have ONE very important doctrine that I believe in that is very simple. Use whatever works. If a situation calls for a strike and you HAVE to grapple because that is what you BELIEVE IN then you are a fool. The same goes for strikers.

I have seen many fighters and the ones that were at the top of my list tended to be flexible and let the situation dictate how they responded. IMHO, most situations call for a MIX of the two but that is how I train and it is PAINFULLY obvious to me.

I might remind people that Knifefighter is just posting something but I think you are getting a kick out of the thread... I am. :D

I find it amusing that this debate is STILL going on but I suppose that is the nature of the martial arts... "MY style is better then yours!", etc.

I liked the animal comparison though so I figured I would throw my two cents into the arena.

Oh, Jockwurst... lighten up a little bit man!

[Mr. Nemo]

Does anyone have those pictures of polar bears fighting? There was one of the polar bear on the left landing a mean right, one where he had the double underhooks, and he was pulling guard in the third one.

[Jockwurst]

I don't know? You tell me what a Masters in Geoscience from the University of Chicago is worth? Where did you go to school? No let me guess...Harvard, M.I.T. Yale, Oxford..etc... I'm sure you'll find some way to best that one or just create some imaginary place thats supposed to be super accredited and highly respected. knifefighter, I dare say that I make more as a state water manager than you do in whatever sorry field you ended up in. Go blow yourself a$$hole.

Oh does six figures mean anything to you. Again I repeat you're a joke. Your not even in the same ball park academically as I. Exercise science (giggle) wahtever.

[GinSueDog]

Jockwurst,
Dude, chill out. There is no need to start bragging about how much money you make on a public forum. If I were you, I'd consider editing your posts because they make you look like an @ss.-ED

P.S.-I have seen Knifefighter compete and I am pretty sure whether he chooses to grapple or strike, he could kick your @ss either way.

[Mr. Nemo]

Jockwurst, according to your profile your birthdate is April 27, 1985. Are you some kind of child prodigy or something, to have a degree at such a young age?

[Jockwurst]

I guess i should have looked at my profile at least once. I was born in 65 and I no longer live in Alabama. I'm in Vermont now. Typo. I'll go bring it up to date.

[Felipe Bido]

Someone asked for the bears' pics....

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Tigers, Lions, Wolves all will grab hold of prey and bring it down to the ground to finish it off. Prey will lash out with it's hooves; but
predators will grab on. Rule of thumb - Prey strikes - Predators grapple. There- that should end the wrestler vs striker debate once and for all."

Got this from Michael E. Reilly's web site. Food for thought.

Oh boy, this Reilly guy needs more time with the dicovery channel.
:rolleyes:
All the above animals use striking, clawing(nails) and biting(teeth;especially the wolf) to subdue their prey. NONE of the above have digits long enough to "grab". Big cats only hold down their prey long enough to bite into it. Most prey animals either run really fast or they have horns. When was the last time you saw a thomsons gazell(sp?) boxing?
Just goes to show, you can justify almost anything with a carefully worded anology. By most of the concensus here, clawing is not grappling. Yet, that is what all the above animals do.
Anacondas are the only animals that come to mind that actually grab to kill its prey. And, only on animals it can first bite on the neck. So, by the above statement clawing and biting are the ultimare martial arts. But neither are allowed in UFC. hmmmmmm interesting.

[Felipe Bido]

And two..

[anton]

Big cats use striking (biting clawing etc) to maim/kill their prey and grappling to prevent it from escaping.
To relate this analogy to real life: if I bit/tore someone's throat open, I'd let them escape - there is no need for me to hold him down, let him bleed to death then drag him up into a tree and eat him.

[Jockwurst]

So now YOUR the ultimate Knifefighter defender now? Sorry about the editing at this time of night I usually type without my contacts. Anyway my expertise is in mathematics, like most scientists I'm lost without a spellchecker. I'm sure knifefighter, if he is who he said he was, could kick my ass. But first he'd have to come to me and I would refuse to fight him because backstreet brawls are a bit beneath my social class. So then if he persisted it would be assault. Not a good idea considering my brother is one of the highest paid attorneys in the capital and on a first name basis with the Attorney Gen. By the time knife got out of the slammer he'd be singing a high tune and have half a dozen big, cuddly beotches on his buddy list. True power prevails.

[GinSueDog]

Jockwurst,

"Oh does six figures mean anything to you. Again I repeat you're a joke. Your not even in the same ball park academically as I. Exercise science (giggle) wahtever."

