4 ounces overcoming 1000 Pounds.

[red_fists]

Round 2.

How do you interpret this statement??

I see it as meaning that you use minimal force to overcome an Opponent.

Yes, that will do a certain degree include li as well.

Looking forward to your answers.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Some leaf thoughts,

Was thinking why do I post here. Part of it is because I value others opinions of what my words mean to them. The other part is that I feel I have some thing to share that hopefully helps to either question something or help understanding

A kind of reflecting pool.
As with any pool the quality of the water is very important.
How dose talking about ones teacher or past teachers/state of TC today/ help with understanding our or your practice? Our pool seems to be very cloudy with these thoughts. Are we missing the real point?

"Round 2.

How do you interpret this statement??

I see it as meaning that you use minimal force to overcome an Opponent.

Yes, that will do a certain degree include li as well.

Looking forward to your answers."

:)

Very cool and real question back on track thanks?

I interpret this to mean using no force, the key word and idea is leading. You can only do this if you can listen to the force before it manifests itself. Timing and right position are critical. The idea of overcoming to me implies going against. I don’t seek to overcome your movement but to become part of it. It is by this way that I can add as little or as much (some trouble here) intent to your action.

/Note: I judge this in myself and refer to it as more of a clean action, a sloppy action to me would be one where I felt that I was adding or using a lot of my own force to the movement. Even if I manage to unbalance throw someone out I feel this is in the wrong direction that I want my skills to develop in./

When this happens the effect for both is that it is effortless, you feel like you didn’t use any type of strength s/he feels like they didn’t receive any force but are thrown out or down by their own force.

The 4oz to me refers to the fact that some contact must be kept and that it should be lite and changeable responding to the slightest change in the other this is called listening.

maybe the 4oz was a type of quntiative way of saying this much to the the question of how much. ;)

i see many make two big mistakes that others and I sometimes make. That would be double weightiness. In one instance the movement followed has no opposite movement inside it so it crashes or losses contact with the changes of the other. In the other instance it has to much force in it and is to slow to respond to change. On is mental and the other physical.

a good queston

[red_fists]

Hi Leaf.

Let me see if I understood you correctly.

The 4 oz represent the physical force that is needed to remain "sticking" to the Opponent.

Interesting, haven't thought about it this way.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Sticking, what dose this mean?

For me it is the ability to follow at the same time and direction of the others movement.

I think for some this implies a counter force to maintain the contact. i would veiw this as not to good but maybe a starting point.

i use a lite contact maintained with awareness instead of force is very changeable. need to be very relaxed (sung) / the whole body needs to be in the same state.

S/he stops moving I stop / s/he moves I move late but arrive first.

This means to me that it’s not the physical movement but the intent that you react to and with. By the time that their body has responded to the intent to move you have heard it and changed your inner state to eight empty or full depending on following or leading actually we can say one is the other but this is a little hard to get ones mind around I think.

Your physical movement has started late but your mental intent has already moved. Like standing on the edge of a blade it only takes a small amount to help you fall either way. the higher your level the less physcale force needed. even if its a very small amount.

There are many qualities and ideas involved in the ability to really do this and it takes much practice and work.

The important point that I keep is “use no force” and “relax”

the hard part is starting out, getting ride of anythoughts of overcomeing, fighting, protecting, any thing that implies going againts or useing force to ovecome the other.

this is how the leaf apporches and works with it. :)

[red_fists]

Hi Leaf.


Sticking, what dose this mean?

Exactly what you described.

No matter where my Opponents moves I move with him as if being "stuck" on him.

The Song of Ts'ai

What is the meaning of Ts'ai energy?
It is like the weight attached to the beam of a balance scale.
Give free play to the opponent's force
no matter how heavy or light,
you will know how heavy or light it is after weighing it.
To push or pull requires only four ounces,
one thousand pounds can also be balanced.
If you ask what the principle is,
the answer is the function of the lever.

We train Push Hand to develop
"sticky" energy

Some styles might call it different.

[Justa Man]

to me, this means that the angle means everything.
if you have the correct angle on someone, minimal force is required to dirsturb that person.
for example: a guy is in a bow and arrow stance. the guys force is directed forward. if you are perpendicular to him, then it takes a mere push to take him off balance.
this goes for arm and leg attacks too. you only need a slight angle to dissolve a person's attack, no matter how much force and strength they have.

[shaolinboxer]

"How do you interpret this statement?? "

Relax.

