Rich Mooney's Chi Projection Gets Tested

[dwid]

I got this from a discussion in the Internal Arts Board.

Go to this webpage:

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/index.html

Go to the Concepts board and the Fa Jing/Kong Jing thread and there is a discussion of Mooney's double-blind experimental test of his chi projection abilities. For those of you who don't want to go to the trouble of reading the whole thing, here is the synopsis.

He failed, and failed big time. Only 2 of 16 subjects showed any effect at all, and one showed the opposite effect Mooney was trying for.

[Water Dragon]

Why did you post that? Now we're gonna have to wade through a 10,000 word essay on the topic of absolutely nothing!

[dwid]

Sorry WD, my life is empty, and this is how I try to make it seem fuller. I thought another Mooney related argument was what we all needed to brighten up our days.

[Qi dup]

Well I guess the fact that he allowed himself to be tested says something.

[dwid]

It says that he probably isn't aware of the fact that he doesn't possess the powers he claims to possess.

[Highlander]

So what is the point here?

Are they saying Mooney doesn't have Fa Jing/Kong Jing or that Fa Jing/Kong Jing doesn't exist?

Basically, this test proved nothing as a lack of proof is not proof. After all, with all our scientific knowledge and resources we have still not been able to prove the existance of aliens, big foot, Lockness monster, the Easter Bunny, or Eskimos. Yet there are too many unproven and unvarified accounts to dismiss them. (Except maybe Eskimos. Little people living in ice houses eating whale blubber???? Yea I'm gonna believe that one)

[dwid]

They never say Fa Jing doesn't exist, simply that Rich Mooney failed to demonstrate it. I'm pretty sure the easter bunny has fa jing, though, so if they could just find him, it would be like killing two birds with one stone.

[Tigerstyle]

There's no such thing as the Easter Bunny.

It's quite obvious that the eggs are left by Santa's reindeer during his Christmas deliveries. Due to the cold of winter, the eggs cannot develop fully until the warmer spring weather.

"What's in the eggs?" you ask? Simple: Elves (aka Santa's helpers). The "Easter Egg Hunt" is simply a way to control the elf population. The eggs that are not found by children hatch and the surviving elves make their way to the North Pole to begin the task of compiling a database of naughty/nice children and creating appropriate gifts accordingly.

This is a little known fact, but the life span of a Christmas elf is extremely short (about a year). This is due to the harsh climate of the North Pole, and that Santa works them to death making toys for all of the children in the world. This is why Mother Nature, to keep the elves from extinction, has the reindeer laying eggs every year.

So I guess science will never be able to prove the existence of chi powers, since they will never find the Easter Bunny. :)

[prana]

yeah the test merely shows Rich Mooney doesnt have the ability of Gong-Jing besides using his "demostrators" to show the effect.

It doesn't discount its existence.

I have had the experience of energy passing, once experienced, always a believer.

[Nexus]

When a man see's a beautiful women accross the street and an instant erection forms, that's Kong Jing at its finest moment.

[dwid]

that quote is sig-worthy

[diego]

was this the chiin2weakszzz..GUY

[prana]

Incidentally, Rich Mooney is giving a course on Gong-Jing...

Check http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9421

BTW, what is a "dojo" ? We dont have them here.... at least not that I know off

[red_fists]

Hi Prana.

"Dojo" is japanese for Kwoon or Dojang, same Characters, same meaning, different reading.

The "Bujinkan Goshin Budo Dojo" belongs to the Nin-Jutsu/Tai-Jutsu style that is taught by Masaaki Hatsumi.

In Japanese we call Qi-Gong "Ki-Ko", again same Characters but Japanese readings.

A lot of Japanese Arts are actually Chuan-Fa ("Kem-po" in Japanese), with
only sight modifications from the original System.

Hope this clears some up.

[sanchezero]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Sucka...

[David Jamieson]

red fists, i agree that the origin of many a japanese martial art is a chinese martial art, I also agree that Kempo is japanese for Chuan Fa which is Chinese for Fist law/method.

I do not agree that the modifications of Japanese arts are "slight".

Lessons in the Hara (Dan Tien) and Ki (Qi/Chi) are omitted in many styles of Karate and not dealt with to the depths they are explored in systems such as Shaolin based styles. Especially in the west.

Both have definitive value as martial systems. But imho, they are very different animals.

peace

[red_fists]

Hi Kung Lek.

Looks like you misread my Posts.

I said "a lot of Japanese Arts", I didn't say any Kara-Te(To-Te), Ju-Jutsu styles being called kempo.

Kempo is used in Japan to differentiate the arts that still acknowledge their Chinese roots.

"Shorinshi kempo" in Chinese would be called "Shao-lin", same system but the the founder mixed the shao-Lin and other Chuan Fa systems he learned.

I study "Tai Kyoku Kempo" a form of Tai Chi Chuan specific to Japan,as our founder also made changes to the systems he studied in Taipei.

But in Japan there are also "Tai Kyoku Ken"/"Shorinshi" Schools, which are the traditional unmodified Tai Chi/Shaolin styles.

Same counts for Hsing-Yi, Ba Gua and many other systems.

In my style we call the Dan Tien the Tan-Ten.

I know it gets confusing as some styles used to refer to themselves as "Kempo" and are now calling themselves "Kara-Te" or "Ju-Jutsu".

But yes, there are styles that hardly look at all like their Chinese parent styles and other like mine that are recognised as the same as their parent styles.