"I would refuse to fight him because backstreet brawls are a bit beneath my social class."

"my brother is one of the highest paid attorneys in the capital and on a first name basis with the Attorney Gen."



You are so sad...:rolleyes: -ED

[tnwingtsun]

"I have ONE very important doctrine that I believe in that is very simple. Use whatever works. If a situation calls for a strike and you HAVE to grapple because that is what you BELIEVE IN then you are a fool. The same goes for strikers."



Yup...........


"Jockwurst,
You are so sad"
GinSueDog


Maybe,but he's funny as $hit!!

"P.S.-I have seen Knifefighter compete and I am pretty sure whether he chooses to grapple or strike, he could kick your @ss either way."



"I AM PRETTY SURE"


Sad thing is(not sad for the gene pool) theres ALOT of people
that thought they were lions,tigers and bears that assumed room temp that have.........."I AM PRETTY SURE" on their grave stone.


Nuf said....

[straight blast]

I think we can all learn a lot about the fighting mindset by watching animals fight. I mean if these guys lose they may die. This may produce an even higher standard than the almighty UFC :rolleyes: . I don't choose to attack like a wolf as I lack certain physical hazards that come stock standard with your common "garden" variety Wolf.

However after watching a special on Wolves on TV a while back and seeing two of them tear a bear to pieces I think I'd like to adopt their fighting mindset. That is some impressive $hit. I would never have thought that 2 wolves could kill a healthy, full grown bear. But when it came to it they could, and did.

Hamstring them, and tear out the throat. Corresponds nicely to Leg Kick, and strike the throat, head, etc.

Works for me :D

[rubthebuddha]

if we wanted your background, we'd ask for it. if we wanted insults, we'd ask for those, too. and if we cared how much money you make, we'd ask to see a financial statement. and if we wanted to see if your as classy as you say you are, we might wonder if you can dig yourself out of random insult fare and address the topic at hand.

however, this is a martial arts forum, and the specific topic is grappling vs. striking in the animal kingdom. you can have all the degrees in the world in geoscience, but they don't mean a thing when someone's asking about martial arts, nor do they offer much in the way of animal biomechanics and hunting habits.

if you have a personal beef with knifefighter, take it up with him. if you have a personal beef with him being on this board, take it up with the moderators. but if you need a punching bag, go hit your kwoon, dojo or dojang -- those are better for getting your frustrations out on.

[rubthebuddha]

i miss rolls. he's a far better troll than this guy could hope to be, and rolls hasn't even matured into a proper troll yet.

[respectmankind]

"knifefighter, I dare say that I make more as a state water manager than you do in whatever sorry field you ended up in. Go blow yourself a$$hole."

Is this your higher class showing itself? Respect everyone, even if it is on the basic level of them being human.

[scotty1]

LOL@this thread.

Rolls BTW has just posted a thread on the UG saying that he's going to train in Brazil (I think). Don't quote me.

Striking to soften, grappling to finish, in the animal kingdom.
I think the reason for the grappling finish may be because they will go on to eat their opponent, otherwise I'm sure a creature could finish with a strike. If all they wanted to do was leave afterwards. But then that isn't the case with big cats is it?

So, they do what they feel is neccessary for the time, tactically, and their own preference. That would be a good end to the striking vs. grappling debate, no?

Jockwurst is a hornblower.:D

[Budokan]

Pelicans don't grapple and they're predators.

Sharks dont grapple and they're predators.

Need I go on through every phucking phylum?



:rolleyes:

An on another note, I absolutely loved this line from our new troll:

"my brother is one of the highest paid attorneys in the capital and on a first name basis with the Attorney Gen."

Hm. Is that the same sexually repressed Attorney Gen who had to spend $8K to "dress" a nude statue? And the same perennial loser who got beat by a dead man in the last election? Wow. Your brother must be proud to be associated with such a g*dd*mn neo-Nazi Sad Sack.










:rolleyes:

Sorry, rich boy, but you're not impressing any of us in the least. Go back to your polo and your Waterford crystal. Leave the martial arts to the adults.

[STUDD WILSON]

All suspect I.D.s as far as I'm concerned. I cant believe it! The one time in 4 months that Ive stopped by this sad sh!thole and theres another attempt by knifefukker and his ***g0t ***** clan to legitimize his ****erotic fanasies of rolling with dudes. This thread is a prime example of why I dont post here anymore regularly. For all the uninitiated, knifefukker has a habit of screwing you up the a$$ by using multiple tags to make it appear as if hes some mac daddy with a sh!tload of support. He used to fling insults left and right under the guise "jiu jitsu jedi" until several of us, jockwurst included, called him on it. Knifefighter is only here to live out his fantasies and the only real nhb matches his in is what occurs on this board. My last words on this.