[Kaitain(UK)]

a few thoughts from me :)

The key to this for me is what isn't said but I infer from it
If you try and stand in way of 1000 pounds of force then you'll get flattened - yet with the addition of a minor force you gain complete control.

So the major component for me is not being in the way which can be achieved by diverting the energy so it goes around you

example:
guy throws a punch -
you can stick to the arm and spiral into it with ward-off and his energy will go right by you whilst you don't move OR
you can stick to it and use Pull and pull him around/past you OR
you can stick and use Pluck or Pull-DOwn and step past/into him
loads more but utilising the same principle

Something that I've worked on more recently in my own mind is far more Yang in idea. It's probably against some peoples' idea of Taiji but it sits firmly in my own concepts:

guy throws a punch
stick and divert with ward-off (as above) - continue hand on it's path to throat/face of opponent. The hand is using minimal force but it is using the force of my opponent to do the damage. So I blend with his attack and then put something in his path that he hits.
a better application might be using pull-down and putting my knee in the way of his face as he comes down (Golden ****erel) - his force has been controlled by me to change his path - I then put a wall in the way that utilises minimal force of itself but causes immense damage.

It's kind of like a small stone hitting your windscreen - if the car isn't moving then the glass probably won't crack - but if your doing 60 then it might crack the screen in a big way.

[red_fists]

Hi Kaitain.

I think both are valid under the Tai Chi principles.

I think too many People focus on the "Yin" and "soft" aspects these days.

IMO, But the Art needs to contain Yin and Yang and those need to be balanced.

I agree with you statement that by using a small force you gain control.
And one you gained control you can choose either a Yin or a yang response, depending on the sitaution or the force of the attack.

In my style we also practice fast and slow movements intermixed in the Form, as well as changing the stance height during the Form.

In 1 we go low and actually sit on our own heel with crossed knees.

Yep, I know some People will cringe at that. :rolleyes:

[Turiyan]

Originally posted by red_fists
Round 2.

How do you interpret this statement??

I see it as meaning that you use minimal force to overcome an Opponent.

Yes, that will do a certain degree include li as well.

Looking forward to your answers.

How many ounces in a catty or tael? How many cattys or taels to a pound?

[jun_erh]

" by their own force"

borrowing energy.

Robert Smith says in Chinese Boxing that Chen man CHing left this one statement out of th famous 13 chapters on Tai Chi:

Never use more than 4 ounces of force opponent and never let him use more than four ounces on you.

[taijiquan_student]

Usually the way we practice this principle in class is not to let the other person get more than 4 ounces on you. You deflect them catching their center when they put just those 4 ounces on you, and not letting them fall on you with a thousand pounds.
At least in my case, this isn't always the way it turns out.:D

[Esteban]

Hi,

had to look this up.

"How many ounces in a catty or tael? How many cattys or taels to a pound?"

One cattie = 1.33 pounds =21.28 ozs.

One liang (tael) 1.333 oz. avoir, or 37.78 grams

Four ounces = three taels; one pound equals three-quarters of a catty, or twelve taels.


Well, I guess now we know what the phrase means.

Respects,
Esteban

[Sum Guye]

FYI, the word is 'does'.... not 'dose' (a 'dose' is a measurment of medicine).

[Zantesuken]

i see this topic is pretty full buti guess i'll post since i'm bored.
my interpreation of 4 ouncers vs 1000 pounds is a term for efficiency. this basically means that if i fight someone normally then it's hard vs. hard. so if he's harder then obviously he wins. think of dragonball z power levels(i don't watch it now but yes i wathced it when it was in japan :p). i guess the the quote represents a notion of skill and not of strength. without skill how can you easily overcome 1000 pounds? if you were to increase the 4 ounces to 100 ounces to 100 pounds to 1000 pounds then you arepractising external arts.

[Nexus]

Yang T'ai chi works with circles and vectors. A simple answer to this question would be using only 4 ounces of your own force to find the circle needed to redirect the force, either into the earth or someplace else.

Changing the vector.

For those unsure of what a vector is:

"A vector is a mathematical device for describing a quantity that has a magnitude and a direction. That is, when we speak about velocity, we are not just talking about speed. Velocity is speed in a certain direction. So, the magnitude of the velocity vector might be 100 miles per hour and the direction of the velocity vector might be due south."

[Sam Wiley]

I always picture this statement being embodied by tossing a pebble into a pond. A small pebble will disturb the entire pond, there is no need to throw in a mountain.

For instance, using minimum force, you can deflect your opponent's punch and open him up for a strike from you. He can be turned to the side enough to open up your optimum angle with little force being used on your part, and he moves a great deal.