And that was told to me by some chinese Tai Chi instructors out here.

But what does the name count??

[dwid]

ttt for qimaster's convenience

[Grappling-Insanity]

Like we all didnt know anyway.

[Kuen]

I can't believe Mooney hasn't had one of his coniptions and threatened you guys yet. He must not be aware of the disturbance in the force you infidels have created.

:confused:

[Turiyan]

Originally posted by dwid
Go to the Concepts board and the Fa Jing/Kong Jing thread and there is a discussion of Mooney's double-blind experimental test of his chi projection abilities. For those of you who don't want to go to the trouble of reading the whole thing, here is the synopsis.

He failed, and failed big time. Only 2 of 16 subjects showed any effect at all, and one showed the opposite effect Mooney was trying for. [/B]

The chinese have a saying: "Open eyed blind man". What does any of this prove? Nothing. Double blind studys are flawed in a major way through testing something extraodinary for one main reason:

The subjects are "blind".

Ok, excuse that oversimplification. Those chi machines, no not those leg wiggly things, the ch projection machines. They were developed by testing the palm chakra's of supposed energy healers.

They found a 7-11cps pulse coming from their palms at varying intensitys. Much more than regular people. 7cps is close to the vibration of the earth which is 7.83hz..

Now harmful (ELF) EXTREMLY LOW FREQUENCYS are in the 50-60hz range. Regular speakers cant generate sounds much lower than that. And you can barely hear them.

Infrasonic sounds require special equipment to test and use. 7hz is WAY below the industry standard for ELF waves. WAY below.

At infrasonic ranges, sub-woofers, GOOD ones, just rumble. In fact, they know that a REAL sub-woofer could stop the heart at about 10hz at the right volume.

How can "normal people" be sensitive to something we already know is below the range of hearing?

What purpose does a test like this prove? Nothing much. Even breakers are known to use cheating just by nature of the fact that things go wrong, and if that brick/board doesnt break right, you end up looking like an idiot.

Something I suggest further research in:
White noise and the Ganzfeld effect.

"Passively listening to binaural beats may not spontaneously propel you into an altered state of consciousness. One’s subjective experience in response to binaural-beat stimulation may also be influenced by a number of mediating factors. For example, the willingness and ability of the listener to relax and focus attention may contribute to binaural-beat effectiveness in inducing state changes. "Ultradian rhythms in the nervous system are characterized by periodic changes in arousal and states of consciousness (Rossi, 1986 Shannahoff-Khalsa, 1991; Webb & Dube, 1981).

"These naturally occurring shifts may underlie the anecdotal reports of fluctuations in the effectiveness of binaural beats. External factors are also thought to play roles in mediating the effects of binaural beats" (Owens & Atwater, 1995). The perception of a binaural beat is, for example, said to be heightened by the addition of white noise to the carrier signal (Oster, 1973), so white noise is often used as background. "Music, relaxation exercises, guided imagery, and verbal suggestion have all been used to enhance the state-changing effects of the binaural beat"
(Owens & Atwater, 1995). Other practices such as humming, toning, breathing exercises, autogenic training, and/or
biofeedback can also be used to interrupt the homeostasis of resistant subjects (Tart, 1975).

source (http://brain.web-us.com/thescience.htm)

Scientific abstract: Hyper-sonic sounds increase perception of LF sounds (http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/83/6/3548)

Interesting that they used Bali Gamelan music as a medium.... But thats a different subject... Rainforests are known to generate hypersonic "white noise" in the ranges of 300khz. Amazing since the high range of most speakes and headphones is 21khz!!

This enviornment cannot, I repeat, cannot be recreated in a labratory, strip mall martial arts school or in the livingroom of some dorm room.

One really has to *immerse* themselves in the culture, language, music, food and enviornment of the people that created the expressions. Even if it is ecclectic, like indonesian culture is, just to use an example. This statement in light of the above abstracts, is an understatement.

The "carrier waves" may be a key part to manifestation... Those capable of supernormal abilitys are "rooted" or "grounded" in a way that normal people are not. Something people really need to consider. It helps to be born into it, know what I mean?

I really think people should post more useful information or lurk more.

"It is better to die with your knowlege than sow it on barren soil."

[Grappling-Insanity]

I think it proves that if you cant make a test subject preform the way you imply you can, it proves it wont work in a real fight.

[David]

Turiyan, if all you say is the truth of it (I'm not against it even though I couldn't finish the Empty Force book) then it is useless in MA. If you used that against someone who wasn't 'listening' for the effect then they wouldn't notice it.

(A radio tuned to 10Hz picks up thunderstorms around the world. The human body has a tremor of 10Hz.

[dwid]

Turiyan quote:
""The chinese have a saying: "Open eyed blind man". What does any of this prove? Nothing. Double blind studys are flawed in a major way through testing something extraodinary for one main reason: The subjects are "blind"."

The whole point of a double-blind protocol is to minimize the possibility of a subject or experimenters bias, unconscious or otherwise, from affecting the outcome or interpretation of an experiment.

If the subject needs to know that someone is trying to project qi into him or her in order for it to work, then its a pretty sorry technique, and is not meaningfully separable from hypnotic suggestion or sleight of hand. In other words, it's likely not anything supernatural.

Furthermore, using an ancient chinese saying to dispute the effectiveness of an experimentally validated scientific method is not exactly airtight logic.

[dwid]

American scientists have a saying too:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Mooney simply failed to provide this.