[scotty1]

Oh ****, I'm Knifefighter?

LMFAO!!! 'Studd Wilson' indeed - YOU'RE KF, doublebluffing us!!

A$$hole. :rolleyes:

[Black Belt Jones 1]

I'm pretty neutral on this thread gone bad. I have to say that as a student of Zoology and Veteranary Science that, with some exception, I have to agree with Jockwursts ORIGINAL post regarding animal behavior. Obviously there is some bad blood between some of you all and Knifefighter. I'd say that most of us here could be considered somewhere in the "wanna-be" to serious practitioner category. And while we all would like to think were hot shots, and in our own minds we may be, in the grand sceme of things most of us are pretty average. Gin Sue Dog, I'm sure that knifefighter, if he is as experienced as he lets on, is probably a well rounded martial artist. But I am pretty sure that he and about all of us for that matter pale in comparison to the Likes of TiTo Ortiz or Bass Ruten. If he is as good then hes be wearing a world championshiop belt. Probably many of us have won local and maybe even regional titles but hey thats small time. But from some of your postings you coulnt tell different. In reality I'd say were all a bunch of average guys with 8 - 5 jobs that have an average to significant interest in the martial arts at varying degrees. Al the cursing, ego attacks and posturing that is giog on around here is ridiculus. This isnt romper room and I really hope rthat we can all grow up and act like adults. No wonder lots of people want stronger moderation.

[guohuen]

"Frank, I'm going to put in your file that you don't work and play well with others!"---Colonel Henry Blake, M.A.S.H. 4077

[Tigerstyle]

"To relate this analogy to real life: if I bit/tore someone's throat open, I'd let them escape - there is no need for me to hold him down, let him bleed to death then drag him up into a tree and eat him."

anton,
You drag people up trees and eat them? :eek: ;)

[Kaitain(UK)]

it puffs itself up with air to make itself look bigger and intimidating

[scotty1]

"what about the bullfrog?
it puffs itself up with air to make itself look bigger and intimidating"

Are you talking about the Animal Kingdom or most of the people on KFO?
:D

[rogue]

Where does this fit in the the equation? (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002050329,00.html)

[rubthebuddha]

all depends on what he would have done with the goat when he was done, had he not been caught.

[Yung Apprentice]

I agree with Jaguar Wong and Arioch7. They use both attacks and grapple. When two tigers fight each other, ot two lions fight each other, they smack each each other. They slap, and use there claws. Bears have been known to swipe at their prey when attacking.

[straight blast]

If you think that's bad, get a load of this. A guy in my old town got arrested for break and enter, and sexually assaulting a rocking horse!!!! And to make things worse, the fella in question is a very well known member of the public. It was all over the newspapers, and even appeared on TV's "Good News Week"!!!!

There were many jokes going around about splinters, I tell you!!!

[old jong]

You can make bears do anything you want! (http://www.bawcsa.org/gif/BearWC.gif)

;) These bears are not fighting...They are playing!;)
....Where's my bear?...;)

[Black Jack]

Knifefighter a troll?????

I don't know how someone could come up with that title for a person who has been nothing but straightforward in his posts, or at least the posts I have seen, Jockworst on the other hand seems to have some kind of mental condition.

Jui JitSu Jedi was a persona of Neal Cameron I believe, I may be wrong, but how you guys act towards almost anyone now who is not CMA related is getting a bit over the top.

:o

[GinSueDog]

First off I am not Knifefighter.

Second I have been reading this board for a few years now. I know a little something about a lot of the guys that post here. I have even had the chance to meet a few of them.

I have seen Knifefighter compete. I have seen him grapple with some of the best at my gym and hold his own where most guys can't. In fact my instructor used to train with Knifefighter at the Gracie Torrance school for a number of years.

I have seen few individuals his age compete in MMA matches against guys half there age and come out on top. He may not be a Royce or a Tito, but he is simply who he says he is.

If anything I have to respect an individual who puts there money where there mouth is and he has done just that not once but several times.


BlackJack,
As for JiuJitsuJedi, no he is not Neal. JiuJitsuJedi, Knifefighter, DragonRage and I were all originally from Mousel's forum and started posting here after Mousel placed a link to KFO.-ED

[Braden]

I don't think you guys should take Jockwurst too seriously. He doesn't have that many posts, and if you check his record, ALL of them still in the database have the same content as those in this thread.

As for the others reacting so emotionally... well, I dunno. Mass hysteria I guess. Sometimes I think knifefighter finds it amusing and that's half the reason he posts.

Directed to you guys... give knifefighter a break. I certainly disagree with him about alot of stuff, and I'm sure he thinks little of me, but at least he comes across as someone who's put in alot of time and effort into what he does; moreover, especially recently, he's been extraordinarily straight-forward and polite in his posts. You've got to respect that. He's most certainly not a con artist though; I've spoken with at least one person who's met him and speaks positively of the encounter.

But then again, maybe I'm knifefighter too. Who knows.

[rubthebuddha]

but i thought i was knifefighter. what gives?

anyhoo, it's been said by probably 20 people now, but i'll go ahead and echo them:

we strike, other animals strike. we grapple, other animals grapple. i'm dreading the day a coyote tries to pull a jujigotame on me. :cool:

[Arioch7]

Good, I get to have the last word! :D

The first thing on my list is Mr. Jockwurst... I wanted to be nice but you have got to be the lamest poster on here. If you were who you claim to be you would NOT be harping about how much money you made and what CLASS you are. Let alone your political connections.

Mr. Ashcroft would not put his resources towards defending YOU in the first place, he has other things on his mind. BEsides, Conservatives usually do not recruit other people to fight thier battles.

If your posts are true then you REALLY are a pompous ass and I would hate for your "friends" to see you bragging on a public forum about your "status". LOL!

Ok, responding to that troll took two seconds out of my life but I needed the typing practice, (Maybe I will have some servants type for me since this activity is beneath my "status".).

It seems Rogue and I are in agreement about tactical doctrine. I would also like to thank respectmankind for the AoD post, I loved it.

Knifefighter posted a decent thread if you ask me. I dont fully agree with the ORIGINAL author of his post but it is an interesting conversation. (Phucking Phylum... ROTFLMAO!!!)

On that note, I might add that the Komodo Dragons STRIKE thier prey once and let disease set in. They follow thier prey around for days, waiting for them to pass out. I wont describe to you the inevitable outcome but it is more gruesome then most of the kills you see on an animal documentary.

The point is they are relatively slow compared to thier prey and they wait for very long peiods of time for the prey to come close and then they zap them.

There are a million ways to hurt a living creature and an able strategist will at least have an IDEA how the different styles work.

On the human side, I have seen high level Hapkido practioners grab an arm and cause it to go numb from pressure point manipulation. He did it to me and my first thought was, "hell, I still have my other arm!", most people would be pretty shocked to have a limb paralyzed though.

Fights usually resolve themselves in three ways... First strike wins is the first. Striking and then going to the ground is the most common and striking,grappling and all out dirty fighting are the third. I have seen biting, gouging, etc. in person and they usually happen from the ground.

I am sure many of you have seen the same thing. The bottom line is that you should not over-specialize in any one area as that method of training can NOT adapt to a fluid battleground environment. I say this because I think the MIlitary analogy is correct. There is no "THIS IS BETTER!", there is only "Whatever it takes.".

MAn, I love to talk! ;)

[Mr. Nemo]

Christ, don't any of you guys remember? GinSueDog is obviously Knifefighter. Several other people are also obviously Knifefighter. In fact, Braden is obviously SifuAbel, if I remember correctly.

[Arioch7]

I am pretty sure Sifu Abel is Elvis... GOT YOU ELVIS!!!!! :D

[STUDD WILSON]

I dont know alot about my fellow poster jockwurst. However i dont think that anything in his original post warranted knifefighter getting all riled at him other than the fact that they have no great love for each other. I dont like kniffighter either. And as for the attouney general he might have been refferring to the one in the state he lives in (states have em too ya know) although he might have been refferring to Ashcroft - dont know anyway Ill give him the benefit of the doubt. If you will look in the forum archives youll find most of knifes posts to be things thrown on here to get a rise out of the kung fu purists. Im a BJJ practitioner and have had hardly any exposure to kung fu and I dont harrass the kung fu posters on this forum. Knife and I had it out a while back and he spent 3 or 4 days trying to prove that I was lying about my BJJ affiliation only to end up with egg on his face. The problem I have with him is this - if he is so god damm bad as he claims then why doesnt he rub shoulders with his own type? I mean he used to hang out here all hours of the day and night reponding to posts in the most childish manner possible(not representative of a middle - aged mature graduate business owner who beats people half his age and trains with the nations best).

[Sam Wiley]

****-measuring aside, this is a good thread.

Anyone ever considered that there are some very dangerous animals that might be considered "prey" and yet strike pretty devastatingly? Goats and rams are pretty brutal. And horses kick like, well, mules I guess, I don't know.

I've seen bears do both striking and grappling in video footage. Striking first, then closing the gap, and then grappling to win. But the strikes were just nasty.

Apes generally strike, and pretty hard at that. All dead arm strikes that I've seen. But I've enver seen them grapple before. Maybe they do, but I've never seen it anyway.

Big cats are generally ambush predators. And they strike hard first to disable, and then finish prey off. When I lived in the mountains in North Georgia, there was a small family of black panthers (the cats, not the humans) that roamed a small number of mountains, including the one I lived on. Don't give me any sh!t about how black panthers don't live in those parts, because I had seen them a couple of times before that night, and god******I know a panther from a Labrador Retriever. Anyway, I went jogging one night, and was followed by one of them. The mother and a couple of kittens I believe. I jogged out about a mile, and on the way back noticed movement in the bushes and heard something rustling there keeping pace. I finished my jog really paranoid and really scared, ran into the house, took off my ankle and wrist weights, and tried to catch my breath as I related to my family that I was being followed. Before I could finish a single sentence, there was this cry outside my window that just froze my blood. High-pitched and really loud. We ran for rifles, but by the time we got to the door, it was gone. The next morning, we found a small space where something large had been laying in the leaves, and found claw and paw prints on a clay hill from a very large cat. The freaky thing is, that the paw prints, of which there were several sizes, were between the beginning of my driveway and my house, meaning that the b!tch was at my house before I was, since she cut across the woods between the road and the house, and I followed the circuitous route along the driveway up to the door. I don't even want to know what could have happened if she had followed me before then, had discovered a pattern, and figured out where the door was so she could be there before me. Anyway, I don't jog with weights any more, nor do I jog at night.

[Mr. Nemo]

"Don't give me any sh!t about how black panthers don't live in those parts, because I had seen them a couple of times before that night, and god******I know a panther from a Labrador Retriever."

Not to give you sh!t, but it was at night, couldn't it have been a mountain lion that looked black because of the bad light?

[Sam Wiley]

Before that, the two sightings I had of the thing were in daylight, and the cat was black. One time, I almost mistook it for a neighbor's large black Lab. But the fact that Labs do not swat with their claws even when surrounded by a pack of dogs made me quickly realize I was looking at a cat. While it could have been another cat altogether, such as a normal mountain lion, (I'll say anything's possible there), the only reports for that mountain involved black cats. Besides that, my neighbor called us the next morning saying that he had heard the black panther calling the night before, and it was with him that we went looking for signs that the cat was there. For years, people on that mountain have been trying to get wildlife experts to listen to them that it was a black cat and not a normal mountain lion, but nobody will come out to search for them. Imagine that. Steve Irwin will travel all the way from Australia to look for common rattlesnakes that everybody knows are there in those mountains, but nobody will look for a rare animal with only a few sightings. Hell, Mark O'Shea will travel around Australia looking for the "Pilbra Cobra" but no one will look for black panthers in North Georgia.

Anyway, anything's possible. But as far as I know, the cat was black, and not just because of the lighting. But even if it was a normal mountain lion, it was freaky anyway.

[old jong]

There were seeings of big black cats in England also.Some were filmed.

[Knifefighter]

Studd Wilson = Jockworst. One and the same, I believe.

==================================================
"Knife and I had it out a while back and he spent 3 or 4 days trying
to prove that I was lying about my BJJ affiliation only to end up with egg on his face."
==================================================

Didn't we establish you had no BJJ training?


==================================================
…(I) have had hardly any exposure to kung fu ….
==================================================

But your major interest, according to your profile, is kung fu? Hmm…. Interesting.

==================================================
"I mean he used to hang out here all hours of the day
and night reponding to posts in the most childish manner possible(not representative of a
middle - aged mature graduate business owner who beats people half his age and trains
with the nations best).
==================================================

I don't watch TV, so this is what I do instead of watching "Survivor". Definitely not the best use of my time, but entertaining and at least this way I get to practice my typing skills.
BTW, I never said I was mature. Old but definitely not mature.